fcogafa
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200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:06 am

Being reported that RYR are talking to Boeing about 200 more B737s

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...ng-for-200-new-planes-3347205.html
 
Avi8r747
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:09 am

Good news for the MAX!
It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together!
 
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EPA001
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:11 am

All these hugh numbers for new NB-airplanes from Air Asia, Lion Air, Ryanair, Easyjet, etc, etc, etc. We are almost getting used to them but 10 years ago that number would have made huge waves in the aviation world. Now we are just picking it up here on A-net. Times do change.  
 
chiad
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:15 am

Quoting Avi8r747 (Reply 1):
Good news for the MAX!

Well ... remember it's Ryanair.
I don't know if they are good for anyone, including air framers, employees nor passenger
Anyway ... Boeing certainly wont be "raped" again .. or will they?
 
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Stitch
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:32 am

Boeing and Ryanair have been talking for years about a 200 frame order, so stands to reason they'll eventually come to an agreement and sign the deal.
 
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rotating14
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:35 am

Guess that " Old dog" isn't so bad after all!!
 
flood
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:42 am

Quoting Chiad (Reply 3):
Well ... remember it's Ryanair.

At least with Ryanair Boeing can depend on them taking up their frames. This as opposed to Lion Air, where I'm not quite as optimistic  

But I guess both OEMs will be in the same boat, to some extent.

From the article: "as the low-cost airline's fleet is poised to reach 300 Boeing 737-800 jets later this year."

Their website indicates 275 in the fleet. Didn't they recently take delivery of their last aircraft? I was under the impression all their frames were on direct order, rather than leased.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 2):
All these hugh numbers for new NB-airplanes from Air Asia, Lion Air, Ryanair, Easyjet, etc, etc,

It's amazing to think NEO and MAX are already pushing a combined 3000 firm orders. Didn't take long. But I would really like to see is the first African airline place an order for either one.
 
Avi8r747
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting Chiad (Reply 3):

you know, I thought of that just after I posted that   
It's an entirely different kind of flying; all together!
 
PH-BFA
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:59 am

With more than 3000(!!) 737's (NG and MAX) in its backlog and no suitable alternatives, Boeing will have a good laugh this time...
 
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yyz717
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:07 am

Agree that Boeing is more in the driver's seat with this potential order than before. It will mean higher unit prices for FR and MOL may bitch and whine privately (let's hope publicly also  ).

Quoting flood (Reply 6):
Their website indicates 275 in the fleet.

FR currently operates 305 738's. 350 were ordered. All delivered. 45 have left the FR fleet.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Airboe
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:25 am

Hi

Delivery in 2015/16/17 - so it is not the MAX.

And that makes a lot of sense to me, - BCA need to fill the orderbook to bridge the production until the MAX is up and running out of the doors.

I am sure BCA not will be raped again by MOL (Who would like to be???   ) , but a fair and reasonable price could be a win-win for both.

KR
keep it free of the propellers
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:27 am

Huge Order.....Seems like Boeing has their reliable customers......
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sirtoby
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:41 am

Boeing has about 1000 slots to fill for the NG until the MAX takes over full production in 2020 maybe - so I guess Ryanait will (again) get a good pricing level for these aircraft.
 
oldeuropean
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:56 am

Guys, we are talking about Ryanair here!

I believe it when I see it.   
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
PH-BFA
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:16 am

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 12):

Maybe if FR wants the the aircraft delivered in 2019-2020, however they want them in 2015-2017. Currently there are 2000 NGs still to be delivered (4 years of production). Moreover 2012 has seen the highest number of NG orders ever, so I guess it will be pretty hard to convincw Boeing to give them a bargain price again...
 
bueb0g
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:12 am

Quoting Chiad (Reply 3):
I don't know if they are good for anyone, including air framers, employees nor passenger

It's a good thing. Good for the jobs market, good for employees because expansion = demand, good for Boeing (as long as they don't sell them at silly prices again), and good for passengers who want to fly with them. If you don't want to then it doesn't affect you. A big order like this in Europe is a win-win-win, hopefully we'll see it appear soon.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
MEA-707
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:15 am

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 14):
Currently there are 2000 NGs still to be delivered (4 years of production).

