iowaman
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SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:44 pm

As the previous thread was quite lengthy please continue the discussion here.

Previous thread: SFO Aviation Thread Part 1 (by DolphinAir747 Dec 17 2012 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2013-01-19 08:52:31]
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 3:08 am

With the development of the 787 and coming A350, what affect will this aircraft have on the Bay Area airports with regards to airlines adding International flights at OAK/SJC instead of the traditional SFO?

The 787, in particular, has been developed for long thin routes. ANA has a 2 class cabin with 158 seats flying their SJC route. This is less than some carriers 738/9 flying domestic flights.

SFO is constrained but appears to be growing and will surpass 42 million paxs this year. They are adding 2 new International carriers, MU & SK, so far this year. Why does SFO have 16+ daily flights to New york but SJC has only one?

These are all questions and hopefully will be answered this year.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:02 am

I've always been puzzled by the lack of UA EWR-SJC. UA does fly EWR-SNA in addition to EWR-LAX, after all.

Does NH have a spare 763 or 77W to send to SJC?
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:07 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 2):
Does NH have a spare 763 or 77W to send to SJC?

I read in another forum the probable reason for NH not to send a replacement aircraft to SJC is the close proximity to SFO with their own flight. Furthermore, they have a JV with UA and can accommodate the SJC passengers during this slow season.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:30 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 3):

I noticed today that there were two ANA 77Ws in SFO today, the usual flight at G, and a second at A. I'm curious to know if this is ANA's response to passenger backlog from SJC.
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:00 am

Quoting N782NC (Reply 4):

Unfortunately, I am out f the Country now but that is interesting. If there was a NH cancelation yesterday into SFO, maybe an extra rotation. I just checked the NH site and there was a medical diversion yesterday. The regular NH flight arrived about 5 pm and due to gate availability, used the A Gates for arrival.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 2):

With the Bay Area leaning more toward the *A, I often wonder why UA does not at least fly to all their hubs from SJC. There must be more to it that we are not seeing.

[Edited 2013-01-19 21:13:29]
 
as739x
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:19 am

Quoting N782NC (Reply 4):

I noticed today that there were two ANA 77Ws in SFO today, the usual flight at G, and a second at A. I'm curious to know if this is ANA's response to passenger backlog from SJC.

The second one that arrived at A-side is parked out at Plot-41 near Super Bay. That was NRT-SEA that could not get in due to SEA WX which was in the crapper this morning.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...8/history/20130119/1800Z/KSEA/KSFO

[Edited 2013-01-19 21:21:30]
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:32 am

Quoting as739x (Reply 6):

Thanks for the info. Interesting how SFO was chosen but I guess since they have staff there, it makes sense.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:50 am

Not sure if this was discussed before. What do you guys think had they relocated SJC to Moffett Field location? Beside the politic and complaint from Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Sarataga residences, I thought Moffett is a better location and has more room to grow. What you do think?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:14 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 5):
With the Bay Area leaning more toward the *A, I often wonder why UA does not at least fly to all their hubs from SJC. There must be more to it that we are not seeing.

Back in the day, you could get from SJC to Chicago and Dulles all day long - I used to prefer to fly Dulles to SJC back in the airstairs days before the rental car center During the height of the .coms, they were packed.

Before the merger, they had axed it ALL.

NS
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:00 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 9):

It is amazing how times have changed. I believe during the early 1990s, AA did not even have flights between SFO and MIA.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting vtdl (Reply 8):

Not sure if this was discussed before. What do you guys think had they relocated SJC to Moffett Field location? Beside the politic and complaint from Sunnyvale, Cupertino, Sarataga residences, I thought Moffett is a better location and has more room to grow. What you do think?

Why? SJC is an under utilized facility as it is with a new state of the art terminal. It has parallel runways that have both been extended in the last 10 years. And limited curfew and noise restrictions, much more lenient then Moffet would have. Remember the approach to Moffet from the SW is some of the wealthiest communities in the entire country. Let now forget the fact it's government owned to top it all off.
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:15 am

Just wondering, when did UA cut SFO-MIA? Why are they flying SFO-FLL rather than SFO-MIA?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 12):

MIA was closed in the early 2000's when UA closed the S. American hub at MIA. The reason behind FLL over MIA I'd imagine is a combination of cost, not going against AA and FLL being a growing destination for UA. It's also just another market they overlap with VX, which will continue to lower yeild in those markets.
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:04 am

How big of a freighter market did TWA have out of SFO and what was their routings?







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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 1):
Why does SFO have 16+ daily flights to New york but SJC has only one?
Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 2):
I've always been puzzled by the lack of UA EWR-SJC. UA does fly EWR-SNA in addition to EWR-LAX, after all.

