CaptCufflinks
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ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:36 am

Just breaking now on Sky News:

http://news.sky.com/story/1035431/bo...787-dreamliner-brake-problem-scare

Quote:

It was scheduled to fly from the Yamaguchi prefecture in western Japan to Tokyo's Haneda Airport.

But the domestic flight was grounded by Japan's ANA because brake parts to the rear left undercarriage needed replacing, a spokesman at Yamaguchi Ube Airport said.

An ANA spokeswoman said: "In the cockpit, an error message related to its brake system was displayed.

"The exact nature and the cause of the error message is not clear yet."

All 98 passengers on board were switched to another flight for Tokyo.
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:51 am

G´day

Next we get a new "breaking" thread here every time a stewardess... err - flight attendant drops the coffee kettle or in Asia more likely the tea kettle on a 787.  

Lord have mercy!


Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
CaptCufflinks
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:54 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 1):
Next we get a new "breaking" thread here every time a stewardess.

Yes it is all very alarmist at the moment.

Hey - if you don't want to be so grumpy about the whole thing, just read some of the comments at the bottom of the Sky News article - it's like airliners.net for toddlers! Some of them certainly made me smile.

Josh
 
tropical
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:56 am

Yes, I'm not sure the word 'scare' is really pertinent to this story. Still, not a good 48 hours for the 787  
 
chieft
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:05 pm

Possibly we can consolidate all the different issues-threads to one "B787 glitches" thread?
Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
 
AA737-823
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:42 pm

At this point, it's still possible that the brakes reached their service limit... with the information given, heck, we don't really know anything.
Or, it could be a legitimate fault. No doubt, those happen. Especially when you choose to electrify the brakes.....ugh.
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:06 pm

German news website Spiegel Online reports "problems with the brake control computer" which could not be fixed "because of an unavailable spare part":

http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/...erie-beim-dreamliner-a-876555.html

They are using the title "A Series of Problems with Boeing's 'Dreamliner': Three Breakdowns in Three Days", by the way. Not a good press coverage in Europe...
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
holzmann
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:18 pm

Of course DER SPIEGEL is running such a series! The Germans have every reason to promote the Boeing 787 as a failure. Because with it, DER SPIEGEL has more opportunity to label the US as a failure, especially US manufacturing, and at the same time promote a European (largely German) product. Slamming the US and lifting up German products are the two things DER SPIEGEL does best.
 
PlaneInsomniac
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 7):
Slamming the US and lifting up German products are the two things DER SPIEGEL does best.

Yes, sure. Such a title could only be explained by Der Spiegel's well-known rabid pro-Airbus stance. After all, they once dedicated an entire cover story to the A380:


(From http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-21114296.html)

 



[Edited 2013-01-09 05:46:42]
Am I cured? Slept 5 hours on last long-haul flight...
 
FlyingAY
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 7):
Of course DER SPIEGEL is running such a series! The Germans have every reason to promote the Boeing 787 as a failure.

You really do not know Der Spiegel that well? They are famous for their anti-Airbus agenda. Would you think that American media would have every reason to promote any Airbus product as a failure? I didn't think so.
 
babybus
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:34 pm

If the aircraft is continually failing then people need to know about it. I won't fly it for 6 months after all these glitches are fixed.

There are very serious safety problems and unfortunately for Boeing and its new baby the travelling public need to make informed choices. That is the essence of capitalism itself.
and with that..cabin crew, seats for landing please.
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:44 pm

Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 6):
Three Breakdowns in Three Days

How many 320s and 737s have gone tech in the last 3 days? (rhetorical)
 
David L
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting CaptCufflinks (Reply 2):
just read some of the comments at the bottom of the Sky News article - it's like airliners.net for toddlers! Some of them certainly made me smile.

   One genius has it sussed: all the 787 issues are due to the carbon-fibre construction.   
 
jayunited
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:23 pm

Seriously how many flights were canceled or delayed yesterday do to braking issues where are the press releases for those flights? Its ridiculous every problem that a 787 has does not need to be discussed as though it were a serious issue.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:24 pm

I wonder if this is similar to the braking issue one of the new LOT birds is reported to have experienced?
 
bohica
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:25 pm

So an airplane has a routine mechanical problem which cannot be fixed until they get the part. Someone needs to explain to me why this is newsworthy.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 15):
Someone needs to explain to me why this is newsworthy.

