airtran737
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FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:32 pm

http://avherald.com/h?article=45cb7632&opt=0

Av Herald is showing an MD-11 tail strike in DEN today. Looks like N618FE will be on the ground for some time.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
cornutt
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:06 pm

Ouch! Buckled the floor... I wonder what it did to the rear bulkhead.
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:47 pm

Sadly I think we may be looking at the end of another beautiful Trijet. Thanks FEDEX for wrecking another one.
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fr8mech
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:57 pm

Those pictures don't look bad at all. The report of a buckled floor is troubling, but somehow, based on the apparent exterior damage, I'm thinking the report is exaggerated.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 2):
Sadly I think we may be looking at the end of another beautiful Trijet. Thanks FEDEX for wrecking another one.

Hopefully not. They recently bought two other MD-11s as sources for spare parts. At least, this one didn't end up belly up or in the water, isn't it FedEx ?
 
135mech
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
Those pictures don't look bad at all. The report of a buckled floor is troubling, but somehow, based on the apparent exterior damage, I'm thinking the report is exaggerated.



That's what sucks about these... they DID report a "Hard Landing" and external appearances are most always deceiving. If they reported a "buckled floor" then it's a lot worse than it looks!

Regards,
135Mech
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:31 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
Those pictures don't look bad at all. The report of a buckled floor is troubling, but somehow, based on the apparent exterior damage, I'm thinking the report is exaggerated.

Unfortunately, the main damage didn't come from the tailstrike, it came from the impact. They could be quite lucky, today, that they didn't experience yet another classic MD-11 failure mode- hit too hard, rip main wing spars, lose the plane.

Also, photos of tailstrike damage rarely tell the whole story; you can't tell from an exterior photo that the aft pressure bulkhead is buckled, for example.

Quoting 135mech (Reply 5):
That's what sucks about these... they DID report a "Hard Landing" and external appearances are most always deceiving. If they reported a "buckled floor" then it's a lot worse than it looks!

Yup yup. Bad day for 618.
 
MD88Captain
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:33 pm

Buckled floor = major, major $ and time. Maybe more than the airframe is worth? Probably more than the airframe is worth.
 
Max Q
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:04 am

Lucky it wasn't worse.


A very unforgiving Aircraft bites again.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:40 am

The MD-11 has proven to be tricky to handle especially during approach and landing. But once more, it did happen again with FedEx. So unless any outside element like a gust of wind occurred at the last moment, I find it interesting that both FedEx and UPS operate a large fleet of MD-11, one for longer than the other, and still, one company's aircraft were involved in several incidents or accidents, while the other's seem to go the other way while both companies handle the same kind of cargo.
 
cbphoto
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:02 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
The MD-11 has proven to be tricky to handle especially during approach and landing. But once more, it did happen again with FedEx. So unless any outside element like a gust of wind occurred at the last moment, I find it interesting that both FedEx and UPS operate a large fleet of MD-11, one for longer than the other, and still, one company's aircraft were involved in several incidents or accidents, while the other's seem to go the other way while both companies handle the same kind of cargo.

Simple, it's the handling differences between the MD-10 and MD-11. Fed Ex is the only airline in the world that crews are dual qualified on the MD-10 and 11. Because of the dual qualifications, the crews are not as proficient in the aircraft as their competitors are with the 11s. When you add up a tricky aircraft to land, with a crew who hasn't flown a Md-11 trip in a while and is not as proficient as someone who flies nothing but the MD-11, then you will surely have more incidents with the type! After the crash of the Md-11 in Japan, it was the widely debated between Fed Ex crews about splitting the fleet up as far as pilot qualifications go. Fed Ex I believe shot down those ideas due to cost issues as well as guarantees from Boeing in regards to the flight deck overhauls on the DC-10s
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ltbewr
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:42 am

That don't look good....I guess it will takes a few days to determine how bad the damage is. I suspect that if the damage is too much to fix vs. the value of the plane that this will get parted out to keep some other MD-11's flying.
Was there any reason to believe that was a cargo shift ?
 
PITrules
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:10 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
So unless any outside element like a gust of wind occurred at the last moment, I find it interesting that both FedEx and UPS operate a large fleet of MD-11, one for longer than the other, and still, one company's aircraft were involved in several incidents or accidents, while the other's seem to go the other way while both companies handle the same kind of cargo.

UPS did crack an MD-11 tail a few months ago at SDF, flown by management pilots. It was swiftly put in the hangar; needless to say it didn't make the headlines.
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HAWK21M
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:14 am

The pictures don't seem serious enough.....Any inside views......
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:31 pm

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 2):
Thanks FEDEX for wrecking another one.