CO did fly SJC-EWR up until a few years ago. UA discontinued SJC-IAD and SJC-ORD at about the same time (and AA is down to 1/daily SJC-ORD).

AA once had 3 daily SJC-JFK flights, including sometimes a 762. At one time AA also had 4/daily SJC-BOS flights (!!!!).

I never get why SJC can't support more flights also. It seems like the cachement area is just as populated as SFO and it's a great airport.

Quoting as739x (Reply 6):
The second one that arrived at A-side is parked out at Plot-41 near Super Bay. That was NRT-SEA that could not get in due to SEA WX which was in the crapper this morning.

It's been really foggy all over the SEA region all weekend. But yeah, I'm surprised the ANA flight didn't divert to YVR, PDX or GEG which are much closer than going down to SFO.

Quoting legacyins (Reply 3):
I read in another forum the probable reason for NH not to send a replacement aircraft to SJC is the close proximity to SFO with their own flight. Furthermore, they have a JV with UA and can accommodate the SJC passengers during this slow season.

I hope the 787 problems don't sabotage the success of the NRT-SJC flight. What did it operate for like 3 days until the grounding?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:40 pm

Any update on the possible El Torrito meet up?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting mikeology (Reply 16):
Any update on the possible El Torrito meet up?

I'll be in SJC from 2/1 - 2/4 so I'm up for it. What is the best time of day to go, in terms of best action on the 28s?

If that doesn't work, I'll also be in SJC in late March and late April. I'd like to join you guys if my personal SJC travel plans fit into everyone else's schedule.

Hopefully the NH flight to SJC will be operating again by then. Of course that will be good in many more ways that one......
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 15):
It's been really foggy all over the SEA region all weekend. But yeah, I'm surprised the ANA flight didn't divert to YVR, PDX or GEG which are much closer than going down to SFO.

There could be a lot of reasons for that. SFO already had a NH flight on the ground, so the staffing was in place for the arrival and to help with passenger accommodations. YVR is an international destination and you may have passengers unable to enter Canada. GEG was probably full of other diverts and PDX the same. Just throwing some ideas out there.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 17):
I'll be in SJC from 2/1 - 2/4 so I'm up for it. What is the best time of day to go, in terms of best action on the 28s?

Morning: The Asia arrivals start rolling in around 830a-then departing 1130a-100p. As the Asia flights depart the Euro's start arriving, unfortunately no LH A380 at 12:20p, 747 currently.

I'll be sitting on the beach in the South Pacific that week, so get some good pics.
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 17):
What is the best time of day to go, in terms of best action on the 28s?

I would say the best time would be around 11:00 to 11:30. That's about an hour before the early wave of flights from the EU are scheduled to arrive (KL 605 {MD-11}, AF 84, LH 454, and a bit later, BA 285 and VS 19), so if any of them end up being early, you'll still catch them. If you're still around near the 16:00 to 17:00 hours, you'll see BA 287 and LX 38, along with at least one BR flight from TPE.

Of course, that's just the international heavies I can think of off the top of my head...

Also, just a thought...given all of the discussion about SJC in general and the NH 787 service in particular, maybe this thread should be renamed "SF Bay Area Aviation Thread" so it's "officially" more all-inclusive? Just a thought  
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:26 pm

First it was VX and now UA. UNITED from 01APR13 is cancelling San Francisco – Toronto service, where it currently operates 6 weekly flights. Last departure from Toronto is 01APR13. Looking at their schedule, it was timed for their Asian flights.

After April 1st, AC will have the route to themselves but UA will probably codeshare on the route. Maybe we can see AC upgauge to a 767 during the summer months on at least one of their flights.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:22 am

Anybody know start date and frequency of SAS SFO to CPH service. The more I look at pics the more I want to go back to the Faroe Islands
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting mikeology (Reply 21):

Anybody know start date and frequency of SAS SFO to CPH service. The more I look at pics the more I want to go back to the Faroe Islands


Monday, April 8th. Flight will be 6x per week.

http://www.airlinesanddestinations.c...ervice-add-late-newark-cph-flight/
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:10 am

Does anyone know when UA Will deploy their newly configured 757 PS flights between SFO and JFK? Last I heard, it was to be rolled out last October but nothing since.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 20):
First it was VX and now UA. UNITED from 01APR13 is cancelling San Francisco – Toronto service, where it currently operates 6 weekly flights. Last departure from Toronto is 01APR13. Looking at their schedule, it was timed for their Asian flights.

How large is the O&D market?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 24):
How large is the O&D market?

I do believe that the number for O&D is 775 daily pax.

