JetBlueGuy2006
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Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:12 pm

Ex-TWA flight attendants, while admitting they made some mistakes with regards to when TWA merged with AA, are now worried about what will happen if AA merges with US. From what I see, this also has a bit to do with politics, as they were looking for a legislative route, and one of the US Senators they were working with is backing off.

http://thehill.com/blogs/transportat...ther-members-to-resolve-union-flap
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:08 pm

I don't understand why the Senate is responsible for undoing the last 12 years for these flight attendants. In addition, they're attempting to negotiate a solution in Missouri which is a de-facto right-to-work state.
 
sccutler
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:10 pm

Always amusing to see articles such as this - there was no "merger" between AA and TWA; AA purchased the assets of TWA. Completely different deal.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:34 pm

Make no doubt the USAA (if it happens) will lead to north of 10,000 layoffs. Virtually every member of AA management will be gone, some redundant support staff at HDQ that do not have seniority job protection, and sadly the vast majority of TW employees who have a much lower occupational seniority then company seniority.
 
sccutler
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 2):
I don't understand why the Senate is responsible for undoing the last 12 years for these flight attendants. In addition, they're attempting to negotiate a solution in Missouri which is a de-facto right-to-work state.

State labor laws relate little to airline employees, whose rights are defined by the Railway Labor Act.

But to your first point, you're correct- they're trying to get a live chicken from a fried and half-eaten egg.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:40 pm

This is sort of a comical vignette of what is wrong with unions--infighting, unrealistic expectations, fickle political connections... I can't believe there are any TW FAs left that think there's still an opportunity with AA.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 4):
Make no doubt the USAA (if it happens) will lead to north of 10,000 layoffs. Virtually every member of AA management will be gone, some redundant support staff at HDQ that do not have seniority job protection, and sadly the vast majority of TW employees who have a much lower occupational seniority then company seniority.

Never mind the huge reductions at US
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jayunited
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:56 pm

I don't think congress or the senate can resolve this TWA issue. AA was wrong for throwing TWA employees to the back of the line but AA bought TWA so they did whatever they wanted to TWA employees.

I think it will be interesting to watch this merger (if approved and it will be) because US still needs to finish merging the seniority list they already have between the East and the West. One thing is for sure once (if) this merger happens not everyone is going to be happy, ex-HP and ex-TWA employees are going to have a fight on their hands to have their voices heard against the powerful AA and US employees.
 
michman
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 7):
I don't think congress or the senate can resolve this TWA issue. AA was wrong for throwing TWA employees to the back of the line but AA bought TWA so they did whatever they wanted to TWA employees.

From the article, it appears that it was the APFA that had them stapled to the bottom of the list, not AA itself. I doubt AA much cared how the TWA FA's were integrated. More likely, it was the AA FA's that wanted them at the bottom.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Thread starter):

Well duh, Clearly the APFA is going to be more than willing to sell them right up the river, again, if they get the chance.

Never mind for the rest...I wont even go there.

[Edited 2013-01-09 09:19:23]
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BDL757
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 4):

How many F/A's do you think would be furloughed? I'm asking because the new airline would have roughly the same amount of planes and also usually the F/A contract will stipulate that there can be no furloughs as a result of the merger.
 
777STL
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 9):
How many F/A's do you think would be furloughed?

Isn't AA currently hiring F/As or will be in the very near future? The n00bies would be the first to go in the event of furloughs as they'd have less seniority than the ex-TW F/As. That's assuming there'd be furloughs in the first place, which is far from a short thing. And that's also completely ignoring the US side of the house in such an event.
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JoePatroni707
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:14 pm

Quoting BDL757 (Reply 9):
How many F/A's do you think would be furloughed? I'm asking because the new airline would have roughly the same amount of planes and also usually the F/A contract will stipulate that there can be no furloughs as a result of the merger.

Way to early to tell. Even IF a merger were announced today, it would be 18-24 months before the slightest hint of integration would occurr. IF and WHEN that happens you can bet the new management team be it AA or US will want to lower costs, and have junior employees. So almost 99% sure more buyouts will be offered to get the more senior workforce out, then that will lead to less layoffs.

Ya never know what will happen down the road.  
 
bobnwa
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 2):
Always amusing to see articles such as this - there was no "merger" between AA and TWA; AA purchased the assets of TWA. Completely different deal.


