hotplane
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Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:48 pm

Ex Air India aircraft. Will they be 200LRs?

www.flightglobal.com/airspace/blogs/john_dyer/default.aspx
?
 
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redzeppelin
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:02 pm

Wow. Five 772s for PS! Rumors in the Ukraine aviation thread suggested 77L.
 
TC957
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:13 pm

77L should look nice in PS colours. Other than New York, wonder what other routes they have in mind for them.
 
WROORD
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
Other than New York, wonder what other routes they have in mind for them.

VV flew to YYZ, so I would imagine they would pick up that route as well.
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:30 am

They must have gotten these 77L's for a good price. Or else why bother with the -LR. It's not like PS needs the range for JFK or YYZ, or any other intl destination they plan on serving that wasn't already accessible by the 763.

Thenoflyzone
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kaitak
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:59 pm

No surprise that it's AI aircraft, since AI has been trying to get rid of these aircraft for quite a while and now, with VV out of the picture, PS can expand to some new routes. Presumably JFK, YYZ and PEK will be among the first routes and no doubt the 77L will find its way to DXB as well.

TK had been linked to these aircraft (rumour only), so I guess this deepens the rumour as to where TK will find the 777s it intends to lease in the short term.
 
irshava
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:56 pm

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 1):
Five 772s for PS! Rumors in the Ukraine aviation thread suggested 77L.

They are (still) rumored to be LRs...

And the destinations that they are looking at are : JFK, BKK, Beijing, and a few other cities in Asia (IIRC, something in Vietnam)
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
irshava
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:00 pm

Ukraine Aviation Thread #1 (by irshava Dec 28 2012 in Civil Aviation)

The thread and link to the articles.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
rutankrd
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:30 pm

They can only be 77L models if they are coming from Air India

Air India disposed of the early the 77A/77E models some time ago

VT- AIR the only 77A and ex United N766UA is in bits on shelves and in bins at Lourdes

VT-AIL a 77E and ex United N789UA is back in the USA operating with Omni as N918AX

VT-AIJ also a 77E and ex United N790UA is also back in the US and with Omni as N927AX

VT-AIK the final 77E and ex United N205UA is stored in Shannon in Transaero colours as EI-UNV.

[Edited 2013-01-12 07:35:23]
 
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Stitch
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
They must have gotten these 77L's for a good price. Or else why bother with the -LR. It's not like PS needs the range for JFK or YYZ, or any other intl destination they plan on serving that wasn't already accessible by the 763.

The majority of 777-200LR operators likely chose the model for it's payload-over-range and fuel-burn advantages over the 777-200ER and not because of it's longer range.
 
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flylku
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:28 pm

What is the crossover mission at which the LR is more efficient than the ER and how many of their potential missions exceed this stage length?
...are we there yet?
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:37 pm

.

Quoting flylku (Reply 10):

What is the crossover mission at which the LR is more efficient than the ER and how many of their potential missions exceed this stage length?

For equal payload, the point where the 77L surpasses the 77E is somewhere around 5800 NM.

Thenoflyzone
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RussianJet
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:44 pm

Good luck to them. I have found them to be a good, affordable carrier on the couple of experiences I have had with them. Nice to see them spreading their wings.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:48 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
fuel-burn advantages over the 777-200ER and not because of it's longer range.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
The majority of 777-200LR operators likely chose the model for it's payload-over-range and fuel-burn advantages over the 777-200ER and not because of it's longer range.

Sure, but you and me both know that is not why PS chose the AI 77Ls !

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
n471wn
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting irshava (Reply 6):

VT-AIK the final 77E and ex United N205UA is stored in Shannon in Transaero colours as EI-UNV.

It is techically not in storage but being prepared for service with Transaero
 
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Stitch
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:03 pm

Quoting flylku (Reply 10):
What is the crossover mission at which the LR is more efficient than the ER...
Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 11):
For equal payload, the point where the 77L surpasses the 77E is somewhere around 5800 NM.

