wingnutmn
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American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:30 pm

It appears an AA captain was arrested in MSP airport this am on suspicion of being over alcohol limit. He failed an initial test by police and was taken to a hospital for further testing.

Www.startribune.com

Wingnut
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NWA330nut
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American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:35 pm

Here is a more detailed link - which I am sure you were referring to.

http://www.startribune.com/local/185653732.html
 
wingnutmn
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American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:37 pm

Yes, that is what I was trying for. Thanks.

Wingnut
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rfields5421
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American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:41 pm

Just one note / correction.

According to the article it was an American Eagle pilot, not American Airlines.
 
71Zulu
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American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:02 pm

They initially got almost everything wrong in their haste to publish something,

First they said AA enroute Dallas and there is a mainline flight that was cancelled, AA1789.

But looks like this was the flight in question,

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/E...0/history/20130104/1210Z/KMSP/KLGA

so not cancelled at all, but about 3 hours late.
Clickable links only please!
 
tp1040
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:33 pm

Nothing like getting busted at 6:30 in the morning to being drunk. Must have been still drunk from the night before.

IDIOT!
 
 
cbphoto
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:32 pm

I saw the whole event unfold up by gate E15. Looks like their will be another Captain vacancy in the next bid to go out at Eagle. Sad way to ruin your career, yet alcoholism can get the best of everyone!
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
qqflyboy
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 7):
Sad way to ruin your career, yet alcoholism can get the best of everyone!

Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.
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peterjohns
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move,

Are you sure about that?
If he showed up at the Gate with a uniform on- I would very well call that "intent to fly"- I am however no lawyer.

I don´t intend to throw the book at him, but to call in sick at the Hotel would have been the right thing to do if you overcooked it the night before.
 
bioyuki
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:23 am

How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%? Considering this is commercial aviation where the pilot's livelihood is directly responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, shouldn't the limit be 0.00%?
Next flight: UA 35/NH 40/UA 876: SFO-KIX-HND-SFO
 
bioyuki
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:30 am

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.

Other articles stated that he was onboard, going through preflight checks when he was arrested so there is clearly intent to fly.
Next flight: UA 35/NH 40/UA 876: SFO-KIX-HND-SFO
 
btfarrwm
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:35 am

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%?
Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%?

Because the body makes metabolic byproducts that breath and blood tests cannot distinguish from alcohol. 0.04% is the amount that cannot be from something other than alcohol ingestion.
 
iliam
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 11):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%?
Quoting btfarrwm (Reply 12):
Because the body makes metabolic byproducts that breath and blood tests cannot distinguish from alcohol. 0.04% is the amount that cannot be from something other than alcohol ingestion.

You may also not operate a civil aircraft within 8 hours after consumption, as per FAR 91.17
 
Bellerophon
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:25 am

bioyuki

...shouldn't the limit be 0.00%?...

I agree with you that pilots should be completely free from imbibed alcohol before flight, however the problem with having 0.00% as a limit is that there are several valid reasons why a pilot might have a minute or trace level of alcohol in his or her blood, without ever having consumed a drop of alcohol.

One such reason, among several, is that the human body manufactures trace levels of alcohol naturally, with the level of trace alcohol varying from person to person.

Any jurisdiction that seeks to use zero as a limit for pilots is setting itself up for a lot of contested legal cases, with various valid and plausible reasons argued as to why the defendant had a trace level of alcohol in their blood, as well as a lot of detailed argument about the validity, tolerances and calibration of laboratory test equipment.

I would suggest that the UK/JAA/EU limit of 0.02% is actually a far more sensible legal limit, as, being so low, it is effectively a zero limit, but, being set well above the level at which the various defences regarding trace levels of alcohol could succeed, it catches those who have imbibed alcohol unwisely without criminalising those who are blameless.

It saves a lot of court time, in the UK at least, as most cases plead guilty, and perhaps, most importantly, allows the wider pilot fraternity to have confidence that any pilot convicted must have imbibed some alcohol unwisely, rather than just being the victim of circumstances beyond their control.

I hope the blood test on the pilot involved in this present case comes back negative, but if it does not, and he is shown to have been drinking alcohol unwisely, then I have no sympathy.

Best Regards

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Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
I agree with you that pilots should be completely free from imbibed alcohol before flight, however the problem with having 0.00% as a limit is that there are several valid reasons why a pilot might have a minute or trace level of alcohol in his or her blood, without ever having consumed a drop of alcohol.

I, for instance, have used mouthwash containing alcohol in the past. It's not going to show up in a blood test, obviously, but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.

-Mir
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cbphoto
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.

