ryanrap1
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:49 pm

I know many people are skeptical about Frontiers decision on TTN but I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full. I know a full plane does not equal profit however it appears people are interested! I really hope this works for Frontier!
 
stlgph
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:57 pm

Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

http://www.njfishandwildlife.com/pdf/wildcolor.pdf
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
point2point
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:09 pm

I think that if F9 and TTN do some basic economics, and give a good guestimate as to how many pax in the area will be willing to use F9 and TTN (rather than drive to PHI or EWR) and to what destinations these pax are willing to pay X amount of $ to get there, then this definitely has a good chance to succeed. I would imagine that there is a lot of solid data out there available for both F9 and TTN to mine, and if an equilibrium is achieved so that the pax, airport and airline are happy with the results, possibilities are certainly there.

Basic economics here....... this is where it all starts.

And all the best to TTN, F9, an the folks in the area.......


 
 
GentFromAlaska
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting ryanrap1 (Thread starter):
I was looking at some of the routes and loads from there website and a lot of the lfights look almost completely full

A true test will be after the TTN introductory fares expire. It appears F9 may have found a niche at TTN/Princeton roughly halfway between Philly and NYC. I'm not yet convinced about the 6X weekly ATL service; but maybe. I think to much capacity to soon.

F9 also needs to put into place a means to to grab some of the fliers in a 40-60 mile radius around the TTN airport. Cheap fares in a ULCC model or undercutting other carriers at PHL and EWR is not the sole answer.

In the late 90's early 20XX F9 used motor coach service to move passengers from DEN to the ski slopes and if memory serves me to a park and ride or sporting venue. In the TTN corridor I think the high frequency mega bus might just fit neatly if they can negotiate a deviation or add a second stop at the airport. Because mega bus does not yet offer service from Philly to Princeton it allows them to test the market for potential future service.

F9 needs to find an economical marketing platform such as using the Interstate state-line visitor welcome stations with a state specific brochure showing all of the service offered in that state. Thousands of motorist use these resources daily. Illuminated signage marketing the F9 brand hanging on a wall at the welcome centers would also be economical advertising. It would stick in my memory.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

Although not specifically native to New Jersey. I was thinking about the Chesapeake Bay blue crab. With all of the Florida flying a Manatee can't be to far away.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
nkops
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:03 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

Greenheads and mosquitoes??
:evil:
 
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mariner
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
I'm not yet convinced about the 6X weekly ATL service; but maybe. I think to much capacity to soon.

I think Frontier probably agrees with you - TTN-ATL is 4 x weekly.  

mariner
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PHLBOS
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:15 pm

I've always stated for years that an airport like TTN needs a mainstream LFC to come in.

Previous carriers were either small Johnny Come Latelys that don't survive for too long or commuter/regional affiliates to legacy carriers w/sky-high fares.

That said, F9 coming to TTN makes perfect sense.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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mariner
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 6):
That said, F9 coming to TTN makes perfect sense.

One puzzle I have is with the Trenton Takes Off Sweepstakes:

http://planetprinceton.com/2013/01/1...ces-trenton-takes-off-sweepstakes/

"Frontier Airlines today announced a sweepstakes for people who live in the Princeton and Trenton area and travel through Trenton-Mercer Airport. The sweepstakes, which runs through May 31, will award weekly and monthly prizes, as well as a grand prize in May. Participants can enter the sweepstakes by registering at the Frontier Airlines website. No purchase is necessary to enter.

One grand prize winner will be selected on June 1 to receive a dozen round-trip flights out of Trenton-Mercer Airport for a year. Sweepstakes participants must be 18 years or older. Resident of Delaware, New Jersey and Pennsylvania are eligible to enter."


I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

mariner
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ScottB
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:31 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.

There's a joke about Snooki & JWoww's rear ends in there somewhere...   
 
DiamondFlyer
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting ScottB (Reply 8):
There's a joke about Snooki & JWoww's rear ends in there somewhere.

They'd need to pick up an A380 to get them both on the tail.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
PHLBOS
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:33 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

While PHL is closer to Delaware (it's only 11-12 miles from the State Line via I-95); if the the fare at PHL's high enough to cancel out any extra gas spent to head further north in West Trenton (where TTN is actually located), then it is indeed an option for somebody living in northern Delaware.

