panamair
Topic Author
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UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:58 pm

UAL reported a Q4 2012 net loss today of $190m excluding special charges; GAAP Net Loss of $620m including special charges...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united...full-fourth-quarter-123000541.html

Full year profit of $589m excluding specials, full year GAAP Net Loss of $720m including special charges.

Q4 2012:

Total revenues: $8.702 billion (down 2.5%)
Operating Loss: $465m ( -5.3% margin)
Operating Loss without specials: $26m ( -0.3% margin)
Net Loss: $620m ( -7.1% margin)
Net Loss excluding specials: $190m ( -2.2% margin)
 
yellowtail
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:01 pm

While it is probably to be expected as the merger integration continues, I would have thought that we would start to see more of the benefits of the merger already
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:39 pm

This is a continuation of the merger hangover. SuperStorm Sandy didn't help either. I think Jeff is running out of excuses for UA's under performance. They now have contracts in place with their work force which removes the last excuse he has to get the network optimized and performing in line with its competitors.
 
masseybrown
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:00 pm

What's so special about special items, when they recur quarter after quarter after quarter? Let's just call them "expenses", which is what they are. The concept of "operating profit" has become almost meaningless when it is so regularly dwarfed by the size of the specials.

(Pardon the accounting rant. IMO, the current treatment of special items and intangibles serves only to obscure the real financial condition of companies.)

That said, wasn't the retro pay to the pilots the real cause of the operating loss?
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:05 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
What's so special about special items, when they recur quarter after quarter after quarter? Let's just call them "expenses", which is what they are

Taking a look at the financials the special charges at least are virtually all merger and one time labor related charges. That's why they are considered special. There are a couple small charges related to the annual adjustments that UA makes to the value of slots/landing rights that it holds and a small gain due to the sale of some parked aircraft.

$175 million for severance packages (FAs and Mechanics)
$475 million related to the Pilots contract
$357 million are PBGC charges
$400 million (approximate) Includes compensation costs related to systems integration and training, costs to repaint aircraft and other branding activities, costs to write-off or accelerate depreciation on systems and facilities that are no longer used or planned to be used for significantly shorter periods, relocation costs for employees and severance primarily associated with administrative headcount reductions.
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Flighty
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:16 pm

UA has had its time to work this. 2013 it better start performing a lot like Delta. 2014, either they do or it is a strategy and leadership problem.
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
That said, wasn't the retro pay to the pilots the real cause of the operating loss?

No...that is not counted in the operating loss. Sandy reduced fourth-quarter revenue by approximately $140 million and profit by approximately $85 million. The rest of the loss for the fourth quarter is simply due to UAs typical business cycle...UA generally looses money the 4th and 1st quarters of most years and makes it up the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

Q1 revenue 8.6B cost 8.9B
Q2 revenue 9.9B cost 9.3B
Q3 revenue 9.9B cost 9.7B
Q4 revenue 8.7B cost 9.2B
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masseybrown
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:31 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 4):
Taking a look at the financials the special charges at least are virtually all merger and one time labor related charges.

Ok, I'll listen to the webcast before complaining more. Merger-related charges used to be estimated and expensed or reserved for at the time of the merger. These days the charges are strung out over years often serving to mask what could more fairly be called management miscalculations or outright mistakes. (Not accusing UA in particular, everybody's guilty.)
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
I think Jeff is running out of excuses for UA's under performance.



I'd like to agree with you however; with the B788 issues he has an entirely new suitcase from which to select more lame reasons for his and his management selections poor showing.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
UA has had its time to work this. 2013 it better start performing a lot like Delta. 2014, either they do or it is a strategy and leadership problem.



IMHO, it is pretty obvious that is already the case and has been since day 1.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
jayunited
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
UA has had its time to work this. 2013 it better start performing a lot like Delta. 2014, either they do or it is a strategy and leadership problem.

Why the comparison Delta's merger legally closed in 2008 United's merger legally closed OCt 1, 2012. So it is to be elected that Delta would perform better than United in 2012. But in 2010 Delta was still recording merger related cost.

I'll admit United made mistakes in 2012 the most notable was the PSS cutover and all the changes to MileagePlus that cost the company money. Then there were the 3 or 4 computer crashed during the spring and summer months which cost UA money. The company has completed the repaint of the narrow body mainline fleet, and has installed lie flat seating on more than 35 wide body aircraft this year another merger related cost. Then you had them settle contracts with sCO and sUA flight attendants, sCO and sUA mechanics and all pilots. All these groups received a signing bonus totally more than $600 million dollars. Then lastly you had Super Storm Sandy which closed IAD and EWR for a day and CLE was closed for half a day do to extremely high winds. Having 3 of your domestic hubs closed cost a lot of money as well.

