cokepopper
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Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:53 pm

Looks like it's official that Alitalia is out of EWR...
http://airlineroute.net/2013/01/14/a...medium=rss&utm_campaign=az-jfk-s13
Is it just a matter of time that Delta will announce new service to FCO from EWR?
Hopefully it won't be a little over a year as in the case of Delta picking up EWR-CDG.
We can possibly see a total of EWR-AMS/CDG/FCO/LHR in just over a years time...
 
apodino
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:57 pm

Here is the thing...with the JFK improvements, and AZ having service out of JFK, what is actually gained by EWR service? EWR is another big airport in NYC along with JFK I get that, but DL has to be very careful with how they approach serving EWR, because if they add too much service from EWR, it will pull traffic from JFK where they are investing a heck of a lot more money than EWR.
 
tommy767
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
ut DL has to be very careful with how they approach serving EWR, because if they add too much service from EWR, it will pull traffic from JFK where they are investing a heck of a lot more money than EWR.

Not really. The AMS and soon CDG routes will likely support themselves. The only other competitor is United. At JFK there is far more competition on quite a few of their European routes. Plus EWR and JFK have different catchment areas. It's unlikely that someone in Long Island is going to go to EWR unless they are highly motivated to.

I think EWR-LHR on Delta is very likely once the JV is in place with Virgin. EWR-FCO, possibly. Alitalia in the past was able to operate it year round until recently. EWR-FCO is now only seasonal with UA. So I'd say it's possible.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
MAH4546
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:15 pm

No.

Firstly, DL and AZ, while part of the same venture, do not do flying for each other like DL/KL and DL/AF, and I doubt it will start with EWR.

Secondly, unlike other cases, AZ actually is keeping the capacity here. The EWRFCO frequency is simply moving over to an additional JFKFCO frequency - a consolidation of services. Do DL/AZ really want to add more capacity in one of the worst performing U.S.-EU markets? I don't think so.
a.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3):

Secondly, unlike other cases, AZ actually is keeping the capacity here. The EWRFCO frequency is simply moving over to an additional JFKFCO frequency - a consolidation of services. Do DL/AZ really want to add more capacity in one of the worst performing U.S.-EU markets? I don't think so.

        
I don't see a point in DL flying this route
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
Here is the thing...with the JFK improvements, and AZ having service out of JFK, what is actually gained by EWR service?

The fact DL has a business model that can actually make money on a route out of EWR with a 767 versus an A330 or 777 that AZ has. AZ is a notoriously badly-run airline and is bleeding red-ink. It's not a sure thing, but it's worth a shot and puts alittle bit of pressure on UA in their own backyard, which has it's own problems right now

[Edited 2013-01-17 13:36:21]
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EWRandMDW
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:46 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 5):
Here is the thing...with the JFK improvements, and AZ having service out of JFK, what is actually gained by EWR service?

So everyone wanting to go to Rome from west of the Hudson River or parts of NYC should automatically just head for JFK? Might as well fly out of EWR and connect somewhere -- the connection time will be similar to time lost in travel to JFK!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 6):
So everyone wanting to go to Rome from west of the Hudson River or parts of NYC should automatically just head for JFK? Might as well fly out of EWR and connect somewhere -- the connection time will be similar to time lost in travel to JFK!

And when was the last time you heard someone say "I can't wait to drive all the way out to JFK tomorrow!!!"??
Made from jets!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:31 am

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 6):
So everyone wanting to go to Rome from west of the Hudson River or parts of NYC should automatically just head for JFK?

They can just fly United.

Can't have it both ways...EWR is a fortress hub. Back in the 80s and 90s when all of these Euro carriers started these routes, it was not.

Competition is fierce, economy is garbage, and JFK is the preferred gateway if you are only going to serve one airport.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:48 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 2):

I'm not so sure that DL will be flying any VS routes instead of VS. VS doesn't have much beyond LHR connections and VS has a very different product and clientele than DL. I'm not sure UK point of sale VS pax would be too pleased to find themselves on Delta.
 
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usdcaguy
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:29 am

In my mind, the year-round EWR-CDG service will replace the seasonal EWR-FCO service. This is more about connectivity on the DL/AF/KL/AZ JV than service to Rome. Still, I could see why a DL nonstop to FCO might do well in the Summer because of all the ethnic Italians in Jersey, although I'm not sure they really have many ties in Italy anymore.
 
runway23
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:54 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 8):
Can't have it both ways...EWR is a fortress hub. Back in the 80s and 90s when all of these Euro carriers started these routes, it was not.