Not all of F9's nonstop routes out of TTN have LFC competition out of PHL.

[Edited 2013-01-18 16:34:05]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
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mariner
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Not all of F9's nonstop routes out of TTN have LFC competition out of PHL.

Starting with CMH - I was surprised to see that. It made sense of some of Frontier's choices.

Thanks.

mariner
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GentFromAlaska
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:33 am

Borrowed from the Frontier's New TTN Cities thread.

TTN-MDW starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X weekly ex Saturday
TTN-ATL starts April 8, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Mon,Wed, Fri, Sat)
TTN-DTW starts Apirl 9, 2013 and is 4X Weekly (Sun, Tue, Thur, Fri)
TTN-CMH Starts April 8, 2013 and is 3X Weekly (Sun, Mon, Thur)
TTN-RDU Starts April 8, 2013 and is 6X Weekly ex Saturday

Quoting mariner (Reply 5):
TTN-ATL is 4 x weekly.

Thanks for keeping me in   

Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service. Obviously F9 sees something. That region of N.C. is referred to as the triangle region encompassing Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill; all college towns. I suppose TTN will soon have access to good North Carolina BBQ.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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mariner
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:09 am

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 12):
Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service.

See above.

When Southwest ends RDU-PHL in March (2 x daily), there will be no LCC service RDU-PHL/EWR. The nearest would be JetBlue's RDU-JFK.

I suppose some will say that Southwest ending the route isn't a good sign, but I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

New England. Hmmmmm.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
rampart
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:12 am

Quoting stlgph (Reply 1):
Looking forward to New Jersey-inspired tails.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):

Although not specifically native to New Jersey. I was thinking about the Chesapeake Bay blue crab. With all of the Florida flying a Manatee can't be to far away.

How about a horseshoe crab? Not terribly photogenic, but funny.


Or maybe a shad.


 
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
In the late 90's early 20XX F9 used motor coach service to move passengers from DEN to the ski slopes and if memory serves me to a park and ride or sporting venue. In the TTN corridor I think the high frequency mega bus might just fit neatly if they can negotiate a deviation or add a second stop at the airport. Because mega bus does not yet offer service from Philly to Princeton it allows them to test the market for potential future service.

America West did this to a couple locations in the Phoenix area, such as Scottsdale. I think Frontier 1.0 did it to Boulder once upon a time.

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
I had not thought of Delaware as being in the TTN catchment area - I thought it would be much closer to PHL - but may it's just my sense of geography?

Fairly direct up I-295, no tolls, and faster than the parallel NJ Turnpike from my experience.

-Rampart
 
Flytravel
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:30 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
Fairly direct up I-295, no tolls, and faster than the parallel NJ Turnpike from my experience.

-Rampart

There is the Delaware Mem. Bridge toll on the return using I-295. No toll on I-95 though between No. Delaware and TTN.
 
rampart
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 15):
There is the Delaware Mem. Bridge toll on the return using I-295. No toll on I-95 though between No. Delaware and TTN.

I forgot the bridge, thanks! Everyone has to pay to leave NJ, but it's free to get into NJ. To bastardize The Eagles, you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.   As for I-95, I think of going through Philly and NE Philly with more traffic.
 
Flytravel
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:29 am

Along with free parking, most of TTN's suburban catchment can reach TTN without tolls:

NJ: Mercer, Middlesex, Somerset, Hunterdon, Burlington, Camden, Gloucester, Monmouth, Ocean
PA: Philadelphia, Delaware Co.
DE: New Castle

Montgomery and Bucks Co. PA might need to take PA Turnpike but the drive is tolerable and typically less traffic than a drive to PHL. Some might fly into TTN to reach NYC or AC which has tolls to deal with though.
 
Bobloblaw
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:33 am

I think Florida will do ok. But not the others.
 
phlwok
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:07 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
While PHL is closer to Delaware (it's only 11-12 miles from the State Line via I-95); if the the fare at PHL's high enough to cancel out any extra gas spent to head further north in West Trenton (where TTN is actually located), then it is indeed an option for somebody living in northern Delaware.