Now while United made mistakes last year which cost the company money last year was only the second year of the merger and although it might seem like we have been in this merger a bit longer because of all the mistakes made we haven't. So the merger related cost are justified and right in line with what Delta had to deal with in 2010 when they were 2 years into their merger.

If these merger problems and cost continue to exist in 2013 then I would agree with your statement but right now I don't. Delta is 4 years into their merger the are expected to be at the top of their game by people in the airline industry and by the folks on Wall Street, 2013 is when the expectations will change for United and I hope we measure up.
 
panamair
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
The rest of the loss for the fourth quarter is simply due to UAs typical business cycle...UA generally looses money the 4th and 1st quarters of most years and makes it up the 2nd and 3rd quarters

But that applies to most carriers in the world...but US and DL are able to be profitable in Q4, which is a traditionally weak quarter. The combined network of UA/CO should actually help the new UA weather seasonal swings better than before.....

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
United's merger legally closed OCt 1, 2012

The UA-CO merger closed Oct 1 2010.
 
apodino
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:39 pm

In another thread someone pointed out the profit margins of the Major's international routes, and UA has a very profitable international network according to that. The fact that they are still losing money tells me that something on the domestic front isn't right, and it may need to be addressed. I hope its not just a bunch of fluke things, but if they get domestic figured out, they will be great going forward.
 
panamair
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
So the merger related cost are justified and right in line with what Delta had to deal with in 2010 when they were 2 years into their merger.

DL-NW officially closed end of October 2008, while UA-CO closed Oct 1 2010. So there's about a two year timing difference between the two. So if one were to compare the two, one should look at DL-NW's performance for the full year 2010 versus UA-CO's performance for full year 2012.

For 2010, DL-NW made a Net Profit of $1.4 billion excluding special items or a $593m GAAP Profit, though Delta's operational performance was not good in 2010
Now for 2012, UA-CO made a Net Profit of $589m excluding special items or a $720m GAAP Loss. Similarly, UA's operational performance was not good in 2012...

So if you compare these two, UA is still generating less than half the net profit excluding specials and merger-related charges than DL was at the same point in time after the merger closed....
 
tommy767
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 12):
So if you compare these two, UA is still generating less than half the net profit excluding specials and merger-related charges than DL was at the same point in time after the merger closed....

I think the reason for this is the hodgepodge of CO policies and systems being implemented into United -- computer glitches, elite upgrade issues, several hubs that notoriously delayed. If you go on flyertalk and read about some of the issues, UA basically lost a major government contract on the IAD-CDG route because of elites getting ticked off about upgrades and 757 diversions. When PRASM is down, that when you know it's all smoke and mirrors at UA.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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STT757
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
major government contract on the IAD-CDG route because of elites getting ticked off about upgrades

Government employees don't get upgrades.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 12):
So if one were to compare the two, one should look at DL-NW's performance for the full year 2010 versus UA-CO's performance for full year 2012.

...apples to oranges though as the general economy in 2010 was not the same as 2012. It's impossible to compare financials that way.

Quoting apodino (Reply 11):
In another thread someone pointed out the profit margins of the Major's international routes, and UA has a very profitable international network according to that.

Keep in mind that the data posted in that thread is not necessarily consistent between airlines. UA may divide revenue between international and domestic flights very differently then AA or DL do. There isn't a standard metric that the airlines are required to use...

Quoting panamair (Reply 10):
But that applies to most carriers in the world...but US and DL are able to be profitable in Q4, which is a traditionally weak quarter.

Yes but they may back-load or front-load costs and revenue differently then UA does...just because accounting is standard doesn't mean that its all done the same way....they also didn't do the bulk of their integration costs in 2012.  
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
delta2ual
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:23 pm

I really hope things turn around in 2013; I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.
I think once the full integration is complete, things can only go up; they truly have the best hubs in the industry, IMHO. When I was at DL (before I went to UA) I had hoped so bad that DL and UA would merge. That would have been a powerhouse (and I think CO/NW would have been a good fit too). Alas, things turned out differently.
One thing that airlines never run out of (all airlines, not just UA) is excuses: terrorism, SARS, hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic ash, strikes/slowdowns, ATC, etc. etc. I know they can't control many of these things, but it just seems like it's always something.
Here's to a new year and better things for UAL!
From the world's largest airline-to the world's largest airline. Delta2ual
 
tommy767
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Government employees don't get upgrades.

