76er
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WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:31 pm

Quite shocking, if true. It seems the 787's are to stick around though.

source: http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/...ling-polish-airline-lot-to-shrink/
 
kl911
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:38 pm

Sad, but not really surprising. Eastern Europe is very well covered by LCC's. Hard to compete with them when your cost base is too high. Warsaw might follow Budapest in becoming a LCC only base.
 
G500
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:40 pm

The 787s better stick around, otherwise they'd have to pay Boeing a huge cancellation fee. Money they might not have

Think of Malev, shrink the fleet or close the shop... If they're leaking red ink, this might be a good step
 
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scbriml
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
The 787s better stick around, otherwise they'd have to pay Boeing a huge cancellation fee.

Given how late their 787s are, I'd be amazed if any cancellation fees still applied.
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BestWestern
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:47 pm

Without feed, LO's Asian ambitions will not be successful. There is probably enough point to point traffic for US markets to be successful.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
jfk777
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:49 pm

Must mean 737 are gone, since LOT like their Embraer planes.
 
mloew
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
Must mean 737 are gone, since LOT like their Embraer planes.

Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of. They currently have 13 ATRs and 8 Dash 8s, maybe the remaining ATRs will also go.

[Edited 2013-01-05 08:02:11]

[Edited 2013-01-05 08:04:19]
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kc135topboom
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:14 pm

LO had already planned on retiring their B-737s and replacing them with the E-175/-195s. They are also rplacing their remaining B-767-300ERs with the B-787-8. I can see LO dumping all of their E-170s and most of the E-175s. Two E-175s are leased to the Polish defense ministry because of the PolAF Tu-154 crash back in 2010.

LO currently has 2 B-787s with 6 more on order.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 6:58 pm

LO recently received 400 million zlotys (around 150 mil. USD) of government help. The government calls it "repayable loan", but I hope EU knows better than that and demands it to be returned back, forcing inefficient carrier to shut down for good.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
irshava
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:41 pm

Really turbulent times for Eastern European carriers.. Malev, Aerosvit, and now LOT... I wonder how this will turn out.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
sweair
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:53 pm

LOTs 787s could be taken by BA? RR engines, european airline etc..
 
United885
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:15 pm

There are a lot of european customers which ordered the 787 with RR engines. (I remember VS, UX and FI)
But I can´t believe that one of them would take LOT´s delivered and undelivered Dreamliner if they should be sold...
I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
 
AF022
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:04 pm

Does LO have Q400s?
CH-Aviation doesn't show any.
 
debonair
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting AF022 (Reply 12):
Does LO have Q400s?

No own ones - these DASH8Q400 are operated by eurolot SA.
 
boeing773er
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:10 am

I'm confused as to why LOT can not get a bailout from Poland, which is their owners (well the Treasury of Poland)

Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.

I don't understand European politics really, can someone explain to me why the government who owns the airline can't invest money into it?
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DLT123
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15):
I don't understand European politics really, can someone explain to me why the government who owns the airline can't invest money into it?

It would construed be an anti-competitive subsidy that is likely to be prohibited by EU law.
 
Akiestar
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting KL911 (Reply 1):
Warsaw might follow Budapest in becoming a LCC only base.

I highly doubt that. For one, Warsaw's market is significantly larger than that at Budapest, despite having a smaller catchment area (BUD essentially serves all of Hungary, while WAW/WMI serves only the eastern parts of Poland). LOT also benefits from a large Polish diaspora in the U.S. and Canada, making trans-Atlantic flying profitable for them.

Much as the Poles love W6 and FR, I doubt that Warsaw (and Poland as a whole) is that low-yielding, especially with the Polish economy doing so well compared to the rest of Europe, that it will suddenly see the imminent collapse of LOT, and in a flash become LCC-only.
 
BestWestern
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:17 am

I give LOT twenty-four months at maximum. They will lose a fortune on their Asian routes, and part of their 787 fleet will be offloaded.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 17):
making trans-Atlantic flying profitable for them.

I doubt that Trans-Atlantic flying is profitable for them - probably less loss making. The 787 will help this.

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 17):
I doubt that Warsaw (and Poland as a whole) is that low-yielding, especially with the Polish economy doing so well compared to the rest of Europe

The polish market is notoriously low yielding, and WAW is an expensive airport to be handled in.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
LO had already planned on retiring their B-737s and replacing them with the E-175/-195s.

