ozark1
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A Few Questions About The YS-11

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:21 pm

This airplane interests me because I flew on them as a teenager on PI from GSP to TYS with a stop in AVL.
Why did Piedmont go with this airplane as opposed to the CV-580? Was curious as to how many it seated. I have the book on the history of Piedmont and apparently the air conditioning system did not function well, and they also had to make the seats wider. Did Piedmont regret buying these or were they good performers?
Did Mid-Pacific acquire Piedmont's YS-11 fleet? Did any other U.S. airlines consider buying this plane?
Thanks for any info!
 
CF-CPI
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Why did Piedmont go with this airplane as opposed to the CV-580? Was curious as to how many it seated.

It seated 60 passengers vs the 44 (or so) in the Convair 580. This is one of the main reasons why PI went for it. They had a large presence at Washington National (DCA), which was slot restricted. The extra seats really helped get the passengers on their way, while operating with a constrained number of flights. As far as I know, the YS-11 was well-liked, and it was powered by RR Darts, which were a common turboprop engine (PI had them already - on the FH-228).
 
Viscount724
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Why did Piedmont go with this airplane as opposed to the CV-580?

They may have wanted a new aircraft and not one that had flown for any number of other airlines for as much as 15 years, considering that the CV-580 conversion program used 340/440 airframes that were all built betwen 1952 and 1958.

And I don't think there were many converted 580s available at the time Piedmont put their YS-11s into service (first one delivered 1967) as if memory correct most 580s were converted by carriers already operating them as 340/440s.
 
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yyz717
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
It seated 60 passengers vs the 44 (or so) in the Convair 580.

The CV580 could carry 50 pax.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 3):
Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
It seated 60 passengers vs the 44 (or so) in the Convair 580.

The CV580 could carry 50 pax.

52 was a common CV580 configuration.
 
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longhauler
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Did any other U.S. airlines consider buying this plane?

Wikipedia lists a lot of US carriers here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMC_YS-11

Including some which are a little surprising, like Hawaiian Air and PSA.

I flew on the YS-11 twice, once with Provincetown-Boston Airlines, and once with Transair Canada. My impression is that it felt just like an Avro 748.

In both cases the cabin was configured 2x2 in Economy. I recall reading that a 2x3 version was offered, but I can't imagine that as the cabin would be pretty tight, also, I can not find that reference any more.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
I flew on the YS-11 twice, once with Provincetown-Boston Airlines, and once with Transair Canada.

Ah right I remember the Transair YS-11. I recall seeing them at YWG as a kid. Which route did you fly it on. Did it ever visit YYZ regularly to your knowledge. A very elusive & occasional visitor to YYZ was the Transair F-28.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
As far as I know, the YS-11 was well-liked, and it was powered by RR Darts, which were a common turboprop engine

According to aerotransport.org, 25 of the 182 built are still active. Airborne Express operated a sizeable cargo fleet until the late 90's.

Makes you wonder why NAMC did not develop a follow-on airliner. Perhaps bc is was a collaboration effort of sev companies made it a one-off effort. Also I doubt the YS-11 was overly profitable.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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longhauler
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 6):
Which route did you fly it on. Did it ever visit YYZ regularly to your knowledge.

YYZ-YAM-YQT-YHD-YWG. I had the choice of a non-stop AC L1011, or this flight on a YS-11 ... no prizes for guessing which one I chose. (or 99% of the people on here would choose!)

The flight at the time was daily, and usually an F28 or B737. One day a week it was a YS-11. I am thinking it must have been on a weekend, as I was in school and wouldn't think my parents would let me take a day off school for such an adventure.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 7):
YYZ-YAM-YQT-YHD-YWG. I had the choice of a non-stop AC L1011, or this flight on a YS-11 ... no prizes for guessing which one I chose. (or 99% of the people on here would choose!)

Good choice! I also remember the L10 skeds to YWG. Your YS-11 flight must have taken most of day to get to YWG. But well worth it.

Looks like most of the remaining YS-11 are with the Japan Air Self Defense Force. A couple in each of Mexico and the Philippines.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Viscount724
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:08 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
n both cases the cabin was configured 2x2 in Economy. I recall reading that a 2x3 version was offered, but I can't imagine that as the cabin would be pretty tight, also, I can not find that reference any more.

Can't see 2-3 on the YS-11. The cabin is about 5 to 6 inches wider than the ATR-42 and F-27 but that's not enough for another seat even if you could steal an inch or so from each of the other seats and the aisle. DC-9 cabin is 17 inches wider.
 
penguins
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
Wikipedia lists a lot of US carriers here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAMC_YS-11

Including some which are a little surprising, like Hawaiian Air and PSA.