I'm not sure about that.

Either way, because of CO policy, they lost the route to AF.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 17):
Either way, because of CO policy, they lost the route to AF.

...not possible. Foreign carries can't apply for US government traffic. Now its possible that in the latest round of bidding DL (via a code share with AF) got the contract for this route. Keep in mind that government contracts, while they can be lucrative, are usually viewed as filler traffic by the airlines. UA may have not even bid on that route this year....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
Government employees don't get upgrades



It all depends on the flight time. IIRC, a flight 8 hours plus they used to get first class tickets, but regardless they certainly can use their own FF status/miles to get upgrades.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 17):
Either way, because of CO policy, they lost the route to AF



Here we go again! What policy would that be which created CO to lose the CDG route? AF had the IAH-CDG route for many years not just since UA quit flying it.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
tommy767
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 19):
Here we go again! What policy would that be which created CO to lose the CDG route? AF had the IAH-CDG route for many years not just since UA quit flying it.


"Descend at Co-Pilots Discretion"

Oh gee I don't know -- the usual pissing off DC flyers by flying a 757 beyond it's intended distance and having diversions.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
the usual pissing off DC flyers by flying a 757 beyond it's intended distance and having diversions.

...it's a 2 class 763 and has been for a while..looks to be the same equipment on the route for the summer as well. They did fly a 752 on the route for a while why they worked on the 2 class 763 conversion.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 20):
Oh gee I don't know -- the usual pissing off DC flyers by flying a 757 beyond it's intended distance and having diversions.

How many diversions since the route switched from sUA 763s to sCO 752s?

Granted, the 767-300 is a great airplane with better range, but why was the route switched? I seem to recall it was part of the cycle to move 763s around to other (read: more profitable) routes AND to refurbish the often ratty 763s. Isn't that project about done?
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
tommy767
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 21):

They switched it back from last winter (for obvious reasons.)
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
yellowtail
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.

The few that I know there too also feel the same....
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
apodino
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:14 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.

The few that I know there too also feel the same....

The question is...how long before the shareholders feel the same?
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
I have many friends at Willis and just from talking to them, I get the feeling they are starting to get a little frustrated with Mr. Smisek.
Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):
The few that I know there too also feel the same....

This morning announced a 6% management headcount reduction, which is about 700 heads per the earnings call if memory serves. There has been a voluntary program out there, but it appears that it has been ineffective and they're officially resorting to a "reduction in force". Pink slips due in February.
 
COflyerBOS
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:31 pm

Could job, Smisek.

Maybe UA should cut back IAH flying even more. That strategy seems to be working so well for you up in Chicago.
 
tommy767
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 27):
Maybe UA should cut back IAH flying even more. That strategy seems to be working so well for you up in Chicago.

IAH travelers really don't have any right to complain. You guys are seeing many equipment upgrades as a result of the merger.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 28):
IAH travelers really don't have any right to complain. You guys are seeing many equipment upgrades as a result of the merger.


Really, I certainly don't call an A319 an upgrade over a B738/9 with TV's, nor a B763 on the LHR route over a B772.

Quoting COflyerBOS (Reply 27):
Maybe UA should cut back IAH flying even more. That strategy seems to be working so well for you up in Chicago


It certainly does, wonder what cuts will be next in line as Flibs contiues to attempt to show the Mayor just how the big boys play!   
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Flighty
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
If these merger problems and cost continue to exist in 2013 then I would agree with your statement but right now I don't. Delta is 4 years into their merger the are expected to be at the top of their game by people in the airline industry and by the folks on Wall Street, 2013 is when the expectations will change for United and I hope we measure up.

Sure. These comments regarding 2012 are understandable. But now it is 2013. Those days are over. United needs to be done merging now. It needs to run like a business now. Or, I am left to suspect that the business plan either wasn't there, or their structural costs are too high, -OR- there are problems in the fleet planning and market planning departments. Such as, retaining a ton of cash negative flying, due to some pride or brand equity mumbo jumbo. Executives who learned that stuff at Harvard have a terrible record in the airline business. But hey, glass half full. United should do great in 2013.
 
tommy767
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 29):
Really, I certainly don't call an A319 an upgrade over a B738/9 with TV's, nor a B763 on the LHR route over a B772.

