catiii
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UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:39 pm

Press release here: http://m.prnewswire.com/news-release...tar-winglet-program-186934521.html

Kinda looks like the winglets on the MAX.
 
United885
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:50 pm

It looks like the sharklet programm of Airbus.
They offer the new winglet type for "old" aircrafts. Why not?
Sole differnece seems for me, that Boeing adds the "scimitar" winglets as a modification on allready delivered aircrafts while airbus offers the sharklets mainly for new builded units. Both are anticipated characteristics of the comming MAX and NEO´s.
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tjwgrr
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:52 pm

It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9.....  confused 

They sure look cool on the -700:

http://photos.prnewswire.com/prnfull/20130115/SF42472

[Edited 2013-01-15 06:54:55]
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:06 pm

Looks good indeed. I was sure Boeing would offer these new winglets to the 737NGs.
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Rdh3e
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:13 pm

I wonder what the price tag is on these. If it truly saves 45k gallons, that's about $150k per airplane per year.
 
BlueSky1976
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9...

Not really. In the MAX winglet, both upward- and downward - pointing part originate right at the leading edge of the wing. The scimitar winglet's downward pointing part is moved back a little towards trailing edge. If you look carefully, you'll catch the difference very easily.

Besides, I believe the shape is different, when looking from the front.
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cosyr
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:18 pm

Could these have the same benefit for Airbus as they do for Boeing? If so, it seems like Airbus is a big step behind with their sharklet. Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.
 
queb
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:22 pm

 
FriendlySkies
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 6):
Not really. In the MAX winglet, both upward- and downward - pointing part originate right at the leading edge of the wing. The scimitar winglet's downward pointing part is moved back a little towards trailing edge. If you look carefully, you'll catch the difference very easily.

The MAX will also have larger engines with chevrons on the nacelle, a larger metal intake similar to the 787, and a different tail cone. Won't be easy from far away but shouldn't be too difficult either.

I'm curious too what the pricetag on these is. I imagine UA got a good deal by launching the program, but the oldest 738s were delivered in 1998 IIRC...seems they will be around for a while yet.
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 7):
Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.

They kind of remind me of the MD-11 winglet, which has a small downward-pointing structure also. Of course, these are different, in that they are quite a bit bigger.
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 5):
I wonder what the price tag is on these. If it truly saves 45k gallons, that's about $150k per airplane per year.

Didn't Airbus say they studied this kind of split tip and found no benefit vs the blended winglet? It certainly begs the question what incremental value UA sees in these winglets vs the blended winglets they replace   
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:34 pm

Quoting CM (Reply 11):
Didn't Airbus say they studied this kind of split tip and found no benefit vs the blended winglet? It certainly begs the question what incremental value UA sees in these winglets vs the blended winglets they replace

Perhaps Boeing and AP have done a little more work on their CFD and figured out a more appropriate solution to getting the benefits they wanted?
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9.....

Look for the chevrons and the longer tail cone.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 7):
Funny though, that these seem inspired by Airbus' current, but smaller winglets.
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 10):
They kind of remind me of the MD-11 winglet

Correct.

Also the scimiter winglets are to add some 2500 lbs to the payload of the B-738NG, or about 75 nm in range.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/aviati...eing-launches-split-140000475.html
 
queb
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 9):
I'm curious too what the pricetag on these is

approximately $545K

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products_list_prices.php
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting neutronstar73 (Reply 12):
Perhaps Boeing and AP have done a little more work on their CFD and figured out a more appropriate solution to getting the benefits they wanted?

The fact that Boeing and APB came to this same conclusion independently (the MAX winglets are not APB design) lends confidence that there is some substance to their claims.