The 737s were due to go to Central wings, and be replaced by the excellent E Jets.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 7):
Two E-175s are leased to the Polish defense ministry because of the PolAF Tu-154 crash back in 2010.
Quoting mloew (Reply 6):
Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of.

Moving over part of the fleet sounds like a short term answer, solving none of the problems, as the loss making nature doesn't go away. Actually, this sounds like a political decision.
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mke717spotter
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:07 am

This sure sounds disappointing, but when they say the fleet is going to be downsized, how much of this is what we already knew? They currently have 4 767s, 8 737 classics, 11 ATRs, and I think its safe to assume that those frames were already going to be phased out. The fleet is going to be made up of Q400s, 787s, and E-170/190s.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 18):
They will lose a fortune on their Asian routes


Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing? I know that one of the main reasons they got 787s was to start up routes to Asia, but obviously HAN didn't work and I'm skeptical as to whether LO can actually fill seats on these routes. ORD, JFK, and YYZ work because they are in large Polish population centers.
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BestWestern
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:38 am

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 23):
Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing? I know that one of the main reasons they got 787s was to start up routes to Asia, but obviously HAN didn't work and I'm skeptical as to whether LO can actually fill seats on these routes. ORD, JFK, and YYZ work because they are in large Polish population centers.

HAN was never going to work. PEK has a chance, as it is a Star hub, but connecting with Air China isn't easy. Without feed from europe, and high point to point yields, this route will not work. This route will have neither.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
milan320
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:11 am

Would be sad if LOT were to shut down, given it's history and the fact that it's one of the oldest airlines in the world.
Hope they stick around. The service in general on their European routes is good and comfortable.
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BestWestern
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:52 am

Quoting milan320 (Reply 25):
The service in general on their European routes is good and comfortable.

Their European service is excellent. However, perception in western Europe remains that LOT service does not merit a premium. With the attack of the low cost players, quality doesn't pay anymore, and their cost based does not permit a low cost operation - they tried that with central wings.

I fear that Lot will follow Malev into the history books. Long Haul from the Balkans, Eastern Europe and the Balkans is notoriously tough. Look to Romania, Ukraine, Hungary and the Czech Republic for recent examples. Poland is no different, but for their large diaspora in North America.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
LJ
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting United885 (Reply 11):
There are a lot of european customers which ordered the 787 with RR engines. (I remember VS, UX and FI)
But I can´t believe that one of them would take LOT´s delivered and undelivered Dreamliner if they should be sold...

Why? UX may need some additional planes after IBs downsizing of their long haul destinations. To be honest I'm still trying to figure out from where they'll soource the additional A330s they need for their recent increases to some long haul destinations

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 24):

HAN was never going to work. PEK has a chance, as it is a Star hub, but connecting with Air China isn't easy. Without feed from europe, and high point to point yields, this route will not work. This route will have neither.

It will be interesting if NRT and ICN will be opened given their financial situation (and new route structure). AFAIK their original plan was to open these destinations after they've replaced the 787 on the current 767 routes. However, as you correctly point out, how are they going to sustain flights to these stations when they don't get enough feed?
 
sweair
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:58 am

Quoting United885 (Reply 11):

With the backlog of the 788 I think it is pretty easy to find new owners, even if you have to change the cabin interior, some airlines would probably prefer a chance to get some frames a few years earlier than planned? The backlog is what 5 or 6 years!?
 
EHRD
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:40 pm

Quoting mke717spotter (Reply 23):
Does anyone know how WAW-PEK is doing?

Last october I flew AMS-WAW-PEK and back and the loads on the flights between WAW and PEK were were good in economy, I think about 90%. Don't know about businessclass. A lot of transit passengers on board, some of them coming from AMS.
Also a lot of Chinese people on board, I think most of them work in Poland.

The good loads in economy doesn't say anything. I paid € 496,- for a returnticket from AMS to PEK. Don't know how many tickets are sold for this price but I can understand LO won't make a lot of money when selling tickets for € 496,-.

