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chrisnh
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Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:35 pm

There have been an awful lot of rumors circulating about the next new international service at Boston's Logan Airport. Some people say 'China' while others say 'Middle East.' Sadly, no one is saying that new service will come from a U.S.-based carrier.

So, the ones I've heard mentioned most (in no particular order):
--Turkish
--Emirates
--Qatar
--China (?)
--Hainan (I think they either gave up or were never really serious to begin with)

Also interesting is that there seems to be NO talk of service to South America. New England is very culturally diverse, with (it would seem) a ready-made population base to support service to that continent.

[Edited 2013-01-04 07:36:32]
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:46 pm

South America surprises me also. Living in Boston, I can tell you it has a very large Brazilian and Colombian population. Is it on the same level as Miami or NYC - no, but it's rather large. Would think a BOS-BOG on a 738/757 would work or a 787 on BOS-GIG/GRU?

My guess is going to be the Middle East - TK, QR, EK

[Edited 2013-01-04 09:50:29]
 
Malayil
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:01 pm

Its going to be Emirates.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:14 pm

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 1):
South America surprises me also. Living in Boston, I can tell you it has a very large Brazilian and Colombian population. Is it on the same level as Miami or NYC - no, but it's rather large. Would think a BOS-BOG on a 738/757 would work or a 787 on BOS-GIG/GRU?

There is nothing surprising about it.

NYC and MIA/MCO have tons of Latin American tourists and more business links... BOS does not. On top of whatever VFR they might have. And BOS for North-South connections does not work, since anyone flying from BOS can easily connect in JFK, MIA, MCO, CLT, IAD, DFW... to Brazil or anywhere else in LATAM.

I could only see a connection to a hub...the likes of a Copa PTY-BOS with a B737 so passengers can connect to somewhere else. Yet BOS is more Brazilian/Portuguese than Spanish, so even for VFR, Copa/PTY might not be a good idea.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting Malayil (Reply 2):
Its going to be Emirates.

  

Of all the rumors, this seems to be the one that most people are certain about.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:28 pm

BOS-GRU on a 787 *might* work, but who would fly it? UA isn't going to put a 787 in BOS for that route. NYC/Florida gave a stronger local area market and serve almost all connections better or as well as BOS would.

Quoting Malayil (Reply 2):

I agree. It will be EK to DXB.

Middle East, for those of you who don't know what DXB or EK are.  
 
MAH4546
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:20 pm

Emirates is coming to Boston soon.

BOS-Brazil is a good sized market - to CNF, GRU and GIG - but yield sucks. The 787 doesn't fix that situation. It's like BOS-Portugal, which, while served, is not served by a regular scheduled airline and is very underserved relative to demand.

New England lacks business ties to the entire Latin America region and is poorly located geographically to support service. We've already seen AeroMexico and TACA come and quickly leave.
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jfk777
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:30 pm

Middle East, Emirates has only so many quality American cities left it can fly to. Boston is one or two on that list.
 
airbazar
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):
BOS-Brazil is a good sized market - to CNF, GRU and GIG - but yield sucks. The 787 doesn't fix that situation. It's like BOS-Portugal, which, while served, is not served by a regular scheduled airline and is very underserved relative to demand.

Well, BOS-LIS is served by a regularly scheduled airline: SATA. They even code-share with US and TP. I've been on it too  
But I agree that the yields are low and with so much competition from BOS to Europe and S.America, I just don't see any new routes popping up. Brazil seems especially difficult because Brazilians don't feel attracted to visit cold, northern Boston, and it's just too far of a vacation destination for New Englanders. When you think about it, Brazil is just as far as Hawaii.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
Sadly, no one is saying that new service will come from a U.S.-based carrier.

Not a surprise. Longhaul thrives with connections.

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 4):
Quoting Malayil (Reply 2):
Its going to be Emirates.

  

Of all the rumors, this seems to be the one that most people are certain about.

That would be my best guess.