On that note, isn't there an agreement between UA/AC that make this a metal neutral route?

 
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 25):
On that note, isn't there an agreement between UA/AC that make this a metal neutral route?

AC-UA and have a JV. Does not matter who runs the route.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:24 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 26):
AC-UA and have a JV. Does not matter who runs the route.

So following an ideal, this is where the alliances can benefit each other.

With a good sized amount of traffic between the San Francisco and Toronto markets, if there is some yield to be made, frequency can be adjusted, or other carriers enter. In the meantime, with what AC and/or UA do on this route, all the revenues and expenses go into a common pot..... and then UA and AC take from this pot what belongs to each as per JV agreement.


So with the above, it seems as if all SFO-

[Edited 2013-02-01 16:27:34]
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 26):
AC-UA and have a JV. Does not matter who runs the route.

Except that SFO-YYZ is a carveout under the JV, so joint pricing and revenue sharing are not possible.
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Would SFO-CTU be a good UA route, maybe thrice weekly 772 or 788? Western China is booming%u2014just look at all the new service from Europe and the Middle East to CTU (KL, EY, QR, CA, BA)%u2014and the tech industry could certainly fill some seats at the front of the aircraft and cargo holds. Also, if the flight is timed to connect with CA's CTU-BLR flight, SFO-BLR pax would have a new, much shorter option. SFO-CTU-BLR adds less than 3% of the direct distance, whereas flying via FRA adds 18%.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:15 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 15):
At one time AA also had 4/daily SJC-BOS flights

When?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:37 am

Quoting timz (Reply 30):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 15):
At one time AA also had 4/daily SJC-BOS flights

When?

Around 2000-2001. I still have some old paper timetables from that time. AA had four SJC-AUS flights at the peak; and three SJC-JFK including a 762.

There were MD-80s to DEN, SEA, PDX, SAN, LAX, SNA and a shorted lived 738 to MIA, among others. AA was already discontinuing SJC-PDX (and SEA-SNA) before 9/11 happened and started a huge cutback at SJC.

Someone else counted 77 AA mainline flights a day from SJC. Where are there now, like 5? 1 ORD and 4 DFW or something like that? Plus the ERJs to LAX, and that's it for AA.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 29):
Would SFO-CTU be a good UA route, maybe thrice weekly 772 or 788? Western China is booming%u2014just look at all the new service from Europe and the Middle East to CTU (KL, EY, QR, CA, BA)%u2014and the tech industry could certainly fill some seats at the front of the aircraft and cargo holds. Also, if the flight is timed to connect with CA's CTU-BLR flight, SFO-BLR pax would have a new, much shorter option. SFO-CTU-BLR adds less than 3% of the direct distance, whereas flying via FRA adds 18%.

Does anyone think this could work?
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 32):

Hard to say. Look at UA and the SFO-CAN route. They were granted authority many years ago and were given extensions a couple of times. IMO, China is not the golden egg most people believe. Besides PEK and PVG, I do not see a great demand from the US to secondary cities in China.

So why are BA, KL, LH and others moving forward with their own flights? Who knows but you can rest assured they will discontinue those flights if they do not perform.
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:55 pm

SFO had its best year yet with over 44 million paxs in 2012. No surprise, UA is the dominate carrier with almost 50% and followed by a distant second with VX at 9%. Let us see what 2013 brings us with a few new carriers and flights.

From BAT:

http://thebat-sf.com/2013/02/05/sfo-...+B.A.T.+%28Bay+Area+Traveler%29%29
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:10 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 33):
Hard to say. Look at UA and the SFO-CAN route. They were granted authority many years ago and were given extensions a couple of times. IMO, China is not the golden egg most people believe. Besides PEK and PVG, I do not see a great demand from the US to secondary cities in China.

So why are BA, KL, LH and others moving forward with their own flights? Who knows but you can rest assured they will discontinue those flights if they do not perform.

The two are not fully comparable. First of all, CTU serves a very different area of China from the rest, whereas CAN is far too close to HKG—just like, say, EY does not fly to both JFK and PHL. Second, CTU is a *A hub, with the connection to BLR always being an interesting possibility to advertise. Last, because of the tech industry, Chengdu has many more connections than Guangzhou to Silicon Valley. Cargo should be especially good with iPhones, etc. Does anyone know the PDEW numbers for SFO-CTU?

