G500
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North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:40 pm

"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Must be all the MD80s and 767s in North American fleets.

Delta, American, and Aeromexico operate lots of MD80s and 767s...

USAirways' 757s are very old too

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/north...planes-kcVxcivFTiGz2B7nYMzBGw.html

[Edited 2013-01-25 15:44:08]
 
Viscount724
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:51 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).
 
G500
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).

you do understand that I'm quoting the journalist from the video right?
 
Viscount724
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).

you do understand that I'm quoting the journalist from the video right?

I was only commenting on the relationship of aircraft age to safety, as that's usually the point most people try to make when talking about older aircraft.
 
KC135Hydraulics
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:37 am

I fly on 50 year old aircraft regularly and have never once felt unsafe. Age isn't indicative of safety as someone else mentioned.
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tharanga
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:02 am

but if the cabin isn't refreshed and revamped from time to time, the old plane will be less comfortable.
 
airtechy
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:12 am

What determines the ultimate end life.....ignoring mandated life limits...of an airplane. All the mechanical parts can be replaced, cockpits upgraded, interiors changed, and engines swapped. I would presume that corrosion of the airframe would be one issue...sealing of the fuel tanks maybe.

Jim
 
DTWLAX
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:01 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
I was only commenting on the relationship of aircraft age to safety, as that's usually the point most people try to make when talking about older aircraft.

Not necessarily. Older aircrafts can be uncomfortable if the interiors are not refreshed. Old worn out seats do not leave a good impression on the passenger.
 
RussianJet
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:10 am

OK, please don't flame, but is it really true that aircraft age is absolutely unrelated to safety? That is to say, I fully understand well-maintained older aircraft to be safe, but I merely pose the question about how well-maintained new aircraft compare to well-maintained older ones. I ask with no expectation or bias, other than to obtain some kind of statistically valid answer.
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YVRLTN
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:18 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa

The fleet is several magnitudes larger too. The top African airlines (ET, KQ, SA, MS etc) do indeed have modern fleets, but although they are pretty small compared to US carriers, it will still sway the average fleet age significantly on the continent. Lots of national or "major" airlines have a total fleet of just a handful of aircraft.
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a380900
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:20 am

What I don't get is that Airbus and Boeing are selling their products based on performance. How can old metal compete with brand new models? I don't doubt that these airlines are run competently. Are new Boeings and Airbuses not so good after all? I don't get it.
 
G500
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:22 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
OK, please don't flame, but is it really true that aircraft age is absolutely unrelated to safety? That is to say, I fully understand well-maintained older aircraft to be safe, but I merely pose the question about how well-maintained new aircraft compare to well-maintained older ones. I ask with no expectation or bias, other than to obtain some kind of statistically valid answer.

If they're well maintained (to Western Standards), and flown by a reputable airline, I feel as safe in a MD80,DC9,or 737-200 as I do in a new 737-900 or A319..

Actually I'd love to fly in a DC10 again.. i really want to do that
 
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:24 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
Aircraft age is unrelated to safety. Compare the safety record of North American airlines with Africa (and almost everywhere else in the world).

However, aircraft age does have a strong correlation to fuel efficiency.

All these old gas guzzlers are hurting our environment.
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United1
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Actually I'd love to fly in a DC10 again.. i really want to do that

Just one left...I think Biman Bangladesh has the last active passenger DC-10 on the planet.

There are a couple of other options.... I can't tell you how many times I ended up on a KC-10 flying somewhere to do something  
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tonymctigue
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:30 am

Quoting a380900 (Reply 10):
What I don't get is that Airbus and Boeing are selling their products based on performance. How can old metal compete with brand new models? I don't doubt that these airlines are run competently. Are new Boeings and Airbuses not so good after all? I don't get it.

I don't think there is any doubt that the latest A & B generation of aircraft are much better and more efficient than their older counterparts. Without being an economics expert, I would guess that it works out cheaper and is better for cashflow to fly around 20 year old airplanes that have long since been paid for even if they burn a little more fuel than it is to run up massive debts in this world of restricted credit availability to buy the newest generation of aircraft. Add to this the fact that unlike the likes of the L1011/DC10/DC8 (many of the last operators of these types ditched them because there were so few of them left), there are still plenty of B757s, B767s and MD-80s in active service, meaning that there is no shortage of spare parts and support systems to keep them operating.