Lightsaber
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MAH4546
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:09 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 8):
Well, BOS-LIS is served by a regularly scheduled airline: SATA. They even code-share with US and TP. I've been on it too

All SATA flights to Boston are public charter.
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SCQ83
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 8):
Well, BOS-LIS is served by a regularly scheduled airline: SATA. They even code-share with US and TP.


Served by an unknown non-aligned airline such as SATA via PDL (Azores) 2 times a week. Hardly a service anyone would consider when flying to Europe. This is like saying that Boston is connected to Africa because of the TACV flight... factually it is, but in practice?
 
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Is TK to BOS and SFO confirmed? I thiught it was still just a wish list destination.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
Sadly, no one is saying that new service will come from a U.S.-based carrier.

Keep your fingers crossed that B6 tries a Central American leisure/VFR route ex: BOS-SJO at a 2-4x weekly frequency.

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
--Hainan (I think they either gave up or were never really serious to begin with)

Hainan sold or transferred the route Authority BOS-PEK to China Eastern whose largest hub is PVG and the bigger market from BOS. I think I have read that China-U.S. may become open skies soon. It would be interesting to see who jumps in then if anyone. Could CA possibly start BOS-PEK? Does anyone have overall BOS-China traffic? I'm only able to get top three markets PEK/PVG/CAN (There's also HKG but I'm leaving that one out).
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:57 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 3):
I could only see a connection to a hub...the likes of a Copa PTY-BOS with a B737 so passengers can connect to somewhere else. Yet BOS is more Brazilian/Portuguese than Spanish, so even for VFR, Copa/PTY might not be a good idea.

If timed properly, a CM B737-700 BOS-PTY-BOS could work.
CM already flies to several Brazilian cities out of its hubs and if those Brazilian cities help CM to fly thrice daily to PUJ and 4 times per day to both CUN and MCO I can't see why Brazilians wouldn't consider CM when flying between South America and BOS.
Even at once per day, people in New England might like to fly international between BOS and Latin America / Caribbean and avoid connections in EWR, MIA, ATL or IAH.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 13):

Is TK to BOS and SFO confirmed? I thiught it was still just a wish list destination.

]

TK (and QR) to BOS are nothing more than a wish list. But EK, I'm hearing, is the real deal.
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UA787DEN
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 13):

TK tells the universe their expansion plans years ahead of time. They probably seriously will fly to BOS in a few years (at least that is their plan, but who knows.) But EK will beat them, and possibly hurt TK service.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 17):
TK tells the universe their expansion plans years ahead of time. They probably seriously will fly to BOS in a few years (at least that is their plan, but who knows.) But EK will beat them, and possibly hurt TK service.

They are required to by Turkish Law to announce when they start analyzing/researching a new route.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:50 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 18):

True. But probably doesn't help the TK profit. I bet we will see EK in BOS in late this year (2013)
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 18):
They are required to by Turkish Law to announce when they start analyzing/researching a new route.

To the general public, or to the Turkish authorities in a source that usually ends up getting leaked to the public?  

I've heard that EK was also going to start service to MIA, how serious is that?

Also, JL may be eating up a good part of the BOS-China market...
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 20):

I've heard from multiple creditable sources that BOS is the next EK American Destination. The EK North America thread reached a general consensus that BOS and then MIA would be next.
 
EddieDude
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):
We've already seen AeroMexico and TACA come and quickly leave.

Could AM perhaps return to BOS with better schedules and with codeshares with DL and the European SkyTeam carriers serving BOS?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:06 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 20):
Also, JL may be eating up a good part of the BOS-China market...

Play around with connections to Chinese cities from BOS via NRT on various dates: you may not like what you see unless you do not mind a stopover in Tokyo.

http://www.ar.jal.com/arl/en/flight_planning/schedule/

JL's BOS-NRT flight does connect well with other major Japanese cities plus SIN, HKG, BKK, SGN, HAN, ICN, PUS
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
N766UA
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:09 am

Hasn't Qatar already announced BOS?
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22):

Could AM perhaps return to BOS with better schedules and with codeshares with DL and the European SkyTeam carriers serving BOS?

