ei737ng
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Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:13 am

Does Boeing have any future plans to make convert any first build 747-8's not taken by the ordering airline to become Dreamlifters?
 
rwessel
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:17 am

While nothing is impossible, I don't think there are that many early frames that are available, now that it appears that homes have been found for some of the early Atlas birds.

The biggest problem with doing a 748-LCF would be cost - you'd have to design and certify a major new design, *and* buy an expensive new airplane (yes, Boeing already may own the frame, but they're currently expecting to sell it). The 744-LCF design and certification are already done, and plenty of cheap airframes are available for conversion should Boeing need more. Nor are the LCFs racking up hours in any huge hurry, and they're not really being worn out, so any actual need for doing a 748-LCF is many years down the road. Even a slightly overweight 748-F will likely find a customer, even if it needs a bit of a discount.

OTOH, a dozen years from now, Boeing may need to start considering something to replace the 744-LCFs.
 
finnishway
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:09 am

It is interesting that there are quite much demand for outsize cargo operations and most of them are operated by Russian airlines with Il-76 or An-124. Why doesn't Boeing offer civil version of the C-17?
I remember reading that there hasn't been demand enough, but I think that situation has changed.

Nowadays it seems there is much more need for cargo aircraft than there is production. If cargo airline wants additional aircraft fast they need to buy used aircraft or lease one. Ordering new cargo aircraft from Boeing or Airbus probably means years of waiting.
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:39 pm

Quoting ei737ng (Thread starter):
Does Boeing have any future plans to make convert any first build 747-8's not taken by the ordering airline to become Dreamlifters?

At least two of the Atlas Air NTU's have already new owners - Saudi Arabian Cargo. Take a look in the #11 747-8 production thread.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 2):
Why doesn't Boeing offer civil version of the C-17?

They did at one point but I think they wanted a rediculous amount of money for it.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
columba
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 2):
It is interesting that there are quite much demand for outsize cargo operations and most of them are operated by Russian airlines with Il-76 or An-124.

It is a niche market, not many planes needed. Also keep in mind that after the fall of the Soviet Union these planes were available for a nickel and a dime (roughly speaking). Building a new aircraft just to fill that niche is too expensive.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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Stitch
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 2):
Why doesn't Boeing offer civil version of the C-17?

Both McD and Boeing offered it, but the operating costs are extremely high since it is based on a military airframe.

It's much the same with the An-124. There are only 28 in service with civilian operators (with another 10 on order).
 
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Aesma
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:45 pm

I expect the current dreamlifters to last as long as the 787 will be made.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
columba
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
I expect the current dreamlifters to last as long as the 787 will be made.

Or fly as long as the Super Guppies did  
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
rwessel
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:16 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
I expect the current dreamlifters to last as long as the 787 will be made.

Thinking about this, I have to agree. Each 787 requires what, four LCF deliveries? Giving us about eight cycles and roughly 36 flight hours per 787? Assuming 3000 787s get built, that would be 24,000 cycles and 108,000 hours spread across the four LCFs now in existence. Those numbers would barely wear out *one* 747, although perhaps the limits for an LCF are lower. Of course those airframe were not new when they were converted to LCFs.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting rwessel (Reply 9):
Each 787 requires what, four LCF deliveries?

Five, I think:
-One to deliver wings to final assembly
-One to deliver nose to final assembly
-One to deliver center fuselage to final assembly
-One to deliver empennage to final assembly
-One to deliver center wing box to the ex-Global Aeronautica plant for integration into the center fuselage

It's that last one that usually gets missed, since it never goes to a final assembly site.

Tom.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 2):
It is interesting that there are quite much demand for outsize cargo operations and most of them are operated by Russian airlines with Il-76 or An-124. Why doesn't Boeing offer civil version of the C-17?

Because the vast majority of IL-76 and An-124 are surplus aircraft available dirt cheap.