I've heard it is closer to 2000nm.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 13):

I really want to know how much they paid...I bet they got fire sale prices.
What the...?
 
Thenoflyzone
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
I've heard it is closer to 2000nm.

If that was the case, there would be more than 58 LR's sold.

The 77E is still the most efficient machine under 5800 nm. (Again, same payload).

Thenoflyzone
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
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Stitch
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 17):
If that was the case, there would be more than 58 LR's sold.

By the time the 777-200LR entered revenue service, most people who needed a long-range 777-sized twin already had the 777-200ER in their fleet. Almost every 777-200LR customer was a customer new to the 777, so if the 777-200ER was more efficient out to it's MZFW (5800nm), one would think the 777-200LR's sales would be even less as those new customers would have chosen the 777-200ER.

widebodyphotog ran the numbers and he noted that:

Quote:
The improvement in TSFC, propulsive efficiency, and airframe L/D more than negate the drag penalty of the relatively small increase in structural weight of 777-200LR vs 777-200ER. Those improvements allow the airplane about a 3% better fuel burn/unit payload than 777-200ER at ranges beyond 2,000nm. At the design payload and range of the 777-200ER the 777-200LR need only takeoff at 665,000lbs, only 9,000lbs above the structural MTOW of 777-200ER. The difference in TOW's is significantly less than the difference in OEW of the two aircraft. This difference in TOW weights and the increase in OEW of 777-200LR is all fuel, which is a lower at that payload range point for 777-200LR. This lower fuel requirement is due entirely to the better airframe/engine performance of 777-200LR.
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):
I really want to know how much they paid...I bet they got fire sale prices.

Average value for 777-200KRs of AI's age would be between $105 and $113 million. AI appeared to be willing to hold out for a premium, so it seems somewhat unlikely that they would suddenly decide to "fire-sale" them.
 
slawko
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:56 am

AI wasn't holding out for a premium. No one wanted them because of the cost of getting them back in flying condition. The record keeping (or lack there of) especially for such new airplanes was in such a bad condition that you essentially had to go over every part. UIA has their work cut out for them. Hope we see them in YYZ for the summer at least.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
sweair
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:49 am

Isn't the GE-90-110 a more efficient engine than the -94? The 77L is just too much capability for most airlines, but if anyone would order a new 772 I guess the L is a better choice then the er, other than cost. There has been no new 200 orders for ever right?
 
kaitak
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:11 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 20):
There has been no new 200 orders for ever right?

ANA ordered a few, as compensation for the lateness of the 787s; I think they have about three left to be delivered.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting Slawko (Reply 19):
AI wasn't holding out for a premium. No one wanted them because of the cost of getting them back in flying condition. The record keeping (or lack there of) especially for such new airplanes was in such a bad condition that you essentially had to go over every part.

That charge was brought up in the original AI sale thread, but I seem to recall a number of members with contacts with AI Engineering stating that the paperwork was in fact up-to-spec.

As an aside, if the planes' maintenance records were in fact not maintained, could that have affected operations to the US and EU?

Many, myself included, believed it was the cost to convert the cabin from AI's standard to the new customer's was the main issue. Per an unreferenced link in Wikipedia, it is said the planes will be reconfigured from three classes to two, but perhaps PS will instead operate them in the AI configuration and save the costs.
 
sweair
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:45 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
but perhaps PS will instead operate them in the AI configuration and save the costs.

But how do they get rid of that curry smell?  
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
Many, myself included, believed it was the cost to convert the cabin from AI's standard to the new customer's was the main issue. Per an unreferenced link in Wikipedia, it is said the planes will be reconfigured from three classes to two, but perhaps PS will instead operate them in the AI configuration and save the costs.

I don't think UIA is as picky about the cabin features or decor as some. I flew on some of their 737's a few years ago and the interiors were stock from whomever they purchased the planes...down to the Spanish labels on everything.