Because it happened to a 787.

That being said, this forum piled on the A380 during it's early days and you can be sure every glitch on the A350 will have it's own thread, as well.

God help us when the neo and MAX EIS. The sheer number of airframes will mean this forum will be nothing but glitch reports.   
 
TC957
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:33 pm

I'm not surprised that UBJ airport doesn't have parts there to fix the problem - it's a 2-gate outpost that only has a few HND flights daily. I use it annually. Had this issue occurred at HND I doubt it would made the news at all and would have been quietly dealt with and fixed.
 
CaptCufflinks
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 15):
Someone needs to explain to me why this is newsworthy.

Because three 787 malfunctions in three days gives them poetic license to write whatever they so wish?

Because it's a slow news day?

Both?

I put it up on the forum because it had not yet been discussed, and let's face it, if I hadn't then someone else would have.
 
mfe777
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 10):
If the aircraft is continually failing then people need to know about it. I won't fly it for 6 months after all these glitches are fixed.

There are very serious safety problems and unfortunately for Boeing and its new baby the travelling public need to make informed choices. That is the essence of capitalism itself.

Are you not flying the A380 as well? I ask because it has even more serious issues that have not been fixed on many aircraft yet, even after being in service for 6 years. Wing cracks, Engine fires and explosions. But.... a 787 needs a brake repaired, let's ban them from service.
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:03 pm

Bigger problem: 98 people on board? That flight was going to lose money anyway.
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UALWN
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting mfe777 (Reply 19):
I ask because it has even more serious issues that have not been fixed on many aircraft yet, even after being in service for 6 years. Wing cracks, Engine fires and explosions.

Engine fires and explosions? In plural? Show us your data, please. As for the wing cracks, they pose no safety risk whatsoever.

In any case, I don't think going the "and you even more" route is particularly useful. Here we are discussing the 787. There have been many threads about the A380 issues. And rightly so.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
F9Animal
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:15 pm

Guys... This is totally normal! Nothing big here. Its a new airplane! Hey! If I bought a new car... And it burst into flames... And the dealer and car maker told me that it was normal for a new car... I would totally understand! If the car started leaking gas, had a brake problem, and smoking arc electrical problems as well... I would understand! Its totally normal for a new car!

Hey, I will give Boeing credit here. It is indeed a new plane. We should expect these kinds of issues on a new plane. Heck, the Comet had some issues when it started flying too. And look, they fixed those problems, and the plane had a good history afterwards!
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
roseflyer
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 10):
If the aircraft is continually failing then people need to know about it. I won't fly it for 6 months after all these glitches are fixed.

There are very serious safety problems and unfortunately for Boeing and its new baby the travelling public need to make informed choices. That is the essence of capitalism itself.

A flight being cancelled due to a brake change is not new. Typically brakes last about 2000 flights, but from time to time they need replacing before then and flights get canceled if there are not spare parts. Anyone who flies knows that brakes, tires, etc all need occasional changing and sometimes if the part is not in stock a flight gets canceled.

I can't think of a more routine maintenance event other than a tire change. Next we will see a news article "dreamliner unsafe because of flat tire caused by airplane running over debris"
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
na
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 21):
Bigger problem: 98 people on board? That flight was going to lose money anyway.

Maybe they cancelled it to save money 
-

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
Quoting bohica (Reply 15):
Someone needs to explain to me why this is newsworthy.

Because it happened to a 787.

Exactly, only because of that. Its like with the A380 - every little problem is made ten times bigger by the media than if would be a 777.
 
hb88
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 20):
Are you not flying the A380 as well? I ask because it has even more serious issues that have not been fixed on many aircraft yet, even after being in service for 6 years. Wing cracks, Engine fires and explosions. But.... a 787 needs a brake repaired, let's ban them from service.

rotfl - knowing the actual issues with the A380, I am more than happy to fly on the A380 (and I have repeatedly). Do you actually *know* anything about the fatigue issues relating to the wing ribs construction methods? Do you understand the replacement/remedy scheduling and the actual impact of the issue? Engine fires and explosions? Better review your knowledge of the 380 systems handling of the failures for those events - you might be more impressed than clearly you are now. Never mind that the engine issues are, er, not actually caused by the A380 design - you might want to consider that engines are made by engine manufacturers. It is a credit to the A380 design that they absorbed the effects of these incidents safely.

