User avatar
817Dreamliiner
Topic Author
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:12 pm

AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:04 pm

Just posted a while ago from Flightglobal


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...CFGFG%7Ctwitterfeed%7CFlightglobal

Quote:
American Airlines parent AMR Corp is seeking to convert orders for 20 Boeing 787-9s to a smaller variant, restore the timing of the first 787-9 delivery to 2014 and finalise a deal to buy 42 787s overall by the end of the month.

American Airlines now wants to finalise the deal with 20 787-8s and 22 787-9s, while keeping the option to buy 58 more 787s.

Interesting they want to convert 20 to the -8 version, we could finally see this order firmed up by the end of the month according to the article.
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
flyby519
Posts: 1158
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:31 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:28 pm

Was there a change to the 737MAX terms as well? (Article link is unavailable now)
These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11006
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:37 pm

This makes sense for AA since their B-767-300ERs are beginning to get up there in years of service. But what about the B-737MAXs? Does this also effect the orders for the A-319/-321s?
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23199
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:40 pm

The Dallas Morning News has the same info at http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...reamliners-in-november-2014.html/.

New terms are as follows:

● The entering into of a definitive purchase agreement with respect to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft;
● First 787 delivery moved forward to November 2014 and final delivery moved forward to September 2018;
● Certain financing commitments for Boeing 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft and certain Boeing 737-800 aircraft;
● The assumption of certain other aircraft spare parts, support and services agreements;
● A comprehensive settlement of claims among American and Boeing (including affiliates) in AMR’s and American’s bankruptcy case.


Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 2):
But what about the B-737MAXs? Does this also effect the orders for the A-319/-321s?


American also said it and Airbus signed a definitive agreement Friday for American’s purchase of 260 aircraft from the Airbus A320 family.

[Edited 2013-01-14 15:40:50]

[Edited 2013-01-14 16:12:37]
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 4990
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:47 pm

I thought some 787-8s might happen. Kind of surprised it's a conversion rather than an additional order, though.

A 787-9 is an awful lot of plane for many of the markets the 763 serves.
 
Prost
Posts: 1889
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:48 pm

It sounds like all of the pieces are coming together for their emergence from bankruptcy. I wish the employees and the new shareholders nothing but the best in their reinvigorated future.
 
User avatar
817Dreamliiner
Topic Author
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:12 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:02 am

The flightglobal link is available again, not sure why it stopped working...

The Part about the MAX:

Quote:
The proposed deals announced today by AMR also seek to finalise a purchase agreement for 100 737-8 Max aircraft, but at reduced prices.


[Edited 2013-01-14 16:05:50]
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
boeing773er
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:23 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:23 am

Wow I am rather suprised the amount of planes converted. I'm not suprised they converted some, but 20 is a large amount. Maybe we could see a top up order from AA; they have a rather large 767 fleet, also with the range of the 787 they can cover a large amount of the globe from DFW. But 42 is a good amount too.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
commavia
Posts: 9781
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 7):
I'm not suprised they converted some, but 20 is a large amount.

I imagine it was an economies of scale thing. The -8 and -9 will share most things in common, but there is probably some -8 peculiar equipment, training, etc. that made it worthwhile to get a certain quantity to make financial sense. Plus, the larger the fleet, the more scheduling flexibility that provides for the airline across a broader segment of the overall network.

Quoting boeing773ER (Reply 7):
Maybe we could see a top up order from AA; they have a rather large 767 fleet, also with the range of the 787 they can cover a large amount of the globe from DFW. But 42 is a good amount too.

Absolutely. I highly doubt AA will be done at 42. I suspect that long-term the 787 (both -9 and now also -8) will be replacing not only the 767s, but also likely a large chunk of the (if not the entire) 777-200ER fleet. By the time the last of these 787s arrives in September 2018, AA's oldest 777 will be just under 20 years old.
 
boeing773er
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:23 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:03 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):

So AA could eventually have over 100 787's eventually if that statement is true. I can imagine they can open many, many new routes with these planes.

I wonder when carriers will schedule 787's on domestic service, beside the training and fleet familiarization.
Work Hard, Fly Right.
 
seahawks7757
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:54 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:08 am

What slots were they able to get for the 787-8? Any idea when we could see its first one roll out of the factory?

Also read a tweet somewhere they are ordering 2 more 77W's, I am sure all the details will come out at the earnings call.
 
iFlyLOTs
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:45 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:10 am

Quoting seahawks7757 (Reply 11):
Also read a tweet somewhere they are ordering 2 more 77W's, I am sure all the details will come out at the earnings call.

Yeah I read that too on yahoo.

Link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americ...es-firms-orders-787-003414620.html
"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
 
Wingtips56
Posts: 752
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:26 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:12 am

I'm guessing a 787-8 sooner is better at this point than a 787-9 later. Boeing hasn't even begun to build a -9 yet, have they, never mind providing a firm EIS date?
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 23199
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 13):
Boeing hasn't even begun to build a -9 yet, have they, never mind providing a firm EIS date?

