JoeCanuck
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ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:42 pm

ATR seems close to pulling the trigger on a turbo prop larger than their 600.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...roval-of-90-seat-turboprop-381418/

Quote:
Chief executive Filippo Bagnato showed a slide during the airframer's press conference in Toulouse on 23 January, depicting an outline of the future aircraft.

It featured a wing with upwards-angled winglets and engines with eight-blade propellers.

The illustration also showed a classic T-tail, with the horizontal stabiliser mounted on top of the fin. On current-generation ATR 42 and 72 aircraft, the fin extends above the horizontal stabiliser.

Their timing might be pretty good. With the CSeries and Lear 85 hogging resources, BBD might not be in a position to challenge them. The flipside to that is the Q-400 seems to me like it would be an easier plane to stretch. 'Both Pratt and GE say they will or have engines suitable for the planes.

How soon can we expect one or both of these large props?
What the...?
 
spantax
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:50 pm

Great news. I hope that a new era of big turboprops à la Electra, Viscount.... is on the making. With an amazing CASM, STOL capabilities and noise reduction tricks this could open a lot of new routes or even offer the possibility of a "turboprop LCC model". At least here in Europe short hops are being lost quickly in favour of high speed trains and big turboprops could, maybe, change somehow the game.
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aerorobnz
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:18 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Thread starter):
How soon can we expect one or both of these large props?

Well ATR seem to be the only ones interested in future new design props, and it is ATR still gaining customers and new orders for their current aircraft. I think ATR have pretty much signed off on a design tbh, maybe with an EIS 2015-2017. I see the ATR92 as one size up, possibly 5 abreast, and ideal for many markets which need additional capacity but dont have infinite gate space and runways which don't allow for jet services. In fact, keep the fuel burn down and the payload reasonable/good this aircraft could well be taking away orders/business from EMB170s and 190s

A stretch of the already stretched and ungainly Q400 I don't believe would provide the right aircraft to compete with this.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 2):
I see the ATR92 as one size up, possibly 5 abreast

If they were to move to a 5 abreast, how many additional seats would it provide (I'm not sure how many rows on the current ATR72)? Could they possibly offer two models of 5 abreast one base and then a stretch to give more flexibility and the possibility for a business class, premium economy and economy?
 
point2point
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:48 pm

Just from this quick read I'm kind of puzzled at the market(s) that this aircraft would serve?

Somehow, at least from my POV, the market needs smaller, more fuel and cost efficient props having some 20-40 seats, for regional airports (that usually don't have much population around them or high demand for many seats) with birds like the BE1 or EM2 on their way out. The new generations of C-Series and others along those lines seem like they could easily substitute for this 90-seater prop and for not that much more operational cost or fuel savings at the airports that require this higher seat demand. And when considering speed, these props usually will spend more time in the air than the jets.

At any rate, ATR hopefully has pegged the markets where they would be proficient, and that purchase price, fuel and operational savings, and maintenance costs will be advantageous to carriers. But, are there any carriers out there that are even presently interested?

Of course, if these things are designed get around scope clauses, well.......

 
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 3):
If they were to move to a 5 abreast, how many additional seats would it provide

17 rows x4 on AT7. 68 seats.

If all they did was make an enlarged scale AT7 without increasing length so much that allowed for 5 abreast 17x5 = 85 seats.. If you Stretch an ATR72 by 5 rows you also get the same capacity as 5 abreast. The aircraft I have in my head at least is a cross between an ATR72 and a civilian Transall C160.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
MEA-707
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:17 pm

I hope they will make a 5 abreast design, just for the esthetics and the coolness of having big turboprops again. A bit of trivia; so far the final bigger (5 abreast or more, 80 seats or more) propellor engined passenger aircraft built was an Il-18 in 1969... although reading between the lines I fear for a 4 abreast flying pencil.
5 Abreast will be a good basis for a new family, it might even make 150 seats possible (look at the DC-9 family which seated between 65 and 180).

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
Somehow, at least from my POV, the market needs smaller, more fuel and cost efficient props having some 20-40 seats, for regional airports (that usually don't have much population around them or high demand for many seats) with birds like the BE1 or EM2 on their way out.

