1400mph
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Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:12 am

Given the very limited slot availability at LHR and the presence of domestic LCC's at other London airports is the introduction of another carrier on LHR domestic routes really a good use of those limited slots ?

Keeping names of airlines out of it might help the thread to not degenerate !!
 
David_itl
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:16 am

Quoting 1400mph (Thread starter):
is the introduction of another carrier on LHR domestic routes really a good use of those limited slots ?

Perhaps you should have asked the EU that seeing that the conditions of BA buying BD included the provision of competition on certain domestic routes.
 
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CARST
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:46 am

All long-haul flights need feed from other flights, long- or short-haul. So I don't think domestic flights are a waste of slots. It does not matter if the feed comes from MAN, GLA, EDI, DUB, TXL, CDG, MAD, FRA, AMS, DEL, HKG, NRT or JFK. It does not matter if the feed is domestic, continental (EU/Europe), or from another arriving intercontinental flight.

In our dream-world all domestic flying in Europe perhaps would be eliminated by high-speed-rail service, trains running at 350 km/h from each city-center to the airports, no runs longer than 3h. But it won't happen. France is close, but still enough domestic flying going on there, too.
 
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:47 am

Quoting david_itl (Reply 1):
Perhaps you should have asked the EU that seeing that the conditions of BA buying BD included the provision of competition on certain domestic routes.

How does that work though ?

The provision of slots don't you mean ?
 
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 2):
All long-haul flights need feed from other flights, long- or short-haul. So I don't think domestic flights are a waste of slots.

Domestic flights certainly are not a waste of slots I agree.

Do we need two carriers providing them though at a highly congested airport like LHR ?

For example there do not seem to be many domestic flights arriving at FRA this morning that are not operated by LH ?

Maybe there is a reason for that. It is probably the same reason that resulted in BD's failure ?

[Edited 2013-01-24 00:01:28]
 
n729pa
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:06 am

I guess it's only a waste if the flights are empty, as otherwise they are revenue earners and as CARST mentions it's for international interlining too which is important. Given that there is no alternative from LHR-GLA say by train, then a flight it has to be. I don't think it doesn't really matters whether there are 10 domestic airlines operating from LHR or 2 or 3 the slots are essentially the same. It's just over time non-profit routes are cut, or mergers occur and the slots are realigned depending on the outcome.

I remember years ago (late 80s) we had a variety of domestic airlines at LHR including Dan Air, Air UK, Manx, Brymon as well as the BMA (BMI) and BA. In some ways it would be nice to have a bit more of a choice again.
 
Damian
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:08 am

In 2011, domestic routes at LHR were worth the following passenger numbers:

EDINBURGH 1,271,459 - (9th busiest route at LHR)
GLASGOW 82,0949 - (29th busiest route at LHR)
MANCHESTER 766,906 - (31st busiest route at LHR)
ABERDEEN 652,520 - (39th busiest route at LHR)
NEWCASTLE 473,614 -(57th busiest route at LHR)
BELFAST CITY (GEORGE BEST) 428,611 - (62nd busiest route at LHR)
BELFAST INTERNATIONAL 289,359 (76th busiest route at LHR)

Worth noting that the EDI route was worth more passengers individually than Chicago, Madrid, Singapore, Delhi and Toronto routes (among others), while the GLA route added more passengers individually than Vienna, Athens, Barcelona, Sydney and Tokyo.
 
anstar
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:27 am

There really isn't an increase in slots being made for domestic flights.
They have just been reallocated from BD to both Virgin and BA.
 
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CARST
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:38 am

I added numbers to your quote, so I can answer these (rhetorical) questions:

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 4):
1) Do we need two carriers providing them though at a highly congested airport like LHR ?

2) For example there do not seem to be many domestic flights arriving at FRA this morning that are not operated by LH ?

3) Maybe there is a reason for that. It is probably the same reason that resulted in BD's failure ?

To 1) Yes! 110% yes. Why allow a monopolistic situation anyway?