Whether it was a merger or a purchase it was still an underhanded way to handle the TW employees by moving them all to the bottom of the seniority lists
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting michman (Reply 7):
From the article, it appears that it was the APFA that had them stapled to the bottom of the list, not AA itself.

AA couldn't have anything to do with it by contract; it was the APFA and only them. Always helping out their union brethren 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 12):
Whether it was a merger or a purchase it was still an underhanded way to handle the TW employees by moving them all to the bottom of the seniority lists

AA could have done nothing and sent them all the the unemployment line when TW filed CH7
 
YYZbound
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:00 pm

BTW...we at Reno Air were ALSO put at the bottom of the seniority list at AA...and I don't remember anyone feeling terribly sorry for us

...after two failed lawsuits of our own, we've moved on just fine and have lived happy, fulfilled lives
 
BDL757
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 11):

Exactly. I don't really see what the former TWA flight attendants are worrying about since the majority of the layoffs would most likely be at the c-suite level and at headquarters. Perhaps reservations would see some 'synergies' as well.
 
jayunited
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 14):

I agree AA could have let all TWA employees join the unemployment line but they didn't and since they didn't some of TWA's ex-senior flight attendants have been fighting ever since to have their seniority honored. And in an industry where seniority means everything forcing AA and the union to honor all the years they spent at TWA (something that I'm sure will never happen) could mean better lines, an increase in pay, extra weeks of vacation, all of these things and more are directly tied to an employees seniority. So I don't fault ex-TWA flight attendants for continuing to fight this battle but I agree they won't ever win this battle because although the union created this problem it is to AA's advantage (no pun intended) to see that the union wins because the alternative would cost AA money if their seniority was honored.
 
catiii
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:22 am

But I'm so confused. I thought unions were supposed to PROTECT your jobs!   
 
dcann40
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 12):
Whether it was a merger or a purchase it was still an underhanded way to handle the TW employees by moving them all to the bottom of the seniority lists

Why? American hired them as new employees and was generous enough to give them their pay based on TWA seniority (as well as vacation time). It's unfortunate that they had to be laid off but, for all intents and purposes, they were new employees.
 
catiii
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:17 am

Just as a reminder, AA didn't do anything. seniority integration is done by the unions.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:45 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 14):
AA could have done nothing and sent them all the the unemployment line when TW filed CH7

AA had nothing to do with it. At all. Nothing. i don't get why this has to be said 200 times.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 17):
an increase in pay, extra weeks of vacation,

read above.
Oh and IIRC the TWA employees kept their seniority for Pay/Benefits. Just Line holding that they got screwed on.

Quoting catiii (Reply 18):

The APFA did protect jobs, Just AA jobs. They did a dirty thing, but at the end of the day they did what was best for its members.
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strangr
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:23 am

I can not understand the relevance of EX-TWA, at what point do you turn around and say;

"Gee I've been EX-TWA for so long that maybe I want to call myself an AA employee"

Maybe it is me, but i am sure if Qantas over here had a merger chance a small right wing faction would not call themselves the EX-TAA flight crew. After all TWA went belly up in 2001 after 2 prior attempts at CH11.
 
HPRamper
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:20 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 6):
I think it will be interesting to watch this merger (if approved and it will be) because US still needs to finish merging the seniority list they already have between the East and the West.

A merger with AA would expedite the process. The current stalemate would be broken - it is disingenuous to say that US needs to finish merging the seniority list when they cannot do anything to solve the situation, and when a possible merger presents an obvious fix.
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:42 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 21):
AA had nothing to do with it. At all. Nothing. i don't get why this has to be said 200 times.

AA had nothing to do with the aquisition of TWA???? I would love to hear your explanation on this one!
 
commavia
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 24):
AA had nothing to do with the aquisition of TWA???? I would love to hear your explanation on this one!

I believe he was referring specifically to the SLI (seniority list integration) of the flight attendants, not the overall merger in general.

Nonetheless, I don't know if I necessarily agree with his assessment. It is true that ultimate responsible for combining the lists rested with the union, which was of course looking out primarily for the interests of AA FAs (i.e., its then-current voting/dues-paying members), but my understanding is that AA essentially came to TWA's unions and gave them a take-it-or-leave-it choice - either accept what AA (and really by extension what AA's unions) were offering, or liquidate. There may not have been explicit cooperation between the company and the APFA on that, but the situation certainly aligned their interests. Indeed, that may have actually been the last time the company and APFA actually cooperated on anything (even if just implicitly).