Yeah, it's one thing to be walking around the terminal in a uniform slightly drunk, but a totally different ball game to be sitting in the flight deck, doing departure checks drunk. If this had happened many years ago, I would maybe say he still has a chance that the union would fight for him to remain on property. However, in today's liability driven age, their is no way Eagle would take the risk of allowing him to return to duties!

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%? Considering this is commercial aviation where the pilot's livelihood is directly responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, shouldn't the limit be 0.00%?

Believe it or not, mouthwash can show up on a breathalyser test, which would cause problems if their was a 0.00% tolerance.
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rfields5421
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:34 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I, for instance, have used mouthwash containing alcohol in the past. It's not going to show up in a blood test, obviously, but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.

Yes it will.

Also almost any aftershave/ men's fragrance will also show up, and most women's perfumes will cause the air around the suspect's head to be strong enough to set off a breath test.

Another possibility is that the pilot might have consumed alcohol and stopped before the 8 hour time limit, however, for various medical reasons his body might not have metabolized the alcohol consumed down to a low enough level to be below the threshold.

It does happen with some people, and they never realize until they are 'caught' what is occurring with their body.

The reason the pilot was taken in for a blood test is not just for prosecution, but to also provide him with protection if the breathalyzer gave a false reading.

The key is breath test are not accurate for exact levels of alcohol, only providing a general indication of alcohol. A blood test is the most accurate.
 
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Acey559
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:21 am

Our limit is 12 hours at Eagle, not 8 as per 91.17; just an FYI.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 18):
Our limit is 12 hours at Eagle, not 8 as per 91.17; just an FYI.

Yes, most Part 121 carriers today are 12 hours in the flight operations manual.

For many years, Northwest prohibited alcohol use on ANY layover, regardless of duration between flights. Most violated rule in the company; in fact it led to the dismissal of a captain that a few years before successfully ditched his flaming DC-7C
at night, in a stormy open ocean with the only fatality a heart attack victim in one of the life rafts. From hero to zero!
He sued NWA and won, gaining a large settlement.
 
kl692
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:11 am

Maybe he watch Flight By Denzel Washington one two many times.

Great Job by the TSA officeers for spotting it.
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spacecadet
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:27 am

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
I would suggest that the UK/JAA/EU limit of 0.02% is actually a far more sensible legal limit, as, being so low, it is effectively a zero limit, but, being set well above the level at which the various defences regarding trace levels of alcohol could succeed

Two teaspoonfuls of cough medicine will put you at or over 0.02%.

0.04% makes more sense. One teaspoon is 1/3 of a tablespoon, and when I've had a bad cough I've taken a tablespoonful of cough medicine a bunch of times. That would put me at about 0.03% for a short time. I could see someone with a really bad cold (but not bad enough not to fly) taking two tablespoonfuls before flying.
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Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17):
Another possibility is that the pilot might have consumed alcohol and stopped before the 8 hour time limit, however, for various medical reasons his body might not have metabolized the alcohol consumed down to a low enough level to be below the threshold.

I'd tend to believe that if that were the case (and I certainly believe it could happen), the pilot wouldn't be displaying any outward signs of alcohol, and thus would only get caught by a random blood test, not by a passenger sensing something amiss and reporting it to police as was the case here. If you are showing visible signs of intoxication (or if someone smells alcohol on your breath), that's a sign that it's not just an issue of your metabolism moving too slowly.

-Mir
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AR385
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:02 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.

A good breathalyzer won´t. Those detect the alcohol excreted by your body through your lungs ie. by your respiration. Thus, mouth wash won´t set them off if you don´t drink it of course. Cheapo breathalyzers may, though. And there´s a variety of those contraptions in the market.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 21):
0.04% makes more sense. One teaspoon is 1/3 of a tablespoon, and when I've had a bad cough I've taken a tablespoonful of cough medicine a bunch of times.

Don´t they have codeine too? A popular cocktail among the junkies here was cough syrup with vodka.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:06 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
not by a passenger sensing something amiss and reporting it to police as was the case here.

ABC World News Tonight reported that it was a TSA agent who turned in the pilot. CNN is reporting the same thing.

Pilot arrested after security agent smells alcohol
By Aaron Cooper, CNN


Quote:
A pilot in Minnesota who was preparing to fly a commercial jet halfway across the country was arrested after a security agent smelled alcohol on him and he failed a preliminary breath test, airport police said Friday.

[SNIP]

Officers and a Transportation Security Administration agent "detected the odor of a consumed alcohol beverage as they passed by Kristiansen waiting to enter the elevator," according to a Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport Police Department report.