Beech 1900s, Embrear 120s are still available and not out of hours yet... the reason they were withdrawn by most airlines is not that they use too much fuel or so, but because there are many fixed costs (2 pilots, 1 F/A if 20-50 seats, landing, handling) which make them less attractive on a RPK basis. I fear that we won't see many new 20-50 seaters anytime soon.
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queb
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Thread starter):
With the CSeries and Lear 85 hogging resources, BBD might not be in a position to challenge them.

BBD will probably create a JV soon with korean companies (KAI & Korean Air Aerospace) and launch a 90 pax turboprop.
 
wingnutmn
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:21 am

I know that P&W 150 on the Q400 has massive amounts of power. As it stands today, it could power a 90 seat t-prop no problem. Hell, on one engine a Q can out climb some regional jets.

Wingnut
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ltbewr
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:29 am

I wonder if they could do a 'combi' version or a full freighter version for a number of markets like the Caribbean, islands, isolated and smaller cities, Alaska/Norhern Canada as well as where short runways and a need for larger freight capacity and replace the few DC-3's and other prop airplanes that may be ending their useful lives.
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:41 am

Would this model get a front pax door? It would seem awkward to board a near-100 seat plane from the rear.
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:59 am

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
The new generations of C-Series and others along those lines seem like they could easily substitute for this 90-seater prop and for not that much more operational cost or fuel savings at the airports that require this higher seat demand. And when considering speed, these props usually will spend more time in the air than the jets.

The CSeries is too big and heavy vs TP... seats up to 125 @30" pitch. And block time on short routes is not really a consideration.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 5):
If all they did was make an enlarged scale AT7 without increasing length

The article reports "Bagnato says that while the future model will have features distinguishing it from current-generation ATR aircraft, it will still be based on the current design philosophy for commonality."
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HermansCVR580
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:16 am

Ok can we get one of our talented artists on here to do a sketch of what is describe in the article? In my head I have a picture of......... well I'm not really sure what is going on up there in my mind but when I hear classic T-tail I instantly picture DC-9 or 727.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:23 am

I found this rendering online...

http://www.acam.asso.fr/photos/chrono_trains/21-2011/21-05-ATR-NG-2011-01-27.jpg

Here a link to an earlier article on the 90-seater.

ATR outlines 90-seater development plans
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queb
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting HermansCVR580 (Reply 12):
Ok can we get one of our talented artists on here to do a sketch of what is describe in the article?
 
HermansCVR580
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:38 am

Very interesting. Ok I gotta admit if this is it, I see an ATR that bread with a Beech 1900D. Reason I say that is the tail and the wings are kinda Beech 1900 looking. Its got potential thats for sure.
The right decision at the wrong time, is still a wrong decision. "Hal Carr"
 
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Aesma
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:19 am

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 10):
Would this model get a front pax door? It would seem awkward to board a near-100 seat plane from the rear.

It's already an available option on current ATRs.

I'm pretty excited by this, it's not everyday that a new plane is born !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
zkncj
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:40 am

Just before Christmas, when NZ had its first 72-600 delivered they expressed interesting in being the launch customer for this model.

They are currently phasing out the 733 with 133 for A320 which 171 seats, which is to large for some markets.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:56 am

I'd love to see a dual family of 90-100 seats and 120-130 seats, but I think this will likely just be a stretch. Regardless, for 250-750 mile markets, I'd think it'd be a great replacement for CRJ/ERJ/733/73G/A319's that often ply these routes today.

I think that artist rendering looks great!

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AirbusA6
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 am

I'm sure it will be a 4 abreast stretch, rather than a wider fuselage. Fine by me, every seat window or aisle! I love those 8 bladed propellers too...
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queb
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 18):
but I think this will likely just be a stretch.

Per ATR ceo, it will be a completely new design with new generation engine. Three engine manufacturers show interest: Pratt & Whitney Canada, GE (CPX38) and Safran (Snecma).

http://www.hmgaerospace.com/news/show/4693

"Bagnato said the 90-seater, “while maintaining same design concept as today’s ATR – “simple” – is from an overall standpoint is another aeroplane. The ATR 72 cannot be stretched. Once we studied an ATR 82, [a programme] which was left on paper. Due to length limitation, it was not possible without changes to both the wing and the engine.”

Bagnato added that he would not enter any agreement on engines without the OEM “being able to give me two brothers. The family concept is a key point. Major equipment must have a good level of commonality”.