It was a codeshare with DL and here are the times of the previous flight when I flew it.

Flight: Delta 8042
Depart: 8:30 AM (BOS)
Arrive: 1:30 PM (MEX)

Flight: Delta 8043
Depart: 4:30 PM (MEX)
Arrive: 10:20 PM (BOS)

AM would be hard pressed to make the flight work for European connections since you would negate any connections offered by MEX.


EXAMPLE

Depart 8:00 PM (BOS)
Arrive 1:00 AM (MEX)

Depart 12:00 PM (MEX)
Arrive 5:50 PM (BOS)

The European Skyteam connections would be only CDG, LHR, FCO, and AMS as well. These flights are spread apart at BOS too so it may not be possible to connect to all 4. The flight also overflies a good portion of the U.S. so DL connections are pointless when you can go through ATL. The flight can also be considered a transcon due to its length too and its probably too thin traffic wise.

As anecdotal information, I flew the route Saturday-Saturday and many travellers such as myself were connecting onto flights towards Pacific Mexican Resorts: ACA (when it was a bit safer), PVR, ZIH, SJD. Connecting at MEX was a complete disaster (bad signage, slow immigration, overcrowded bottlenecks) and a few people missed connections. I vowed never to connect their again.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
justinlee
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 14):
Hainan sold or transferred the route Authority BOS-PEK to China Eastern whose largest hub is PVG and the bigger market from BOS. I think I have read that China-U.S. may become open skies soon. It would be interesting to see who jumps in then if anyone. Could CA possibly start BOS-PEK? Does anyone have overall BOS-China traffic? I'm only able to get top three markets PEK/PVG/CAN (There's also HKG but I'm leaving that one out).

I think the traffic right is not an issue in the BOS's China route. The most important thing is when the chinese carriers can get 787. Chinese carriers have no proper plane to fly this route now. China Easter: no 787 order now. Air China: their 787-900 will not be delivered in the near future. China Southern: their base CAN can't support such a route. The only possible one is Hainan.
 
clrd4t8koff
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:36 pm

If EK is the next new carrier, what is the likely aircraft to open the route? 77L, 773ER?
 
SCQ83
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:20 pm

For China, I would bet on Air China or Hainan to PEK.

Air China being a public airline seems to open routes for political/economical reasons... i.e. they just want to connect China with "X" country or city (as a sample, they started MAD if they were granted 5th freedom rights to GRU... so China now has a connection to both Spain and Brazil in its own airline). Maybe the Chinese government wants to have a direct connection from China to BOS (research centers, universities, etc.). So they still serve cities such as ATH or LGW (duplicated with LHR).

Hainan somehow also serves "niche" markets that noone else serves, such as BRU or BER (they even served BUD!), BOS could fit here.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sat Jan 05, 2013 7:24 pm

Quoting justinlee (Reply 26):
I think the traffic right is not an issue in the BOS's China route. The most important thing is when the chinese carriers can get 787. Chinese carriers have no proper plane to fly this route now. China Easter: no 787 order now. Air China: their 787-900 will not be delivered in the near future. China Southern: their base CAN can't support such a route. The only possible one is Hainan.

The 787 is not the magic wand for BOS-China or any long haul service that is not yet served. In the past 8 years BOS-PVG increased 186% and BOS-PEK increased 90%. If trends are even 50% of recent growth a 777 will be able to serve the route someday. Having a variety of new one-stops should stimulate secondary markets as well. EK will prove this when they start BOS-DXB with a 777.


Also just checked BOS web site, for October 2012 BOS-NRT-BOS had loads of 93.2% (assuming 787 was flown on all flights)
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:06 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 10):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 8):
Well, BOS-LIS is served by a regularly scheduled airline: SATA. They even code-share with US and TP. I've been on it too

All SATA flights to Boston are public charter.