Long story short, it works out cheaper to spend a little more on gas and spare parts than it is to run up massive debts to buy new planes.
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GSPFlyer
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:02 am

Fleet size seems to correlate with age. Everyone knows that most of the time, airlines must wait years from ordering a new aircraft to receive it. We also know that North American carriers are larger than most others. I did a little research, and came up with the following numbers. (Numbers don't include regional airlines/subsidies)

Airline.....Fleet Size.......Avg. Age (years)

North America
DL...........722..................16.4
UA..........707..................13.4
AA..........605...................14.8
WN.........585...................11.6
US..........348..................12.5
AC..........330...................12.5

Europe
LH...........306...................12.6
BA..........256....................13
AF...........253...................10
KL..........115....................9.6
IB............95....................9.7

Asia
NH...........170...................11.1
KE...........149...................9.5
CX............135...................10

Australia/New Zealand
QF............135...................10.4
NZ.............50.....................9.8
 
bohica
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting airtechy (Reply 6):
What determines the ultimate end life.....ignoring mandated life limits...of an airplane. All the mechanical parts can be replaced, cockpits upgraded, interiors changed, and engines swapped. I would presume that corrosion of the airframe would be one issue...sealing of the fuel tanks maybe.

Money. The airplane will age to the point where is is not economically feasible to keep it flying anymore. Every part can be swapped to keep an older airplane flying, but as the plane gets older, it becomes more maintenance intensive as well as using more fuel than newer aircraft. Every airline is different when it comes to determining when a given airplane is due to be retired.
 
AussieItaliano
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:40 am

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):

North America
DL...........722..................16.4
UA..........707..................13.4
AA..........605...................14.8
WN.........585...................11.6
US..........348..................12.5
AC..........330...................12.5

Europe
LH...........306...................12.6
BA..........256....................13
AF...........253...................10
KL..........115....................9.6
IB............95....................9.7

That's amazing to think that WN has a fleet larger than LH and BA combined! I realise that LH and BA operate aircraft with many more seats than the 737, but still, that is amazing that a US carrier that doesn't operate outside of North America has a fleet larger than 2 carriers combined, each of which has a well-developed worldwide network.

Which I think is exactly the point. While North American carriers are renewing their fleets, and for the most part, they are constantly taking delivery of new planes, they cannot do so at a pace to have a brand new fleet every 10-15 years, simply because their fleets are massive. Wait until FR and U2 have been operating on the same scale for over 30 years, and you'll see their fleets age as well without being able to be replaced straightaway.

In addition, the early 2000s saw a huge decline in air travel in the USA (most of North America's air traffic) in response to the 2001 terrorist attacks, leading most airlines to suspend or even cancel deliveries of new aircraft. UA, US, DL, and NW (now part of DL) all went through bankruptcy during this time (AC did as well). So, in essence, North American carriers were not in a position to take delivery of entire fleets of new airplanes.
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PanHAM
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:04 am

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):
LH...........306...................12.6
BA..........256....................13

These figures are wrong, even before LH phased out a larger number of 735/733/744s last year as well as phasing out complete all Avro/HS146 jets the average was at 11.2 or so.

It should now be aroiund 10, or even under 10 years in average.

More 744s will leave this year as will 737s and new A320 and 5x 748 will join the fleet and reeduce the average.

LH and Regional hjas a total of 403 aircraft, if OS and LX are added the total makes 572
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seahawk
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:35 am

The huge advantage of those old planes is that there is no capital expenditure. Those planes are paid for. It means you can even have the luxury of parking one of those as a fleet reserve at your hub and use it if another plane has a technical.
 
G500
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:54 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 21):

Correct these old planes have no capital expenditure, but higher fuel and maintenance costs. It evens out at the end
 
N14AZ
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:46 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Must be all the MD80s and 767s in North American fleets.

Delta, American, and Aeromexico operate lots of MD80s and 767s...