This number of incidents with the 787 seems to be sort of another matter altogether given their frequency and the low number of airframes flying. Fires in the hull? Yeah, that sort of bothers me. Electrical failures in a composite airframe? Yep, I'm paying attention to that in relation to reduced failure current paths in hyrbid metal/composite structures.

I'd suggest forming a dispassionate reasoned view of the situation rather than a foaming-at-the-mouth Boeing fanboy opinion. The 787 problems do seem to be quite numerous and denying their potential seriousness is a mistake imho. You may want to consider dispatch reliability data to get informed if you really want to compare the 380 to the 787.

In any case, I am sure Boeing will address these problems professionally and quickly - they have to. But the character of these failures seems to me to be quite closely linked to the more-electric philosophy as well as the more composite airframe construction.
 
F9Animal
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting na (Reply 25):

Think about it for a second. How can you compare the 787 or A380 to a 777? The 777 is a proven airplane. The 787 has very few aircraft in service. Statistics are favorable that a major problem will develop on the 787, and the media is loving it. I wouldnt be surprised if reporters are booking 787 flights like crazy so they can give first hand accounts of trouble.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
phxa340
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting hb88 (Reply 26):

I never said that , you quoted the wrong person. But thanks for the lecture  
 
RussianJet
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:30 pm

The 787 was massively hyped, hugely late, long-awaited, then finally hailed as a huge leap forward in civil aerospace on entering service with an awful lot of fanfare. It's going to be under a microscope for a while for fairly natural and obvious reasons - so get used to it. Please just stop it with all the 'this is ridiculous' and 'why is this news' nonsense.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
mfe777
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting hb88 (Reply 26):
rotfl - knowing the actual issues with the A380, I am more than happy to fly on the A380 (and I have repeatedly). Do you actually *know* anything about the fatigue issues relating to the wing ribs construction methods? Do you understand the replacement/remedy scheduling and the actual impact of the issue? Engine fires and explosions? Better review your knowledge of the 380 systems handling of the failures for those events - you might be more impressed than clearly you are now. Never mind that the engine issues are, er, not actually caused by the A380 design - you might want to consider that engines are made by engine manufacturers. It is a credit to the A380 design that they absorbed the effects of these incidents safely.

This number of incidents with the 787 seems to be sort of another matter altogether given their frequency and the low number of airframes flying. Fires in the hull? Yeah, that sort of bothers me. Electrical failures in a composite airframe? Yep, I'm paying attention to that in relation to reduced failure current paths in hyrbid metal/composite structures.

I'd suggest forming a dispassionate reasoned view of the situation rather than a foaming-at-the-mouth Boeing fanboy opinion. The 787 problems do seem to be quite numerous and denying their potential seriousness is a mistake imho. You may want to consider dispatch reliability data to get informed if you really want to compare the 380 to the 787.

In any case, I am sure Boeing will address these problems professionally and quickly - they have to. But the character of these failures seems to me to be quite closely linked to the more-electric philosophy as well as the more composite airframe construction.

Don't lecture me. You don't know me and you never will. I never said that the A380 was unsafe. I merely was pointing out how foolish and petty babybus sounded by saying he would not fly the B787 due to these MINOR issues where nobody was in any danger (smoke, small fire while aircraft was on the ground, brake needing replacement). If I had to choose to be boarding one of these 787 "disaster flights" or the QF flight with the uncontained engine failure, I would go with the 787. Sorry. Thank God the QF incident was handled properly, but it could have ended very differently and we are also lucky that no shrapnel pierced the cabin. The recent problems show us that the B787 entry has not been perfect, but what aircraft EIS has been perfect? Why are we expecting the 787 to not have teething issues? That was the drive behind my post. babybus's statment was ridiculous.
 
spacecadet
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:18 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
At this point, it's still possible that the brakes reached their service limit...