Are you sure about that? I didn't think public charters could display fares/schedules in GDS, codeshare, or sell connections involving other carriers, all of which SATA does on their PDL-BOS route.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 29):
The 787 is not the magic wand for BOS-China or any long haul service that is not yet served

I actually think it is. The 787 allowed JAL to break into the market profitably, and that's what it's all about...profit. Any route can evolve to a bigger plane, and that's what you'd expect, but the trick is to find a plane that can fly small loads long distances and make money at it.
 
SurfandSnow
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:05 am

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
There have been an awful lot of rumors circulating about the next new international service at Boston's Logan Airport. Some people say 'China' while others say 'Middle East.'

I haven't heard anything about BOS-China coming to fruition anytime soon, and certainly not before some kind of BOS service by a Middle Eastern carrier.

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
Sadly, no one is saying that new service will come from a U.S.-based carrier.

Why would it? The legacies have largely consolidated international service - especially long haul - into their strongest primary hubs that offer the best FF bases and network connectivity.

For AA, that's the cornerstones of DFW/LAX/MIA/NYC/ORD. 10-15 years ago, I'd have called you crazy if you claimed AA would someday drop all BOS Eagle flights, BOS-SJU, BOS-SFO, and/or BOS-LHR. Low and behold, that day has come. AA had been losing ground in BOS for years, I suppose the cornerstone strategy was the final nail in the coffin for what was once a major focus city and international gateway. Going forward it appears BOS will just be another domestic spoke with service to the 5 cornerstone hubs.

For DL, that's the ATL/DTW/MSP/NYC/SLC hubs, along with strategic international gateways at LAX and SEA. Of all the legacies, DL appears to have been most successful at holding their ground in BOS, with transatlantic services intact (thanks to the AF/KL JV, of course) and even an array of Delta Connection services to the Midwest and South. If any U.S. legacy was to add new international service from BOS, it would be DL. But with existing services to LHR, CDG, AMS, and YYZ, I can't see what else DL could possibly want to add from BOS that isn't already well served by another airline or easily accessible through a DL or partner hub.

For UA, that's EWR/DEN/IAD/IAH/LAX/ORD/SFO. PMUA cut their BOS-LHR flight - a holdover from the PanAm era - years ago. BOS has been just another domestic spoke (as it was for PMCO) ever since, and I can't imagine why that will ever change in the future.

For US, that's the CLT/PHL/PHX hubs and major DCA focus city. They recently slashed services at BOS (along with LGA, PIT, LAS, etc.) to focus on the four aforementioned markets. However, a few international routes still remain to Caribbean/Latin American hotspots. I wonder if this is merely an aircraft utilization tool for otherwise idle shuttle aircraft, though - if US does sell the Shuttle operation to B6 or WN, I bet these routes would end as a result. I certainly wouldn't look for US to add any new international services from BOS, that's for sure.

Now, that is not to see we won't see any new international service from BOS by a U.S. carrier. B6 continues to grow its Caribbean/Latin American network, and surely BOS can gain additional new international service from them as a result. If you want to see a U.S. carrier add international from BOS, they are surely your best bet.

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
So, the ones I've heard mentioned most (in no particular order):
--Turkish
--Emirates
--Qatar

TK and QR has officially stated they will start BOS, but it sounds like EK might beat them to the punch. I don't think BOS could support all 3 in the short term, though. One or two would probably delay their entry to BOS for at least a few years... So it will be interesting to see who gets there first!

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
--China (?)
--Hainan (I think they either gave up or were never really serious to begin with)

I haven't heard any serious talk about BOS-China for a while. Hainan came close to launching HNL-China service, only to back out at the last minute. They never got nearly as far with BOS-China. I guess SEA (and YYZ) should count their blessings that the airline actually followed through with their intentions! I believe the airline blamed visa policies as their official reasoning, and IMO that is valid. Americans can't get visas on arrival, and Chinese have to jump through hoops to get an American visa.