That's not a problem at all, Boeing will be delighted to get more NG orders to bridge the 2015-2018 gap. If you look at the orderbook, there are some soft orders, like 46 737-700s for Aviation Capital Group ACG and 127 700s for Southwest, probably also some of the 75 for ALC (Air Lease Corporation), no way they will (all) be built, some will eventually be converted to later MAX orders. Same way that United is quietly converting their old 700/900 orders to later MAX-es.
Really, there are still 261 open 737-700 orders but seeing how unpopular the aircraft was in the last 2 years, my bet is that there will only be 20 more built of these at the most, not 261.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
United885
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:20 am

Probably they will use them to replace their first 737´s. As I remember, they are from 2002. so they would have an age of about at least 13 years when the 200 frames will be delivered from 2015.
I haven´t been everywhere, but it´s on my list.
 
SeJoWa
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:43 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 13):
Guys, we are talking about Ryanair here!

I believe it when I see it.

You'll have to pay a fee for that!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:44 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 13):
Guys, we are talking about Ryanair here!

I believe it when I see it.

Any reason for the doubt.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
JerseyFlyer
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:05 pm

They like to buy cheap.

I can see them taking a lot of thr very last B737NGs off the line.
 
davidho1985
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:08 pm

Any Boeing will not need to worry about Ryanair dumping their 737 which affect the price that Boeing can quote to other airlines anymore.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:11 pm

This is the usual FR manipulation of the media, which have either too short attention span or are just plain stupid enough to play along.
"Boeing have plenty of availability in the order book," Mr O'leary said. "We are in the fairly early stages of talks to see if we can reach an agreement on price."
So basically nothing new, they have been at this early stage for what, 2 years? Airbus told them to shove it, they do not want to be used as a leverage against Boeing and Boeing does not want to be "raped" again.
Other thean the usual Goebbelesque propaganda by the O'Clown himself about supposedly being "inundated" by request from airports to deal with his low-class airline and taking cheap shots at SAS and LOT... what REALLY new is there to report?

[Edited 2013-01-10 05:22:16]
 
AirframeAS
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:13 pm

Quoting Avi8r747 (Reply 1):
Good news for the MAX!

Nowhere did that article say they ordered the Max. The article mentions the 737-800 totaling to 300 planes, and a delivery timeframe (2015-2017) when the Max is introduced, but the article doesn't say that they went with the Max.

Read the article, please.
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SEPilot
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:36 pm

Quoting airboe (Reply 10):
And that makes a lot of sense to me, - BCA need to fill the orderbook to bridge the production until the MAX is up and running out of the doors.

From the way the current order book looks, and the way that airlines seem to be seeking new planes that they can get soon, I doubt that Boeing will have to submit to any more "raping" to keep the assembly lines running, unless the whole world economy tanks (a really definite possibility), in which case everyone will be in trouble and all bets will be off. According to what I have read, the issue holding up a deal between MOL and Boeing has not been price but MOL's right to resell the aircraft. I recall MOL making a statement in the past that they agreed on price but Boeing was insisting that Ryanair could not resell the aircraft before a certain time, and MOL was objecting. The article says nothing about that.
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ODwyerPW
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting flood (Reply 6):
This as opposed to Lion Air, where I'm not quite as optimistic

Lion Air has ordered a total of 408 NG/MAX planes. They have already recieved 79 of them. Beginning in Sept 2011, they began taking them at a rate of 2 per month.... At that rate, 24 per year, It would take them to late 2026 to take all of the planes. As these newer planes come in and are slated for replacement of earlier xisting aircraft, rather than route expansion, we can expect the delivery rate to increase somewhat. So, it is foreseable that Lion Air could have all of these planes before 2025 in reality.

Ryan Air ordered their first 737s directly from boeing in 1998. It has taken them all the way to 2013 (14-15 years) to receive the aircraft. Some 348 planes. (I think they also picked up used frames on the open market at some point didn't they? But that is another discussion.)
learning never stops.
 
sirtoby
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 14):
Moreover 2012 has seen the highest number of NG orders ever, so I guess it will be pretty hard to convincw Boeing to give them a bargain price again...

I see only about 260 orders for the NG in 2012 - the rest was for the MAX!
They had more than 500 in 2010 and 475 in 2011...
 
blueflyer
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:24 pm

For all the fears that Boeing might or might not get "raped" again, it is worth remembering that Boeing and Ryanair did agree to a price the last time they decided to talk seriously.