As someone who lives a few miles on the Delaware side of the DE/PA border, this certainly isn't a drive I'd look forward to during or within a few hours of rush hour. I dread the commutes to my clients up in Princeton. There are several choke points along 95, and 295 has problems of its own between route 42 and the Mt Laurel area. FWIW I haven't seen any F9 advertising down this way either. I can usually get to PHL in about 20 min, 25 min if I use PA 291 as an alternate due to traffic, whereas it's about 1 hr 20 min to TTN with no traffic, which would be unusual. There would have to be a huge price difference to not only make the extra gas worth it, but the additional time.

Quoting rampart (Reply 16):
I forgot the bridge, thanks! Everyone has to pay to leave NJ, but it's free to get into NJ. To bastardize The Eagles, you can check out any time you want, but you can never leave.

There are plenty of jokes in the reason about this  
 
F9Animal
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:37 am

I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs. The market seems good. I just fear that F9 will go 3 months, and start pulling routes.

As for the bus idea... Boltbus was trying to work with Bellingham Airport to get a stop at the airport. The CEO of Bolt told me the airport top dogs would not return phone calls, and didnt seem interested. I suggested he contact Allegiant, but never heard anything else. Bolt has several buses running out of Seattle to Vancouver now, and noticed Bellingham has started. Maybe Boltbus should have a look at TTN?
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
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illinoisman
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 18):
think Florida will do ok. But not the others.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just fear that F9 will go 3 months, and start pulling routes.

Remember when the COS routes were announced and everyone started jumping for joy thinking it was going to be the next big thing for F9? Well, its only been a year and already they've folded up the tents over there. Let's see how many of these TTN routes remain come next April.
 
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mariner
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Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs.

It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey, F9, all the airline can do is offer.

It's the oldest rule in the book - use it or lose it.

mariner
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 3):
F9 also needs to put into place a means to to grab some of the fliers in a 40-60 mile radius around the TTN airport. Cheap fares in a ULCC model or undercutting other carriers at PHL and EWR is not the sole answer.
Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey,

Three other factors --

(1) PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

(2) The Pennsylvania Turnpike, the New Jersey Turnpike, I-95, I-195, and I-295 all feed traffic into the Trenton area making it easier to reach.

(3) Previous airlines at TTN were leisure-oriented and really didn't connect to anything.
 
alphascan
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
Previous airlines at TTN were leisure-oriented and really didn't connect to anything.

F9 is leisure orientated and really doesn't connect to anything from TTN.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
rampart
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
Quoting F9animal (Reply 20):
I just hope F9 plants itself and maintains service for a decent amount of time before pulling plugs.

It's really up to the good folk of New Jersey, F9, all the airline can do is offer.

It's the oldest rule in the book - use it or lose it.

I wish they had the financial and fleet latitude to be able to develop a route to profitability, and not drop in less than a year. In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much? Were they nearly profitable and possibly trending up? I was just in COS, F9 prominently advertising within the terminal and billboards around town, all advertising the new routes which were JUST cancelled, front page news in the paper. TTN does not deserve a similar fate. If I could wish F9 something, it would be for solid staying power, which entails some commitment and consistency from the company. I would think a full year would be a minimum to try to figure that out.

-Rampart
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 12):

Have we figured out any commonality which ties or would justify 6x weekly TTN-RDU service. Obviously F9 sees something.

There's quite a bit of pharmaceutical traffic between PHL-RDU. It's been served by at least 4 different airlines in the past 12 years. I'm not very familiar with the PHL region, but perhaps F9 is getting their feet wet to see if they can capture any of that traffic from TTN. I don't think pharmacor is a very price sensitive group, so I think F9 will have an uphill battle.

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I suppose some will say that Southwest ending the route isn't a good sign, but I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

For years WN avoided airports with chronic delays. When they announced their large op at PHL, I figured it wouldn't last, however, I was just beginning to think they'd proved me wrong when they began their pull down over a year ago.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
New England. Hmmmmm.

With WN PHL-PVD pull back I wonder if TTN-PVD might just be on radar. PVD is my favoritie airport when I travel to the greater Boston area; although I-95 needs a lot of work around Warwick to the Mass state line. Some of the potholes could break an axle. Rental cars also cost roughly half in PVD when compared to BOS on or off the airport.