The next transpacific service from BOS would probably be a resumption of KE - nonstop in both directions this time around. ICN would offer excellent access to cities throughout China and other Asian countries (including Japan, where secondary markets are often much easier to reach via ICN than NRT), with a visa-free flow of O&D pax to boot.

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
Also interesting is that there seems to be NO talk of service to South America. New England is very culturally diverse, with (it would seem) a ready-made population base to support service to that continent.

This ready-made population base you speak of can easily get to South America via JFK, EWR, ATL, MIA, and in some cases IAD. I suppose even YYZ, ORD, DTW, DFW, and IAH could be options if the price is right. There are not strong enough business and/or VFR ties between BOS and anywhere in South America to justify a nonstop flight, and there is not much connectivity beyond BOS. Even LAX is a huge challenge from South America, in terms of yields anyway. Perhaps when Brazilians and/or other South Americans get visa free access to the U.S., and when Americans can easily obtain Brazilian visas and/or not pay high reciprocity fees to the likes of Argentina and Chile, traffic flows will increase to the point where BOS-South America could happen. Hey, there's always those rumors of B6 getting some A330s or A350s too  .
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UA787DEN
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:15 am

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 32):

I agree with all of this, but one question: How long did you spend writing that?

I think EK will beat QR and TK. TK looks like it will be last to the party, and I doubt BOS could support all 3.

As far as China and South America...The only airlines that might serve it have better places to go, and I just don't see BOS-China or SA anytime soon.

I think Middle East and Caribbean will see expansion, and maybe a few more European carriers expanding.

Maybe RyanAtlantic  
 
MAH4546
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:39 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
Are you sure about that? I didn't think public charters could display fares/schedules in GDS, codeshare, or sell connections involving other carriers, all of which SATA does on their PDL-BOS route.

Absolutely sure. Public charter operated by SATA on behalf of Azores Express. Public charters can display and publish fares.

http://www.sata.pt/en/sata/azores-express-en
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alphaomega
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:55 pm

Quoting Malayil (Reply 2):
Its going to be Emirates.

Haha - sorry guys, but no. QR and TK are the only middle eastern carriers that have somewhat of a plan beyond rumor so far, and have actually announced so. Now, can EK certainly announce BOS tomorrow and be flying there in a month? Sure...but I don't see it.

Both Aeromexico and Copa applied for landing rights and were denied, so I would bet seeing them working out their schedules before any other new carrier gets in.

If all of the rumors I've heard lately come true, then you will see QR, TK, AM, CM, and KE serving BOS by the end of the year. BOS may also see the LH 747-8 this summer. LAN and TACA were also rumors but I think have died out.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 32):
AA had been losing ground in BOS for years,

In the Crandall days, AA was a competitively violent airline. Years later, thoroughly weakened and unable to fight, AA got sand kicked in its face by JetBlue. In those violent days of AAs existence, they would have mounted a fight. But today's AA is a much weakened entity, groveling for a dance partner any way it can.



[Edited 2013-01-06 06:35:17]
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 33):
I think EK will beat QR and TK. TK looks like it will be last to the party, and I doubt BOS could support all 3.

I agree with you on EK but I think TK beats QR since they can provide a tremendous amount of new one-stop opportunities from BOS.

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 33):
As far as China and South America...The only airlines that might serve it have better places to go, and I just don't see BOS-China or SA anytime soon.

I thought this myself until I looked at all the possible connections made from the JL flight and was pretty disappointed. You can only connect to PEK and PVG going to Asia. Going back to BOS 1-stop involves an overnight at NRT. They are also a schedule change away of making BOS-NRT-ICN really tight as well. In my opinion, JL left the door open for another Asian Carrier and a Chinese carrier may not be ambitious enough so I will quote what surfandsnow said in a previous post.

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 32):
The next transpacific service from BOS would probably be a resumption of KE - nonstop in both directions this time around. ICN would offer excellent access to cities throughout China and other Asian countries (including Japan, where secondary markets are often much easier to reach via ICN than NRT), with a visa-free flow of O&D pax to boot.