The reason no deal was done is because they couldn't agree on other contractual terms, specifically Ryanair wanted the right to resell the aircraft far earlier than Boeing was willing to let them. In essence Ryanair wanted to dump them on the used market as soon as any type of significant maintenance was due but Boeing wasn't willing to let barely-used aircraft compete with brand-new aircraft...
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Semaex
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:20 pm

Where the heck do they get all those pilots from? 200 aircraft are easily 1000 pilots!
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
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Stitch
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 27):
For all the fears that Boeing might or might not get "raped" again, it is worth remembering that Boeing and Ryanair did agree to a price the last time they decided to talk seriously.

And ten years on what was once "rape" is now "foreplay" - as in just about anyone ordering a score or more 737NGs can expect 50% off the list price.
 
ely747
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:02 pm

Not quite sure who should I feel more sorry for ... Pax or Boeing

[Edited 2013-01-10 11:05:51]
 
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scbriml
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Read the article, please.

The article makes it clear that NO order has been placed.
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GCT64
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:13 pm

When the last of the current order was delivered, I wondered what the FR plan would be. They have gone from 2(ish) new 738s per month to zero so the average age of the fleet is now increasing far quicker (unless they rapidly shrink by selling older 738s and not taking any replacements).

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 20):
They like to buy cheap.
I can see them taking a lot of thr very last B737NGs off the line.

I think this is likely to be the FR game plan: Make Boeing an offer it doesn't really like but can't refuse for the last 200 738NGs (or 200 of the last 400) because no other airlines will want them (everyone else will want MAXs).
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bueb0g
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:25 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 28):
Where the heck do they get all those pilots from? 200 aircraft are easily 1000 pilots!

FR can easily hire 1,000 pilots over a few years if they want. There are enough prospective/unemployed/student pilots to fill the void. FR's a good airline to fly for and anyone (at least, any low hour pilot - and they really only hire low hour pilots, through the CAE SSTR scheme) would be stupid to turn down an opportunity with them. Believe me, finding the crew won't be an issue (although they may have to increase some T&Cs if they want rapid expansion).

Quoting ely747 (Reply 30):
Not quite sure who should I feel more sorry for ... Pax or Boeing

How about neither? Boeing will only sell if they're happy, and pax will only fly if they want to.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:37 pm

A win-win order, better for Boeing if they were later 738s though...

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 12):
Boeing has about 1000 slots to fill for the NG until the MAX takes over full production in 2020 maybe - so I guess Ryanait will (again) get a good pricing level for these aircraft.
Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 14):

Quoting sirtoby (Reply 12):

Maybe if FR wants the the aircraft delivered in 2019-2020, however they want them in 2015-2017. Currently there are 2000 NGs still to be delivered (4 years of production). Moreover 2012 has seen the highest number of NG orders ever, so I guess it will be pretty hard to convincw Boeing to give them a bargain price again...

I have to agree that FR went for early delivery. Later delivery would have great pricing. These... will be good.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 33):
finding the crew won't be an issue (although they may have to increase some T&Cs if they want rapid expansion).

I expect FR has already done the math and will pick up their pilots at the current or a slightly improved pay scale. How many would be replacements anyway? I think it will be more like 400 to 700 pilots.

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 32):
Make Boeing an offer it doesn't really like but can't refuse for the last 200 738NGs (or 200 of the last 400) because no other airlines will want them (everyone else will want MAXs).

   Even at a small profit, it is worth it for Boeing. FR needs aircraft, but this gives them the supply to negotiate harder for their last few hundred NGs and first few hundred MAXs.

Who buys used FR 738s? I'm sure there is a market, I would like to know the homes.


Lightsaber
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KaiTak747
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:44 pm

Do they really need 200 more aircraft? The current age of the 737-800s must be about 5 years old. Many are parked in the winter due to lack of demand/over capacity. Where are they going to place 200 more NBs? I know they are planning to keep a young, maintenance cheap fleet but it's a while until the current fleet will need replacing. They are making a good profit and have a very slick operation (regardless of the passenger experience!!) so I think they will wait until they get a great price on the MAX or NEO in several years.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:59 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Who buys used FR 738s? I'm sure there is a market, I would like to know the homes.

CanJet, GOL, Garuda, ETH, OrenAir, Spice Jet, Moscow Airlines
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting Avi8r747 (Reply 1):
Good news for the MAX!
Quoting flood (Reply 6):
It's amazing to think NEO and MAX are already pushing a combined 3000 firm orders.
Quoting airboe (Reply 10):
Delivery in 2015/16/17 - so it is not the MAX.

Correct, this is not a B-737MAX order, if it materializes.