APB has apparently also validated the design in flight testing: http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_11_01_2012_p0-512660.xml

Honestly I think they look kind of ugly, but if it saves money that doesn't really matter.
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting tjwgrr (Reply 3):
It's going to make it difficult to quickly differentiate between a 739NG with the Scimitar winglets and the new MAX 9..... confused

Not to worry, the Max will be easily recognized by its redesigned APU tail cone.  
 
fpetrutiu
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:21 pm

I guess we'll see them on Airbus planes in the next 10 or so years too like the blended winglets finally making it into the A320 product line...
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting United885 (Reply 2):
It looks like the sharklet programm of Airbus.
They offer the new winglet type for "old" aircrafts. Why not?
Sole differnece seems for me, that Boeing adds the "scimitar" winglets as a modification on allready delivered aircrafts while airbus offers the sharklets mainly for new builded units. Both are anticipated characteristics of the comming MAX and NEO´s.


From what I can recall, Boeing's "dual feather" for the MAX is not retrofit-table on earlier 737s.
The similar looking "scimitar" is independently offered by APB for the current NGs.
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:26 pm

The news release is very vague about which ships will get the retrofit. APB lists the configurations they hope to certify eventually, but doesn't indicate which ones UA will actually take, other than the -800 with structural provisions and the -900ER.

Any further info?
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:55 pm

Aviation partners BOEING develop and show a new (patented) scimitar split wingtip then later Boeing show a split wingtip (but not scimitar - which I imagine is the patent bit). And both (Boeings) arrived at the same conclusion by accident? Hardly.

Of course the concept of the split wingtip is not patentiable as MD did it years ago. But as above if it lowers drag and saves fuel - who cares.

But it does make Airbus look oh so yesterday! They really should look at the A380 (80Mtr box accepted). Would probably also help their aircraft seperation issues too.
 
queb
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:10 pm

Boeing split winglet for the MAX looks like a new design for a new frame but APB split scimitar winglet looks more like a modified blended winglets (best for retrofit)

APB split scimitar winglet on a BBJ for flight test
http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/images/img_splitscimitar1.jpg
 
catiii
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:42 pm

Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:44 pm

I'm glad AP has already found a customer, but I wonder just how low the lower/downward winglet hangs. That is, does it hang low enough to be at risk of a collision with bag carts?
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United787
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:47 pm

Winglets on drugs! Not only do the winglets go up AND down, but the winglets have little wingletees...  
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:57 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 15):
Honestly I think they look kind of ugly, but if it saves money that doesn't really matter.

I don't know. To my eye the APB winglets have more design "flare". they just look more artistic.  
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):

Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

Also:
Why does the APB winglet have a different shape than the Boeing model? What would be the advantages and disadvantages?

And is the new winglet so much better than the current blended winglet that it will merit removal of the blended winglets and installation of the split winglet?
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:12 pm

I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting flyabr (Reply 25):

I think the opposite. I think the Boeing winglets look better than the APB ones.
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ryanov
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?
"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."

I believe modifications are needed to the wing to allow for winglets. Those that already had the modifications (strengthening?), I'm guessing.
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

Early in the 737NG's run, Boeing modified the wing structure to allow for easy installation of the original APB blended winglets. "Structurally provisioned" here is referring to aircraft manufactured after Boeing made that change. Earlier aircraft were able to have blended winglets installed, but the installation required deeper wing modification.
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."

A wing that was originally delivered without the structural modifications incorporated to allow winglets is different than one that was. Even after the wing has been modified for winglets post production, it is still structurally different than one that was structurally provisioned. Either way the Scimitar winglet requires further structural modification to the wing.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Why does the APB winglet have a different shape than the Boeing model?

Because the APB Scimitar winglet is a modification of the current winglet, it is not completely new.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
And is the new winglet so much better than the current blended winglet that it will merit removal of the blended winglets and installation of the split winglet?

That's what APB is counting on.
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
Early in the 737NG's run, Boeing modified the wing structure to allow for easy installation of the original APB blended winglets.

     

I think this change occurred around Line #400 in 737 NG production.
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:07 pm

Those look freaking cool!!!! I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give them since UA (and CO before it) literally maxes out the range and payload on many 737 routes. I'd expect CM to follow closely with an order as well.
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting Tdan (Reply 33):
Those look freaking cool!!!! I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give them since UA (and CO before it) literally maxes out the range and payload on many 737 routes. I'd expect CM to follow closely with an order as well.