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Maverick623
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:27 am

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 8):
Not necessarily. Provided he never showed "intent to fly," which means allowing the aircraft to move, he can seek treatment and maintain his license. It's a long road, for sure, but depending on the circumstances it is not an automatic loss of license or employment.

There was an entire NW flight crew (Captain, FO, and FE) back in 1990 that were caught being drunk... after the flight. While the FO and FE never flew again (AFAIK), the captain spent time in prison, went through rehab, and (in a bold and controversial move by NW) was rehired, initially as a ground instructor.

He later retired as a 747 captain.


That being said, it IS still automatic termination and revocation of your flight certificates and medical licenses. It IS possible to get all three back, although the story above is the only "complete success" story I know of, and is highly improbable for this guy, if the blood test verifies the breathalyzer.
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sweair
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:28 am

Truck and bus drivers have an alcohol lock in Sweden, if they fail this the engine wont start. Maybe a mandatory breath test for pilots when they arrive at the airport could be a wise thing? How about FA´s? same limits?
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:39 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 26):
Truck and bus drivers have an alcohol lock in Sweden, if they fail this the engine wont start. Maybe a mandatory breath test for pilots when they arrive at the airport could be a wise thing?

Good idea perhaps in theory but I'm not sure it holds up for commercial aviation. If it isn't part of the aircraft then that's a huge expense in training and material for every single station. Then what's the policy for irregular ops? If you made it part of the aircraft to get around that then it's another piece of equipment that can break. I remember waiting out a 6 hour delay parked at the gate on a TWA L-1011 once PHX-STL due to the PA not working. They had to fly one in from LAX and have it installed before the plane could move. A lot of passengers were extremely unhappy about that but it is required equipment
here in the US as it can be life saving in an emergency. I'd hate to think how unhappy people would be now if they learned a delay that long was because the drunk flyer ignition lock wasn't functioning.
 
737tanker
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:47 pm

Quoting bioyuki (Reply 10):
How is the legal limit for a pilot 0.04%? Considering this is commercial aviation where the pilot's livelihood is directly responsible for the lives of hundreds of passengers, shouldn't the limit be 0.00%

The machines only have an accuracy to within 0.02%. So you can be 0.0% and the machine may show 0.2%

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
There was an entire NW flight crew (Captain, FO, and FE) back in 1990 that were caught being drunk... after the flight. While the FO and FE never flew again (AFAIK), the captain spent time in prison, went through rehab, and (in a bold and controversial move by NW) was rehired, initially as a ground instructor.

I had heard that the F/E did return to flying but for another airline where he eventually made captain.
 
lenbrazil
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:01 pm

Interesting coincidence: his name is of Danish/Norwegian/Icelandic origin. Most decendants of imigrants I know/know of have given names typical of their new homeland and his cerificate has an "ENGLISH PROFICIENT." limitation, which I think indicates he was foreign born. This happened at almost the same time a very drunk Icelandic man had to be restrained while flying to JFK.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:01 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
While the FO and FE never flew again (AFAIK),

The F/E finished his sentence, went through the process of earning his tickets back, flew cargo airplanes and is now a pilot with American, which raised my opinion of American! His name is Joseph Balzer and his book is called "Flying Drunk".
 
maxpower1954
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 29):
"ENGLISH PROFICIENT." limitation, which I think indicates he was foreign born.

No, under ICAO rules all U.S. pilot certificates now say "ENGLISH PROFICIENT" including this Florida born U.S. citizen
 
GRZ-AIR
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:03 pm

When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots? That would really improve passenger safety. Well we all know many (but not all) TSA guys and gals hate pilots and reporting them makes them feel good. Concerning this case it will be interesting to see if the blood tests align with the breath tests. Imagine having your picture and name thrown around worldwide news and then it turns out you had a scoop of cough syrup... Is "guilty until proven innocent" the new motto?
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lenbrazil
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 31):
Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 29):
"ENGLISH PROFICIENT." limitation, which I think indicates he was foreign born.

No, under ICAO rules all U.S. pilot certificates now say "ENGLISH PROFICIENT" including this Florida born U.S. citizen

OK I stand corrected, His certificate was issued 11/2/2010 did the rule apply back then? And unless there were two men named Kolbjorn Jarle Kristiansen born in 1964 he was born in Olso

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tu204
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:28 pm

In Russia you go through a quick medical medical examination prior to flying (blood pressure measurement, heart rate). Takes about two minutes. No breath test, but you are sitting less than half a meter away from a doctor...
I don't think it would take too much to implement a similar procedure elsewhere. Not only for detecting drunks, but even high blood pressure related conditions that are contrary to conducting a flight...heck some of the ones I've seen in Russia aren't even doctors but nurses on their last year of med school...
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bond007
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:35 pm

Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 14):
I would suggest that the UK/JAA/EU limit of 0.02% is actually a far more sensible legal limit

Actually the FAA limit for performing safety-related duties is 0.02% not 0.04%. The limit of 0.04% is used for violation actions against the employee, but if the person shows 0.02-0.04%, then they cannot perform safety-related duties until below 0.02%.