PSA used the type for training purposes only. I assume the type was common to the L-188's that PSA did operate on revenue flights.
 
PI4EVER
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:29 am

PI revised the seating on the YS11 from 60 to 58 by installing a forward coat closet. Seats were alleged smaller on Japanese-airline operated YS11's, but seats on the PI aircraft were standard to the current fleet of FH227B's.
The YS11 was chosen as it provided additional capacity over the Martin 404's it replaced, and was able to operate to all the short field airports PI served with the Martin, such as Bluefield and Beckley, WV, Hot Springs, VA, London-Corbin, KY and Rocky Mount, NC. These airports could not accept the FH227B so the YS11 was a major increase in capacity and operational flexibility for PI. Understand that in the mid-60's there were not a lot of new alternate aircraft, prop or pure jet that could operate to such marginal airports, and the YS11 was a perfect fit to PI's operation.
The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.
The YS11 was powered by Dart turboprops comparable to the FH227B's so a definite maintenance advantage.
Overall, a great airplane for the PI operation, and popular with passengers. Pilots loved the airplane, but F/A's had a mixed bag of opinion because it was an oven in the summer, an icebox in the winter and a "Vomit Comet" in turbulence.
A ride in a YS11 in the winter over and through the Blue Ridge Mountains or the summer thermals of the South beat out any amusement park ride of the day.....
I personally preferred the FH227B.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
crownvic
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 4:00 am

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 11):
The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.

PI4EVER While your response is quite informative, I really do not understand this part of the story. Pound for pound, nothing could out-perform a CV-580 (even with today's standards). What limitations would apply to a CV-580, that would not apply to slower performing YS-11? The empty weight and max t/o weight of both a/c are comparable. Additionally, engine out performance on an Allison 501 powered Convair would be safer, than the less powerful RR Dart engine on the YS-11. Just curious...
 
flyPBA
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:30 am

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Did Mid-Pacific acquire Piedmont's YS-11 fleet?

YS-11-200s

N159P
N187P
N219P
N257P
N259P
N269P
N273P
N274P

all went to PBA

N257P, N269P, and N274P later went on to fly for American Eagle (Simmons Airlines) ...
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 11):The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.

PI4EVER While your response is quite informative, I really do not understand this part of the story. Pound for pound, nothing could out-perform a CV-580 (even with today's standards). What limitations would apply to a CV-580, that would not apply to slower performing YS-11? The empty weight and max t/o weight of both a/c are comparable. Additionally, engine out performance on an Allison 501 powered Convair would be safer, than the less powerful RR Dart engine on the YS-11. Just curious...

I've flown on both, also. As I recall, both planes had impressive short-runway performance. For instance, I remember flying out of CRW which in the early 70s used to be like flying off a cliff. I felt perfectly safe on Piedmont's YS-11s.

On the other hand, after Hurricane Agnes' flooding of IPT in 1972, only Altair's Beechcraft 99s were able to take-of from IPT's debris-cluttered property. Allegheny Airline's Convair take-off ability made little difference at that airport.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:59 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
This airplane interests me because I flew on them as a teenager on PI from GSP to TYS with a stop in AVL.

How long did it take? You could probably drive faster.

The CV580 was an updated version of the CV340-440 with Allison Turboprops. So it was made between 1948-55 most likely. The YS11 was a new plane in the mid 1960s. The YS11 had reliable RR Darts.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 5):
Including some which are a little surprising, like Hawaiian Air and PSA.

Didnt know that. I knew Mid Pacific used them, but not Hawaiian.
 
CF-CPI
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 12):
Additionally, engine out performance on an Allison 501 powered Convair would be safer, than the less powerful RR Dart engine on the YS-11. Just curious...

The earlier post regarding the 'Y's field advantage at a few of PI's stations was interesting. Didn't the YS-11 have huge props, relatively speaking? How would this figure into field performance over and above the engine power per se? Or is it already figured in?
 
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longhauler
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:29 pm

I see that Transair (Canada) operated the YS-11A in a 46 seat configuration. So it must have been in a "combi" setup, looking at the freight door in the front of the aircraft. Did PI ever carry main deck (combi) freight on their YS-11s?