Well historically AZ had a major reason to serve EWR in the fact that they were partners with CO.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:16 pm

Quoting apodino (Reply 1):
EWR is another big airport in NYC along with JFK

EWW, sorry, EWR is actually in New Jersey. It might serve NYC area, but its not in NYC.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 7):
And when was the last time you heard someone say "I can't wait to drive all the way out to JFK tomorrow!!!"??

Quite a while, but I damn sure have NEVER heard someone say "I can't wait to drive all the way out to EWW''...sorry, EWR.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
cokepopper
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:34 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 12):
Quite a while, but I damn sure have NEVER heard someone say "I can't wait to drive all the way out to EWW''...sorry, EWR.

And I never heard anyone say I can't wait to drive to Lagarbage!

I think we will know soon enough if Delta picks this flight up. Many
at the airport seem to think we will.
 
jfk777
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:52 pm

Why would Delta fly anything Newark to Europe, Virgin or not. Virgin Atlantic has flown EWR to London for 29 years and its should be the one to do so. Alitalia flew to Newark because Continental used to be a Skyteam Airline, its a legacy of that. The only Euopean airline that universally has loved EWR is SAS and I question that decision. With UA being the huge force it is at EWR, why doesn't every Star alliance airline move all their JFK flights to EWR ?

Because JFK is a huge important airport, none of the Japanesse airline( ANA is a Star airline) fly to EWR and none of the big Middle East airlines do either.
 
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STT757
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:11 pm

Isn't El Al a Middle Eastern airline?
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
NYCAdvantage
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):

Because if you want to win NYC you may want to cover it from all bases, I am not
Saying they will take over the route but if they ever do, they could claim they are
also growing at EWR. "Part of the strategy to win New York"
 
Sligo
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:27 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):

Why would Delta fly anything Newark to Europe, Virgin or not. Virgin Atlantic has flown EWR to London for 29 years and its should be the one to do so.

Generally agree. The carrier that is flying to its hub should be the one running the route for this to make sense from a marketing perspective. So AF EWR-CDG under the JV or VS EWR-LHR/LGW makes sense of course.

DL's presence inbound to CDG from markets like PIT are the exception of course, but it's reasonable in that that route (1) has incentives and (2) 757s are the best fit.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:32 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):

El Al is a Middle Eastern airline.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
Luftymatt
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:37 pm

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 6):
So everyone wanting to go to Rome from west of the Hudson River or parts of NYC should automatically just head for JFK? Might as well fly out of EWR and connect somewhere -- the connection time will be similar to time lost in travel to JFK!

Why not? Both airports serve the same city, and neither are that far from each other (about 36 miles). Most cities would be glad to have such good international services from one airport, let alone two!
chase the sun
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 10):
In my mind, the year-round EWR-CDG service will replace the seasonal EWR-FCO service

Didn't AF just ax EWR? DL took that over. This is an additional cut being replaced with nothing.

But I get your point. DL/AF/AZ will still connect EWR to their Euro hub and that is sufficient
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 19):
Why not? Both airports serve the same city, and neither are that far from each other (about 36 miles). Most cities would be glad to have such good international services from one airport, let alone two!chase the sun

True--especially at rush hour--you have to either go through the tunnel into midtown Manhattan and work your way east towatds the Van Wyck Expressway which is a parking lot a lot of the time. Or you can head south on the Jersey Tpk to Exit 13, cross the Goethals Bridge, cross Staten Island and the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and follow the Belt Parkway out to JFK. Either way you are looking at a 1 1/2-2 hour trip. EWR is the logical choice for anyone living on the west side of the Hudson River.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:07 pm

100% correct. The NY area is just too hard to travel around via car.

Each airport has enough of an area to work
 
jfk777
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 18):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):


El Al is a Middle Eastern airline.

For reasons that are obvious EL AL and Israel is a Special case. Half the Jewish people in the world live in Metro New Yrok.
 
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STT757
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 12):

EWW, sorry, EWR is actually in New Jersey. It might serve NYC area, but its not in NYC.

So are the Jets and the Giants, but doesn't stop the tens of thousands of New Yorkers from going to their games on Sundays (or Monday Nights) nor does it deter the City from hosting ticker tape parades *(well at least for the Giants) when they win the Super Bowl. Also I'm quite sure New York City will be spending quite a lot of time and money getting ready for the Super Bowl next year which is also in New Jersey.