KE would have DL to offer connections with as well as all of the interlines (especially B6).

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 34):
Absolutely sure. Public charter operated by SATA on behalf of Azores Express. Public charters can display and publish fares.

http://www.sata.pt/en/sata/azores-express-en

Besides US, they also interline with VX from SFO and LAX and it is bookable on SATA's website.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 35):
Both Aeromexico and Copa applied for landing rights and were denied, so I would bet seeing them working out their schedules before any other new carrier gets in.

Denied by who? DOT? Massport? Massport would give Copa incentives to start BOS-PTY
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
SCQ83
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting UA787DEN (Reply 33):
I think EK will beat QR and TK. TK looks like it will be last to the party, and I doubt BOS could support all 3.
Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 37):
I agree with you on EK but I think TK beats QR since they can provide a tremendous amount of new one-stop opportunities from BOS.

I also think that coming EK first, TK makes more sense as a second one.

EK and TK networks are largely complementary (TK is also suitable for Turkey, Levant, Russia, Eastern Europe, Central Asia) whilst QR and EK serve exactly the same markets geographically. Not to mention that I am sure DXB and IST have a much larger O&D from BOS or anywhere else in the US than DOH. So EK (which has a much stronger brand awareness) coming with a daily flight, they might keep QR away for a while. TK? Not much IMO.

And TK has been expanding so aggressively... how many destinations have they added in 2012 only? 20, 30?

[Edited 2013-01-06 07:59:35]
 
alphaomega
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 37):
Denied by who? DOT? Massport? Massport would give Copa incentives to start BOS-PTY

You don't apply for landing rights with Massport, and yes they would give them incentives. Airlines must have approved landing rights from CBP for all international arrivals, and CBP denied both due to their schedule. The issue is with CBP not staffing for the flights during the overnight hours which is when CM and AM would be operating. Trivial problem to have when trying to court new service, but something Massport is currently fighting.
 
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 36):
But today's AA is a much weakened entity, groveling for a dance partner any way it can.

So an airline that is constantly leading every other airline in revenue growth this year is a weakened entity? And you do realize AA is not actively seeking a merger partner, right?

I realize you are bitter about AA and BOS, but that doesn't change reality.
a.
 
UA787DEN
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:17 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 38):
Quoting adamh8297 (Reply 37):

I agree TK would make more sense than QR 2nd. But I'm not sure they will make it in time. But of course, QR might try to jump in and take a different market instead of BOS if/when EK beats them.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 40):

AA would indeed prefer to go alone. Though for the past couple of years, AA has been a bit of a shadow of its former self. They held on longer than anyone else, but currently aren't in the best shape, and haven't been for a few years. That said, when they come out of BK (hopefully alone) than I think we will see them back at the front of the pack, especially with all the new 737/320s. By the way, Revenue growth this year counts for 5.5 days.  
 
Viscount724
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 34):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
Are you sure about that? I didn't think public charters could display fares/schedules in GDS, codeshare, or sell connections involving other carriers, all of which SATA does on their PDL-BOS route.

Absolutely sure. Public charter operated by SATA on behalf of Azores Express. Public charters can display and publish fares.

http://www.sata.pt/en/sata/azores-ex...ss-en

The way the first paragaph of that link is worded makes it sound like the Azores Express charters are separate from the SATA International flights. How can charters codeshare with scheduled carriers? Where is that covered in DOT rules? I can't see how that could be handled in accounting systems etc.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:24 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 15):
If timed properly, a CM B737-700 BOS-PTY-BOS could work.
CM already flies to several Brazilian cities out of its hubs and if those Brazilian cities help CM to fly thrice daily to PUJ and 4 times per day to both CUN and MCO I can't see why Brazilians wouldn't consider CM when flying between South America and BOS.
Even at once per day, people in New England might like to fly international between BOS and Latin America / Caribbean and avoid connections in EWR, MIA, ATL or IAH.

