Max Q
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Air NZ And The DC10

Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:10 am

To follow from the 747 Classic thread did Air NZ ever fly their DC10's non stop to or from LAX ?
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eta unknown
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:50 am

DC-10's didn't have the range.

There were a multitude of routings, usually twice daily:
AKL-HNL-LAX daily (continued on to LHR as a BA flight)

plus:
AKL-PPT-LAX
AKL-NAN-LAX
AKL-NAN-HNL-LAX
I'm sure APW (and PPG before APW's runway was extended), TBU, and RAR may have been operated too in some shape or form.to LAX.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:58 am

I really thought the Air New Zealand livery on a DC-10 was beautiful!


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Photo © John Krepp Photography
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Photo © Wolodymir Nelowkin



... and of course a rare interior shot too!

It's a shame the aircraft were withdrawn from service so quickly - once their aircraft crashed in Antarctica (along with other DC-10 issues) they ordered 747s and the DC-10s were gone within a couple of years.

[Edited 2013-01-27 03:00:24]
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:01 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 2):
It's a shame the aircraft were withdrawn from service so quickly - once their aircraft crashed in Antarctica (along with other DC-10 issues) they ordered 747s and the DC-10s were gone within a couple of years.

Although these accidents may have had an impact on their decision, NZ wanted more capacity and they were interested by the DC-10 Super 60. But since work on it was put on hold following the ORD crash, they went for the B747-200.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...60.html?search=Air%20New%20Zealand
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 3):
NZ wanted more capacity and they were interested by the DC-10 Super 60. But since work on it was put on hold following the ORD crash, they went for the B747-200.

Oh, brilliant referencing there - I had no idea that there was even a concept for a DC-10 Super 60!

I liked the - "ANZ cited a 22-23 per cent advantage in seatmile DOC enjoyed by the 747 over the DC-10." ... assuming DOC is Direct Operating Cost, that is pretty interesting indeed.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:25 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 4):
I had no idea that there was even a concept for a DC-10 Super 60!

Yep, it was conceived just like for the DC-8. Super 61, 62 & 63. NZ would have had the Series 62.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...79%20-%201087.html?search=DC-10-60
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:13 pm

Since the topic here is Air NZ DC-10s, why not add these two nice video's links:

http://youtu.be/lDi7qUEQZ80

http://youtu.be/8egAqlVMquE   
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 1):
DC-10's didn't have the range.

.
CP operated the DC-10-30 YVR-HKG nonstop as did UA SEA-HKG (using DC-10s leased from CP), almost the same distance as LAX-AKL. Those aircraft were known as DC-10-30ER with an extra fuel tank in the cargo compartment. NZ could presumably have done the same, but as already mentioned, the DC-10 had become too small.

LAX-AKL 5652 nm
SEA-HKG 5648 nm
YVR-HKG 5555 nm
 
Max Q
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:14 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 6):
s:

Since the topic here is Air NZ DC-10s, why not add these two nice video's links:

Great clips, the -10 looked great in their livery.


Love those '70's widebodies, and narrowbodies, best looking and DISTINCTIVE.


You could look up to see anything fly over in those days and instantly know what it was.


These days you look up and it's 'just another twin'
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:54 am

the 742 was actually too big for Air NZ, but there was nothing else available to replace the DC-10's at the time.

I remember those awful yellow/blue/geen seat covers (see DC-10 pic above) that were also installed on the 747- it looked terrible.
 
Gasman
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:34 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 2):
I really thought the Air New Zealand livery on a DC-10 was beautiful

Agree with you there. The teal & white colouring on the trijet has not been equaled in NZ's fleet either before or since, in my opinion.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 2):
It's a shame the aircraft were withdrawn from service so quickly - once their aircraft crashed in Antarctica (along with other DC-10 issues) they ordered 747s and the DC-10s were gone within a couple of years.

It is often assumed that the Erebus crash was the reason Air NZ "re-imaged" itself with the 747; however the plan to phase out the DC-10s had been made many years before.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 2):
... and of course a rare interior shot too!