All the airports, EWR, JFK, LGA and TEB, will be very busy next year with some interesting visitors for the Super Bowl.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
tommy767
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:09 pm

I find it funny the same people come out of the woods when it comes to DL at EWR threads. In 2009 the same people said EWR-AMS would fail, and last year they said DL would never operate EWR-CDG after AF dropped it. Turns out they were wrong on both occasions.

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 8):
They can just fly United.

Can't have it both ways...EWR is a fortress hub. Back in the 80s and 90s when all of these Euro carriers started these routes, it was not.

Actually, you can definitely have it both ways. Fortress hub has nothing to do with it. United has a hold on EWR, but airlines like B6 and DL are proving that there is plenty of room to make a buck in markets that UA prices it out in. For instance why do you think so many leisure travelers are flying B6 to Florida from EWR? It's because UA's fares are completely insane. Thankfully there are other alternatives because back in 2006-2007 CO was price controlling EWR and there weren't many other alternatives compared to now. I find it hilarious that DL operates EWR-ATL 11 mainline flights a day and all that UA can throw up against them are 4-5 E145s and 1-2 E170s.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 9):
I'm not so sure that DL will be flying any VS routes instead of VS. VS doesn't have much beyond LHR connections and VS has a very different product and clientele than DL. I'm not sure UK point of sale VS pax would be too pleased to find themselves on Delta.

Not a logical reason at all. There has been so much JV crossfleeting between AF/DL and yet the same argument prevails: DL is in no way, shape, or form on the same level as AF and people will notice. Well that hasn't exactly worked out in markets like ORD, SEA, and PHL. People really don't care if it's AF, DL, VS, or whatever it's an option to get from the US to Europe. All of these carriers have strong J products, and that is what matters.

I do highly anticipate that at least 1x EWR-LHR will eventually go to Delta -- it's just a matter of when.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 10):

In my mind, the year-round EWR-CDG service will replace the seasonal EWR-FCO service.

EWR-CDG on Delta is replacing AF's presence on the route. Rome and Paris are two highly different markets.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
So are the Jets and the Giants, but doesn't stop the tens of thousands of New Yorkers from going to their games on Sundays (or Monday Nights) nor does it deter the City from hosting ticker tape parades *(well at least for the Giants) when they win the Super Bowl.

Before we get into another JFK vs. EWR argument can we all agree that both areas are crowded wastelands where everyone is rude, pissed off, and miserable?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jayunited
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:15 pm

I don't see why Delta would need EWR-FCO, when they don't even fly JFK-FCO year around. JFK is the hub they are investing millions of dollars in I think they would first want to establish year around daily service from their hub in JFK before expanding to EWR.

And as far as them flying EWR-LHR even with a JV coming I don't see VS turning over any slots to DL on this or any other route. I'll go even further out on a limb and say that as long as Sir Richard holds a majority stake in VS I don't see VS turning over any slots at LHR to DL, those slots are to valuable. If I was Sir Richard I would hold every slot I already have at LHR because DL is not merging with VS. So what would keep DL form selling is 49% in VS, if VS were to turn some valuable LHR slots over to DL? I'm sure DL wants more LHR slots but Richard is a smart man I highly doubt that he will give DL any of his slots just because they are going to be in a JV. Although JV's means the 2 airlines are now sharing everything the one thing that is not included in this JV is the all important slots at LHR. I'm almost positive that if DL gets its hands on some of VS slots at LHR they would sell their 49% stake almost immediately.
 
willd
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 25):
eople really don't care if it's AF, DL, VS, or whatever it's an option to get from the US to Europe. All of these carriers have strong J products, and that is what matters.

Thats where I think you are wrong. I think people dont care if their airline is seen as being the poor relationship in the JV. EWR-LHR will be the VS market, they already have a loyal following. I can think of a lot of people that will be rather peeved off if they rock up to find DL operating the route and will either take their business elsewhere or start selecting the VS flight.

In the same way, do you think that VS are going to start operating LHR-ATL (taking one of DL's ATL flights) because of hte JV?

I struggle to see how you can say the DL J product is strong. Yes its along the same lines as the UCS on VS in terms of the physical seat but there is no Clubhouse, Upper Class Wing, free beauty salon etc etc with DL. I bet, where both airlines, have a Skyclub and a Clubhouse, the Clubhouse will become packed with DL J passengers and the Skyclub will empty.

British people are very brand loyal and nationalistic, even more so at the moment. US airlines, rightly or wrongly, have a very poor name in the UK. It can hardly be coincidence that whenever BA have a sale (especially in premium cabins) the only real sale prices are on those flights operated by AA under the JV.