Parts for the first 787-9 are arriving at PAE and assembly will commence later this year. EIS with Air New Zealand is planned for next year.
 
ripcordd
Posts: 1034
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2000 1:12 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:49 am

Those slots were given to AA when they did a hand shake deal on getting the 787's a couple of years back when a lot of people said that Boeing would have 787 slots to give to AA till 2018. Great to see...
 
boilerla
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:30 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:52 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):

Absolutely. I highly doubt AA will be done at 42. I suspect that long-term the 787 (both -9 and now also -8) will be replacing not only the 767s, but also likely a large chunk of the (if not the entire) 777-200ER fleet. By the time the last of these 787s arrives in September 2018, AA's oldest 777 will be just under 20 years old.

That's what many expect for UAL as well. With one of the largest 772 fleets, UA will need every one of their 50 options plus more to replace the 763, 764 and 772 with the 788 and 789. If Boeing does offer the 78J, then I could see the entire widebody fleet for AA being 788 and 77W. UAL will have the A359.
 
chiad
Posts: 999
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:50 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
● The entering into of a definitive purchase agreement with respect to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft;
Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
American also said it and Airbus signed a definitive agreement Friday for American’s purchase of 260 aircraft from the Airbus A320 family.

IMO Airbus did correct by not placing the NEO from AA as firm back in July 2011.
 
User avatar
817Dreamliiner
Topic Author
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:12 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:52 am

Reuters is saying that the order is firm, can anyone confirm this?

Link:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...lines-planes-idUSBRE90E01220130115

[Edited 2013-01-15 01:48:24]
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 20153
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:23 am

Interesting, I did not know Boeing have 787 delivery slots for 2014 available.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
runway23
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:30 am

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 18):

Reuters is saying that the order is firm, cant anyone confirm this?

Link:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...30115

AA and Boeing haven't come out with any press release, I suppose this will happen later today.

I can't seem to understand if the 2 additional 77Ws are new orders or conversions from the 772 order, which means AA now have 15 77Ws on order and either 3 or 5 772s still left.

The 787 order seems to confirm that the 763s will gradually phase out of the fleet quite quickly, unless AA decides to use the 787s for growth and 763s for a role similar to what the A300s used to do. I think either will depend on the state of the economy once they start receiving the 787s.
 
runway23
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:33 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 19):
Interesting, I did not know Boeing have 787 delivery slots for 2014 available.

It had been rumoured for quite a long time (a couple of years), that AA and Boeing had a gentlemen's agreement whereby AA could get a 787 within 18-20 months of firming their order. There were a few people who questioned whether the Airbus order might have led to this agreement being rescinded, although based on this order it seems this was obviously not the case.
 
User avatar
KarelXWB
Crew
Posts: 20153
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:13 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:35 am

Quote:
It had been rumoured for quite a long time (a couple of years)

Thanks, I totally missed that information.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4100
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
American also said it and Airbus signed a definitive agreement Friday for American’s purchase of 260 aircraft from the Airbus A320 family.

I wonder what that means exactly  

"We have signed a non-binding agreement which dictates terms for when we sign an order"?

"We have signed an MOU which covers terms"?

"We have signed an order"?

The way they've put it reminds me of the political dance of "talking about talking"  
 
runway23
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:00 am

Quoting moo (Reply 23):
I wonder what that means exactly

It means firming up the 320 NEO part which was never firm.

And renegotiating the 319/321 part to more favorable terms, as they did yesterday with Boeing for the 737-800 and 737 MAX orders.

It does strike me as somewhat odd that they are renegotiating what were landmark deals at the time, they had already told everyone back then that the terms they got were extremely favorable.

This makes me think that what was actually renegotiated for the 320/737s deals was linked more to financing terms than anything else (like the prices themselves).
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4100
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:23 am

Quoting runway23 (Reply 24):
It means firming up the 320 NEO part which was never firm.

Thats what I am basically asking - is there any indication that it is actually "firm"? The wording of the indication doesn't fill me with confidence - "definitive agreement", whats that really?
 
jfk777
Posts: 5861
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:07 pm

Great news for AA to solidify its 787 order with some 787-8 to go with the 787-9's. Its an encouraging sign of AA's future to fund a new long haul fleet.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4734
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 21):
It had been rumoured for quite a long time (a couple of years), that AA and Boeing had a gentlemen's agreement whereby AA could get a 787 within 18-20 months of firming their order. There were a few people who questioned whether the Airbus order might have led to this agreement being rescinded, although based on this order it seems this was obviously not the case.

When AA announced it's intent to buy 787s, the agreement with Boeing to confirm the order was predicated on AA getting a new contract with the pilots. If anything, it was a "carrot" to get the pilots to agree to a new contract.

I think the agreement also required AA to firm up an order for each 787 a specified number of months ahead of a production slot. In theory, if negotiations dragged on, AA could release a production slot without cancelling the entire order.

The day APA announced tha the membership had ratified the tentative agreement, it was just a matter of time before AA confirmed the entire 787 order.