There is no way to sell a new aircraft as cheap as one 10-20 years old. And labor costs for the very few latest builds put the cost of those new IL-76 / An-124 at about 1/2 the cost of a C-17.
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting finnishway (Reply 2):
Why doesn't Boeing offer civil version of the C-17?
I remember reading that there hasn't been demand enough, but I think that situation has changed.

The C17 isn't in the scale of things that large, it is of course a supremely efficient military transport, but in weight terms only a medium sized transport with a payload half that of the A124, on that basis its use for outsize cargo is limited, an A124 can always replace a C17, but not the other way round.

As to a 747-8 dreamlifter, at present there's plenty of half lifed 744's available for which all the development work for the conversion has been carried out and certified, if Boeing need more lift capability they can buy some 2nd hand airframes and end up with planes with at least 20 years service ahead of them. A 747-8 variant would require additional design and ceftification work and only provide a small capability increase
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:05 pm

What about the 787-10--isn't the tube too long for the dreamlifter--assuming they don't build all of those in CHS?
 
rwessel
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 13):
What about the 787-10--isn't the tube too long for the dreamlifter--assuming they don't build all of those in CHS?

As near as I can tell, the longest parts on the -8 and -9 are the wings. Not sure about the -10 (obviously, since Boeing hasn’t decided how long it’s going to be yet), but it might depend on where the put the plugs. But I’m sure if it’s an issue, it’s been taken into account. I’m sure there’s someone at Boeing whose job it is to make sure the can actually “get the new airplane out of the garage”.

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 10):
Five, I think:
-One to deliver wings to final assembly
-One to deliver nose to final assembly
-One to deliver center fuselage to final assembly
-One to deliver empennage to final assembly
-One to deliver center wing box to the ex-Global Aeronautica plant for integration into the center fuselage

It's that last one that usually gets missed, since it never goes to a final assembly site.

Thanks. The planes built in CHS would require one less flight, then. And it looks like they could get two forward fuselages in one LCF without too much trouble, if they were so inclined.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:10 am

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 12):
an A124 can always replace a C17, but not the other way round.

That's assuming you have adequate runway for an An-124. I think the C-17 has considerably better short/unimproved runway performance.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 13):
What about the 787-10--isn't the tube too long for the dreamlifter--assuming they don't build all of those in CHS?

There's no particular reason that all the addition length needs to go on the center section...if they add it to the nose or tail they've got tons of room in the Dreamlifter.

Tom.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:17 am

only way I see a 748 based dreamlifter is if they move some of the 777x supply chain airborne and need much higher capacity.

I still doubt we will see one for 15-20 years when Boeing should be looking at a "all new" plane larger than the 787.
 
HBGDS
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:04 am

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 3):
Why doesn't Boeing offer civil version of the C-17?
I remember reading that there hasn't been demand enough, but I think that situation has changed.

They did indeed offer it, but as MCD. In 1995 at the Paris Air Show, the hostesses were handing out stickers for the "MD-18," the civilian counterpart to the C-17. WIth the Boeing take-over, that all disappeared, but the project was there. I still have that sticker somewhere in my mess.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting HBGDS (Reply 17):
They did indeed offer it, but as MCD. In 1995 at the Paris Air Show, the hostesses were handing out stickers for the "MD-18," the civilian counterpart to the C-17. WIth the Boeing take-over, that all disappeared, but the project was there.

When Boeing took over McD, they continued to try and sell a commercial version as the BC-17X.
 
studedave
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:34 pm

Here's a (dumb?) question or two~

Could Boeing (or anyone else with an older '47) re-engine them with the new engines of the -8F/I?

Would the swap gain anything?





StudeDave
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Possibility Of 747-8 Dreamlifter?

Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 19):
Could Boeing (or anyone else with an older '47) re-engine them with the new engines of the -8F/I?

Would the swap gain anything?

yes, it would gain them lower fuel burn, but the cost to do so even in the easier to certify relm the dreamlifters operate in... They would never pay back the costs in the aircrafts lifetime.