Planes are not like cars, you don't go flying around until the check engine light comes on or your brakes start squeaking. Every part on an airplane has a scheduled maintenance interval. For some parts, that interval is longer than the projected service life of the airplane. For other parts, it's a relatively short number of hours or cycles (or both). But the point is the brakes have a scheduled maintenance interval; they're not supposed to need replacing just before a scheduled flight, with passengers already on board.

*This* is the kind of thing I'd call "teething problems", though. This kind of thing is a common occurrence on a new airplane. They set the maintenance interval for whatever it is, and it turns out this plane needed some brake parts replaced sooner. So, Boeing goes back and looks at the airplane's history, the parts in question (to check for manufacturing defects) and if everything looks ok, then they look to see if the maintenance intervals need to be changed. But the system worked to alert the pilots to the problem before the flight even left the gate, from what I gather, so it's not a safety issue. It is a maintenance issue, though; some part of that process did not work correctly, and they're going to need to find out what part of that process broke.
I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
 
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N14AZ
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:00 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 7):
Slamming the US and lifting up German products are the two things DER SPIEGEL does best.

I can assure you it's not that way. In general, Boeing has a good reputation in the German press. And even our German journalists are not that stupid to claim that Airbus has less issues with such incidents because even they know, the next Airbus issue will come, may it be the A 350 or another issue on the A 380 or whatsoever.

And by the way, SPIEGEL never ever has a positive word about the A 380, typically complaining about the extra apple trees they had to remove in Hamburg to extend the runway for the A 380F, which then was cancelled, that it will never break even and that nobody needs it in anyway, almost like certain a-netter  

And regarding this scary braking problem: funny, I escaped death today as well when my tram had an issue with the front door. I don't know how many casulties because I didn't dare to look behind me during evacuation. We had to wait 30 minutes for the next tram!!! I cannot report on the state of the front door - I think it's grounded - but I will now celebrate my second birthday.
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 29):
The 787 was massively hyped, hugely late, long-awaited, then finally hailed as a huge leap forward in civil aerospace on entering service with an awful lot of fanfare. It's going to be under a microscope for a while for fairly natural and obvious reasons - so get used to it. Please just stop it with all the 'this is ridiculous' and 'why is this news' nonsense

This is true.....
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
ABpositive
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:48 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 11):
Quoting PlaneInsomniac (Reply 6):
Three Breakdowns in Three Days

How many 320s and 737s have gone tech in the last 3 days? (rhetorical)

What you need to take into account though is that statistically speaking there are by far more 320s and 737s out there. Those are much more mature products and so don't warrant the same level of scrutiny that a new 787 does. I feel safer flying knowing that any possible issues are identified and corrected early in production.
 
pygmalion
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:19 am

There are 46+ 787 in service. Its not like there are only a handful flying around.

An anti skid controller or a brake controller box going bad and requirng replacement is not that uncommon on ANY modern aircraft, electrical or hydraulic actuated. If they had the LRU box on site, they probably could have dispatched after a short delay... per the article they didnt have the part. these arent automobile brakes. all modern airliners have computer controlled braking systems, you cant dispatch on manual. There are no cables or master cylinders on aircraft brakes.
 
737tdi
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 31):
Planes are not like cars, you don't go flying around until the check engine light comes on or your brakes start squeaking. Every part on an airplane has a scheduled maintenance interval. For some parts, that interval is longer than the projected service life of the airplane. For other parts, it's a relatively short number of hours or cycles (or both). But the point is the brakes have a scheduled maintenance interval; they're not supposed to need replacing just before a scheduled flight, with passengers already on board




Aircraft brakes are "on condition only". I.E. Leaking, worn, excessive grabbing etc.. Aircraft brake Inspections are on a "scheduled maintenance interval" but the outcome of these inspections is up to the tech. doing the inspecting. We change brakes every few weeks on turns. Its not a big deal unless you don't have a brake. We also have anti-skid and auto brake issues on a regular basis. We fix the problem if we have the parts, if not it is determined whether it is a deferrable discrepancy or the flight must be cancelled.

This has to be the lamest post on a maintenance problem ever. Not attacking or defending. Aircraft component failure is and will always be part of flying, be it Boeing, Airbus, AN, or even Gulfstream.

As far as CELs we see them everyday, may not say "check engine". It is of course a bit more specific but we still see it everyday. Oil, electric, pneumatic, fuel it is always something. It it didn't happen I would not be needed and would be working elsewhere. JMOs
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting pygmalion (Reply 35):
There are no cables or master cylinders on aircraft brakes.