The interior in Y class was a very pleasant place to be. This is an aircraft not much narrower than a 777. They entered service with Air NZ in an eight abreast 2-4-2 config. They were later downgraded to 9 abreast in 2-5-2, which was pretty grim for the person in the middle seat of the centre block; but flying on them was still a very agreeable experience - far better than 3-4-3 on the 77W as is the situation today.
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:01 am

Quoting gasman (Reply 10):
Agree with you there. The teal & white colouring on the trijet has not been equaled in NZ's fleet either before or since, in my opinion.

I wonder, was teal chosen as a color as an homage to NZ's origins as TEAL? (Tasman Empire Airways Ltd.)
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:52 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
CP operated the DC-10-30 YVR-HKG nonstop as did UA SEA-HKG (using DC-10s leased from CP), almost the same distance as LAX-AKL. Those aircraft were known as DC-10-30ER with an extra fuel tank in the cargo compartment. NZ could presumably have done the same, but as already mentioned, the DC-10 had become too small.

The Extended Range option was either added later (beginning in 1982) to airframes built in 1979/80/81 (AY, CP, SR, UA) or to new airframe from 1982 (SR, TG), all equipped with the newer version of the CF6 (-50C2), a higher possible MTOW, and new wing fillets forward of the wings. The DC-10 NZ operated were built between 1973 and 1977 and lacked all the above, at least without major investments on them.

[Edited 2013-01-28 02:55:17]
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:18 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 5):
Yep, it was conceived just like for the DC-8. Super 61, 62 & 63. NZ would have had the Series 62.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...10-60

Interesting stuff - I never knew there was that concept - so that was interesting to read! Thanks for linking that!

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 6):
Since the topic here is Air NZ DC-10s, why not add these two nice video's links:

http://youtu.be/lDi7qUEQZ80

http://youtu.be/8egAqlVMquE

Pretty gorgeous videos if the truth be told!!
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
vv701
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:57 am

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 1):
AKL-HNL-LAX daily (continued on to LHR as a BA flight)

Although NZ's DC-10s sid not have the legs to operate AKL-LAX non-stop the reason why they then operated LAX-LHR on behalf of BA was because BA's L-1011s did not have the legs to operate LAX-LHR non-stop and the BA 704 service on this route was being murdered by PA's and TW's wide bodies.
 
n729pa
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:24 pm

I don't know if I dreamt this or not, but didn't NZ or TE as it was fly DFW-LHR from AKL at some point? I don't know if it was when the 747s come along or not, but I seem to have an abiding memory of TE001/2 doing LHR-DFW-HNL-AKL back in the days when they only flew 3x a week. I might have imagined it.

Incidentally love the blue/green livery 100 times better than the current sterile scheme.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting n729pa (Reply 15):
I don't know if I dreamt this or not, but didn't NZ or TE as it was fly DFW-LHR from AKL at some point? I don't know if it was when the 747s come along or not, but I seem to have an abiding memory of TE001/2 doing LHR-DFW-HNL-AKL

That was in fact AKL-PPT-DFW-LGW from October 28, 1987 until March 28, 1989.
 
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deltacto
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting n729pa (Reply 15):
I don't know if I dreamt this or not, but didn't NZ or TE as it was fly DFW-LHR from AKL at some point? I don't know if it was when the 747s come along or not, but I seem to have an abiding memory of TE001/2 doing LHR-DFW-HNL-AKL back in the days when they only flew 3x a week. I might have imagined it.
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 16):
That was in fact AKL-PPT-DFW-LGW from October 28, 1987 until March 28, 1989.

Exactly right
Note NZ's only flight thru DFW was AKL-PPT-DFW-LGW

There was no flight from LGW to DFW or from DFW to PPT/AKL

Quote:
Inaugural Auckland-Dallas/Forth Worth service calls enroute at Papeete
and terminates in London. The return southbound service stops at Los
Angeles and Papeete southbound.
http://static.airnewzealand.com/assets/PDFs/history.pdf
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 14):
Quoting eta unknown (Reply 1):
AKL-HNL-LAX daily (continued on to LHR as a BA flight)

Although NZ's DC-10s sid not have the legs to operate AKL-LAX non-stop the reason why they then operated LAX-LHR on behalf of BA was because BA's L-1011s did not have the legs to operate LAX-LHR non-stop