The site says only a 75nm boost in range, but 2,500 lb in payload.
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:18 pm

I hope DL decides to go with these on their new 739ERs.
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Tdan
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Quoting Tdan (Reply 33):
Those look freaking cool!!!! I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give them since UA (and CO before it) literally maxes out the range and payload on many 737 routes. I'd expect CM to follow closely with an order as well.

The site says only a 75nm boost in range, but 2,500 lb in payload.

Payload is huge for UA. UIO and TGU restrictions might be gone as a result.
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lightsaber
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:02 pm

From the OP link:
the program will consist of retrofitting existing Boeing Next Generation 737 Blended Winglets by replacing the aluminum winglet tip cap with a new aerodynamically shaped "Scimitar" TM winglet tip cap and by adding a new Scimitar tipped Ventral Strake.

So is this a retrofit to a the current winglet? If so, and can be done with the current structure, that is some *clever* engineering!   

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 13):
Also the scimiter winglets are to add some 2500 lbs to the payload of the B-738NG, or about 75 nm in range.

Nice...

Quoting Tdan (Reply 33):
I'm curious how much of a range boost they'll give

See above, 75nm. For a half million per shipset, that is cheap and well worth it. I bet UA will pay far less, my best thumb in the wind guess would be about $300k/shipset.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 19):

The news release is very vague about which ships will get the retrofit. APB lists the configurations they hope to certify eventually, but doesn't indicate which ones UA will actually take, other than the -800 with structural provisions and the -900ER.

Any further info?

Whomever will pay. However, the easiest retrofits will be on aircraft that came out of the factory built for winglets. Since the 738 is the most common 737NG, that is the market to go after first. Then will be the retrofitted 738 market, and then the 73G (factory and retrofit). The 739 would be also of value, but APB will be too expensive with too little benefit for the 739ER.

Quoting CM (Reply 32):
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 30):
Early in the 737NG's run, Boeing modified the wing structure to allow for easy installation of the original APB blended winglets.

     

I think this change occurred around Line #400 in 737 NG production.

Interesting... than maybe the 73G retrofit will happen prior to the non-factory built 738s...

Question: were all later 738s built for winglets even if they were not installed? How about FL's 73Gs? For it will be a cost difference between factory winglets and aftermarket winglets due to the different structure.

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

Built at the Boeing factory for winglets. The wings require some extra re-enforcement to take the stress loads of the winglets. Aftermarket kits have different re-enforcement and thus will require a different certification.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Also:
Why does the APB winglet have a different shape than the Boeing model? What would be the advantages and disadvantages?

As best I can tell the scimitar bolts onto the current APB winglet. Someone please verify... The new Boeing design is an 'all in one' that I would expect to be lighter.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
And is the new winglet so much better than the current blended winglet that it will merit removal of the blended winglets and installation of the split winglet?

As best I can tell one cheap part of the current winglet is removed and then the scimitar is attached to the existing winglet. Thus a far cheaper install. Note: I am unsure if any intra-wing work is required.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 35):

I hope DL decides to go with these on their new 739ERs.

Due to the raked wingtip, retrofit to the 739ER is likely to be too expensive for the small subfleet. The wing extension the 739ER has over the 738 (due to the raked wingtips) will also reduce the benefit of wingtip devices.

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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:07 pm

Personally i think they're ugly. I wish they would put the raked wingtips, like the 777.

[Edited 2013-01-15 13:09:23]
 
UA735WL
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):



??????


I'm pretty sure that the 739ER does not have raked wingtips, just regular winglets. The only 737 variant w/raked wingtips is the 738 derived P-8 Poseidon produced for the US Navy.
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JoeCanuck
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:40 pm

I really appreciate a clever design. The folks at APB took their already efficient and popular blended winglet and made it better. Not only that, they made the improvement to retrofit to their current winglets.