USAirways' 757s are very old too

From an aviation enthusiast's point of view - and this is a forum for aviation enthusiasts, correct? - this is actually not too bad. I am writing these lines from China and I can tell you, all the airports here, the big ones as well as all the provincial ones - are so boring. Only 738s and A 320s. I am even no longer looking out of the window during take-off and landing, in opposite to landing in Miami, where I typically freak out while watching all these rarities in the maintenance area.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
These figures are wrong

Well, let's say they are not up to date. However, it shows a trend and I find it very interesting.
 
b2319
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 23):
I am writing these lines from China and I can tell you, all the airports here, the big ones as well as all the provincial ones - are so boring. Only 738s and A 320s.

My last two flights have been Airbus A300s between SHA and SZX.

Please look at the daily variety of aircraft between PEK and SHA/PVG: A319/A320/A321/A332/A333/A343/B733/B73G/B738/B744/B772

But let's not let the facts get in the way of a good argument, eh?

Regards

B-2319
 
Context
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
OK, please don't flame, but is it really true that aircraft age is absolutely unrelated to safety? That is to say, I fully understand well-maintained older aircraft to be safe, but I merely pose the question about how well-maintained new aircraft compare to well-maintained older ones. I ask with no expectation or bias, other than to obtain some kind of statistically valid answer.

I too would like to see a strictly statistical analysis. We all have our opinions of what's comfortable or which planes seem to have the most MX delay but anyone know where we could get some hard numbers for this?
 
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mayor
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
"the average fleet age in North America is higher than Africa"..... ouch

Better to have a well maintained, older fleet than a poorly maintained, newer fleet, I would think.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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cosyr
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
OK, please don't flame, but is it really true that aircraft age is absolutely unrelated to safety? That is to say, I fully understand well-maintained older aircraft to be safe, but I merely pose the question about how well-maintained new aircraft compare to well-maintained older ones. I ask with no expectation or bias, other than to obtain some kind of statistically valid answer.

I accept what you are saying. Everything can be maintained and refreshed and an old airplane can be as safe as a new one, but a new one doesn't have age related issues that have to be fixed. TWA flight 800 caused by dry brittle wiring, allowing a current to jump from a high voltage line to a low voltage line. That is something that could have been prevented by catching that spot in the wire and replacing it, but it involves checking thousands of miles of wiring! A new aircraft doesn't require that check, and if there were a problem with a wire, it would be more isolated and easier to spot. I have full faith in the maintenance crews in the US, and I am excited to fly on older aircraft, not scared, but age does effect things.
 
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boeingrulz
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:39 pm

One of the reasons that there are some companies that can dramatically replace their fleets with new airplanes is that money is cheap right now and interest bearing investments are not an attractive option. Those airlines who have not gone through bankruptcy have access to the cheapest debt and capital investments are a no-brainer. How many North American airlines have not gone through bankruptcy?
 
bogota
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 28):
Better to have a well maintained, older fleet than a poorly maintained, newer fleet, I would think.

And even better to have newer well maintained fleets.

From an enthusiast point of view seeing the newer generation of vintage aircraft all over US airports is a delight but as business traveller point of view travelling through the US has lost a lot of its charm. Old airports with boring architecture for the most part, old planes that look old regardless of how well maintained they are, very low quality service with very exceptions to the norm, huge queues and ill tempered staff in lots of places and horrible uniform standards.

The truth is that when I was a kid the US had huge airlines with new planes, fantastic looking airports (relative to the rest of the world) and fantastic customer experiences to tell about. Things went fast down the drain post 9/11 (understandably) but it is time for you guys to stop being apologetic about your industry and demanding what the US was famous for 20 years ago, fantastic customer service and customer experiences.

Just some feedback, so do not flame me for it.
 
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GSPFlyer
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
These figures are wrong, even before LH phased out a larger number of 735/733/744s last year as well as phasing out complete all Avro/HS146 jets the average was at 11.2 or so.

This is my source for the information;

http://airsafe.com/events/airlines/fleetage.htm
 
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mayor
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 31):
about your industry and demanding what the US was famous for 20 years ago, fantastic customer service and customer experiences.

Are the passengers willing to pay for it?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
PanHAM
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:05 pm

The current active 23 747s have an average age of 12,26 years, not 14,6

just to mention one. The fleet does not contain the LH regional jets which further reduces the average. The remaining 39 737s will be gradually replaced by A32x and so on.
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bogota
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 33):
Are the passengers willing to pay for it?