The 319s have comfortable seats that won't make you go running to a chiropractor after deplaning from a 738 or 739.

And yes, the 319s have video (Free video, unlike the 737s.)
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 31):
The 319s have comfortable seats that won't make you go running to a chiropractor after deplaning from a 738 or 739.

And yes, the 319s have video


I've never had to see a chiropractor after numerous flights on the Boeing jets, but I will agree the buses have nice seats. The video system is at best sad as are most that come out of the overhead bins and the selection of movies/shows is not much better. Simply not an upgrade in equipment to me.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Executives who learned that stuff at Harvard have a terrible record in the airline business.


Another good reason for someone to move along and go back being a lawyer or anything not related to the airline industry.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
They switched it back from last winter (for obvious reasons.)

So how many diversions were there (when the sCO 752 was on the IAD-CDG route)? I'd genuinely like to know.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 13):
If you go on flyertalk and read about some of the issues, UA basically lost a major government contract on the IAD-CDG route because of elites getting ticked off about upgrades and 757 diversions.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
tpaewr
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:13 pm

DL also has a much more labor flex being almost totally non-union. Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO. It makes everything vastly more complex and cost more.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:17 pm

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 34):
Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO



IIRC the seniority list for the pilots is supposed to be merged in the May/June time which should help. Last I heard I believe the pilots had completed five out of the six ops training items, but I could be wrong.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
United1
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:17 pm

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 34):
Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO. It makes everything vastly more complex and cost more.

...there are some hints of forward movement in that area. They may have something to announce this quarter regarding a couple of the unions.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
Rdh3e
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 33):
So how many diversions were there (when the sCO 752 was on the IAD-CDG route)? I'd genuinely like to know.

Not knowing all the reasons, could include mechanicals etc, but 31 westbound diversions, and 1 eastbound diversion.
 
strfyr51
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 24):

I work at Willis and the frustration isn't about Smisek. It's the fact that we've been moving so damned slow with the integration and Nobody on the CAL side seems to know where we're going or how we're going to get there. Since they seem to be running the show then they should have some idea WHEN the Maintenance information system will be working and WHEN we'll get on the Ball getting us all on it. they've been programming since 2011 and we could have been on a brand NEW system by now..
 
coairman
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 31):

I agree. The CO 737's have had uncomfortable seats for years. Poor back and seat cushion support. The airbus aircraft have much more comfortable seats and wider aisles and overall more roomier than the CO 737's. The satellite TV on the 737's doesn't mean much if your seat is uncomfortable.
The views I express are of my own, and not the company I work for.
 
tommy767
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:45 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 32):
The video system is at best sad as are most that come out of the overhead bins and the selection of movies/shows is not much better. Simply not an upgrade in equipment to me.

I think of all the other US carriers: AA, DL, and US. DL has many aircraft that only have wi fi, AA only has aircraft that are overhead IFE ready, and US has, well, nothing.

So despite the 320s having overhead LCDs, that's pretty much in line with the competition. The DTV system, as said costs a lot for most trips (not worth it) and the coverage area is weak.

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 33):
So how many diversions were there (when the sCO 752 was on the IAD-CDG route)? I'd genuinely like to know.

Last year it was ridiculous on the IAD routes: AMS and CDG would divert multiple times per week. But as said, this year has been better since the 763 was brought back to both routes.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
and Nobody on the CAL side seems to know where we're going or how we're going to get there.

Seems to be much of the problem at UA these days -- lack of vision. Although both the sUA and sCO MX departments seem to be doing an excellent job of keeping a/c up to speed.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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CALTECH
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RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:06 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 2):
They now have contracts in place with their work force which removes the last excuse he has to get the network optimized and performing in line with its competitors.

Not with TechOps. We are still pretty much 2 distinct seperate groups. We don't even have uniforms yet, though they have been ordered and are on the way. In MCO, we just moved all the flights to the 40s gates from the 30s. Not enough gates over there. Terminal MX is still over at the 30s gates. There's a lot to do yet.

Quoting United1 (Reply 6):
UA generally looses money the 4th and 1st quarters of most years and makes it up the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

Let's see how 4th quarter results are when the merger is really complete.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
IMHO, it is pretty obvious that is already the case and has been since day 1.