To 2) Total different situation. If you compare Great Britain versus Germany, taking BA/VS and LH/AB, you will see that AB has no hub at FRA, their hubs are DUS, NUE and TXL, they don't need a huge number of domestic feed into the LH hubs FRA or MUC. But at LHR both BA and VS have their largest hub operation and are both in need of domestic, continental and intercontinental feed.

To 3) I don't think that you could blame the demise of BD on their short-haul-operation. It is true that most large hub-and-spoke airlines in Europe are loosing money on their domestic/continental network these days, that is why you see a lot of restructuring going on (LH with 4U and the Score program, AirFrance with their new LCC subsidiary, etc.), but you have to sell these short-haul flights so cheap to fill your long-haul aircraft.

No feed > empty huge aircraft flying around the world > loosing money > (e.g.) VS getting out of business > BA close to monopoly at Great Britain/LHR > higher prices for the average traveller > EU and its citizens not interested in this situation
 
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 7):
To 1) Yes! 110% yes. Why allow a monopolistic situation anyway?

Monopolistic ?

For people travelling solely between London and Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow etc there are countless daily options on several carriers.

Non UK based carriers offer comprehensive international and intercontinental service from airports north of LHR going both east and west. People in the north are certainly not reliant on getting to LHR for long-haul travel like they once were. They can also connect onto BA's massive operation (via countless daily domestic departures) at LHR through the best terminal at LHR if they so choose.

Considering this is it really a good use of available slots at LHR ?

(Germany is far, far more monopolistic and protectionist in its civil aviation policy than the UK)

Quoting CARST (Reply 8):
Yes! 110% yes. Why allow a monopolistic situation anyway?

You allow a monopolistic situation at FRA do you not ?

What's the difference ?

The market dictated the future of BD at LHR not BA.

Forcing the successful carrier to relinquish invaluable and highly needed slots just so another carrier can maintain an unrequired status quo is my mind very, very warped. At an airport like LHR it is also very unhelpful.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:28 am

When BA had a monopoly on GLA-LHR, fares rose accordingly. Flying to LGW isn't great if your business is in West London or the M4 corridor.
 
B747forever
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:40 am

Quoting damian (Reply 6):
In 2011, domestic routes at LHR were worth the following passenger numbers:

What is your source for those numbers?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
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CARST
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:44 am

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 9):

Considering this is it really a good use of available slots at LHR ?

Again: Both airlines (VS and BA) need the feeder flights from wherever possible.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 9):
You allow a monopolistic situation at FRA do you not ?

What's the difference ?

There is no difference regarding the slots and monopolistic situation. Years ago already LH had to give a significant number of slots to AB at FRA. AB started flights to TXL, HAM and other cities. Because of stiff competition from LH they later reduced frequencies and stopped flying to HAM. But to end the domestic monopolistic situation for FRA AB got the required slots and not just a few, e.g. they had alone 6 frequencies to HAM daily in 2009.

If you want to find a difference, there is one, FRA is a hub for LH, not for AB. LHR is a hub for BA and VS, which both need the feeder flights. But I am repeating what I said above, just read it again please.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 10):
When BA had a monopoly on GLA-LHR, fares rose accordingly. Flying to LGW isn't great if your business is in West London or the M4 corridor.

  

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 9):
The market dictated the future of BD at LHR not BA.

Forcing the successful carrier to relinquish invaluable and highly needed slots just so another carrier can maintain an unrequired status quo is my mind very, very warped. At an airport like LHR it is also very unhelpful.

The market dictated the future for BD, yes. It was between stopping operations or getting taken over by another airline. It was not BA or bust. So when BA thought about taking over BD they knew from the beginning that this would result in some slot re-allocations, otherwise the EU would not have allowed them to take over BD, it would have created a monopolistic situation at LHR. Not directly for the traveller, but for VS who would have the disadvantage compared to BA. That could have resulted in a chain of events, which I have written about in my last post, indirectly creating a monopolistic situation for the traveller, too (at least in the long-run).
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:05 am

That's a very tricky one to answer...