Anyway back on topic.
 
hohd
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:34 pm

DL can serve EWR-FCO and still not compete directly with UA. For one thing, competition already exists from JFK, and that keeps many European fares in check even from UA from EWR. EWR is not as much fortress hub as UA wants it to be.
 
tommy767
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 26):
nd as far as them flying EWR-LHR even with a JV coming I don't see VS turning over any slots to DL on this or any other route. I'll go even further out on a limb and say that as long as Sir Richard holds a majority stake in VS I don't see VS turning over any slots at LHR to DL, those slots are to valuable. If I was Sir Richard I would hold every slot I already have at LHR because DL is not merging with VS.

Doesn't VS have some unused slots at EWR? Perhaps they will be forced to give DL one.

Quoting willd (Reply 27):
Thats where I think you are wrong. I think people dont care if their airline is seen as being the poor relationship in the JV. EWR-LHR will be the VS market, they already have a loyal following.

Wouldn't call it loyal, at all. Not with UA on the route 5x a day, BA 3x a day. VS with only 2x is technically the weakest link.

Quoting willd (Reply 27):
In the same way, do you think that VS are going to start operating LHR-ATL (taking one of DL's ATL flights) because of hte JV?

I think it's absolutely possible. That's the whole point of JV. What makes Virgin any better than Air France or KLM?

Quoting willd (Reply 27):
I struggle to see how you can say the DL J product is strong. Yes its along the same lines as the UCS on VS in terms of the physical seat but there is no Clubhouse, Upper Class Wing, free beauty salon etc etc with DL. I bet, where both airlines, have a Skyclub and a Clubhouse, the Clubhouse will become packed with DL J passengers and the Skyclub will empty.

Well let's put it this way (and this has been argued before) VS and DL have their respective strengths and weaknesses. VS has a significantly better club offering, although the Sky Club is no slouch either. On board, I'd give hard product a slight edge to VS, but the food is pretty weak. I think DL wins out with catering in Business Elite rather easily.

At the end of the day it's a wash. Virgin isn't that great.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jayunited
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 29):
Doesn't VS have some unused slots at EWR? Perhaps they will be forced to give DL one.

Even if they do have unused slots at EWR, Delta isn't interested in their EWR slots Delta wants and would like some of VS's LHR slots. VS has fought to hard over the years to gain more slots at LHR to simply turn them over to Delta, and I really don't think that Delta can force them into turning them over.

I don't know why SQ bought 49% of VS years ago, whatever the reason was I don't think SQ gained much for their partnership with VS. However we all know why DL purchased a 49% stake in VS they want more access into LHR. But I'm pretty sure there was nothing in the deal that DL could use to force VS to give up some slots at LHR although I sure DL will try very hard to convince VS that on certain routs their 767 are better suited, I don't think VS will fall for it those slots are too valuable to them.
 
alfa164
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:30 pm

As far as the original question is concerned...

I think DL would grab EWR=FCO in a second if they could count on AZ to be as reliable a partner as AF and KL are. DL has long wanted to use FCO (and previously MXP) as a codeshare European hub, but AZ's precarious stability has prevented a full-scale relationship.

If AZ gets itself straightened-out - or even if it looks like things are beginning to look favorable - I think you'd see DL add EWR-FCO flights.
 
tommy767
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 30):
VS has fought to hard over the years to gain more slots at LHR to simply turn them over to Delta, and I really don't think that Delta can force them into turning them over.

Then I ask you (if this is the case) what the hell is the point of JV if Virgin doesn't want to turn LHR slots over to Delta? Sounds pointless.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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STT757
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 29):

Doesn't VS have some unused slots at EWR?

They've never had more than the two daily flights they are currently running, so I don't know where the idea of excess slots would come from.

VS at EWR has had the following since 1984

EWR-LGW 1 daily
EWR-LGW 2 daily
EWR-LGW 1 daily + EWR-LHR 1 daily
EWR-LHR 2 daily
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
codc10
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
( ANA is a Star airline)

And by virtue of the transpacific joint venture, has a presence at EWR through United's EWR-NRT just as UA has a presence on JFK-NRT through NH.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
nor does it deter the City from hosting ticker tape parades *(well at least for the Giants)

It did following XXI and XXV...

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 25):
I find it hilarious that DL operates EWR-ATL 11 mainline flights a day and all that UA can throw up against them are 4-5 E145s and 1-2 E170s.