My guess is that with the delays in the 787 program, AA was not going to get 787-9s as first proposed under the initial agreement. Rather than wait for 787-9s while dealing with an aging 763 fleet, AA was willing to convert some 787-9s to 787-8s to start of renewal of the widebody fleet. Then, AA can decide what to do about replacing the 772s, when they turn 20 years old.
 
B777ER
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:35 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
AA's oldest 777 will be just under 20 years old.
Quoting boilerla (Reply 16):
UA will need every one of their 50 options plus more to replace the 763, 764 and 772

At least know we know were DL will be buying their next used aircraft from while AA and UA modernize!
 
b377
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:51 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 17):
Reuters is saying that the order is firm, can anyone confirm this?

While the agreement on all of the revisions to the original orders, as well as new aircraft added, is finalized between AA/Boeing/Airbus, there is still one important step to be completed before it really is "finalized".

The bankruptcy court has to give its approval and that will not happen until a hearing on 1/23/2013.
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 977
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:21 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 24):
Thats what I am basically asking - is there any indication that it is actually "firm"? The wording of the indication doesn't fill me with confidence - "definitive agreement", whats that really?

Here is how you know it is "firm".

AA is going to ask the bankruptcy court to approve the agreements. Indeed, the agreement with Boeing constitutes not only an order for new planes, but also a settlement of a claim that Boeing had previously made against the AA estate.
 
User avatar
moo
Posts: 4100
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 29):

Thank you, but you aren't saying anything more than others before you - i found the SEC filing an hour ago which answered my question tho.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 19):
I can't seem to understand if the 2 additional 77Ws are new orders or conversions from the 772 order, which means AA now have 15 77Ws on order and either 3 or 5 772s still left.

aerotransport.org is still showing 13 77W's (incl 2 delivered) and 6 772ER's still on order.

Current order mix for non-neo A32x is 15x A319's and 116x A321's (total 131).

Active 762ER fleet now down to 11.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
brilondon
Posts: 3018
Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:56 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:27 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):

The Dallas Morning News has the same info at http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...reamliners-in-november-2014.html/.

New terms are as follows:

● The entering into of a definitive purchase agreement with respect to Boeing 737 MAX aircraft;
● First 787 delivery moved forward to November 2014 and final delivery moved forward to September 2018;
● Certain financing commitments for Boeing 787-8 and 787-9 aircraft and certain Boeing 737-800 aircraft;
● The assumption of certain other aircraft spare parts, support and services agreements;
● A comprehensive settlement of claims among American and Boeing (including affiliates) in AMR’s and American’s bankruptcy case.

This is not really a surprise. It really shows the confidence in the Boeing product despite the recent events that has been in the news with the 787. It also reafirms AA's need to renew their fleet into a more fuel efficient and economical fleet that is their goal in the long run.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 4):
A 787-9 is an awful lot of plane for many of the markets the 763 serves.

If the economics are such in that they would make more money from replacing the 763 with the 789 then they have the flexibility for more seats and reduction in the price of the tickets or make more money what ever allows them to make a profit.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
User avatar
American 767
Posts: 3927
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 7:27 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 31):
Active 762ER fleet now down to 11.

Yes, JFK-SFO now sees not more than 2 daily 762 flights, with the remaining 2 being 763s. It looks like SFO will stop seeing the 762 before LAX will. However, JFK-MIA will continue to see the 762 1x daily, from time to time...but not permanently.

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
redrooster3
Posts: 222
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2010 2:35 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:36 pm

Today, AA was approved by a Judge to further finalized these aircraft options. This is a major step to AA finalizing their Boeings order. 100 737 MAX 8s, 20 787-8s, and 22(?) 787-9s. Article here. Further details to be reported later.
The only thing you should change about a woman is her last name.
 
BD338
Posts: 576
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:00 am

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting redrooster3 (Reply 34):
Article here.

quality reporting....."..granted American Airlines’ motion to acquire a bunch of Airbus and Boeing airplanes in coming years"...the reporter went, ah its a lot but I can't be bothered to look up the total  

Still, AA is edging nearer to emerging from bankruptcy, can't be too much longer. I'm looking forward to an impressive fleet once they are all delivered.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15689
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: AA Propose New 787-9 And 737 MAX Terms

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting american 767 (Reply 33):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 31):
Active 762ER fleet now down to 11.

Yes, JFK-SFO now sees not more than 2 daily 762 flights, with the remaining 2 being 763s. It looks like SFO will stop seeing the 762 before LAX will. However, JFK-MIA will continue to see the 762 1x daily, from time to time...but not permanently.

Another 762 was retired on Jan 17th. Now 10 active 762's.

Quoting redrooster3 (Reply 34):
Today, AA was approved by a Judge to further finalized these aircraft options. This is a major step to AA finalizing their Boeings order. 100 737 MAX 8s, 20 787-8s, and 22(?) 787-9s.

That's great news. Also good to see the 787 order split. I guess they either want less capacity or quicker deliveries.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.