Many airlines would probably argue they don't need domestic feeder flights at LHR to fill their international flights, especially if they serve other UK airports like QR, EK and UA, but other airlines would probably claim they do...

UK airports and airlines like BA and VS would probably also claim they are discriminated against, if they cannot have domestic links to LHR, to provide feeder services. Especially when cities like CDG, AMS and FRA are similar flying distance to LHR as BHD, EDI and ABZ are.

Also you could then argue, why should airlines like LH, AF and KL be aloud to feed flights to their respected hubs from LHR and UK regional airports while BA and VS are not aloud to feed their flights through their LHR hub.

If and when the UK gets this high speed rail link, to the north of England and Scotland, and if it had a stop at Heathrow. It could then be argued flights from Scotland and England could be banned from operating into LHR, especially if airlines had an interlining agreement with the rail operator. I think AF do something similar to this in France with the TGV services.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 4):
Domestic flights certainly are not a waste of slots I agree.

Do we need two carriers providing them though at a highly congested airport like LHR ?

This is however a very good point...

Maybe an independent airline (or state owned) could operate ALL domestic routes, and is not linked to any other carrier operating to/from LHR (by alliance or financially) and is obliged to interline with all carriers that want to offer domestic connections within the UK.

Does anyone know the percentage of passengers on domestic flights connecting through LHR? Just another idea, how about restricting only passengers flying into LHR, who are connecting onto another flight. All other passengers flying to or from London only are obliged to use the likes LCY, LTN, LGW or STN.

[Edited 2013-01-24 03:16:40]
 
LN-KGL
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:08 am

B747forever, damian has found the numbers in the CAA 2011 Survey - http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...81&pagetype=90&pageid=7640.

If you combine these CAA survey numbers with CAA reported passenger numbers for 2011, you end up with these number for the domestic traffic:

Total number of domestic passengers at LHR: 4.7 million (6.8% of LHR total)
Terminating domestic passengers at LHR: 2.2 million (3.2% of LHR total)
Domestic passengers using LHR as a transfer airport (hub): 2.5 million (3.6% of LHR total)

Since 33.6% of the terminal passengers at LHR in 2011 were either transferring or in transit, then it's easy to say 20% of the LHR passengers are foreigners using LHR as an international destination to international destination hub - i.e. 20.8 million passengers.
 
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:16 am

Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
Again: Both airlines (VS and BA) need the feeder flights from wherever possible.

Hang on a minute CARST.

Nobody forced VS to commence international operations at LHR without domestic feed 25 years ago ? They obviously decided they didn't need it ? Otherwise they would have introduced domestic routes at the same time they were selecting LHR's most profitable long-haul routes.

What's changed has got nothing to do with BA. Outside competition has increased greatly over the years resulting in VS's 'stand alone long-haul niche carrier business plan' crumbling into dust.

VS can operate as many domestic routes as they want but it shouldn't be as a result of BA having to relinquish slots. Using BD's failure as a stick to beat BA with is typical and as Willie Walsh said rather pathetic.

There was a caveat that BA provide seats for VS feed anyway. How humiliating is that !

Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
LHR is a hub for BA and VS, which both need the feeder flights. But I am repeating what I said above, just read it again please.

Why should BA have to keep wet nursing VS due to VS's bad management. BA bought BD fair and square after (I might add) it had already shambolicly been through another carriers hands !!

Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
Not directly for the traveller, but for VS who would have the disadvantage compared to BA.

Why should BA be castigated because of failure within VS management ?? Like I said....they chose not to commence domestic operations when they commenced long-haul operations at LHR. That in itself is another example of and rather indicative of VS's naive approach to the nature of the airline industry at LHR.

Quoting CARST (Reply 12):
That could have resulted in a chain of events, which I have written about in my last post, indirectly creating a monopolistic situation for the traveller, too (at least in the long-run).
VS has never operated domestic flights. All of VS's flights from LHR are operated by at least TWO other carriers. Therefore the demise of VS would not lead to a BA monopoly on ANY route.

[Edited 2013-01-24 03:26:25]
 
vv701
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 11):
What is your source for those numbers?