Bagnato explained that a likely scenario will to have the 90-seater as a new aircraft, but having a version of the new engine fitted to the current models. New airframe designs for the 50- and 70-seaters are unlikely. “If I was designing an ATR 72 from scratch now, I would not do much different [with the airframe structure],” he stressed."
 
parapente
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:57 pm

I wonder what the market limit is for prop plane size? Clearly they only remain economic (vis a vis time length of journey) over the shorter sectors where the slower cruising speed is less of an issue (particularly as you get some of it back as you never need to go to the higher Fl's).

Then there is route density. From this announcement it appears that 90 seats can be an economic proposition (enough market demand) - also they have the fundamental aircraft structure in place so lower risk.

Might there be levels above this? Say at 120 seats? This would of course require a ground up new plane. But does anybody think that there is a market lurking up there or have aircraft such as the Bombardier "c" and others now put an effective ceiling on prop planes larget than 90 seats?
 
A342
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:12 pm

A pair of 7500 hp GE CPX38 engines could comfortably power a 130 seater at Q400-like speeds. I really hope they at least consider such a size, at 150 seats in a high density layout, even Ryanair might bite...
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Clydenairways
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:44 pm

I am really interested by this development for a 90 seater prop. We haven't had one of these for years.
I think there could be huge potential for an aircraft such as this and hopefully they will keep to their current philosophy by keeping it simple. I think this is why the current ATR model has been more successful than the Q400.

It will be interesting to see what width they go for, either a 5 or 4 abreast. If we see that the CRJ1000 and ERJ190 can accommodate 100 in a 2 x 2 arrangement then it could be possible. It might also keep the development costs down.
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting parapente (Reply 21):
Clearly they only remain economic (vis a vis time length of journey) over the shorter sectors where the slower cruising speed is less of an issue (particularly as you get some of it back as you never need to go to the higher Fl's).

By the time this design would EIS we will have a carbon tax... there really should be no doubt about that. Europe tried and now with Obama in for another 4 years without having to face re-election and highlighting action on climate change as one priority in his Inaugural Address. This will "improve" the economics of TP's and tilt the range vs speed balance a bit more.

Quoting A342 (Reply 22):
A pair of 7500 hp GE CPX38 engines could comfortably power a 130 seater at Q400-like speeds.

Bagnato said that speed target is around 300 so no Q400-like speed.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Clydenairways
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 24):
Bagnato said that speed target is around 300 so no Q400-like speed.

Well the success of the current ATR models shows that the market prefers low operating cost and simplicity over speed so perhaps they will stick with this winning formula.
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 25):
Well the success of the current ATR models shows that the market prefers low operating cost and simplicity over speed so perhaps they will stick with this winning formula.

By the time of EIS the other range "extender", in addition to lower costs, is NexGen ATC.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Flighty
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
Just from this quick read I'm kind of puzzled at the market(s) that this aircraft would serve?

Short-haul markets where the A319 or 73G burn too much fuel. ATR is talking about potentially a turboprop mainline aircraft, the first in (?) 40 to 50 years.

The E-175 and E-190 NEO are going to provide major competition. If BBD (edit: ATR!) can get fuel consumption much lower than E-175 NEO, then they have a good case. If not, forget this whole thing.

[Edited 2013-01-25 10:55:01]
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:44 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
ATR is talking about potentially a turboprop mainline aircraft

Don't forget that it is still only 90-seats all Y. The CS100 is 125-seats all Y... big gap.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
The E-175 and E-190 NEO are going to provide major competition.

You are forgetting about all the other costs as it isn't just about fuel burn.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
If BBD can get fuel consumption much lower than E-175 NEO, then they have a good case.

Operating costs include more than just fuel consumption. In any case, the CS100 cannot get lower fuel burn than the E175.
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Aesma
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 20):
"Bagnato said the 90-seater, “while maintaining same design concept as today’s ATR – “simple” – is from an overall standpoint is another aeroplane. The ATR 72 cannot be stretched. Once we studied an ATR 82, [a programme] which was left on paper. Due to length limitation, it was not possible without changes to both the wing and the engine.”

Interesting, so I will bet on a 5 abreast with margin for a stretch.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Clydenairways
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
The E-175 and E-190 NEO are going to provide major competition. If BBD can get fuel consumption much lower than E-175 NEO, then they have a good case. If not, forget this whole thing.