I think TTN-PWM might be another niche market at least seasonally. The water front/wharf and foodie circuit is less than five miles from the airport

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 19):
There would have to be a huge price difference to not only make the extra gas worth it,

Those who decide to drive (park and fly) should be able to use TTN free parking. The least expensive local long term parking I can take advantage of off terminal is $8.00 per day which involves a shuttle bus transport to the terminal; $24 or more per day on terminal.

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
(1) PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

And this may be the reason the mega-bus or any other commercial transporter has not yet established Philly-Princeton service. I wonder if Amtrak would be an option at the wrong time of day? (or is that all day) www.amtrak.com shows two stops in Philly and fares without any sort of discounts in a range from $28 to $39 from the 30th street stop and $28 from the north-side stop to Trenton. F9 might consider negotiating a contract or a special arrangement which would mirror validating any cost between the Trenton/Princeton transit stop and the airport for a ticketed passengers.

As time allows I may take a look at all of the F9 flight departure times out of TTN to every city the fly from TTN. I find it hard to believe a flyer would have to travel to Trenton the day prior. When I'm home I live 55 miles from the BNA airport. The earliest I've ever walked out of the house for the hour drive to the airport is 4:00 AM to drive the 55 miles to catch a 6:05 AM flight. Of course there is little road traffic and little to no TSA backlog as BNA wakes up.

I go back to a visit in BCN several years ago where after flying all night I had to take a cab to a train station and change trains twice ride the rail twice for 70 km and thereafter switch over to another car for an additional 25 km drive. I looked at it as a since of adventure. Ironically I made friends with a group of firefighters from Hoboken N.J. who visited the region annually.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:14 pm

Cos- the airport I really thought had potential and flights were full. I dont want ttn to end same
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 25):
I wish they had the financial and fleet latitude to be able to develop a route to profitability, and not drop in less than a year. In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much?

I had fairly high hopes for COS, too, but began to worry about it quite early in the process - the bookings didn't look that exciting.

There are reasons why Westpac left COS - planes were full at low fares but Westpac couldn't get a premium over DEN so it did the obvious and moved to DEN.

The evidence would suggest COS is not a distinct market form DEN and with the E190's are going away, Frontier does not believe that COS can support the A319 on DEN-COS.

TTN is a distinct market and there are some very low intro fares. But also on two of the first three Friday MSY flights, for example, some of the highest one way fares in Frontier's entire network, on flights are are almost full.

Given an intensely constrained fleet, I know where I'd put the aircraft.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 10:20:07]
aeternum nauta
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
I think that's more about Southwest at PHL - it's cut a bunch of stuff there, including all of New England.

http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

New England. Hmmmmm.

The wickedlocal writer failed to mention the FL subsidiary will continue to fly PHL-BOS. It also looks like FL will continue to fly the PHL-RDU http://airtran.innosked.com/%28S%28m...qzlk45b4zxs1v3%29%29/Default.aspx. The exception being FL currently charges luggage fees.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 30):
It also looks like FL will continue to fly the PHL-RDU

I just tried to book RDU-PHL in March and April on the Airtran website, and couldn't find a non-stop - only through ATL.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 12:23:30]
aeternum nauta
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
I just tried to book RDU-PHL
Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
and couldn't find a non-stop - only through ATL.

Price would ultimately be the deciding factor if I would fly PHL-ATL-RDU with a TTN-RDU option. Driving would take 8-10 hours. I didn't look at specific flight times or schedules just lines on the route map.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
 
Sligo
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:16 pm

Quoting alphascan (Reply 24):
F9 is leisure orientated

As mariner can attest to : ) ....Im having trouble swallowing this.

It's just a plane and it flies a schedule....there's nothing inherent about F9 that would make it abhorrent to business travelers. Business travelers want to fly non-stop, they want sufficient frequency and of course price elaticity is still there to a lesser extent.

If F9 is flying 3x on biz days at fares equal to EWR/PHL and you're flying non-stop to the markets that matter, then biz travelers who could avoid an hour ride to EWR will be throwing away their UA status and its +/- 30% upgrade chances down the toilet.

This isnt like F9s other experiments in big markets where they had to cherry-pick and thus were stifled from building a relationship with the business community; F9 has stumbled upon a truly differentiated product and can be alone in the market serving a host of markets; MDW/ATL/BOS/RDU/etc. etc. F9 also doesnt have a reputaton of any sort to contend with. If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.