His number for EDI (1,271,459) is exactly that published on the CAA web site. I have not checked the others but look here:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...om_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis_2011.pdf
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 15):
VS has never operated domestic flights. All of VS's flights from LHR are operated by at least TWO other carriers. Therefore the demise of VS would not lead to a BA monopoly on ANY route.

To put a different perspective on the matter which has been touched upon with the above quote,

Without VS entering into the domestic market BA have a monopoly on a number of routes from LHR, obviously they can't charge whatever they want, but this does give them considerable leeway to increase fares. Meanwhile however we have BA and VS competing directly on a number of International routes, most if not all of which there is at least one non UK airline also on the route. In order to provide more slots for new routes it would be better to only have one UK airline on each route, as there would still be competition to help keep prices reasonable.

However, no ones suggestions are going to happen, are they ?
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:32 pm

I don't like to be negative but I would give Virgin 24 odd months before they wind up domestic.
I really can't see the point other than a dig at BA.If BMI could not make it work how will Virgin.
The market is pretty well sown up by the locos and BA have their feed also.

Then again you never know?
 
jumpjets
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:48 pm

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 17):
Without VS entering into the domestic market BA have a monopoly on a number of routes from LHR, obviously they can't charge whatever they want,

I booked flights LHR-EDI in late April the other day. The VS flights were £3 cheaper than BA, and from my perspective not at such good times. I wonder if their in flight service will be better as based on this one example they don't seem to be differentiating themselves too much on fares.
 
anstar
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:48 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 15):
What's changed has got nothing to do with BA.

Actually it does have something to do with BA.... they bought the carrier that was providing domestic feed to VS.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 15):
Like I said....they chose not to commence domestic operations when they commenced long-haul operations at LHR.

Because 25 years ago BD were uch more a domestic/short haul carrier and it made no sense to compete with them AND BA on domestic routes.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 18):
I don't like to be negative but I would give Virgin 24 odd months before they wind up domestic.
I really can't see the point other than a dig at BA.If BMI could not make it work how will Virgin.

Well the contract with Aer Lingus is for 3 years.... and BMI couldnt make it work because they were filling alot of seats carrying other airlines passengers. At least will be connnecting them to their own long haul network - much like what BA does. Virgin know short haul will not make money, but they will also have a very good picture of what the wetlease will cost and what amount of passengers currently connect on BA (or used ot on BD).
 
jfk777
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:27 pm

One of the conditions of BA buying BMI was some domestic slots for competition. Since Virgin got lots of feed from BMI they needed their own feed domestically.
 
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 20):
Actually it does have something to do with BA.... they bought the carrier that was providing domestic feed to VS.

So what ?

I guess VS should have bought BD via a decent offer then.

If a carrier decided to commence operations at FRA would the Bundestag and Brussels force LH to surrender rights and slots ?
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:52 pm

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 17):
In order to provide more slots for new routes it would be better to only have one UK airline on each route, as there would still be competition to help keep prices reasonable.

Oh that it were so simple.
A significant % of BA long haul routes operate to points where the foreign carrier is an alliance partner or even worse from a competition perspective Joint Venture Partner.

In the market place VS remain an effective competitor on those selected routes (All high yield and heavy O & D demand) out of LHR.

The incorporation of bmi domestic feed into BA operations has also had a negative effect on VS regional feed.

Whilst it is true BA are required to offer interline domestic feed (At commercial rates i might add), the remedy slots were part of the take over agreement.
Therefore it would blatantly obvious VS should consider replacing the bmi feed with their own brand.

For the Virgin Group (As opposed to the airline) there would also be the opportunity to replace some of the about to be lost rail franchise capacity.

Of course because of the bent franchising rail process they have since retained the WCML rail franchise with an extension for a further two years.
They now have the prospect of securing an opportunity to re-tender with differing rules.

As to the opening question as part of an effective Hub and Spoke operation be that single airline/alliance or traditional interline operations domestic feed is an essential element of the structural arrangement.

Caveat the point where domestic air travel and feed becomes effective is where ground travel times are 3 hours and beyond.