The problem with the Cseries and ERJ-NEO is that they will be optimised for much longer range flying and because of this will probably be up to 10 tons heavier than this turboprop.
Over short flights of say 300nm i'd say this ATR could have unbeatable economics.
 
tsugambler
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:52 pm

Hope this one has the entrance at the front instead of the rear.
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 30):
Over short flights of say 300nm i'd say this ATR could have unbeatable economics.

Undoubtedly. What will be interesting is what would be the range limit where it would have "unbeatable economics", which would be variable as it depends on a whole host of factors, including which continent, etc.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:04 pm

Whilst this is a much anticipated and expected development, I almost wonder if this move is coming at the wrong time. There's still uncertainty about just how efficient the next generation of jet engines will be on the E-Jet NG, C Series etc... but it seems they will meet or exceed expectations, and that will narrow the market for large props. Interesting one to watch.

Quoting parapente (Reply 21):
Might there be levels above this? Say at 120 seats?

Almost certainly.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 24):
Bagnato said that speed target is around 300 so no Q400-like speed.

That is important, one of the big issues with the Q400 is that its fuel consumption is too close to a jet.


Dan  
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ikramerica
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:30 pm

HA might want to look at these...
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gigneil
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 4):
he new generations of C-Series and others along those lines seem like they could easily substitute for this 90-seater prop and for not that much more operational cost or fuel savings at the airports that require this higher seat demand

I think you'd be surprised just how cheap flying a prop can be, especially vs an RJ.

Quoting parapente (Reply 21):
Might there be levels above this? Say at 120 seats? This would of course require a ground up new plane. But does anybody think that there is a market lurking up there or have aircraft such as the Bombardier "c" and others now put an effective ceiling on prop planes larget than 90 seats?

I'm not sure that size is an issue... if you could fly a 120 seat prop from LAX-SFO, or EWR-IAD/DCA/PHL/ETC, you
d get brilliant benefits.

NS
 
scarebus03
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:51 pm

I think if the bigger Aircraft is developed it will have to be front loading for pax and may not have room for the larger cargo bay between the cockpit and cabin. The Aircraft will also have to be more suited to jetways too make it more popular. Realistically with pax instead of cargo in the forward cargo bay and a slight stretch with the fuselage, add more powerful engines, efficient props and a higher and reinforced landing gear you're nearly there. I don't see a huge change from the current design.

Brgds
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No faults found......................
 
zkncj
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting scarebus03 (Reply 36):
The Aircraft will also have to be more suited to jetways too make it more popular.

Brgds
SB03

NZ does that 72-500/600 with jetways at IVC/DUD/PMR
 
scarebus03
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 37):

So did American Eagle, but it isn't practical in every AIrport and results in a lot of damage to a part of the Aircraft that was never designed for that purpose.
No faults found......................
 
scarebus03
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:13 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 37):

So did American Eagle, but it isn't practical in every AIrport and results in a lot of damage to a part of the Aircraft that was never designed for that purpose.
No faults found......................
 
N62NA
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:28 pm

Would be good on AA's routes out of MIA to Nassau/Freeport.
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 33):
That is important, one of the big issues with the Q400 is that its fuel consumption is too close to a jet.

Every bit helps. Boeing's and MIT's proposals for next gen NBs include reducing speed for a whole host of reasons including the most obvious, reduced fuel burn. However, there is a very real possibility that fuel prices are heading lower, with AVITAS predicting $40 by 2018 and BofA predicting the possibility of $50 by 2015.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
os787
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting planemaker (Reply 41):
However, there is a very real possibility that fuel prices are heading lower, with AVITAS predicting $40 by 2018 and BofA predicting the possibility of $50 by 2015.


As somebody who is making his daily living with finding oil/gas I don't see any scenario (excluding a dramatic global recession/depression with significant reduction in oil consumption) where oil would go down to $40 or $50 dollars per barrel for an extended amount of time (e.g. 12 months).
When looking at the global finding costs for oil reserves a price below $70 or $80 per bbl is not sustainable (short term price drops due to economy/speculation are always possible).
 
planemaker
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting os787 (Reply 42):
As somebody who is making his daily living with finding oil/gas I don't see any scenario (excluding a dramatic global recession/depression with significant reduction in oil consumption) where oil would go down to $40 or $50 dollars per barrel for an extended amount of time (e.g. 12 months).