Strange. I work on two aircraft that both have mechanical linkages/cables going to the respective brake control valves/metering valves/etc etc. One's 50 years old, one was designed in the semi-modern era.  
MSgt, USAF
KC-135R / C-17A Pneudraulic Systems Mechanic Supervisor
 
737tdi
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 37):
Quoting pygmalion (Reply 35):
There are no cables or master cylinders on aircraft brakes.

Strange. I work on two aircraft that both have mechanical linkages/cables going to the respective brake control valves/metering valves/etc etc. One's 50 years old, one was designed in the semi-modern era.




Doesn't it all fall back on "what you call modern?" The 737NG is certainly not a modern design but is modern just due to the fact they are still being built and sold as new. Same with most aircraft, they may not have a "master cylinder" but they have something that is very similar. Hydraulics is the same basic principle no matter if its on a car or the most advanced aircraft, apply pressure to a stationary part to a rotating part, create friction and slow the device or vice verse. Granted electric brakes are beginning to be used on aircraft, it is not a new technology. Locomotives have been using the system for years.

To be honest, electricity is hydraulic. It creates pressure, it creates heat, it creates flow and resistance. The only difference is that it does not follow the laws of "fluid dynamics". I can remember the first time I really started understanding electricity was by comparing it to water supply systems using valves to switches. Realize this was 40 years ago and studying electronics and is how I got it straight in my mind. There are discrepancies in the theory but they are very similar. Sorry for the blast to the past but if it helps.

I have left a ton of theory and fact out here but don't read into it. Technology is not near as far advanced from 50 years ago (hydraulics). Just alot of control has been inserted.
 
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glideslope
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting bohica (Reply 15):

So an airplane has a routine mechanical problem which cannot be fixed until they get the part. Someone needs to explain to me why this is newsworthy.

LOL, even better. "Aircraft Displays Failure Warning on Systems Status." Part to be flown in next day. PAX put on different frame, and reached destination 3 hrs late".

Dang, never seen that one before. People need to relax. Too much Drama.   

[Edited 2013-01-09 18:54:29]

[Edited 2013-01-09 18:56:20]
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
skinnerde
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:00 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 7):
Of course DER SPIEGEL is running such a series! The Germans have every reason to promote the Boeing 787 as a failure. Because with it, DER SPIEGEL has more opportunity to label the US as a failure, especially US manufacturing, and at the same time promote a European (largely German) product. Slamming the US and lifting up German products are the two things DER SPIEGEL does best.

in fact spiegel also bashes the a380 whenever possible...so not a us manufacturer problem.

i always get angry when i read an aviation related news there...
 
hb88
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Reply 27):

Quoting hb88 (Reply 26):

I never said that , you quoted the wrong person. But thanks for the lecture  

Oops, sorry. Hmm, how did that happen...  
 
hb88
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting mfe777 (Reply 29):

Quoting hb88 (Reply 26):
rotfl - knowing the actual issues with the A380, "

Don't lecture me. You don't know me and you never will. I never said that the A380 was unsafe. I merely was pointing out how foolish and petty babybus sounded by saying he would not fly the B787 due to these MINOR issues where nobody was in any danger (smoke, small fire while aircraft was on the ground, brake needing replacement). If I had to choose to be boarding one of these 787 "disaster flights" or the QF flight with the uncontained engine failure, I would go with the 787. Sorry. Thank God the QF incident was handled properly, but it could have ended very differently and we are also lucky that no shrapnel pierced the cabin. The recent problems show us that the B787 entry has not been perfect, but what aircraft EIS has been perfect? Why are we expecting the 787 to not have teething issues? That was the drive behind my post. babybus's statment was ridiculous.

You seemed uninformed in relation to your comparison with the A380, so I was pointing out some useful information. I don't need to know you, I just read your post. I think any casual reader of your original post would have concluded that you think the 380 is unsafe ("wing cracks, exploding engines" etc).