Why didn't BA put the 747-100 on LAX-LHR to compete with Pan Am and TWA's 747-100s? That was one of PA's and TW's earliest 747 routes soon after the 747 went into service.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:41 pm

BA LHR-SFO & LHR-LAX were 747-200 territory. The 747-100 sneaked into LAX a few times, but I think there were some weight penalties.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:54 pm

From this previous thread:

Air New Zealand DC-10 Routes? (by Jackbr May 27 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Quote:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 1):
As mentioned, BA sometimes used an NZ DC-10s on other North Atlantic routes. I remember seeing one at Montreal Mirabel (YMX) once operating BA's flight to LHR.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/caribb/8377862473/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/caribb/8397437366/in/photostream/

Quote:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
I have the vague recollection that at one point, to add to the confusion, Natonal Airlines ( NA ) leased in an NZ aircraft as well and that this sometimes appeared at LHR as part of their MIA-LHR service. Can anyone provide confirmation of this, or am I having a senior moment ?
Quote:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
Checked a couple of fleet lists and there's no reference to any ex-NZ DC-10s operated by National, unless it may have been a one-shot wet-lease etc.

Anyone see that '85' on the nose below the white line ?


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Photo © John Kelly



ZK-NZS was fleet number '85' with National Airlines during summer 1979.

http://www.taxiways.de/DC-10/D10operator/National.html
 
vv701
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:30 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
Why didn't BA put the 747-100 on LAX-LHR to compete with Pan Am and TWA's 747-100s?

BA signed an agreement with NZ that started at the beginning of May 1975. It ran for a period of four years until the end of April 1979. BA used the NZ DC-10s rather than their own 741s because the passenger loads did not initially justify the use of a larger aircraft and their 741s, like their L-1011s did not have the range to operate LHR-LAX non stop with a full load. Note here that the great circle distance of this route is 5,456 miles. A-net quote the range of a 741 with 385 passengers as 10 per cent below this distance at only 4.880 miles.

The BA/NZ agreement called for the aircraft operating the daily AKL-HNL-LAX (TE001) flight to be transferred to BA at LAX to operate the LAX-LHR-LAX (BA598/99) rotation now flown by a BA crew. On returning to LAX the aircraft would be returned to NZ and would operate LAX-HNL-AKL (TE002).

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 20):
As mentioned, BA sometimes used an NZ DC-10s on other North Atlantic routes. I remember seeing one at Montreal Mirabel (YMX) once operating BA's flight to LHR.

By the beginning of the Summer 1978 Season BA's traffic on the LAX route had grown. They had also taken delivery of their first 742 that had sufficient range to operate LHR-LAX non-stop in July of the previous year. So they operated their 742s on Days 1 through 5 on this route starting at the end of March 1978. But BA continued to operate the NZ DC-10s on the LAX route on Days 6 and 7. During the week two of the DC-10s were retained by BA (increasing the size of the lease from NZ). These two aircraft were used to operate a rotation between LHR and MIA on every weekday as well as a three-times weekly rotation on weekdays between LHR and YMX. When they operated the weekend LAX flights the aircraft were returned to NZ in exchange for the two aircraft that arrived in LAX on Day 6 and Day 7 after completing the AKL-HNL-LAX NZ (TE) flight.

The agreement between BA and NZ was not renewed when it expired at the end of April 1979.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 21):
Note here that the great circle distance of this route is 5,456 miles. A-net quote the range of a 741 with 385 passengers as 10 per cent below this distance at only 4.880 miles.

Pan Am and TWA used their earliest 747-100s on LAX-LHR and SFO-LHR for many years And BA's original 741 configuration only had around 350 seats. I expect the 741s may have had some payload limitations, especially westbound, in terms of cargo but they could certainly carry a full passenger and baggage load LHR-LAX. I flew both PA and TW 741s on LHR-West Coast routes many times and they often had close to full passenger loads.
 
babaero
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:30 am

Interesting video. DC10-30 with CLG stowed in first take off shot,
 
n729pa
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RE: Air NZ And The DC10

Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:44 am

Thanks deltacto and SpaceshipDC10 for the Dallas info (sorry I meant LGW..I've got use to seeing them at LHR these days). I'd forgotten about PPT too, thanks again the memory is coming back now!