I suspect they'll put the planes into service with the AI interiors, but paint the exterior, which I think is a smart move. The branding is on the outside of the plane...once you see the interior, you've already bought a ticket. Fly the plane as is and do the interior when you have the available cash.

[Edited 2013-01-13 10:49:08]
What the...?
 
na
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Average value for 777-200KRs of AI's age would be between $105 and $113 million. AI appeared to be willing to hold out for a premium, so it seems somewhat unlikely that they would suddenly decide to "fire-sale" them.

After trying to get rid of these planes for years now in some way or the other I wouldnt wonder if they are fed up and sold them whoever who wants them rather than wait another year or two for the white prince with the big checkbook. If Ukraine International took them it is a sign for me the price was rather low. High price or low, this will be some of the more cheap-looking 777s after being repainted.
 
Tdan
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:02 am

Oi, in 5 years, we'll be talking about the bankruptcy of Ukraine International if they go through with this! Why can't sound analysis rule the day over hubris? KBP-BKK is very cheap, KBP-JFK/YYZ is incredibly seasonal and KBP-PEK is about the only thing that could work since everything that goes to China these days seems to make money. I just don't see enough markets for five 777s, let alone LRs
We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
 
slawko
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:17 pm

If they got the 777's for next to nothing then they could in fact be cheaper to operate than the 767's. Further, they are literally in the middle of the European continent (if you count Russia as European   ) As such they are well poised to offer affordable through travel between North America and South-East Asia. When they did their marketing well, Aerosvit's flights from YYZ were half full of traffic to India. UIA now has the right terminal, no competition in the domestic markets and virtually none internationally. If their 777 costs are low, and they market their product correctly they could be an Emirates or Etihad type operation at a lower cost market segment. They have similar (low) staff cost structures, with the added bonus of not having to recruit cheap, skilled labour from other countries. The problem is getting the right, not so cheap, labour to run the airlines properly, and I don't know that they do at the moment.
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
 
irshava
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:07 am

Quoting Tdan (Reply 26):
KBP-JFK/YYZ is incredibly seasonal

is incredibly full*. Well JFK at least, not too sure about YYZ but loadfactors are in the 80+%.
“If you were born without wings, do nothing to prevent them from growing.”
 
Freshside3
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:00 am

Quoting TC957 (Reply 2):
Other than New York, wonder what other routes they have in mind for them.

Chicago would be a natural choice. Lots of Ukrainians there, and lots of interest by Ukrainians in visiting the Windy City. In fact, they recently opened a music venue called the "Chicago Music Hall" in Donetsk.

The feed-in from offline carriers would certainly make this flight viable. Key markets, of course, are SFO, SEA, YYC, YEG. Plus ORD-KBP would be useful for others connecting to other parts of Eastern Europe.......expecially with decreased capacity of useful service across the Atlantic.
 
Tupolev160
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:54 am

Latest news on this topic include:

- VV transferring most of flights to PS and still operating just a handful of key routes
- PS reestablishing Europe network coverage
- VV to phase out all 763
- PS getting 5 77L from AI for long-haul ops (confirmed)

In short, UIA becoming the new national airline of Ukraine. Certainly not for the worst, as their new livery was sick, airline name meaningless and their service reckless most of the time. Hope this 'bad' development will evolve into a nice one.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...ne-scene-week-ending-12-01-13.aspx

http://www.centreforaviation.com/ana...ork-as-aerosvit-restructures-94105
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
Tupolev160
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:08 am

For me it is just unbelievable that AI finally managed to get rid of those 77L, seemed like they'll never be able to sell them. Any clue at what price they were paid and in what condition they are?
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
 
Freshside3
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RE: Ukraine Intl Getting 777-200s

Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 29):
The feed-in from offline carriers would certainly make this flight viable. Key markets, of course, are SFO, SEA, YYC, YEG. Plus ORD-KBP would be useful for others connecting to other parts of Eastern Europe.......expecially with decreased capacity of useful service across the Atlantic.

I meant to say YWG, not YEG on this....

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