Good prediction   


Unofficial: Copa Airlines (CM) To BOS
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
BOStonsox
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:23 am

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 1):
South America surprises me also. Living in Boston, I can tell you it has a very large Brazilian and Colombian population. Is it on the same level as Miami or NYC - no, but it's rather large. Would think a BOS-BOG on a 738/757 would work or a 787 on BOS-GIG/GRU?

How big is BOS-BOG? That would be a route B6 would start with an A320 most likely, but it might be pushing it (it's 100 miles shorter than BOS-SFO, but BOG may have elevation issues, which may explain why they don't fly JFK-BOG).

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):
BOS-Brazil is a good sized market - to CNF, GRU and GIG - but yield sucks.
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 32):
There are not strong enough business and/or VFR ties between BOS and anywhere in South America to justify a nonstop flight, and there is not much connectivity beyond BOS. Even LAX is a huge challenge from South America, in terms of yields anyway. Perhaps when Brazilians and/or other South Americans get visa free access to the U.S., and when Americans can easily obtain Brazilian visas and/or not pay high reciprocity fees to the likes of Argentina and Chile, traffic flows will increase to the point where BOS-South America could happen. Hey, there's always those rumors of B6 getting some A330s or A350s too .

BOS would be a good connection point for East Asia-Brazil flights! Flying NRT-GRU via BOS adds only 3 miles! How are the yields on East Asia-Brazil?
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DolphinAir747
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:47 am

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 44):

BOS would be a good connection point for East Asia-Brazil flights! Flying NRT-GRU via BOS adds only 3 miles! How are the yields on East Asia-Brazil?

I doubt it, seeing as BOS has only one flight to Asia and one to South America! Having an effective connection hub requires drawing from many destinations and frequencies on both ends. Also, why not a place like DXB which has natural advantages for being a hub airport, or JFK which has much more O&D than BOS on both ends? Operating a hub without sufficient O&D on both ends is difficult; DL has struggled with ATL to both Asia and South America and ATL is still a larger market.
 
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adamh8297
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting BOStonsox (Reply 44):
How big is BOS-BOG? That would be a route B6 would start with an A320 most likely, but it might be pushing it (it's 100 miles shorter than BOS-SFO, but BOG may have elevation issues, which may explain why they don't fly JFK-BOG).

BOS-BOG is only 20 PDEW - B6 can try to pry a few passengers via MCO/FLL from AA, DL UA and by summer CM.
Airlines flown: A3, AA, AC, AM, BA, B6, CO, DL, EA, EL, IB, LH, MI, MQ, NH, NW, NZ, PE, QF, S4, SQ, TP, UA, US, VS, WN
 
BOStonsox
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 45):
I doubt it, seeing as BOS has only one flight to Asia and one to South America! Having an effective connection hub requires drawing from many destinations and frequencies on both ends. Also, why not a place like DXB which has natural advantages for being a hub airport, or JFK which has much more O&D than BOS on both ends? Operating a hub without sufficient O&D on both ends is difficult; DL has struggled with ATL to both Asia and South America and ATL is still a larger market.

I was thinking of either JL doing fifth-freedom flights NRT-BOS-GRU or a codeshare between an Asian carrier and a South American one that sends pax through BOS. If a carrier had Asian traffic as well as BOS traffic to South America, maybe it would help!
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penguins
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:23 am

Boston has both a big, not huge, Chinese and Middle Eastern communities. I've lived there and I know that all of the Chinese college students go back to China to visit their families and all the Middle Eastern's return back to the Middle East. I think that the Middle East will come first because it is a shorter distance and there are many ethnicities and religions that have roots the Middle East. TK has already announced operations to Boston and it is defiantly not a "wish list" destination.
 
justinlee
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RE: Next To BOS: China Or Middle East?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting penguins (Reply 48):

But for a route as long as BOS-China, the business travelers are much more important for yields. You can always fill the Y cabin with low prices.

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