[Edited 2013-01-19 14:22:02]
 
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mariner
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 32):
Price would ultimately be the deciding factor if I would fly PHL-ATL-RDU with a TTN-RDU option. Driving would take 8-10 hours. I didn't look at specific flight times or schedules just lines on the route map.

It seems they are misleading. Airtran has - or had - those lines on the map for RDU-BOS, but when I checked the flights, it was the same story as RDU-PHL - no non-stops, or none that I was offered. Only RDU-ATL-BOS.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 14:28:15]
aeternum nauta
 
phlwok
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:59 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 23):
PHL is on the southern border of Philadelphia, making folks from the northern suburbs (TTN's location) need to leave the day before to catch a flight because of Philadelphia's gridlock.

Sorry, but that's simply not true. Folks drive to PHL from the northern suburbs all the time, and unless you have perhaps a 5:30 am flight and want to sleep in as long as possible and live a good ways away, there is absolutely no need to stay overnight near the airport. Maybe if you were driving from Scranton, but then you'd probably just fly out of AVP anyway and connect.

Quoting rduddji (Reply 26):
There's quite a bit of pharmaceutical traffic between PHL-RDU. It's been served by at least 4 different airlines in the past 12 years. I'm not very familiar with the PHL region, but perhaps F9 is getting their feet wet to see if they can capture any of that traffic from TTN. I don't think pharmacor is a very price sensitive group, so I think F9 will have an uphill battle.

PHL/EWR-RDU can be day tripped, which can be very useful for business traveler and drives some of the frequencies you see into there. F9 will need this frequency to be a plausible contender.

There is plenty of pharma in the Philly area as well as the Princeton corridor, and there is plenty of other business traffic between the two cities as well.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
Those who decide to drive (park and fly) should be able to use TTN free parking. The least expensive local long term parking I can take advantage of off terminal is $8.00 per day which involves a shuttle bus transport to the terminal; $24 or more per day on terminal.

$8/day is about right for PHL off airport parking. Max is $20/day in the garages (more in short term, but you're not allowed to park overnight there). The garages often fill by midweek, so that price point clearly isn't driving off demand, much of it tied to business travel where it's reimbursable.
 
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:59 pm

Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
It's just a plane and it flies a schedule....there's nothing inherent about F9 that would make it abhorrent to business travelers.

Frontier isn't abhorrent to business travellers - many do fly Frontier (just as a fair number fly Allegiant) especially on routes such as DEN-DCA.

The difference is that the schedules are not opitmized for business travel - and that involves frequency.

The often maligned Republic CEO Bedford got it spot-on right, as with so many things, when he said that Frontier is a leisure airline and Midwest is (was) a business airline, and it was tough to marry the two.

It is a CW that business travellers demand frequency - but every time Frontier has tried that it hasn't worked, and since that umbilical cord was cut Frontier's financial position has improved dramatically.

Quoting Sligo (Reply 33):
If the stats show that 3x a day to MDW (or any other business market) can keep higher yielding business flying from the airport they'd prefer to fly to...and F9 makes the commitment to that kind of frequency and it works, then viola; F9 will be a business airline as far as this 2-4 million person catchment is concerned.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. If the actual stats, as in bums on seats, show that TTN-MDW can support more frequency, then it may happen.

But we have yet to find out if TTN-MDW will support 6 x weekly, and if so, can it support that through winter?

Daniel Shurz on TTN:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-01-1...ort-frontier-airlines-daniel-shurz

"It's very much targeted to leisure customers"

Hindsight tells us that Frontier "should have known" that the leisure TTN-MCO could support 4 x weekly, but when it was first announced (as 2 x weekly) many said it would never last.

It's all theory at the moment, no one actually knows, and it's part of the fun of TTN for me.  

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-19 15:05:55]
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 29):
The evidence would suggest COS is not a distinct market form DEN and with the E190's are going away, Frontier does not believe that COS can support the A319 on DEN-COS.

TTN is a distinct market and there are some very low intro fares. But also on two of the first three Friday MSY flights, for example, some of the highest one way fares in Frontier's entire network, on flights are are almost full.