Also, in an "ad" in a Transair timetable of the early 1970s, they announce the arrival of the new YS-11. Two things strike me in this ad ... they note the short field capability of the aircraft, also that it was equipped with an APU. While the CV580 may well have been short field capable, did it have an APU?
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 16):
The earlier post regarding the 'Y's field advantage at a few of PI's stations was interesting. Didn't the YS-11 have huge props, relatively speaking? How would this figure into field performance over and above the engine power per se? Or is it already figured in?

Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?
 
CF-CPI
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?

I don't think so.
 
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longhauler
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?

It doesn't appear so in any of the pictures online, either in take-off or landing configuration.

The short field performance may have been a result of the greater wing area and lighter weight of the YS-11 over the CV580.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Italianflyer
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:58 pm

My one and only time on a PI YS11 was when I was about 6 or 7 y/o and we lived in DC circa 1977. Flew as a UM from DCA to SDF to stay with the grandparents via RIC, TRI and London-Corbin. Vague memory, but I remember the ground stop time was about 10-15 minutes and I think the number 2 kept running for air conditioning (not sure about that). The return trip was a nonstop on a 737.

I snaged a timetable from the bulkhead that is buried in one of my timetable boxes.
 
rampart
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting PI4EVER (Reply 11):
The Convair 580 was a powerful aircraft of comparable size, but could not operate from these airports due to runway requirements, so a new YS11 offered PI additional capacity, short field operation and good operating economics.
The YS11 was powered by Dart turboprops comparable to the FH227B's so a definite maintenance advantage.

With that kind of performance, I wonder why Frontier, Bonanza, or Allegheny did not take any? The 580 was widely regarded as excellent for mountain flying, including tight places like ASE (Aspen Airways got their from Frontier, Frontier never served ASE).

-Rampart
 
sdf880
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:46 pm

The YS-11 dart engine had water methanol injection available if needed and this would increase takeoff power quite a bit. I remember the runway data had "wet takeoff" methanol used or "dry takeoff" no water meth used. The water meth if used was armed (3 switches on center console) taking the runway and would be turned off on climb out.

SDF880
 
Viscount724
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:49 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 20):
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
Did the YS11 have slats or Kruger flaps?

It doesn't appear so in any of the pictures online, either in take-off or landing configuration.

Do ANY propeller-powered airliners have slats or Kruger flaps? Can't recall any but might be overlooking something.
 
maxpower1954
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:54 pm

Quoting penguins (Reply 10):
PSA used the type for training purposes only. I assume the type was common to the L-188's that PSA did operate on revenue flights.

The two YS-11s PSA operated from 1974 to 1977 were on a pilot training contract with ANA (one crashed in 1974) and had nothing to do with PSA's airline operation. The YS-11 and L-188 type ratings are unrelated to each other.

When I started flying for PI in 1986 as a 727 S/O, most of the captains I flew with had plenty of YS-11 experience. The most frequent comment I heard was "underpowered". One had an engine failure out of Bluefield, WV at max weight - he ended up descending into a nearby valley before climbing back to pattern altitude and return to Bluefield. This same captain also had some bonehead try to hijack his YS-11 to Havana. He brained the hijacker with the backside of the fire axe - said he didn't even think about WHAT side he was using!

I find it difficult to believe a Convair 580 has poorer runway performance than a YS-11.
 
NDWDCPGUY
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:35 am

The YS-11 had no leading edge devices. It had fowler type trailing edge flaps (just like the Cessna 150) that served it very well. Transair flew two combi aircraft all over northern Manitoba and to the Northwest Territories as well as the Lake Superior route to Toronto. The combi aircraft were especially suited to routes to Coral Harbour, Baker Lake and Chesterfield Inlet in the NWT flying passengers, food, building materials, and everything else! I remember flying into YTH from YWG one morning in a YS-11 shooting 2 missed approaches. On the last try, those fantastic pilots got it down nicely followed by an avalanche of 7-UP and Coke cans rolling forward down the aisle from the galley doors that had sprung open during landing!
 
crownvic
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:39 am

Quoting SDF880 (Reply 23):
The YS-11 dart engine had water methanol injection available if needed and this would increase takeoff power quite a bit. I remember the runway data had "wet takeoff" methanol used or "dry takeoff" no water meth used. The water meth if used was armed (3 switches on center console) taking the runway and would be turned off on climb out.

SDF880

Actually, not only did the Dart have this capability, but many Allison powered CV580's did too. Outside of mountain operations, this feature was rarely ever used, because the aircraft was already overpowered.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 16):

The earlier post regarding the 'Y's field advantage at a few of PI's stations was interesting. Didn't the YS-11 have huge props, relatively speaking? How would this figure into field performance over and above the engine power per se? Or is it already figured in?