I enjoy a drink, and have been know to be 'over-served' on some occasions, so my personal limit is 24 hours between bottle and throttle ... regardless of what type of flying it is.


Jimbo
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jfklganyc
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 32):
When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots? That would really improve passenger safety. Well we all know many (but not all) TSA guys and gals hate pilots and reporting them makes them feel good.

You would have a lot of flights being cancelled.

Like every Eagle flight crew that had a min rest 8 hour layover
 
Cubsrule
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 32):
When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots?

Just MHO, but it seems to me that fatigue shows itself much differently from person to person. I know some guys (and gals) who wake up slowly and seem fatigued in the first half hour or our after getting out of bed regardless of how well rested they are. Many of them will perform just fine an hour later.
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Mir
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 24):
ABC World News Tonight reported that it was a TSA agent who turned in the pilot. CNN is reporting the same thing.

I had heard it was a passenger, but I might have read something incorrect - the point is that he was intoxicated enough that someone else noticed, and that doesn't really seem like a case of obeying the relevant bottle-to-throttle rule but one's body not metabolizing the alcohol fast enough.

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 32):
When will the TSA finally start reporting fatigued pilots? That would really improve passenger safety.

It would, and you'd see the rest rules revised pretty damn quick if that happened.

-Mir
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KaiGywer
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
I, for instance, have used mouthwash containing alcohol in the past. It's not going to show up in a blood test, obviously, but I've wondered whether a breath test would notice it.
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 16):
Believe it or not, mouthwash can show up on a breathalyser test, which would cause problems if their was a 0.00% tolerance.

Only for about 15 minutes after you take it. Hence, we make sure an arrestee has nothing in his/her mouth for 20 minutes prior to taking the intoxilyzer.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Passedv1
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:47 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 34):
In Russia you go through a quick medical medical examination prior to flying (blood pressure measurement, heart rate). Takes about two minutes. No breath test, but you are sitting less than half a meter away from a doctor...
I don't think it would take too much to implement a similar procedure elsewhere. Not only for detecting drunks, but even high blood pressure related conditions that are contrary to conducting a flight...heck some of the ones I've seen in Russia aren't even doctors but nurses on their last year of med school...

I would guess Eagle pilots make $20/drug test, which is probably about the same amount of time, times 15 days a month=300/month times 12 months=$3600/year times 3000 pilots at Eagle = 10.8 million dollars of added expenses per year for American Eagle.

I think technically legally, one could argue, that when he got up and put on his uniform he intended to fly. And maybe you might win. But I think, in order to bring charges, I think a prosecutor would at least want the pilot to sit in his seat and do some sort of duty directyly associated with the flight. Up until that point you have some defenses. Once you sit in that seat and start your setup, the noose is on pretty tight. Up until that point you always have "I was in uniform so the TSA wouldn't steal my toothpaste, my cell phone battery was dead so I had to go to the gate-to get the number- so I could in fact call out sick, I was headed down the jetbridge with my bags so that I could stow them in the overhead bins for my deadhead home because I was sick.

Don't know how much any judge/jury would buy any of that, but it certainly leaves a question of doubt, the jury would have to argue over how reasonable the doubt is.

It's surprising that nobody on the crew said anything. Very sad.
 
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b727fa
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:38 am

Quoting iliam (Reply 13):
You may also not operate a civil aircraft within 8 hours after consumption, as per FAR 91.17

Many airlines call that rule from time of "effect" of consumption...ie, 8 hrs after you're no longer "feeling" the effect...12 hrs is a safe guide for that. One airline where I flew used "effect of consumption" as the guideline.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
 
GRZ-AIR
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:12 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
Just MHO, but it seems to me that fatigue shows itself much differently from person to person. I know some guys (and gals) who wake up slowly and seem fatigued in the first half hour or our after getting out of bed regardless of how well rested they are. Many of them will perform just fine an hour later.

Fatigue (at least in human factors/aviation) is not about having had a one time good or bad sleep...it is about the effects of long time recurring sleep deprivation.

My post was supposed to highlight how everyone, thanks to modern media, goes crazy because a pilot was (undangerously low over the alcohol limit) and nobody cares about the fact that millions of people everyday sit in the back of airliners that are piloted by guys and gals who are seriously fatigued and "dead tired".