Simply because the EWR-ATL market is not as massive as the DL presence implies. Delta is pushing a lot of EWR-originating traffic over ATL to destinations in the Southeast, Latin America, South America and beyond. Meanwhile, most of the traffic on UA to Atlanta is local in nature. The sheer power of the hub Delta has built at ATL inevitably skews comparions on this basis.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 32):
Then I ask you (if this is the case) what the hell is the point of JV if Virgin doesn't want to turn LHR slots over to Delta? Sounds pointless.

Just to name a few: revenue sharing, limiting competition, legalized collusion, schedule coordination, marketing. The JV means so much more than just trading operators on random routes.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting Sligo (Reply 17):

DL's presence inbound to CDG from markets like PIT are the exception of course, but it's reasonable in that that route (1) has incentives and (2) 757s are the best fit.

which would be the case here, the 763 would be a better airplane for the route vs a 330.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 17):
Generally agree. The carrier that is flying to its hub should be the one running the route for this to make sense from a marketing perspective. So AF EWR-CDG under the JV or VS EWR-LHR/LGW makes sense of course.

Delta has hubs in CDG/AMS and FCO. (and soon LHR) Delta/Air France/KLM/AZ and soon Virgin are going to be one airline across the Atlantic.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 14):
Quoting willd (Reply 27):

Thats where I think you are wrong. I think people dont care if their airline is seen as being the poor relationship in the JV. EWR-LHR will be the VS market, they already have a loyal following. I can think of a lot of people that will be rather peeved off if they rock up to find DL operating the route and will either take their business elsewhere or start selecting the VS flight.

Yeah yeah, just like all the people that are pissed because Delta has taken over some AF routes. yada yada.  

If Delta has the right plane for EWR-LHR, then that is who will fly it. Most of the public wont care, those that do can.....I guess swim.
New airliners.net web site sucks.
 
tommy767
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 34):
Simply because the EWR-ATL market is not as massive as the DL presence implies. Delta is pushing a lot of EWR-originating traffic over ATL to destinations in the Southeast, Latin America, South America and beyond. Meanwhile, most of the traffic on UA to Atlanta is local in nature. The sheer power of the hub Delta has built at ATL inevitably skews comparions on this basis.

Rather weak that UA can't sustain at least several mainline a day on a highly lucrative business route.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
codc10
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 36):
Rather weak that UA can't sustain at least several mainline a day on a highly lucrative business route.

Highly lucrative business traffic is not always the same as high volume traffic. I think you'd be fascinated to find that UA and DL are separated by only a few percentage points (single digits) in terms of share of the EWR-ATL local market, something like 37% (UA) to 42% (DL). With respect to passengers carried, Delta nearly triples United (including UAX) because of their overwhelming capacity advantage due to demand for connections over the ATL hub.

The difference is the strength of the ATL hub. It really has very little to do with United 'neglecting' the market. Given current traffic patterns, the existing schedule operated all-mainline would result in gross overcapacity for UA.
 
tommy767
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 37):
The difference is the strength of the ATL hub. It really has very little to do with United 'neglecting' the market. Given current traffic patterns, the existing schedule operated all-mainline would result in gross overcapacity for UA.

Ah CODC10, always on the EWR/United/Ex-CO defensive.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
codc10
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:55 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 38):
Ah CODC10, always on the EWR/United/Ex-CO defensive.

Not exactly... just responding to hyperbole (and ad hominem) with fact. With respect to EWR/UA/CO, I direct my attention to personal areas of interest. What's the problem with that?
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 37):

You are absolutely correct that the two are not comparable. DL anything to ATL is always going to be a win for DL just because the freak of nature that ATL is and the shear scope of operation that DL runs out of there. The closest match that DL has on any routes out of ATL is AA to DFW on 8 daily mainline flights compared to 10 for DL, and AA at DFW is the worlds second biggest single airline hub after DL in ATL. UA out of EWR is geared for limited connections out of Northeast and Europe to ATL plus NYC O&D, while DL has the O&D plus the weight of ATL connections to fill its planes to and from EWR.
 
jfk777
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:13 pm

Quoting NYCAdvantage (Reply 16):
Because if you want to win NYC you may want to cover it from all bases, I am not
Saying they will take over the route but if they ever do, they could claim they are
also growing at EWR. "Part of the strategy to win New York"

IF an airline strategy is to "win New York" then United should have all kinds of flights from JFK. UA can start with a few 787 JFK to LHR flights. But they probably won't.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 26):
I don't see why Delta would need EWR-FCO, when they don't even fly JFK-FCO year around. JFK is the hub they are investing millions of dollars in I think they would first want to establish year around daily service from their hub in JFK before expanding to EWR.