I've thought of COS and DEN as the same market for some time. Otherwise, Denver is one of the largest metro areas in the nation served by only 1 airport. The bleed from COS to DEN is considerable, proof enough. As with any large metro area with a choice of airports, there is supposed to be some semblance of reverse bleed, and that used to be the case for places like BUR, ONT, ISP, MHT, and HPN, and COS in the WP days. Though, the trend over the last decade for alternate airports is a net loss. I would disagree that TTN is its own market, however. By definition, without continuous service, the Trenton-Princeton market has to go elsewhere to fly (unlike COS, or BUR, or MHT, which do have continuous and relatively good service). I think TTN can serve as a reasonable alternate market to Philadelphia metro and part of northern NJ metro, as well as itself. But I thought that about COS, too.

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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:38 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 37):
I would disagree that TTN is its own market, however

By "distinct market" - I meant for Frontier.

TTN is a distinct market, separate from DEN or its environs, which would include COS, or even FNL and maybe PUB. Frontier pax can easily drive from COS to DEN for a Frontier flight to anywhere in the system.

Frontier has no other base/focus city/hub in the north east, and the markets from TTN are independent of what is available at DEN.

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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:59 am

Quoting rampart (Reply 14):
I think Frontier 1.0 did it to Boulder once upon a time.

That may be what I was thinking about. In my mind it was more than five years ago but less than ten years. I want to say it was in the Jeff Potter era.
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 17):
Montgomery and Bucks Co. PA might need to take PA Turnpike but the drive is tolerable and typically less traffic than a drive to PHL.

They can take Route 1 or 95 without paying tolls.
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:18 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 40):

They can take Route 1 or 95 without paying tolls.

Via Rt 1 they would have to make a small diverson and take the toll-free lower trenton Bridge (aka the Trenton Makes the World Takes Bridge) westbound or pay a reasonable $1 toll to use the Trenton-Morrisville Rt 1 Bridge.

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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:25 am

New Article about the convience of Trenton Mercer Airport from the Philadelphia Inquirer

Trenton-Mercer: A hassle free airport
http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130120_Air_Travel_For_All.html

Interesting quote: I guess we can add TTN to the list of airports with PFCs

"The county will make other capital improvements, including outfitting a restaurant, with revenue from passenger-facility charges, jet-fuel sales, and landing and other fees, "based on Frontier's needs and the number of people who come through the door," Hughes said. (Mercer County Executive Brian M. Hughes)
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 1:09 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 39):

That may be what I was thinking about. In my mind it was more than five years ago but less than ten years. I want to say it was in the Jeff Potter era.

Try 20 years. I was thinking of the pre-1995 version of Frontier, the original "local service" airline. I found a 1983 route map on DepartedFlights.com that shows the bus service from DEN to Boulder (Hilton Hotel) and Fort Collins (Ramada Inn). Apparently this only happened in 1983.

http://www.departedflights.com/FL060183.html

Side note: I find it amazing the number of small cities that sustained 737 service. Good times.

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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:13 pm

Drove out to Lancaster yesterday to go outlet shopping, there were Frontier signs promoting TTN all along the way as far out as Norristown. I think it's got a legit chance to work out in the long run, something like WN at ISP or NK at ACY.
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 43):

This may be what I was thinking about http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4813 slightly more than ten years ago..
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 45):
This may be what I was thinking about http://media.flyfrontier.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4813 slightly more than ten years ago.

Ah, OK. Wasn't aware of that one. At that time, F9 still had management from the earlier Frontier (FL), I think?

It's hard looking back, what F9 was at it's apex.

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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 42):

Nice article; thanks for posting. Several events are mentioned in Florida. I checked a couple of other markets including TTN-MSY. Using two random days in early February the ITA software http://matrix.itasoftware.comview/fl...e1a868-0cc3-4206-8c89-45dd6fedfbd5

F9 round trip non-stop flight TTN-MSY still populates for $108.00 and is actually doable as a same day trip. For those with a sense of adventure and a little expendable income. It could be the perfect lunch or gambling flight. F9 flight arrives in MSY at 10:05 A.M. and departs back to TTN at 5:05 P.M arriving in TTN shortly after 8:00 P.M.