Manchester is at that tipping point (For road travel, however not rail ), added to which that city and region creates size-able corporate traffic and there remains market for some O & D as well.

Leeds may yet be slot sitting however we shall see. Clearly the Banking sectors (Halifax) may have some potential.

As for Newcastle for BA that's clearly feed in the main these days.

The current Nationalised ECML rail serve is fast and very cheap compared to the WCML and Newcastle -London just just over that tipping time of 3 hours (By 10 minutes or so ) via rail. Its a long drive by road and certainly needs an overnight each end !

All journeys between London and Scotland by ground are way over the tipping point and air is the ONLY way to achieve a return within the same day.
There remains real O & D and transfer opportunities to these parts that only air can ever offer.
Thats why BA fly to these parts from LHR/LGW and LCY multiple times a day. And the existence of EZY and Cityjet in the market place.

Scotland- London very much meets the criteria of an essential aIr route and will remain so for a VERY LONG TIME.

Ironically in the context of domestic services operating expressly as feeder -Too much connecting traffic may make for an un-economic operation !

It was said bmi had bums on seats between GLA-LHR and at times more than they could handle however could never make money since they all went onto other *A without sufficient payment for the domestic sector.

If VS are smart with there accounting they may actually loose less money on the domestic routes by NOT offering to feed alliances other than at commercial rates themselves.
Yes that means fares from the regions with a VS connection will need to increase.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:58 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 22):
If a carrier decided to commence operations at FRA would the Bundestag and Brussels force LH to surrender rights and slots ?

Depending on the terms possibly !

In fact Lufthansa HAVE offered slots recently in anti trust claims

Read here:

http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...rankfurt-nyc-slots-for-competitors

and here

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...nental-antitrust-approval-bid.html
 
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:26 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 24):
Depending on the terms possibly !

Those reports you link referencing anti-trust are not quite the same thing as LH is making the first move.

So are you saying LH would be required to surrender slots/rights if a new carrier decided to commence ops at FRA ?

Seeing as VS had the same opportunity to purchase BD as BA I cannot understand why BA as the successful bidder has to surrender slots ?

Would VS have surrendered slots to BA if they had purchased BD ?
 
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CARST
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 22):
If a carrier decided to commence operations at FRA would the Bundestag and Brussels force LH to surrender rights and slots ?

Basically that is what happened with AB and LH, AB went to the court to get slots at FRA and route authority between TXL/HAM/NUE and FRA. To break the LH monopoly they got what they wanted.

That is how the business works, at least in our Western countries with fair anti-trust-laws. If one company can show at court that a competitor has a monopolistic advantage the suing company will win in most cases.

Quoting anstar (Reply 20):
Actually it does have something to do with BA.... they bought the carrier that was providing domestic feed to VS.

  

That is the most important point. You can't just buy a competitor and expect the authorities to look the other way. BA would have taken over all non-LCC domestic flying. By re-allocating some slots to VS the authorities avoided BA gaining a monopoly on the domestic routes.

The focus and decision of the EU anti-trust-agency when agreeing on the BA-BD-deal under certain terms was not on BA and VS, but on BA and BD. It did not say: BA, you have to give up slots to VS, your competitor. It said, you have to give up slots at LHR for domestic flying to avoid creating the mentioned monopoly. VS applied for the slots and got them.

Not directly linked to the ruling this has the advantage of VS now getting feed for their long-haul flying. The market has changed in 25 years and VS is doing more these days than flying tourists to the sunny places of the world. But don't focus on this point. Don't read something into the ruling like this: BA can buy BD only for VS to profit from the deal by gaining slots at LHR. It is like this: BA is allowed to take over a direct competitor (BD) if they give away some of BDs slots at LHR to avoid a domestic monopoly, otherwise the take-off would not have been gone through.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 25):
Seeing as VS had the same opportunity to purchase BD as BA I cannot understand why BA as the successful bidder has to surrender slots ?

Would VS have surrendered slots to BA if they had purchased BD ?