FR likes to fly their B-738s for several years, then sell them for more than they originally paid Boeing for them. That is what has Boeing upset. I am sure Boeing will demand a claus in the next contract that FR cannot sell the new airplanes for more than they paid Boeing for them.

Boeing might also let FR switch some of these orders to B-737-8MAX/-9MAX later at a reasonable price increase ove the B-738NG models. That will be what MOL really wants for the later delivered airplanes.
 
ely747
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:14 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 33):

Flying used to be glamour but is no longer with bully FR on scene. Boeing's long term revenue is suffering too.

[Edited 2013-01-10 15:17:27]
 
AirframeAS
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:51 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 31):

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 23):
Read the article, please.

The article makes it clear that NO order has been placed.


I never said it did. I was paraphrasing what the article said since only a select few actually read the article.
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lightsaber
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:58 am

So what ever happened to FR and the C919.   I double dog dare MOL to bet FR's future on that plane.     

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Who buys used FR 738s? I'm sure there is a market, I would like to know the homes.

CanJet, GOL, Garuda, ETH, OrenAir, Spice Jet, Moscow Airlines

Thank you.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
mffoda
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting ely747 (Reply 38):
Boeing's long term revenue is suffering too.

Perhaps you would like to explain this a bit further? Most financial analysts seem to say the opposite.   
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
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yyz717
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Who buys used FR 738s? I'm sure there is a market, I would like to know the homes.
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Who buys used FR 738s? I'm sure there is a market, I would like to know the homes.

CanJet, GOL, Garuda, ETH, OrenAir, Spice Jet, Moscow Airlines

Also MIAT, Sun Express.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
phxa340
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:11 pm

Hopefully someone can help me out on this one. Many members continuously state that Boeing got rapped on the FR deal yet the Air Asia deal for 320s and 737 WN deal included almost identical discounts - how come the discrepancy ? I'm legitimately asking ...
 
WAC
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:51 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 41):

I would never trust a financial analyst. After all half the job function is about crystal balling what might (not) happen.

But looking at the natural logic of future expansion of the air travel market with increasing global wealth, it will mean more civilian aircraft. (However military contracts (especially US & European) for Boeing may an area where they might suffer).
 
mffoda
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting WAC (Reply 44):
I would never trust a financial analyst. After all half the job function is about crystal balling what might (not) happen.

But looking at the natural logic of future expansion of the air travel market with increasing global wealth, it will mean more civilian aircraft. (However military contracts (especially US & European) for Boeing may an area where they might suffer).

Please feel free to do the Math yourself! Start with the production increases across the whole commercial line of aircraft.. And then offer your opinion as to how Boeing will / cannot make their numbers?
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
ely747
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 41):
Quoting mffoda (Reply 41):

As mentioned earlier, FR are quick to phase out their frames. 3 or 4 year old aircraft is relatively new. Taking into account the discount FR gets ( away with) from Boeing for buying in bulk, you find out that price per unit is far below what woluld someone else paid for ordering one or two new machines.

[Edited 2013-01-11 15:39:11]

[Edited 2013-01-11 15:40:20]
 
WAC
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 45):
Please feel free to do the Math yourself! Start with the production increases across the whole commercial line of aircraft.. And then offer your opinion as to how Boeing will / cannot make their numbers?

Well I did not say that they would not make their numbers.
I just dispute your affirmation that analysts opinions are the foundation of fact.
I said that the civilian side will mostly likely to grow however their lucrative and biggest share of revenues from defense contracts will likely drop.

Analysts are like the media, they love to exaggerate.

This is not just my opinion. Warren Buffett is also a critic of them along with many top financial experts,

Back on the topic. Most likely that FR will need more than 200 airplanes. FR are very good at what they do. Being cut throat and to the point.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting ely747 (Reply 46):
As mentioned earlier, FR are quick to phase out their frames. 3 or 4 year old aircraft is relatively new.

Although the info I have is not up to date, as of mid 2011 their oldest airplanes were 7 years old and all those past 7 had been sold--which at that time was a little over 20 airplanes. They're not getting rid of 3 or 4 year old airplanes.
 
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par13del
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RE: 200 More B737s For Ryanair?

Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 34):
Who buys used FR 738s? I'm sure there is a market, I would like to know the homes.

A number of airlines in the Third and Developing World, unfortunately, the rape usually works in the reverse, the lease companies rake those usually national airlines over the coals with pricing.