G.
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maxpower1954
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:41 pm

Quoting lenbrazil (Reply 33):
OK I stand corrected, His certificate was issued 11/2/2010 did the rule apply back then? And unless there were two men named Kolbjorn Jarle Kristiansen born in 1964 he was born in Olso

The rule has been in effect for at least three years. No license had the endorsement prior to that, regardless of background.
Every U.S. certificate holder got a new license with the endorsement, including those like flying for many years. I'm not sure if a test is involved for non-native English speakers.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 42):
Fatigue (at least in human factors/aviation) is not about having had a one time good or bad sleep...it is about the effects of long time recurring sleep deprivation.

I completely agree with this, and I would add that one night of bad or insufficient sleep is nothing compared to a number of nights of insufficient sleep over a week or a number of months. I will admit that there have been times when I have felt so fatigued I questioned whether or not I should have driven to work. I'm not a pilot, so it doesn't matter as much, but when I think about everyone around me on the highway, I know I probably should have called in sick. We probably all remember the Comair incident with a fatigued pilot as well as the Colgan Air crash in New York a number of years back, which were very likely a result of pilot fatigue. In my mind, a fatigued pilot is more dangerous than one that is coming off a night of light drinking and decent sleep, but because you can't measure fatigue as you would blood alcohol levels, it's always up to the pilot to make a subjective call to determine if they are in shape to fly.
 
GRZ-AIR
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 44):
it's always up to the pilot to make a subjective call to determine if they are in shape to fly.

Which is, in most cases, not an easy thing to decide:
Imagine this: You are abroad somewhere on a layover in a hotel room... you did a lot of night flights against your body clock the last few months and haven't had any vacation etc...to compensate your work hours. You lie in bed...and in 10 hours you are to start your duty. Thing is...where you are it is broad daylight and everybody else is roaming about in the hotel...house keeping is pushing carts around, people walking by your room and so forth. You can't sleep one second and are dead tired.... if you call in "fatigued" at this point to request more rest/sleeping time, you will delay or even cancel the flight and cost your company a few hundred thousand dollars (rebook/accommodate/compensate passengers/cargo/airport fees etc..).

How well would you sleep if you know you just wasted 300.000+ bucks?

Take the alcohol violation discussed in this thread seriously, but don't blow it out of proportion. Let's use the latter's freed up energy to talk about tired crews. It would probably cost a few cents more to buy a ticket but then you'd always (!) have a well rested crew.

G.
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Cubsrule
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 42):
Fatigue (at least in human factors/aviation) is not about having had a one time good or bad sleep...it is about the effects of long time recurring sleep deprivation.

Certainly not, but you haven't addressed the substance of my post. Doesn't fatigue show itself a lot differently person to person? There's no blood test for fatigue.
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lightsaber
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:33 pm

Wow... enough that TSA could smell the drink. This doesn't sound like a case of oops, but rather abuse.

Quoting bond007 (Reply 35):
I enjoy a drink, and have been know to be 'over-served' on some occasions, so my personal limit is 24 hours between bottle and throttle ... regardless of what type of flying it is.

   24 hours is a lot of time. A man, on average, process one serving ever 1.25 hours. If the pilot observed the 'bottle to throttle rule,' that is 19+ drinks an average man would have processed out of the system!

Most good pilots use the 24 hour rule, but will apply the 8 hour rule if they only have one or two drinks. In 8 hours, a male should process 6+ drinks out of the system.

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
the point is that he was intoxicated enough that someone else noticed, and that doesn't really seem like a case of obeying the relevant bottle-to-throttle rule but one's body not metabolizing the alcohol fast enough.

It seems like a case of not obeying the bottle to throttle rule. One doesn't smell of booze 8 hours later when its innocent.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
AR385
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting GRZ-AIR (Reply 42):
because a pilot was (undangerously low over the alcohol limit)

Sorry, but that doesn´t really exist. Please have two glasses of wine and then go ahead and do some cognitive tests. You´ll be surprised. What may be "undangerously low" on a desk job is not on many other professions, particularly on piloting.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: American Eagle Pilot Arrested In MSP For Alcohol Intoxication

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 48):
Please have two glasses of wine and then go ahead and do some cognitive tests. You´ll be surprised. What may be "undangerously low" on a desk job is not on many other professions, particularly on piloting.

  

It takes at least two full drinks to get a man of my size above 0.04%. I can't usually tell a difference in my own capability after one drink, but I very much can after two. There is no way I would feel safe piloting an aircraft within an hour or two after having two full drinks.

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