That was the deal to ensure the take over met the requirement of the competition regulators in the UK/US AND EU.

So yes they are of the same magnitude.

By the way its NOT a FREE market , but a regulated competitive marketplace.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 27):
Would VS have surrendered slots to BA if they had purchased BD ?

Likely NOT as the competitive market conditions would have remained unaltered.


As others have pointed out you cannot compare the UK and German markets with any ease.

They operate in a completely differing environment.

German States have FAR greater power and identity than the UK regions have over local economies (Manufacturing still alive, Commerce and Tourism all across the nation) meaning multiple aviation Hubs have developed (Closer to the US model !)

What you said about re Frankfurt is as a nonsense as a new UK operator demanding access and slots at Heathrow.
Neither has happened !

That said Air Berlin has a real opportunity to selectively compete against LH albeit from differing hubs (their own choice)
Historically remember this is a Leisure Carrier and much of the change is driven to take advantage of the upgraded facilities in Berlin and strengthened business routes from Dusseldorf.
They can do this based on the strong German State economies.

This is what the UK should be emulating not a stupid in/out EU debate. (Sorry political and ignore if you want)

[Edited 2013-01-24 09:02:48]
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:29 pm

Reminds me off Pan Am buying National a bit...Never had a domestic airline to feed its long haul .
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 29):

Reminds me off Pan Am buying National a bit...Never had a domestic airline to feed its long haul .

They did all right in a differing market place. US domestic deregulation did for them as they lost those cozy interline arrangements with Delta/North West and Eastern.
 
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 26):
That is the most important point. You can't just buy a competitor and expect the authorities to look the other way. BA would have taken over all non-LCC domestic flying. By re-allocating some slots to VS the authorities avoided BA gaining a monopoly on the domestic routes.

They 'just' bought it after it went BUST ! It's not like it was a hostile take-over in order to gain an advantage.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 28):
What you said about re Frankfurt is as a nonsense as a new UK operator demanding access and slots at Heathrow

The fact that it is nonsense is the point I was making. Where do you think VS got its traffic rights to NRT from ?

Quoting CARST (Reply 26):
BA, you have to give up slots to VS, your competitor. It said, you have to give up slots at LHR for domestic flying to avoid creating the mentioned monopoly. VS applied for the slots and got them.

Who else was going to apply for the slots? (given the routes they have to be used for)

Quoting CARST (Reply 26):
BA is allowed to take over a direct competitor (BD) if they give away some of BDs slots at LHR to avoid a domestic monopoly

But BD had gone BUST. If BA hadn't bought BD they would have been the sole domestic operator anyway !?! The slots would have been sold to the highest bidders. (which wouldn't have been VS for sure)

What happens when VS pulls out of domestic in a year or two ?

Maybe BA should subsidize VS's domestic operation in order to avoid a monopoly ?

[Edited 2013-01-24 08:56:23]
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 30):

National knew how to run its operation, when Pan Am took over it didn't have a clue about running it.

Virgin really needs to join an alliance, as has been said a million times on here.
This whole domestic thing is really just going to cost them a fortune, and is going to end up messy.
Could they not have done some sort of agreement with EZY or FLYBE rather than starting up their own short haul?
As I said before I think this market is already saturated and really does not need another carrier!

I think Virgins biggest problem right now is finding itself an alliance partner, ie sky team ASAP,
I wonder if DL has any input on funding this short haul venture?
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 31):
Where do you think VS got its traffic rights to NRT from

The negotiated governmental bi-lateral agreement (theres that regulated competitive environment again) allows for 2 carriers to operate between designated cities from each country.

So we have ANA, JAL, BA, and VS

Under the Bi-Laterals the frequencies are also controlled.

At this time none of the parties use their quota.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 32):
National knew how to run its operation, when Pan Am took over it didn't have a clue about running it.

Agreed

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 32):
Virgin really needs to join an alliance

Maybe ! Delta must have plans - My concerns are more the future of Virgin Holidays/Leisure ops rather than the franchised domestic operations.

I can see Virgin Holidays sold off leaving those aged 744s at LGW and MAN little to do !
 