There is already a "glut" in North America. Canadian oil is at $40/bbl...

Quote:
Recently, the bitumen crude from the oil sands has sold for more than $40 a barrel below U.S. light crude

And it isn't just BofA. For example, Pilarski of AVIATAS has been saying this for years.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
tommytoyz
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:21 am

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 23):
It will be interesting to see what width they go for, either a 5 or 4 abreast.

Since the current ATR design has reached it's maximum useful length already, more seats = more than 4 abreast. Turboprops are not much more efficient than 737s on longer routes, since jets cruise at much higher altitudes.

Short stage lengths are where Turboprops shine compared to jets, where the average altitude is lower anyway and much time is spent flying slower, at the request of ATC.

I recently flew on an Q400 and initial acceleration and climb out put a smile on my face. The A330 I later flew on that day seemed down right sleepy in this regard. Block time between HAM and DUS was 50 minutes - identical to the 737 I few going the other way earlies.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:27 am

at

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 33):


That is important, one of the big issues with the Q400 is that its fuel consumption is too close to a jet.

Actually, the Q fuel consumption isn't that far from the ATR at 300kts...and at those speeds, it's not even close to what a jet burns. The high speed cruise of the Q-400 is 340kts but almost nobody flies those speeds regularly unless they want to maximize the number of flights in a day. Most airlines use the speed margin to make up lost time to remain on schedule.

Quoting os787 (Reply 42):

OPEC, which will have control over a very significant portion of the global oil supply for decades to come, has stated in the recent past that they want to keep oil close to the 90 dollar per barrel mark as a basement. The US supply is growing but with the global demand at around 90 million bbl/day, the margin of overproduction by non OPEC countries will only be about a percentage point or two for the foreseeable future...a margin small enough to disappear if OPEC cuts production to maintain prices or a single supplier has production issues.

NYMEX forecast average is for oil to remain at about $100/bbl through 2014...with no significant downward pressure on price forecast after that.

As we have seen in the past, oil price forecasting is more voodoo than science and it takes very little to change the parameters, especially with the global demand withing a percentage or two of supply...and no signs of that changing.

That is why NEO's and MAX's are selling like hotcakes. There would be virtually no need for them, (or their higher price tags), if airlines thought oil would get below $50/bbl over the next decade...and airlines are very aware of oil prices and futures.

More efficient t-props have a very good chance of taking over the sub 100 seat arena in the next few years. The GTF may have record bypass and efficiencies for a jet but it can never have the bypass ratio of a turboprop.
What the...?
 
SXDFC
Posts: 1692
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:07 pm

RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:29 am

There are a few things that come to my mind at least when I look at this drawing..

1.) IMHO the rendering itself looks like its from the late -90s, early 2000's. I say this because most A/C renderings seem to be a bit more clearer, and 3D. Again this is IMHO..

2.) Where is the cargo door? That seems to be a trademark with the ATR series..

3.) The cockpit windows kinda reminds me of the Dornier 328..
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:53 am

Bloomberg
The United States will overtake Saudi Arabia and Russia as the world's top oil producer by 2017, the West's energy agency said on Monday, predicting Washington will come very close to achieving a previously unthinkable energy self-sufficiency.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
columba
Posts: 5055
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:36 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Reply 44):
I recently flew on an Q400 and initial acceleration and climb out put a smile on my face. The A330 I later flew on that day seemed down right sleepy in this regard. Block time between HAM and DUS was 50 minutes - identical to the 737 I few going the other way earlies.

so how was your flight with Air Berlin  


Nice to see a larger turbo prop again. I was thinking of such a concept as soon as I have seen the engines of the A400M the very first time. The new ATR will be a fascinating aircraft, hope there will be an even larger variant with 120 seats.

Many people claimed turbo props to be dead as soon as the CRJ entered service back in the 90s. Now you see airlines wanting to get rid of these small jets as soon as possible and ATR presents this concept.

I was wondering if ATR might offer a freighter version of this aircraft ? I believe if the price is right there will be huge market for such an aircraft.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
a380900
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:26 pm

RE: ATR Close To Offering 90 Seat Turbo Prop

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:04 pm

Would the A400M engine be a good match for such a plane?

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