Huge? Yes they were long and thin, but not the "monsters" that were on the Allisons. I do not have the stats readily available, but i would bet the square area of an Aero-Products propeller found on this Allison engine was far greater than the prop on the Dart.

Don't get me wrong, the Dart and the YS-11 were good engines/airframe, but I don't think it could out-perform the CV-580 in any way. The drawbacks of the CV-580 were operating costs of the thirsty Allison engines and of course, it's age. I once ran an airline that used both Dart powered F-27's and airline that flew Allison powered CV-580's. They both had their advantages and disadvantages. The performance of the CV-580 left the F-27 "in the dust". However, one day a reluctant passenger that boarding our CV-580 was hesitant to get on our " B-29 Bomber" as she put it. It was those days I wish we had the F-27!
 
sdf880
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:31 am

Not familiar with the 580's other than the basics. I did enjoy a few rides on the 580 and my understanding is the 580 will outperform the YS-11 hands down. I was just tossing out a few YS-11 tid bits as I was involved with that a/c at 2 airlines. It was fun to pull up to an FBO and the line guy asking "What kind of Convair is that?"

RGDS,

SDF880
 
sfjeff
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
it was an oven in the summer, an icebox in the winter

I remember hearing from someone years ago about the inadequate air conditioning on the YS-11. Did the manufacturer or Piedmont ever attempt to improve it? Years ago Royale Airlines installed an additional air conditioner at the rear of each EMB-110. It was basically a large window unit, but it worked. I don't know what happened to the condensation. Obviously, this would not have been feasible on a plane as large as a YS-11, but did they try anything?
Jeff in Málaga
 
PI4EVER
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RE: A Few Questions About The YS-11

Tue Jan 08, 2013 8:51 pm

I should know better to post a response on A-net without exact and documented historical data and operational statistics. There was no need to mention the Convair 580 as we really weren't talking about that aircraft anyway; however, let me clarify my big mouth. I was not a pilot, aeronautical engineer or Flight Operations Executive with PI who knew the finer points of everything airplane. I simply remember quite clearly mention that we did not ever consider the Convair 580 as it was more expensive to operate and it could not be flown to airports that our own FH227B's couldn't fly to. Now again, let's not start a comparison of CV580's and FH227B's please.....I know we did not fly the 227's into BLF, BKW, and HOT due to airport conditions so any reference to the 580 made some sense. I was well aware this was a brute muscle machine....I spent many hours flying around in Lockheed Electra's as well and knew the power of those Allison's.....so if the 580 could have handled every segment of line flying for PI the Company simply chose to not buy it. It was an older airframe, apparently more expensive to operate with a few less seats than the YS, and 20+ aircraft were in limited supply in the mid-60's as most were already flying with NC, AL and FL. Although I did fly the CV440, I never flew a 580 so as noted I should have simply left off my reference to it in responding to ozark1's posting.
That said, the other fine points about the YS that have been questioned that I can factually respond to from experience riding on the thing is,
1. PI did not operate a combi version. 58 seat passenger layout with a forward airstair entry door. The 2 aft doors left and right serviced the aft galley and baggage area.
2. PI installed the interior's, APU and air conditioning unit upon delivery in the US. Some work was performed in Oakland but most completed at PI's maintenance facility in Winston-Salem.
3. The A/C unit or packs simply didn't keep the plane cool on longer turnarounds like in ATL, DCA, ORF and CLT so up to takeoff the cabin could be quite uncomfortable in the summer. In comparison, the 227's were the exact opposite, and the F28's PI operated were fine with heating and air; the F100's operated by US and AA not so. I am not an HVAC tech so don't know why.
4. The routing from GSP-AVL-TYS was likely part of a 7 or 8 leg originator out of DCA and was an easier alternative...and faster...than driving over the Blue Ridge. Flight times about 20 minutes per segment, with a 20 minute or less groundstop in AVL. My original ride on this routing was a 9-stop Martin 404 DCA-TYS in 1969, with a repeat of the same route the next morning. Exhausted when I fell into bed that night at the luxurious "Airport Inn" in TYS, with a 5am wakeup call, I seriously questioned my decision to go to work for this "puddle jumper" airline. Never rode a Martin again as they were retired by February, 1970.
Alas, its all history now, and that decision influenced every aspect of my life for the next 31 years. It was a privilege to work for this fine airline, and I was blessed with an aviation career that fulfilled a little boy's dream. Don't ever believe you can't live your dream.......
Just don't quote me on anything Convair 580'ish!
Thomas
watch what you want. you may get it.

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