Would say that not until 2014 at the earliest. We'll get there. Frustrating for us too, some things can not get done and put away until the workgroups are one. Taking a lot of time, but that's how some mergers are. Waiting to amend contracts has been a big deal.

Quoting jayunited (Reply 9):
Why the comparison Delta's merger legally closed in 2008,.....in 2010 Delta was still recording merger related cost.
Quoting delta2ual (Reply 16):
Here's to a new year and better things for UAL!

There should be a contract up for vote by Jun 2013 for the TechOps Division. Things are slowly coming together.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 19):
Here we go again! What policy would that be which created CO to lose the CDG route? AF had the IAH-CDG route for many years not just since UA quit flying it.

I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.

Quoting United1 (Reply 21):
...it's a 2 class 763 and has been for a while..looks to be the same equipment on the route for the summer as well.

Good rebuttal.

Quoting tpaewr (Reply 34):
DL also has a much more labor flex being almost totally non-union. Other than pilots new contract everything at "United" is still very much two airlines sUA and sCO. It makes everything vastly more complex and cost more.

We are still 2 seperate entities in TechOps, and the pilots are too. The pilots will go through their integration now. Just because a contract is signed doesn't mean everything is integrated immediately, this will take more time.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 35):
IIRC the seniority list for the pilots is supposed to be merged in the May/June time which should help. Last I heard I believe the pilots had completed five out of the six ops training items, but I could be wrong.

Until everyone settles down, it may go beyond May/June.

Quoting United1 (Reply 36):
...there are some hints of forward movement in that area. They may have something to announce this quarter regarding a couple of the unions.

A TechOps contract is hoped to be settled on in March, with a vote for May/June timeframe. After that, the two different TechOps computer systems are to be merged finally. They are and have been working on this computer integration, supposedly keeping the best of each one. Wouldn't touch that, best left to the IT staff.

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 38):
I work at Willis and the frustration isn't about Smisek. It's the fact that we've been moving so damned slow with the integration and Nobody on the CAL side seems to know where we're going or how we're going to get there. Since they seem to be running the show then they should have some idea WHEN the Maintenance information system will be working and WHEN we'll get on the Ball getting us all on it. they've been programming since 2011 and we could have been on a brand NEW system by now..

Why buy a new system with it's costs and need for training all TechOps employees, when you have two good systems already ? Like they say, they are trying to keep the best of Sceptre and Unimatic. Heard it will be based on Sceptre. Annoying having to look things up in two different systems. Can not wait till it's done.

We'll get there. How much longer is the question. We haven't even agreed on seniority integration yet in TechOps, lots of back and forth, though there are ideas out there, and lately, a peek at what will be. We'll get there. We are slowly becoming United.
UNITED We Stand
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:07 pm

The reason the results are poor and the reason for industry lagging PRASM growth is that UA has just lost too many elites since the MileagePlus program changes for 2012 were announced. Every elite level took it in the shorts. 1ks and GS took it in the shorts the least, but even they experienced a degradation of upgrade rates and of course the operational issues UA has had. For Plats Golds, and Silvers, the devaluations have been far worse with RDM bonuses being slashed, upgrade rates dropping in many cases, and operational failures along the way.

If UA wanted to grow PRASM fast right now, it's not difficult. Reinstate the UA MP program pre-merger, foster a culture of customer service excellence, provide agents a system that allows them to take care of the customer and do a 1k match for all AA EXP and DL DMs. You'd be shocked how much UA could grow PRASM in no time flat.

The fundamental issue is that CO management has created a culture where corporate efficiency trumps the customer experience. If you've recently checked in for a complicated intl itinerary with UA, you'll understand what I just said...UA has the worst check-in process of any airline I know for intl travel. Don't believe me? Give it a try and see for yourself.

The only way I would go back to being Plat or 1k on UA would be if I had a reasonable expectation of being taken care of when I need assistance and if the MP program came back to provide the benefits they used to not all that long ago.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:17 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41):
I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.

So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore and the one person who's job is to sustain profitability at United and cannot is from Continental.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
aaexecplat
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:49 pm

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41):
I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.