VERY uncalled for remark dude! You weren't there and don't have a clue what happened. 12 yr. MD-11 Capt Fedex Ret.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 11):
Was there any reason to believe that was a cargo shift ?

very doubtful.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 10):
Simple, it's the handling differences between the MD-10 and MD-11. Fed Ex is the only airline in the world that crews are dual qualified on the MD-10 and 11. Because of the dual qualifications, the crews are not as proficient in the aircraft as their competitors are with the 11s. When you add up a tricky aircraft to land, with a crew who hasn't flown a Md-11 trip in a while and is not as proficient as someone who flies nothing but the MD-11, then you will surely have more incidents with the type! After the crash of the Md-11 in Japan, it was the widely debated between Fed Ex crews about splitting the fleet up as far as pilot qualifications go. Fed Ex I believe shot down those ideas due to cost issues as well as guarantees from Boeing in regards to the flight deck overhauls on the DC-10s

Thanks for your reply. I should have remembered the dual qualification.
 
Max Q
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 10):
After the crash of the Md-11 in Japan, it was the widely debated between Fed Ex crews about splitting the fleet up as far as pilot qualifications go. Fed Ex I believe shot down those ideas due to cost issues as well as guarantees from Boeing in regards to the flight deck overhauls on the DC-10s

You don't save much money when you're crashing them all the time..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):

You don't save much money when you're crashing them all the time..

   Best summation yet.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
aerowrench
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:18 pm

Its all about the wing loading...Glad to see this crew walk away with nothing more than a possible bruised ego.
 
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:45 pm

It's never good when you leave aircraft parts behind on the runway.

You never know what will actually happen at the end of the runway until you arrive there, weatherwise.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
gigneil
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
But once more, it did happen again with FedEx.

Fedex has more flights on the type than anyone, ever. It makes sense that they would have the most incidents.

Quoting Aerowrench (Reply 18):
Its all about the wing loading.

And the empennage, which is 40% smaller than a DC-10's, creates interesting handling situations at landing according to accounts from a number of very experienced captains.

The single type certification for two planes with such different handling attitudes is very interesting to me, since I'm not a pilot I perhaps don't understand where the line would be drawn between what constitutes common and what does not.
It can't just be the cockpit, otherwise the MD-11 would have always been the same rating as the DC-10, different 747s wouldn't be the same rating, and 737s would not all carry the same rating.

Airbus and Boeing discuss their FBW systems as enabling common qualifications - Airbus planes from the A318 to the A380 are said to handle quite similarly, according to them.

NS
 
cbphoto
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:47 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 16):
You don't save much money when you're crashing them all the time..

Well, if insurance pays for it, I guess you would be still saving money! But then again, Fed Ex clearly has no idea how to run an airline, apparently!  
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Max Q
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:54 am

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 21):

Well, if insurance pays for it, I guess you would be still saving money! But then again, Fed Ex clearly has no idea how to run an airline, apparently!

Insurance doesn't pay all the costs resulting from a crash, the damage is enormous, for passenger Airlines it can run over a Billion dollars easily.


Freight operators are, by their very nature 'lower profile' and their accidents are soon forgotten but the costs are still there and the effect on their insurance premiums as well.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:04 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 20):
It can't just be the cockpit, otherwise the MD-11 would have always been the same rating as the DC-10,

Don't follow that since the MD-11 cockpit and DC-10 cockpit is totally different. It's the MD-11 and the MD-10 that has like cockpits but the handling differences are completely different. One flies like a MD-11 and the other flies like a DC-10.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:06 pm

Isn't it a little bit funny that the 787 has been grounded but the MD 11 keeps on flying even though there have been a series of accidents and incidents with the MD 11, which can be clearly linked to the design of the MD 11 (i.e. the fact that MD decided to keep the same wing as for the DC 10).

I am fully aware that I am comparing apples with organges since the 788 has only a limited number of flying hours compared to the MD 11. But still, I think every a.netter will confirm that within the next 5 years there will be another serious landing accident with the MD 11 a là LH MD 11 in Saudi Arabia, Fedex MD 11 in Japan etc.). So, applying the same standards as for the 788 should the (cargo) airlines start to phase out the MD 11s?
 
gigneil
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:57 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 23):
Don't follow that since the MD-11 cockpit and DC-10 cockpit is totally different. It's the MD-11 and the MD-10 that has like cockpits but the handling differences are completely different. One flies like a MD-11 and the other flies like a DC-10.

Sorry, that was somewhat the opposite of what I meant to say.... I meant that if it were just the cockpit, none of those other types would have common type ratings. So it can't be the flight deck layout alone that defines the commonality.