I do not seem to recall US airfares cheaper than the rest of the world.
 
Flighty
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:13 pm

Our market is competitive. The market does not allow big spending for aircraft that don't provide a direct financial return.

Other countries need to worry about (1) capability and (2) reputation, when they use old aircraft. In the US, maintenance is a given. Passengers are ok with the idea of flying a 30 year old aircraft and they accept it as equivalent (or actually superior to) a 3 day old aircraft.

Everybody is free to try the counterexample. Go ahead and buy A320s and start an airline. Won't be easy to pay the bills in this competitive environment.

[Edited 2013-01-26 09:20:50]
 
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mayor
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 35):
I do not seem to recall US airfares cheaper than the rest of the world.

But they probably cheaper, here, than they used to be, when inflation is figured in. To get the kind of service (which the U.S. carriers are more than willing to provide) that they want, ticket prices will have to go up.

On the other hand, it's difficult to buy a shiny new a/c everytime that the customers want a new experience. As an example, how much is DL investing in refurbishing a/c and improving the experience? I believe it's about $2billion.......on top of that there are new (or nearly new) a/c coming into the fleet in the next couple of years. If an a/c is refurbished on the inside and maintained properly, overall, the people sitting inside aren't going to know the age of the a/c or even care about it.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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mayor
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

Makes you wonder what happens with this theory when DL, WN, UA and AA start to take delivery of all the a/c they have on order........  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:42 pm

Quoting a380900 (Reply 10):
Are new Boeings and Airbuses not so good after all? I don't get it.

They are, but at the same time the old airplanes have been fully paid for long time ago and they are now only making money for the airline (minus necessary maintenance of course).
That being said I still find it hard to comprehend that there are countless "vintage" DC9s or 762s being used by major airlines while fairly young 736s and A318s have been already scrapped.

The article is an attempt for cheap sensationalism. They should do a follow-up piece though.... North America: World's Oldest Flight Attendants.   
 
bogota
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
Our market is competitive. The market does not allow big spending for aircraft that don't provide a direct financial return.

Not as much then, if the market allows for lower quality service and no company can change that trend it is not a competitive market.

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):
To get the kind of service (which the U.S. carriers are more than willing to provide) that they want, ticket prices will have to go up.

Maybe the large US carriers should ask Virgin America or even Jet Blue how to compete with a different and better customer experience. Again, do not flame me for it, this is just feed back. I tend to see so many apologetic answers about the state of US aviation that it saddens me. It was the US aviation that made me a fan of aviation in general and since I have to travel constantly to your country I would love to have the same customer experience that I have in Europe or Asia, and I simply do not.
 
bogota
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 39):
They should do a follow-up piece though.... North America: World's Oldest Flight Attendants.

That could be true, but on the other hand they are the nicest people you run into when you fly in the US. When I see a mature person in my cabin I get excited about it. They smile, they are warm and charming.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 38):
Makes you wonder what happens with this theory when DL, WN, UA and AA start to take delivery of all the a/c they have on order........

Just AA riding themselves of the MD-80 and DL replacing DC-9s with 717s will skew the numbers quite a bit.
With the immanent 'fast retirement' of 757s, it will be a quick fleet switch.

Quoting a380900 (Reply 10):
What I don't get is that Airbus and Boeing are selling their products based on performance. How can old metal compete with brand new models?

Up to $35/bbl, easy. But at today's oil prices, they do not. It has been more of an ability to finance new aircraft. This is one reason AA is in BK. One of many I admit...

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 12):
All these old gas guzzlers are hurting our environment.

Aircraft burn about 2% of the oil. I think there are far worse concerns out there. Namely the spike in coal burning. That puts far more nasties into the air than jet fuel.

Lightsaber
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mayor
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 40):
Virgin America

Maybe Virgin America should ask the legacies how to be profitable......  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
bogota
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 43):
Maybe Virgin America should ask the legacies how to be profitable......

Especially AA... anyhow if the service you get is what you are actually expecting then I guess then again they are doing what that market wants. It may not be anything to rave about, but as I understand from the defensive answers that is as good as the customers are wanting it to be.
 
tan1mill
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:15 pm

If a plane from the 50's is still flying, I feel that's a testament to how safe it really is.
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okie73
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:19 pm

None of the airlines in the U.S. receive government subsidies. That is a big factor.
 