1400mph
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 33):
The negotiated governmental bi-lateral agreement (theres that regulated competitive environment again) allows for 2 carriers to operate between designated cities from each country.

So we have ANA, JAL, BA, and VS

Under the Bi-Laterals the frequencies are also controlled.

At this time none of the parties use their quota.

....Lord King was further angered by the subsequent decision of the CAA to transfer two pairs of unused landing slots that British Airways held at Tokyo's Narita Airport to Virgin to let it increase its frequency between Heathrow and Tokyo from four to six weekly round trips, making it easier for Virgin to compete against British Airways. King called the CAA's decision, which the Government had endorsed, "a confiscation of his company's property"..........
 
vv701
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:29 pm

I wonder if VS will be able to sustain its flights from both ABZ and EDI to LHR.

From ABZ it has the distinct disadvantage of only offering three return flights a day against BA's eight. With its own long-haul departures and arrivals at LHR spread across the day it will not be able to offer thesame level of conectivity that BA can.

The situation with EDI is better. But VS will still only have sixdaily flights to and from EDI against BA's twelve.

Fares do not seem to be super-competitive. I selected at random EDI-LHR on 15 April returning LHR-EDI on 22 April. The fares were £158.30 on VS and £152 on BA or, for a fully flexible ticket, £572.30 on VS and £578 on BA. However for some reason the VS web site said no seats were available on any of the flights to and from EDI on these dates although all ABZ flights were bookable.
 
goosebayguy
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:31 pm

If you're looking for Heathrow to be better utilised then how about a minimum limit on aircraft size? Say minimum 150 seats or even 200 seats. Even a minimum load factor? Say 80% full before being allowed to land or take off. I remember LHR having some great business jets around the Hunting hangar but they were all pushed out for larger aircraft so perhaps now we need to increase the size of aircraft using LHR?
 
1400mph
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 27):
That was the deal to ensure the take over met the requirement of the competition regulators in the UK/US AND EU.

The only requirement the EU 'should' insist upon is that the BA domestic operation at LHR is no more uncompetitive than other European carriers domestic operations at the likes of AMS, FRA, CDG, MAD etc

Which of course it would not have been.

Otherwise what are they basing their judgment on ?

Unless of course Brussels make decsions based on ideals rather than what is actually reality across the continent.

(would explain alot actually)



[Edited 2013-01-24 09:34:14]

[Edited 2013-01-24 10:26:22]
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:36 pm

[quote=rutankrd,reply=33][
Good points..
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 34):
Lord King was further angered by the subsequent decision of the CAA to transfer two pairs of unused landing slots that British Airways held at Tokyo's Narita Airport to Virgin to let it increase its frequency between Heathrow and Tokyo from four to six weekly round trips, making it easier for Virgin to compete against British Airways. King called the CAA's decision, which the Government had endorsed, "a confiscation of his company's property

Thats why the market IS regulated to prevent market dominance in the interests of the consumer and smaller competitors !

BA just dumped their loss making Japanese regional services to compensate !
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 37):
The only requirement the EU 'should' insist upon is that the BA domestic operation at LHR is no more uncompetitive than other European carriers domestic operations at the likes of AMS, FRA, CDG, MAD etc

Which of course it would not have been.

Otherwise what are they basing their judgment on ?

Unless of course Brussels make decsions based on ideals rather than what is actually reality across the continent.

You make a wrongful assumption that it was Brussels. Both domestic and US ! competition authorities were involved in the BA/bmi exchange and setting the conditions for completion.

Many mergers involve similar conditions to ensure the markets remains competitive.

Bank mergers see branches (And accounts !) sold off the competitors, large scale retail take over see stores sold on to competitors need to go on.

Fact is no remedy slots no completion sorry but thats how it is.
 
B747forever
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting LN-KGL (Reply 14):
B747forever, damian has found the numbers in the CAA 2011 Survey - http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?ca...7640.

Thanks for the link.

Always good to back up statistics with a source.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
1400mph
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 39):
Thats why the market IS regulated to prevent market dominance in the interests of the consumer and smaller competitors !