[Edited 2013-01-06 05:41:13]
 
ltbewr
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:05 pm

Wouldn't some of those 767's be quite old? If I recall correctly, LOT was one of the first Soviet Bloc countries to operate USA/Euro aircraft, including the 767, even before the fall of USSR. Some of those 767's/737's may be reaching very expensive checks, or not as fuel efficient as newer models so adding to their costs.
I would also suspect that like many government owed companies, there is employment too many people, at high wages and with extensive pensions to keep the politicians happy that cripples any profits. This is compounded by LCC's like Ryanair and competing vs. trains for shorter distances on price.
 
skiaplg
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:23 pm

It would be sad to see the end of LOT. I flew with them between CDG and WAW in 2011 on an E175, and it was certainly some of the best european service I've received in a while - along with quite comfortable seating. I remember reading the in-flight magazine, with a full page article on how LOT was reducing its losses. Perhaps with a focus on the E-Jets and the 787, LOT can turn a profit, but if the EU commission decides to deny the government help, I'm having trouble seeing how LOT would continue...
 
dcann40
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 31):
It would be sad to see the end of LOT. I flew with them between CDG and WAW in 2011 on an E175, and it was certainly some of the best european service I've received in a while - along with quite comfortable seating. I remember reading the in-flight magazine, with a full page article on how LOT was reducing its losses.

It's been a rough couple of years for Eastern European airlines. Unfortunately, whatever LOT did in 2011 hasn't quite met its needs.
 
BestWestern
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:02 pm

It's ok offering discounted transit fares when your home market can deliver a premium. However, Warsaw doesn't deliver a premium yield. As AMS serves China so well, one stop fares have to be mega attractive to work, especially with secondary carriers like LOT.

LO strategy for a while was to ditch the 737 - hence the birth of central wings. With the failure of central wings, the aircraft ended up back in the hands of LOT mainline. If they can get back to a 787/170 fleet, that would be promising. However, getting staff numbers and legacy costs back to something similar will be the toughest part of the equation. Shrinking a business is really tough, especially in a state run environment.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:25 pm

I think LO will take all 8 of the B-788 order. They may have one or two of them configuered for the Polish Presidential airplane.
 
ordwaw
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
They may have one or two of them configuered for the Polish Presidential airplane.

B788 is not even an option for a specially configured Presidential airplane. It is too expensive, and Polish government does not have a need for such a large dedicated aircraft.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 34):
I think LO will take all 8 of the B-788 order.

...if LO would still exist in 2015. So far, they are taking 5 in 2013. If EU Court rules against the government so-called "loan", its "do widzenia, nieLot".
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
WROORD
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:22 pm

The article has a few catch phrases, but nothing concrete. The downsizing or unifying of fleet was planned for some time. As LO gets their 787s they are getting rid of all 767. They will also get rid of all 737s by March. What is new is that K2 may take some of the E170 as LO will get 5 more E195s.
As some point the plan B is to shift all operation to K2 sort of like OS with Tyrolean.
 
apruzesse13
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:48 pm

Over the last 3 years, LOT Group, including EuroLOT, has taken delivery of 23 new aircraft:

- 8 new ERJ 175
- 5 new ERJ 195
- 2 new B787
- 8 new Q400
- 2 new B787

and has phased out 8 B737, mainly -500. Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.

The announced fleet reduction of over 30% therefore seems to be only announced to gain compassion of the EU, as compared to status of 2009, the fleet will remain larger both in terms of number of aircraft and offered seats, but now only composed of NEW aircraft.

An aside question is: how did LOT obtain financing (export credit or others) for all this new fleet, given they are on the brink to bankruptcy without gvt bailout?
 
marcinGDN
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 38):
Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.

Actually 6 B788, and as far as I know 1 E95. The Q400 fleet is to reach 20.

For me the Q400 does not make sense with a large E70/75 fleet of 22.
They should have gone with the ATR but it came down to availability.
LO has improved imho over the years, K2 is dreadful.
Terra Incognita
 
AF022
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:18 pm

Are they going to focus on either Q400 or E, or are they keeping both?
 
apruzesse13
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:14 am

Quoting marcinGDN (Reply 39):
LO has improved imho over the years, K2 is dreadful.

Agreed. K2 is even a greater basket case as LOT. The funny thing is that the government already bailed out LOT by buying from them around 70% of K2 at an inflated price, while K2 as an asset is worthless!!! And now they are doing same by buying the remaining 28%! and soon, K2 will itself ask for a bailout!!

Those EU anti-bailout regulations for airlines are really a laughing stock, nobody shows any respect!!
 
marcinGDN
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 40):

keep E75/95, get rid of E70 just like the 14 ERJs.
K2 will have to bailed out sooner than we think, it is some weird C0-turboprop hybrid.
There is also tension between K2 and LO. No wonder if K2 cancells a full flight operated for LO but operates their own loss-making routes....
Terra Incognita
 
Viscount724
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:35 am

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15):
Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.