FCO tends to be highly seasonal. NW used to suspend it for the winter out of DTW and I can see why DL does the same. Italy is just not that popular with travelers in the winter as it gets quite cold. And grillling hot in the summer! I think DL wants to poach some pax from other carriers--it's all about market share.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
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STT757
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):
IF an airline strategy is to "win New York" then United should have all kinds of flights from JFK.

I think UA is winning by offering destinations AA and DL do not offer from NY:

Hong Kong
Beijing
Shanghai
Delhi
Mumbai
Berlin
Istanbul (year round)

Are all pretty important International markets.

[Edited 2013-01-19 06:43:18]
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jfk777
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 43):
I think UA is winning by offering destinations AA and DL do not offer from NY:

Hong Kong
Beijing
Shanghai
Delhi
Mumbai

Are all pretty important International markets

While United does get the kudos for flying to all those cities nonatop fron Newark, AA and DL do fly to Shanghai and Peking nonstop from other hubs, UA nonstop itself flies to those cities from ORD and SFO as well. AA doesn't fly to HKG because Cathay covers that market well for Oneworld. AA and Delta have had flights nonstop from the USA to India but for costs reasons discontinued those flights. All Big 3 US airlines have nonstop to China, India is 3 hours more so flying nonstop is a challenged. Hong Kong has been flown by United and Delta for decades, AA will probably fly there when the 787-9 arrive.
 
codc10
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:12 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 44):

All these points are valid, but weren't you talking about New York?
 
panamair
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 42):
it's all about market share.

Not anymore.... the Delta and United of today are more than confident and content to leave unprofitable markets to others, unless the market is a huge part of their overall strategy....Delta pulled out of JFK-BUD and JFK-MAN and left those to AA, and AA eventually pulled BUD too....United pulled out of ACC, DME, etc., leaving Delta to be the sole nonstop from the U.S. to those markets, etc.
 
klwright69
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:51 pm

WOW. This thread is so full of ideas and pie in the sky.

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 10):
Still, I could see why a DL nonstop to FCO might do well in the Summer because of all the ethnic Italians in Jersey, although I'm not sure they really have many ties in Italy anymore.

Any airline can do well in the summer to FCO, regardless of the Italians in Jersey.

Can we not get into the whole EWR vs JFK situation? That discussion has been going round and round on a.net for ages. If it continues this thread should be locked.

UA's vs DL's presence in EWR-ATL has little to do with UA being some inadequate, 3rd rate airline, it's due more to the nature of the market, most likely. I am sure UA could upgrade and add flights if they wanted or needed to. That is another ridiculous sidebar topic.

If UA does not serve FCO year round from EWR, and DL does not go year round from JFK either, that should tell you something right there. It's clearly a seasonal market. It seems hardly worth the trouble. If UA does not maintain it year round that should be a huge red flag.

Why would VS turn over a precious slot at LHR so that DL to serve EWR-LHR? They sure wouldn't do it for free. Would DL pay big bucks for a slot at LHR to serve EWR, and they would do this and still be behind BA and UA in the market? It seems like a costly investment for something with limited appeal. We are always told by all the experts in this forum that the precious high yield traffic is out of JFK anyway, right? This is like suggesting UA should add some JFK-LHR frequencies. A very expensive proposition of limited value.
 
NYCAdvantage
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 41):

That is exactly my point, UA had a huge chance at JFK when they used to have T9, they went to IAD and just left JFK to AA, It is very doubtful they will come back unless they buy VX and you wonder how big the chances of that happening, I think DL will look in to them before anyone else, just because of their ties with SRB, in the other hand DL is putting their eggs in different baskets, even thou they will never be what UA is at EWR, Very wisely in a slowly cautious manner DL is sneaking into EWR under the umbrella "winning New York", getting international O/D market just giving an option to NJ and the Wall Street market that rader travel from EWR.
 
cokepopper
Topic Author
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RE: Will Delta Announce EWR-FCO?

Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:08 pm

With todays environment, wouldn't it be more about alliance coverage? SkyTeam giving their members
access to ALL of NYC. Not just Delta, but all of SkyTeam? If AF/KL/AZ decide to pull out of EWR
why wouldn't Delta keep the coverage as they are doing with AMS/CDG. Also with the argument of
"east/west" of the Hudson. I believe the recent toll increases and the price of gas make these two
airports even further apart..

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