And to be clear - I'm not saying this to place blame or criticize anyone. The situation in general was very difficult and complicated. What happened to the TWA FAs (and other employees) was unfortunate, but on the flip side AA's FAs did work for the stronger company that wasn't liquidating. I also tend to subscribe to the argument that the TWA employees would likely have lost their jobs altogether sooner or later, anyway, as TWA was by that point on the verge of collapse. Some have speculated that the company may have literally had just weeks by that point. Given that, the AA acquisition probably prolonged the inevitable for at least a year or two for many TWA employees.

As for the APFA - it's understandable, if perhaps not so admirable, why they behaved the way they did. The APFA (like any union) is an inherently political organization, and as such its responsibility is first and foremost to its constituents. Just as how no Senator or President will stick his neck out too far for blocs of voters they know will never vote for them, the APFA's primary concern back in 2001 was for their own current members at that time, who were of course all AA. I realize that post-merger TWA's FAs were APFA, too, but they were overall a tiny group and there's strength in numbers. May not be pretty, but that's politics, and that's reality.

As for the implications of all of this on the current situation, I suspect that much of the drama of AA-TWA union integration will likely get washed away if a merger occurs, dwarfed by the larger issues now at hand, just like the far larger and more complex (if somewhat more recent) drama of the USAirways-America West union integration. It is ironic, though, that the airlines unions (APA, APFA, USAPA, etc.) that have arguably had the most painful experiences integrating their workforces through mergers in the last decades are now contemplating combining themselves. Amazing.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Ex-TWA Flight Attendants Worry About US Merger

Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:43 pm

Quoting strangr (Reply 22):
Maybe it is me, but i am sure if Qantas over here had a merger chance a small right wing faction would not call themselves the EX-TAA flight crew. After all TWA went belly up in 2001 after 2 prior attempts at CH11.

Well My guess is if you were the one who got screwed, to the point of majorly effecting your life by "your union" you would be complaining too. Of course, on the outside looking in its very easy to make comments.

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):

I believe he was referring specifically to the SLI (seniority list integration) of the flight attendants, not the overall merger in general.

I was, I'll type slower next time.   

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
And to be clear - I'm not saying this to place blame or criticize anyone. The situation in general was very difficult and complicated. What happened to the TWA FAs (and other employees) was unfortunate, but on the flip side AA's FAs did work for the stronger company that wasn't liquidating. I also tend to subscribe to the argument that the TWA employees would likely have lost their jobs altogether sooner or later, anyway, as TWA was by that point on the verge of collapse. Some have speculated that the company may have literally had just weeks by that point. Given that, the AA acquisition probably prolonged the inevitable for at least a year or two for many TWA employees.

Thankfully it can't happen again. Very disappointing the NMB didn't step in back then.

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):

As for the APFA - it's understandable, if perhaps not so admirable, why they behaved the way they did. The APFA (like any union) is an inherently political organization, and as such its responsibility is first and foremost to its constituents. Just as how no Senator or President will stick his neck out too far for blocs of voters they know will never vote for them, the APFA's primary concern back in 2001 was for their own current members at that time, who were of course all AA. I realize that post-merger TWA's FAs were APFA, too, but they were overall a tiny group and there's strength in numbers. May not be pretty, but that's politics, and that's reality.

They did protect the AA F/As. Regardless it was very dirty and it would be nice to see Karma come get them.

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
Nonetheless, I don't know if I necessarily agree with his assessment. It is true that ultimate responsible for combining the lists rested with the union, which was of course looking out primarily for the interests of AA FAs (i.e., its then-current voting/dues-paying members), but my understanding is that AA essentially came to TWA's unions and gave them a take-it-or-leave-it choice - either accept what AA (and really by extension what AA's unions) were offering, or liquidate. There may not have been explicit cooperation between the company and the APFA on that, but the situation certainly aligned their interests. Indeed, that may have actually been the last time the company and APFA actually cooperated on anything (even if just implicitly).

Maybe, but I think that was more of the shotgun wedding, hurry up and get it done than anything else. Also, IIRC(like i said) the TWA pilots and FAs did keep their TWA hire date for pay/benefits, so it really didn't save the company any money.

Of course I could be wrong, because I don't really remember. I just don't see a point to even keep the job if your going to have to start over complete. (of course it didn't matter because most of them got laid-off fallowing 9/11)
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