No they can't. EU comments related to recent approval of restrucuring aid for Czech Airlines. See the "Background" section.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-12-981_en.htm

More on the rules which were amended in 2004.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-04-856_en.htm?locale=en
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-04-172_en.htm?locale=en
 
dcann40
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:38 am

Quoting apruzesse13 (Reply 38):
Over the last 3 years, LOT Group, including EuroLOT, has taken delivery of 23 new aircraft:

- 8 new ERJ 175
- 5 new ERJ 195
- 2 new B787
- 8 new Q400
- 2 new B787

and has phased out 8 B737, mainly -500. Therefore a huge fleet expansion since 2009. Still will take delivery of additional 4 new B787, 5 new ERJ 195, 6 new Q400.

I suppose it really was an over expansion, based on the planned contraction.
 
DLT123
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:47 am

I just hope LOT will be able to launch its Dreamliner overseas flights later this month.

Any word on that?
 
boeing773er
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:00 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 43):
Quoting DLT123 (Reply 16):

Thanks for the those replies, I knew it was ilegal but I was just not sure how that worked out.


I really hope this all works out for LO, it seems like this downsizing and simplifying strategy may work out. But, from the likes of other Eastern Euro counterparts; the odds are not in their favor.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
VC10er
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:01 am

It would be very sad to see such a vet of the skies disappear. How is CSA doing?

If they were to go under I'd assume UA would jump on opening ORD nonstop to Warsaw.
The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
 
dcann40
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:48 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 47):
t would be very sad to see such a vet of the skies disappear. How is CSA doing?

If they were to go under I'd assume UA would jump on opening ORD nonstop to Warsaw.

Speaking of which, who does offer non-stops to WAW besides LOT (from the U.S.) and from where? Anyone know?
 
ordwaw
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting dcann40 (Reply 48):
Speaking of which, who does offer non-stops to WAW besides LOT (from the U.S.) and from where?

Nobody.

The only non-stops from Poland to North America are on LOT ...

- WAW-ORD
- WAW-JFK
- WAW-YYZ

Last year there was also one time WAW-IAD on US AirForce One

 Smile

[Edited 2013-01-07 16:05:00]
 
airbazar
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 15):
I'm confused as to why LOT can not get a bailout from Poland, which is their owners (well the Treasury of Poland)

Since the treasury is their parent company shouldn't they be allowed to inject as much cash as they need? In my mind that's like BA asking IAG for money. Of course IAG is privately held but it is the parent company of BA.

And there lies the biggest disadvantage of being owned by the government. EU law prohibits airlines from taking any government money. IAG is not a government, or a government entity.
 
Delta777Jet
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting mloew (Reply 6):

Jep, think that the EMBs go over to euroLOT, which is be 'the other government-regulated airline' the article speaks of. They currently have 13 ATRs and 8 Dash 8s, maybe the remaining ATRs will also go.

You would be surprised to hear that EuroLOT also operate EMB 170 AND including the presidential Embraer aircraft.

Quoting ordwaw (Reply 35):
B788 is not even an option for a specially configured Presidential airplane. It is too expensive, and Polish government does not have a need for such a large dedicated aircraft.

You are right, but their current lease on the EMB 170 leased and operated by EuroLOT is also very very costly.
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marcinGDN
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:53 pm

Indeed, K2 leases 2E75 as VIP planes and one to LO.
The governmental deal is very lucrative, thus they burn evern more cash flying their own routes. I am confident that the government could get a far better deal on market conditions.
Terra Incognita
 
DLT123
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:12 am

I just looked at Lot's website and you can still buy tickets for the Dreamliner launch flight.

It's $547 in coach (I think) and $4100 in business.

Maybe they'll even have a Dreamliner cake and balloons.
 
ordwaw
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RE: WSJ-E: LOT To Get Rid Of Almost Half Its Fleet

Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting DLT123 (Reply 53):
I just looked at Lot's website and you can still buy tickets for the Dreamliner launch flight.

It's $547 in coach (I think) and $4100 in business

Looking at WAW-ORD-WAW leaving 1/16 and returning 1/23 one can travel on

- KL/AF/DL/LH/BA for $597-650
or
- LO for $1,042

60-75% is a pretty hefty premium to fly on a 788 (with a chance of a downgauge to 763) ....

[Edited 2013-01-11 06:43:41]