NS
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:09 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):


Those pictures don't look bad at all. The report of a buckled floor is troubling, but somehow, based on the apparent exterior damage, I'm thinking the report is exaggerated.

Seriously. People keep talking about that (more on the site linked to than here at any rate), but I haven't seen anything that says floor damage actually happened. I've worked on a Scud or two, and while that type of damage is possible, I wouldn't be so quick to jump on that bandwagon either. They are a very robust design. This airplane could be very easily put right if we're just talking about doublers or even a re-skin...

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):

The MD-11 has proven to be tricky to handle especially during approach and landing.


Right, it has. But a lot of those difficulties have been addressed and improved a while back. As well, this is FX. I'm not saying their awesome, just that there's unlikely to be an airline with more MD-11 experience out there. It stands to reason that they would know what to train for by now...



Quoting gigneil (Reply 20):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 9):
But once more, it did happen again with FedEx.

Fedex has more flights on the type than anyone, ever. It makes sense that they would have the most incidents.

It did happen to FX, and there is the MD-10 vs MD-11 pilot thing. But I think this is true. There have also been incidents with UPS, LHC, KE, & Avient, as well as some well known PAX variant incidents (though only one of those was actually related to it being an MD-11). FX has had three write offs of the type, and we can say that's a lot, but we need to remember that there have only been 200 MD-11s made in the 1st place, so any number of wrecks or w/o will stand out. FX may indeed need to review their practices, but I have a hunch that that's really just a product of them having a great deal more MD-11 ops than anyone else. In fact, I'm not sure any airline out there has the level of MD-11 experience FX has...
Be A Perfectionst, You're Nothing If You're Just Another; Something Material, This Isn't Personal...
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 25):
So it can't be the flight deck layout alone that defines the commonality.

Correct, it's the fact that the systems are identical (with some subtle exceptions). What used to be a manually operated system in -10 became an auto system in the -11. I remember in initial school being saying "you mean it's going to handle this automatically and I don't do anything?" The difference being handling due, as I said, to the fact that one is an MD-11 and the other a DC-10. I flew the MD-11 almost totally and saw an MD-10 maybe once or twice a year and maybe one sim ride per year. Even though I flew the DC-10 prior I was so used to the -11 that the MD-10 landing was work. I think the MD-10 A/T retarded at a different rate but none the less I ALWAYS disconnected the A/T for landing in the MD-10. I never had an issue with the -11 A/T.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 26):
FX may indeed need to review their practices,

This was addressed after Narita and it wasn't just a -11 procedure change. The whole issue was how to handle a hard/bounced landing. No longer were you to try to "save" a bounce and complete the landing. Unloading the elevator is a no-no. You stick it at a given pitch angle and go around even if it means hitting again. The -11 with it's high Vapp and high sinkrate just makes it easier to misjudge and get a bounce.

As for DEN I don't know and wouldn't guess.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting gigneil (Reply 20):

Fedex has more flights on the type than anyone, ever. It makes sense that they would have the most incidents.

Seeveral operators have flown the MD-11 for very long times with no serious incidents; FX has had way more than their share. I don't think UPS has had any.

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 21):
Well, if insurance pays for it, I guess you would be still saving money!

If you'd ever had a car accident you would know how foolish that statement is. Insurance companies are not in business to lose money, or to subsidize foolish behavior. I'm surprised that FX's insurance carrier hasn't come down on them yet; maybe after this incident they will. Certainly in private aviation insurance regulations are much more stringent than FAA regulations; for example, when I got a new partner in my 182 the FAA would let him fly it right away after a high performance checkout; the insurance company demanded 12 hours (I think) with an instructor before he could fly solo or with passengers. This in spite of the fact that I could allow any qualified pilot to fly it with no restrictions as long as they were NOT listed on the policy.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
FlyingAY
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
Seeveral operators have flown the MD-11 for very long times with no serious incidents; FX has had way more than their share. I don't think UPS has had any.

There's this one in Louisville:

UPS MD-11 Awaits Repair After June Incident (by Jeffry747 Sep 8 2005 in Civil Aviation)
 
UALAMT
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:51 pm

I personaly inspected this A/C lastnight and in my opinion it will be scrapped.The aft bulkhead is buckled ,in fact the frame in that entire area are twisted and collapsed. the belly skin is ground completely thru.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 28):
Quoting cbphoto (Reply 21):
Well, if insurance pays for it, I guess you would be still saving money!

If you'd ever had a car accident you would know how foolish that statement is. Insurance companies are not in business to lose money, or to subsidize foolish behavior. I'm surprised that FX's insurance carrier hasn't come down on them yet; maybe after this incident they will.