That's all very well and good but the market dominance of BA domestic at LHR due to the failure of its competitor is not the concern of BA.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 40):
Fact is no remedy slots no completion sorry but thats how it is.

And if BA had not been in a position to purchase BD ?

BA would have been the sole operator of domestic ops at LHR.

What do you do then to prevent a monopoly ? Prevent BA from operating domestic service at LHR and therefore scrap all domestic service at LHR ?

Of course not and we'd all be very happy for BA to provide domestic service then even if they did have (god forbid) a monopoly !

Just aswell BA 'were' able to come to the rescue (again) and save the day.........

VS managed to squeeze a few more freebies out of the system into the bargain !

 
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 31):
BD had gone BUST

Repeated twice and both times not true .

The Group had registered huge losses for sure and DLH had had enough but they NEVER went bust !

Had they gone into administration BA may have got an even better deal !
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 43):

If BA hadn't got BMI, seemingly they were 1 week away from bankruptcy..I think Walsh quoted that somewhere,
 
1400mph
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 43):
Repeated twice and both times not true .

The Group had registered huge losses for sure and DLH had had enough but they NEVER went bust !

Had they gone into administration BA may have got an even better deal !

If BA hadn't stepped in and purchased BD LH would have liquidated BD and that's a fact. They were hemorrhaging too much cash. BD (unfortunately) was dead in the water.

A better deal ? Slots or no slots BA took on an airline that was losing £200M a year.

LH probably would have paid BA in the end just to take it off their hands and stem the flow of cash !!!

Better deal indeed.
 
vectismanpaul
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:05 pm

How many times does one have to repeat that long and mid haul services from LHR need feed from Short haul Europe and Domestic!!! If a service is profitable or allows long haul to be so how can the use of such a slot be a waste? An airline has a given number of slots which are they decide how to use. Whats the big deal!!

V.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 42):
That's all very well and good but the market dominance of BA domestic at LHR due to the failure of its competitor is not the concern of BA Who said it was !

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 40):
Fact is no remedy slots no completion sorry but thats how it is.

And if BA had not been in a position to purchase BD ?

DLH would have looked at other alternatives and probably had various options- Closure of bmiBaby and sale of bmiR were almost certainly pre-planned.
DLH has gained and retained a significant number of bmi slots. Further slot sales may well have taken place - Yes even to BA

BA would have been the sole operator of domestic ops at LHR.

They are right now !

What do you do then to prevent a monopoly ? Prevent BA from operating domestic service at LHR and therefore scrap all domestic service at LHR ?

Of course not and we'd all be very happy for BA to provide domestic service then even if they did have (god forbid) a monopoly !

Stupid - You create a framework that allows competition - Part of that was to insist BA offer domestic interline terms to VS AND provide those few remedy slots (That worry you so much)

Just as well BA 'were' able to come to the rescue (again) and save the day.........

Your knight in shining Euro white blue and red - They sure did it for altruistic reasons NOT !

VS managed to squeeze a few more freebies out of the system into the bargain !

The remedy slots are not free !
 
1400mph
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 46):
How many times does one have to repeat that long and mid haul services from LHR need feed from Short haul Europe and Domestic!!! If a service is profitable or allows long haul to be so how can the use of such a slot be a waste? An airline has a given number of slots which are they decide how to use. Whats the big deal!!

No one is arguing your point ?

I'm saying the extra flights VS will provide on London domestic are not needed in addition to BA at LHR and the LCC's at other London airports.

Therefore they are a total waste of slots at congested Heathrow. They may provide feed for VS but they will run at a loss and they will not be enough to make VS run at a profit. There are other more practical things VS could do to achieve that rather than embark upon another vanity project such as this.
 
1400mph
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RE: Are New LHR Domestic Flights Waste Of Slots?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 47):
The remedy slots are not free !

Oh come on. They're a damn site cheaper than if BA had not purchased BD and the slots had gone into a 'highest bidder' scenario.

Everyone knows VS likes to get everything on the cheap !