Anyway, in answer to your question, I think you are qualitatively wrong. Some aircraft *do* have a worse EIS than others. This is measured in dispatch reliability vs time and the qualitative aspects of the EIS. For example, it is widely known that the A340 did not have most ideal EIS. On the other hand, the 380 has been generally good (although I think dispatch reliability is targeted for improvement). Absolute perfection in EIS/dispatch reliability is not a realistic objective (although it would of course be nice). The question is do the issues bring the aircraft below a specified safety threshold or into the realm of poor economics due to poor d/r.

To be completely frank, right now, I would be a teeny, tiny, little bit nervous flying the 787 given the small number of airframes flying and the current frequency of these problems. Not that I would not fly on it, it would just... give me 'pause to think' under some circumstances. Also, if I knew a 787 I was about to board was going to suffer an inflight cabin fire, and the alternative was boarding an A380 which would suffer an uncontained disk failure, sorry, but I would board the 380 in a flash. No contest.
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting hb88 (Reply 41):
Also, if I knew a 787 I was about to board was going to suffer an inflight cabin fire, and the alternative was boarding an A380 which would suffer an uncontained disk failure, sorry, but I would board the 380 in a flash. No contest.

I wouldn't board either. *shrug*
 
RussianJet
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:09 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
I wouldn't board either. *shrug*

Hehe. I'm guessing that a hypothetical gun was being held to the head and a choice between the two was unavoidable. But yes, ideally I'd give both of those situations a miss too.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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Stitch
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
I'm guessing that a hypothetical gun was being held to the head and a choice between the two was unavoidable.

In that case, since an A380 has experienced an unconfined disk failure and a 787 has not experienced an inflight cabin fire, I'd take the 787.  
 
UALWN
Posts: 2176
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 44):
In that case, since an A380 has experienced an unconfined disk failure and a 787 has not experienced an inflight cabin fire, I'd take the 787.  

Well, I'd rather avoid any of those situations. However, since the A380 has indeed had an unconfined disk failure resulting in very substantial damage to engines, control systems, etc, and still managed to land without putting anybody's life in danger, I think I'd rather take the A380.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380
 
mfe777
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:35 am

RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting hb88 (Reply 41):

You seemed uninformed in relation to your comparison with the A380, so I was pointing out some useful information. I don't need to know you, I just read your post. I think any casual reader of your original post would have concluded that you think the 380 is unsafe ("wing cracks, exploding engines" etc).

Anyway, in answer to your question, I think you are qualitatively wrong. Some aircraft *do* have a worse EIS than others. This is measured in dispatch reliability vs time and the qualitative aspects of the EIS. For example, it is widely known that the A340 did not have most ideal EIS. On the other hand, the 380 has been generally good (although I think dispatch reliability is targeted for improvement). Absolute perfection in EIS/dispatch reliability is not a realistic objective (although it would of course be nice). The question is do the issues bring the aircraft below a specified safety threshold or into the realm of poor economics due to poor d/r.

To be completely frank, right now, I would be a teeny, tiny, little bit nervous flying the 787 given the small number of airframes flying and the current frequency of these problems. Not that I would not fly on it, it would just... give me 'pause to think' under some circumstances. Also, if I knew a 787 I was about to board was going to suffer an inflight cabin fire, and the alternative was boarding an A380 which would suffer an uncontained disk failure, sorry, but I would board the 380 in a flash. No contest.

There has never been a cabin fire in the 787, on the ground or in-flight. Your comparison is like asking whether you want to be on Swissair 111 or QF32. Might as well compare unicorns to space aliens.
 
PITingres
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting hb88 (Reply 41):
To be completely frank, right now, I would be a teeny, tiny, little bit nervous flying the 787 given the small number of airframes flying and the current frequency of these problems.

50 inservice frames, several operating for more than a year, with something on the order of 40,000 revenue flight hours? (That's my off-the-cuff estimate, the actual number might well be higher.) That's a "small number of airframes flying?"

There is clearly at least one thing wrong with the 787 that needs to be fixed, even if it's as simple as better detection of manufacturing defects in a subsystem. Feel free to be nervous about that, if you like, but it's not like these are the first few 787's delivered and they are all failing off the factory floor.
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
pygmalion
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RE: ANA 787 Braking Problem

Fri Jan 11, 2013 5:06 pm

press release from Boeing yesterday said 50,000 hours and averaging 150 flights a day.