Anyone with blended winglets, (on 737's), can order these...and I bet they'll be very popular.

I wonder if they're working on a 757/767 program.
What the...?
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
Due to the raked wingtip, retrofit to the 739ER is likely to be too expensive for the small subfleet. The wing extension the 739ER has over the 738 (due to the raked wingtips) will also reduce the benefit of wingtip devices.

What are you talking about???? The 739ER has winglets, not raked wingtips. Your probably thinking of the P-8, even so, the 739ER isnt a small subfleet... DL has 100 of them on order...
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1337Delta764
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
Due to the raked wingtip, retrofit to the 739ER is likely to be too expensive for the small subfleet. The wing extension the 739ER has over the 738 (due to the raked wingtips) will also reduce the benefit of wingtip devices.

The 737-900ER does NOT have raked wingtips. Blended winglets are a standard feature on the 739ER, and according to the posted article there are plans to have the scimitars certified on most 737NG variants, including the 739ER.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 41):
Your probably thinking of the P-8, even so, the 739ER isnt a small subfleet... DL has 100 of them on order...

And UA will have about 150-200 of them before the first MAX arrives...these things will be on the 739ER, I'd put money on it.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:26 pm

Here is another angle:

Aviation Partners Blended Split-Tip Scimitar Winglet (photo by unknown)
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting United_fan (Reply 27):
I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.

I was thinking the same thing. How far would the lower part be from the ground?
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:37 pm

Since I doubt the MAX wingtip design has been frozen yet, I wonder if the Boeing design ends up with a more scimitarish tip.

Even though Boeing and APB came to their designs independently, I imagine Boeing is working with APB on the retrofit details, (since the B part of APB is Boeing), which would be good for everybody. As well, Boeing may 'develop' some styling cues which look remarkably like the aftermarket unit.

[Edited 2013-01-15 14:40:48]
What the...?
 
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting catiii (Reply 22):
Why does "structurally provisioned" mean in the context of their press release?

"the structurally provisioned and non-provisioned 737-700, 737-800, 737-BBJ, the structurally provisioned 737-900 and the 737-900ER. The initial FAA certification program will be for retrofit conversion of Blended Winglets on 737-800 aircraft that were delivered with wings structurally provisioned for Blended Winglets at time of delivery from the Boeing Next-Generation 737 production line ..."

Winglets get confusing.

The 900ER was certified with winglets. They are standard on that model. The 737-800 wing was made capable of supporting winglets part of the way through production.

Early 737-800s airplanes were not structurally provisioned which means they need some modifications to improve strength & stiffness. The 737-700 wing is different and needs to be modified to be able to take the loads from the winglet. There is some retrofits to the wing as well. Load alleviation needs to be added (spoiler control system modification). The wingtip lights need to be changed. The FMC needs to be updated with performance and fuel burn changes. And finally there is some additional maintenance required.
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TZTriStar500
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting m1m2 (Reply 45):
Quoting United_fan (Reply 27):
I'm sure ground crews will have to be more careful driving near the lower winglet part.

I was thinking the same thing. How far would the lower part be from the ground?

From someone who has had his share of dealing with 'ramp-rash', those will get hit before they are gotten used to. Like the MD-11, 747-400 and the blended winglets of today, there was quite a bit of winglet damage during initial operations plus the portion that points down is now quite a bit lower than the wingtip.
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CM
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 37):
Question: were all later 738s built for winglets even if they were not installed?

Yes. The strengthening was for the baseline wing, to accommodate winglets, but you still got the stronger wing even if you did not take winglets.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: UA To Retrofit 737 Fleet With "Scimitar" Winglets

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:53 pm

The original blended winglet was more than 8' above the ground at the wingtip, at MTOW. So, it looks like the new lower winglet portion is about 6' above the ground. I can see the airlines putting a cone on the ramp under these new winglets.

http://www.aviationpartnersboeing.com/products_737_800.php

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