For a $108.00 r/t I'd fly down just to bring a cooler of fresh Gulf seafood back. The fish and seafood mongers in the TTN area are foolish if they don't do the same. I know NYC has good seafood and has one of the worlds largest wholesale operations. But how could one not take advantage of the MSY opportunity at least until the intro fares expire. F9 might want to consider marketing the MSY flight for that very reason.
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting rampart (Reply 25):
In the example of COS, I wonder what the revenue was like for the different new routes. Were they profitable, but not too much? Were they nearly profitable and possibly trending up?

This article in the Gazette gives quite a lot of information about what happened at COS - although obviously not actual profit/loss figures:

http://www.gazette.com/articles/fron...ier-149910-elsewhere-airlines.html

"Frontier Airlines short-lived “focus city” experiment in Colorado Springs failed because the Denver-based carrier underestimated how willing local passengers are to drive to Denver for a wide selection of inexpensive flights, the experiment’s architect says.

Daniel Shurz talks about each of the routes and what happened. It isn't entirely a lost cause - PHX stays at 6 x weekly, and LAX retains service (3x) at least through the summer.

But it keeps coming back to the essential point - the public appetite for low fares and I assume that partly helps to explain the immediate reaction to TTN:

"“The challenge is that the market knows there is high-frequency, low-fare service to virtually any market of significant size from Denver,” Shurz said. “We know there is healthy demand — Colorado Springs is large enough to generate that demand, but when you compare multiple daily flights in Denver to several flights a week from Colorado Springs, it turned out to be more of a challenge than we thought. At times when demand was high, we could get the fares where they were economically viable, but the trick is not doing it in July, it is doing it in enough months to generate a profit.”

It's a good read.

mariner

[Edited 2013-01-20 10:04:02]
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RE: Frontier - TTN Smart Move

Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):


http://blogs.wickedlocal.com/massmar...and-to-philadelphia/#axzz2INoxI6DV

"Southwest Airlines drops all flights out of New England to Philadelphia"

It's worth noting (and you likely already know this, but for those that don't) that the above-posted blog entry is from last year.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 27):
I wonder if Amtrak would be an option at the wrong time of day? (or is that all day) www.amtrak.com shows two stops in Philly and fares without any sort of discounts in a range from $28 to $39 from the 30th street stop and $28 from the north-side stop to Trenton

Some clarification is needed here. TTN is actually located in West Trenton and not the City of Trenton itself. So unless there's a bus service from either NJ Transit or the agency running TTN itself; Amtrak may not help someone in doing a PHL-TTN link. However, (as mentioned in the previous F9-TTN thread) SEPTA does have the West Trenton line which links Center City to the West Trenton stop, which is about 1 mile from TTN; close enough for TTN officials to operate a shuttle bus service from the train station to the airport if it wanted to.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 30):
The wickedlocal writer failed to mention the FL subsidiary will continue to fly PHL-BOS.

   FL hasn't flown PHL-BOS since early Nov. 2007 and WN itself dropped all of its PHL-New England routes just over a year ago. Addiitonally, B6 isn't starting PHL-BOS until this May 23; so US, for now, has no competition on this route. While one could do a PHL-EWR-BOS itinerary via UA, there may not be a major difference in airfare and the overall travel time (including connection layover) would likely be not that much shorter than driving.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 41):
Via Rt 1 they would have to make a small diverson and take the toll-free lower trenton Bridge (aka the Trenton Makes the World Takes Bridge) westbound or pay a reasonable $1 toll to use the Trenton-Morrisville Rt 1 Bridge.

Not that much of a big deal. Since TTN is adjacent to I-95 vs. US 1 (the latter goes into the City of Trenton itself), somebody using US 1 from either Northeast Philly or Lower Bucks County can simply connect to I-95 near Langhorne (I-95's Exit 46).

Quoting PHLwok (Reply 35):
Sorry, but that's simply not true. Folks drive to PHL from the northern suburbs all the time, and unless you have perhaps a 5:30 am flight and want to sleep in as long as possible and live a good ways away, there is absolutely no need to stay overnight near the airport.

   While I-95 from Center City to Northeast Philly does indeed have its typical rush-hour jams (southbound AM/northbound PM); off-peak travel is usually not a prblem unless there's an accident or construction-related lane closure... both of which can cause a jam on any highway at anytime.

BTW, TTN is only a 43-mile drive from PHL via I-95; less than a one-hour drive (non-rush-hour).

[Edited 2013-01-20 13:30:53]
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