CO was once great. I was a Plat on CO starting under Gordo. And continued to be a Plat under Larry and then Jeff and now Plat on UA. The reality is that the slide of CO started under Larry (some would say late in Gordo's tenure). By the time Jeff came to run CO, the company was in full decline mode. Upgrade rates were plummeting, amenities slashed everywhere, service become ultra poor. And through it all, that CO sense of "rahrah we're the best" kept employees thinking they were the best in the business when they clearly no longer were. We frequent flyers saw it. I bailed CO as my primary carrier in 2009 because it had become unbearable. You'd do yourself a favor and really look at the trajectory CO had taken over the years, especially since Gordo left.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 43):
So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore and the one person who's job is to sustain profitability at United and cannot is from Continental.

Exactly. What's done is done and now is now. The reality is that UA dosn't stack up well among the most important segment of their customers...the 20% who produce 80% of the revenue (not actual numbers...). That's what's missing. And the sooner UA comes to terms with this, the sooner it can rise from its proverbial ashes.
 
codc10
Posts: 1749
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2000 7:18 am

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 43):
So many awards, so many accolades, yet they don't exist anymore

This is one of your favorite retorts but it's flat-out wrong.

Continental Airlines, Inc. still exists as a separate legal entity, a subsidiary of United Continental Holdings, Inc. The new company (United Airlines, Inc.) will come after the legal merger of the subsidiaries some time in April. The 'legal merger' which you misconstrue as the time Continental Airlines, Inc. ceased to exist, was simply the merger of both subsidiaries under the United Continental Holdings company. They still are not one company, just the same parent.

Of course, this does not matter at all from an operational standpoint, but legally, this is how it is.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
You'd do yourself a favor and really look at the trajectory CO had taken over the years, especially since Gordo left.

I have heard on this forum that although Gordo "retired" he was indeed forced out back in 2004-2005. Larry and Jeff are two different people but are from the same mold. They just cannot compare to Gordon because neither did anything revolutionary for the company during their tenures (Jeff did merge with United, but that was handed to him on a silver platter.) The people who say that the Continental under Larry was much better than Jeff are clearly mistaken. The cuts were occurring under Larry (as you said) but they had a PR campaign to cover it up, and since their main hubs were fortresses, HQ didn't have to listen if they didn't want to (and for the most part, they didn't.)

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 44):
Exactly. What's done is done and now is now. The reality is that UA dosn't stack up well among the most important segment of their customers...the 20% who produce 80% of the revenue (not actual numbers...). That's what's missing. And the sooner UA comes to terms with this, the sooner it can rise from its proverbial ashes.

Gotta get the PRASM back up at the new UA if they want to compete with DL. Even AA and US have seen their PRASM go up compared to UA's declining one.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3941
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:06 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 41):
I never knew Continental's policy was to piss off people. Though we won numerous awards and accolades for being a great airline. Always wondered why my significant other's clients always demanded flying on Continental to go overseas, if we were so bad as some would have everyone believe.


I didn't know it was either until someone posted it, sure seemed strange to me since CO was all I flew from 1986 till the merger and can't remember getting pissed at all. Oh well.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
If you've recently checked in for a complicated intl itinerary with UA, you'll understand what I just said...UA has the worst check-in process of any airline I know for intl travel. Don't believe me? Give it a try and see for yourself


I've had two such itineraries within the last six months and have found no issues getting checked in or getting changed to a different connecting flight on another Star Alliance partner due to a late arriving flight which delayed our flight. Other than the delays we all know about and all suffer through I can't agree with you.

Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
The only way I would go back to being Plat or 1k on UA would be if I had a reasonable expectation of being taken care of when I need assistance


I've been taken care of when it was needed and not had any issues, knock on wood!

I have noticed some changes in the last couple of months for the good, baby steps but still steps forward. Hopefully the trend will continue and profits will rise as will the entire experience on UA. Another year like last will certainly not sit will with investors or customers.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
United1
Posts: 2827
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 9:21 am

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 47):
Quoting aaexecplat (Reply 42):
If you've recently checked in for a complicated intl itinerary with UA, you'll understand what I just said...UA has the worst check-in process of any airline I know for intl travel. Don't believe me? Give it a try and see for yourself


I've had two such itineraries within the last six months and have found no issues getting checked in or getting changed to a different connecting flight on another Star Alliance partner due to a late arriving flight which delayed our flight.

...indeed...check in on UA is very easy. On my phone, on the web or at the airport...and the automatic check in for the return flight is a nice feature.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3941
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: UAL Reports Q4 2012 Loss

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 48):
the automatic check in for the return flight is a nice feature.



Spot on Marine!! Even I the Army guy can't foul that up!  
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.