China, especially Western China, is booming very, very quickly. LHR slots are far too valuable for BA to use them for useless flights. CAN, on the other hand, only sees AF among European carriers, and that's mostly due to CZ being in SkyTeam.
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 35):

Yes, China is still growing but it is still a developing Country and had no where to go but up. I have my own opinion about China as I just returned after two years living there. It is true PVG and PEK are different markets than CTU but what is the target market ? Look at all the connections SFO has to India, EK,BA,LH,AF,KL,OZ,KE,CA,CX,SQ ect.. Taking a UA flight to CTU from SFO and connecting to CA to India might work for some but not others. The market is price sensitive and in the end, that will fill the planes.
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:50 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 36):
Yes, China is still growing but it is still a developing Country and had no where to go but up. I have my own opinion about China as I just returned after two years living there. It is true PVG and PEK are different markets than CTU but what is the target market ? Look at all the connections SFO has to India, EK,BA,LH,AF,KL,OZ,KE,CA,CX,SQ ect.. Taking a UA flight to CTU from SFO and connecting to CA to India might work for some but not others. The market is price sensitive and in the end, that will fill the planes.

Yes, there is lots of price-sensitivity, though if UA flies profitably to larger yet far more competitive markets like PEK, PVG, and HKG, couldn't they charge slightly more for the only nonstop from the US to Western China? They could certainly find good yields from monopoly pricing for Apple executives in the front.
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Wed Feb 06, 2013 5:24 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 37):

I agree with you about Apple and others but something tells me NH got to them and is pushing them on their flight ( when it starts up again ) from SJC, even with a connection.
 
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:38 pm

I was at SFO today and saw Delta 208 arrive from NRT. After about an hour, a tug pulled the aircraft over to the domestic Delta gates and another tug pull a different 763 over to the International pier for the departure back to NRT.

Is this how they rotate aircraft to do maintenance checks?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 23):
Does anyone know when UA Will deploy their newly configured 757 PS flights between SFO and JFK? Last I heard, it was to be rolled out last October but nothing since.

The first aircraft is already modified.

United has already stopped selling F class on the p.s. routes effective June 6th.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 29):
Would SFO-CTU be a good UA route, maybe thrice weekly 772 or 788? Western China is booming

No. Daily demand is barely 25 folks from all of California.

The market can be served much better 1-stop on partners via other China, Korea or Japan gateways.

If any new China market will be sustained next by a US carrier it would be the long awaited Guangzhou which atleast has paper demand of almost a 100 daily passengers from SFO alone.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 37):
They could certainly find good yields from monopoly pricing for Apple executives in the front.

And how many really need to visit? Remember Foxconn HQ it Taipei.
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as739x
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:53 am

Quoting legacyins (Reply 39):
Is this how they rotate aircraft to do maintenance checks?

Yes
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 40):
No. Daily demand is barely 25 folks from all of California.

The market can be served much better 1-stop on partners via other China, Korea or Japan gateways.

Could NH fly a 737 on NRT-CTU?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:23 am

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 42):

Easily. It's only 1850nm vs say BOS-SFO 2350nm

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 24):
How large is the O&D market?

It wasn't really the issue of O/D traffic for Virgin. It was the loyalty of the Toronto and AC passengers to AC. Cush of VX even admitted as so when they dropped the route.

For UA, it simply putting our passengers on or business partners ac allowing the redeployment of the Airbus to another route.

My fingers are crossed for a new route, many of which are being looked at.
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LAXintl
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:59 pm

ANA already serves CTU with a 737 that connects from US services.

NH947 NRT-CTU 1715-2300
NH948 CTU-NRT 0930-1520

Also for Star, Asiana has a daily A321 service (as they do many secondary Chinese airports).
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legacyins
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:25 am

I was taking a walk around the Domestic Terminal today and took a couple of shots of how Pier E is coming along.


 
as739x
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 45):

And it can't open fast enough. We need those gates desperately.
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KDCA
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:25 pm

Will all T1 operations end for UA once pier E reopens? How many gates are planned for it? Will there be a United Club?
 
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:56 pm

Quoting KDCA (Reply 47):
Quoting KDCA (Reply 47):
Will all T1 operations end for UA once pier E reopens?

Not from what I am hearing. The gates at this time are planned as expansion and it's 10 gates last I heard. T-1 Ops will continue. I don't have access to the final prints anymore.
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RE: SFO Aviation Thread Part 2

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting as739x (Reply 48):
T-1 Ops will continue

That is really interesting to hear. When AA was using Pier E, they had it configured for nine gates. It looks like at least four of those were WB capable. Given all of the WB gates on Pier F and in Int G, would UA need any WB capable gates on Pier E? If not, it looks like they could comfortably fit twelve gates at Pier E. With the announcement of US/AA, there'd be no reason for US to move into the renovated Pier E. Even if AC's flights are handled there, that is a lot of additional gate capacity for UA mainline if the Express T1 operation continues.

Can UA really put all of that to use?