It will cost them at least $1M (deductible) if the cost exceeds that. Also, with most, if not all airlines, they are co-insured where insurance companies will take a percentage of the risk. You will have a lead insurer at a certain percentage and following carriers at other percentages. It will be up to the lead insurer (in general) to decide if it's a total loss or not per the policy limit for what it was insured for. So...just depends on what it's insured for.

As for the insurance company coming down hard on them...just depends on the premium they are paying. If their ratios are good and they are a profitable risk, then the "coming down hard" won't be so hard. There's plenty of excess capacity out there right now, their premiums shouldn't be affected too much depending on their ratios.
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting 135mech (Reply 5):
Quoting UALAMT (Reply 30):
I personaly inspected this A/C lastnight and in my opinion it will be scrapped.The aft bulkhead is buckled ,in fact the frame in that entire area are twisted and collapsed. the belly skin is ground completely thru.

Can you provide some credentials, perhaps? Not that it really matters, this is just the internet, but if you legitimately did this inspection then it will answer a lot of questions.
MSgt, USAF
KC-135R / C-17A Pneudraulic Systems Mechanic Supervisor
 
cornutt
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:46 am

I see on Av Herald today that the FAA has re-categorized this incident as an accident.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:58 am

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 31):
As for the insurance company coming down hard on them...just depends on the premium they are paying.

If I were in the insurance business and was insuring FX, I would be VERY concerned as to why they have had so many MD-11 incidents, which is totally out of proportion to everyone else who has flown the plane as well as the rest of FX's fleet. As an outsider the logical conclusion is the dual qualification with the MD-10; since this is the main thing that differentiates FX from the rest of the world and goes a long way to explain the problem. But that may not be the real issue, and if I had any part in insuring the beasts I'd want to get to the bottom of it. I would think that UPS would want to as well; their premiums are certainly going to go up as s result of all of these incidents (and crashes.)
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Max Q
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:17 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 34):

If I were in the insurance business and was insuring FX, I would be VERY concerned as to why they have had so many MD-11 incidents, which is totally out of proportion to everyone else who has flown the plane as well as the rest of FX's fleet. As an outsider the logical conclusion is the dual qualification with the MD-10; since this is the main thing that differentiates FX from the rest of the world and goes a long way to explain the problem. But that may not be the real issue, and if I had any part in insuring the beasts I'd want to get to the bottom of it. I would think that UPS would want to as well; their premiums are certainly going to go up as s result of all of these incidents (and crashes.)

Well said, just having a common cockpit does not bestow common handling characteristics !


Having a dedicated group of Pilots that only flies the MD11 would be a far safer operation.


The DC-10 (Which, after all is what an MD10 is) is far more forgiving and easily handled than the MD11, if you've been flying that for a while then jump into an MD11 with all it's unforgiving vices the odds are against you.



The MD11 is tricky enough without having a dedicated, and experienced group of Pilots to fly it.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:44 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 24):
I am fully aware that I am comparing apples with organges since the 788 has only a limited number of flying hours compared to the MD 11. But still, I think every a.netter will confirm that within the next 5 years there will be another serious landing accident with the MD 11 a là LH MD 11 in Saudi Arabia, Fedex MD 11 in Japan etc.). So, applying the same standards as for the 788 should the (cargo) airlines start to phase out the MD 11s?

You have a very good point. For the few MD-11 frames there are out there, there are a lot of landing incidents owing to the handling characteristics of the MD-11, which is reputed to be an unforgiving aircraft to fly.

I think that the reason it hasn't been grounded is simply because it so rarely flies passengers and because it is being phased out, anyway.

I think China has banned the MD-11 from its airports.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:34 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 35):
The DC-10 (Which, after all is what an MD10 is) is far more forgiving and easily handled than the MD11, if you've been flying that for a while then jump into an MD11 with all it's unforgiving vices the odds are against you.

Folks this is getting a little extreme. We all agree that the -11 CAN be a little tricky sometimes but not every landing is a handful. As I said before I got 12 years in the left seat and can count the times I had a handful. My most usual concern was high ldg wgt and and a wet runway. It looks like every post has already decided it's because of the different handling characteristics between the -11 & MD-10 when actually no one knows anything about the crew or what happened. This crew could have been like me and rarely flown a -10 or it could have been the opposite but no one knows.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
I think China has banned the MD-11 from its airports.

Really? Fedex flies -11s into about 4 or 5 cities in China everyday.
 
davidho1985
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 37):

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
I think China has banned the MD-11 from its airports.