RussianJet
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
If they're well maintained (to Western Standards), and flown by a reputable airline, I feel as safe in a MD80,DC9,or 737-200 as I do in a new 737-900 or A319..

As do I, absolutely, but that really wasn't the point of my question.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 29):
I accept what you are saying

Not saying, asking. I am making no assertion of any kind.

Quoting cosyr (Reply 29):
. I have full faith in the maintenance crews in the US, and I am excited to fly on older aircraft, not scared, but age does effect things.

Sure thing. But still, I would be interested to know what the stats were, assuming that all other factors such as good maintenance etc were equal.
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LN-KGL
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting okie73 (Reply 47):
None of the airlines in the U.S. receive government subsidies. That is a big factor.

Since you have said A, now you have to start listing airlines that receive government subsidies. I suggest you start with one of the airlines with the lowest fleet age - Ryanair (305 x Boeing 737-800 - average age 4.3 years).
 
xaapb
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
and Aeromexico operate lots of MD80s and 767s...

IIRC AM dosen't operate any MD80 anymore, all of them had been replace with 737NG, as for the 767 they have according to planespotter 7 767s: 5 767-200 and 2 767-300

Greetings.
Jorge Meneses
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting bogota (Reply 27):
The truth is that when I was a kid the US had huge airlines with new planes, fantastic looking airports (relative to the rest of the world) and fantastic customer experiences to tell about. Things went fast down the drain post 9/11 (understandably) but it is time for you guys to stop being apologetic about your industry and demanding what the US was famous for 20 years ago, fantastic customer service and customer experiences.

I'm not sure how long ago you were a kid, but in the 90s (since you're referring to US airlines from 20 years ago, I'll pick that time), airlines were flying ancient airplanes.

UA still had DC-8s flying past 1990 (from what I can find, DL just barely got rid of theirs before 1990). A few carriers (not just NW) were still flying DC-9s from the 60s. Every major airline was flying 727s into the late 1990s (I can't remember off the top of my head which of the surviving majors was first to retire their fleet, but for most of them I think it was after 9/11). DC-10s, L-1011s and 747-100s and -200s were still flying past the year 2000.

I don't have exact numbers, but it wouldn't surprise me if US airlines' fleets today are, on average, newer than they were in the mid 1990s. If not, then once you factor out the DL DC-9s and some of the oldest 757s still hanging around (for which replacements are on order), the age will drop quite a bit.

I can't comment too much on airports, because I honestly don't pay attention to them very much (and I don't travel internationally much at all, other than to Canada, having been to Europe only twice). As for customer service, it seemed that airlines had just as bad of a reputation back then as they do today. Of course, it's hard to compare because you didn't have as big of an internet community back then to comment on every facet of everything going on, so sources of information were limited. I do remember airline food often being ridiculed as the worst stuff you could possibly ever eat. Guess they took care of that problem.

Otherwise, you can just point to economics to explain why the industry has evolved the way it did (I guess that makes me an apologist?).
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word, and doesn't even make sense.
 
gigneil
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:45 pm

Quoting tharanga (Reply 5):
but if the cabin isn't refreshed and revamped from time to time, the old plane will be less comfortable.

I dunno. A lot of those older seats are much, much more comfortable.

Quoting bogota (Reply 36):
Maybe the large US carriers should ask Virgin America or even Jet Blue how to compete with a different and better customer experience

That's the thing, Virgin can't compete. They cannot charge enough more for their service to create a profitable enterprise.

We know the product is great, but it is addressing a market that's insufficiently large to sustain the airline.

NS
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting gigneil (Reply 47):
That's the thing, Virgin can't compete. They cannot charge enough more for their service to create a profitable enterprise.

What about JetBlue, can they compete? Their product seems to be quite similar to VX.

[Edited 2013-01-26 16:05:16]
 
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mayor
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RE: North America, "world's Oldest Airplanes"

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:05 am

As for flying to be "better" in the good old days, here's a quote from the Air Transport Association:



"A round-trip coach ticket between New York and Los Angeles was $208 in 1958, according to the Air Transport Association. You can still sometimes find a $208 ticket today, but that 1958 price is $1,570 in today’s dollars."
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen

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