Really? Fedex flies -11s into about 4 or 5 cities in China everyday.

China Gov only banned Chinese's airline to operate MD11.
Same as 787, all airlines from China are not allowed to operate 787,
but foreign airlines are allowed to operate the 787 in China.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:08 pm

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 38):
China Gov only banned Chinese's airline to operate MD11.
Same as 787, all airlines from China are not allowed to operate 787,
but foreign airlines are allowed to operate the 787 in China.

Ah. Thank you for the clarification.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:20 pm

[quote=Max Q,reply=22]Insurance doesn't pay all the costs resulting from a crash, the damage is enormous, for passenger Airlines it can run over a Billion dollars easily.
/quote]

Sometimes the airline even makes money from the insurance company. When it came time for the insurance pay out for AA 191, the insurers payed AA a very considerable amount more than AA had originally paid for the aircraft. So AA actually made money on 191.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
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longhauler
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:24 pm

Quoting type-rated (Reply 40):
Sometimes the airline even makes money from the insurance company. When it came time for the insurance pay out for AA 191, the insurers payed AA a very considerable amount more than AA had originally paid for the aircraft. So AA actually made money on 191.

Perhaps with regard to that one hull. But all DC-10 operators lost a considerable amount of money due to the grounding of the type initiated by that accident.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
akelley728
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:32 pm

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 38):
Same as 787, all airlines from China are not allowed to operate 787,

What? The following Chinese airlines have the 787 on order:

Air China 15 787-9
China Southern 15 787-8
Hainan AIrliners 10 787-8
 
AA737-823
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 42):
What? The following Chinese airlines have the 787 on order:

Air China 15 787-9
China Southern 15 787-8
Hainan AIrliners 10 787-8

Indeed; yet the Chinese government has forbidden their acceptance. Several Chinese 787s are ready for delivery up in Seattle, but the CAAC won't issue certificates.
Some are even in beautiful special liveries... shame. But moot point right now, as NO ONE can fly the danged things anyhow.

Enough of that- back on topic, please.
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:51 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 38):
China Gov only banned Chinese's airline to operate MD11.
Same as 787, all airlines from China are not allowed to operate 787,
but foreign airlines are allowed to operate the 787 in China.

China Cargo Airlines still has three MD-11F's in operation?
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
Max Q
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:21 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 40):

Sometimes the airline even makes money from the insurance company. When it came time for the insurance pay out for AA 191, the insurers payed AA a very considerable amount more than AA had originally paid for the aircraft. So AA actually made money on 191.

Perhaps they made a profit on the hull but so what ?


You need to consider the massive loss of revenue from the grounding and the expense of the bad press keeping passengers away.


Overall, it's a massive loss.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
davidho1985
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:39 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 44):
China Cargo Airlines still has three MD-11F's in operation?

The ban is imposed after the KE crash in Shanghai.
In addition, I have read a news state that following the retirment of the remaining MD-XX in CZ fleet,
China's airlines will no longer operate any MD planes.
 
flyinryan99
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:37 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 41):
Quoting type-rated (Reply 40):
Sometimes the airline even makes money from the insurance company. When it came time for the insurance pay out for AA 191, the insurers payed AA a very considerable amount more than AA had originally paid for the aircraft. So AA actually made money on 191.

Perhaps with regard to that one hull. But all DC-10 operators lost a considerable amount of money due to the grounding of the type initiated by that accident.

This may be true if they insured the hull for a value higher then what they paid for it. However, they would not have "made money" from insurance as insurance is only to make you whole again. Making money (for profit) would be fraud. That's not to say the value of the aircraft didn't go up from the time of purchase because it can happen (although not in today's market).
 
msp747
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 43):
Indeed; yet the Chinese government has forbidden their acceptance. Several Chinese 787s are ready for delivery up in Seattle, but the CAAC won't issue certificates

This has been an issue for months, long before the battery problems surfaced with the 787 and the grounding that followed. It is not the reason the plane has not been certified. However, I am sure it will hold up the process now
 
msp747
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RE: FedEx MD-11Tailstrike In DEN 1/25/13

Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:54 pm

Quoting UALAMT (Reply 30):
I personaly inspected this A/C lastnight and in my opinion it will be scrapped.The aft bulkhead is buckled ,in fact the frame in that entire area are twisted and collapsed. the belly skin is ground completely thru.

Sad to see a rare tri-holer go out like this. As difficult as the plane may be to handle (depending on whom you ask of course), I have always enjoy watching them land. You can spot it a mile away, since it looks so different. I will miss that as more and more of these unique planes give way to the modern birds with only 2 engines on the wing

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