Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:44 pm

The talks between the Unions and IB about the re-structuring plans are in a dead end.
The six Unions announced no less than five days of strike during the second half of February.

Link in Spanish for now.

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1359717363_272546.html


Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
durangomac
Posts: 357
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:18 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:15 pm

I think unions have their place but in the airline industry I think they no longerbelong. Actions like this are in my opinion what dooms a company.
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:57 pm

So, you live in a country that:

1) Economically is a basketcase
2) Pollitically, is as corrupt as has seldom been seen anywhere
3) Is bankrupt
4) Qualified people are emmigrating in a massive scale (Mexico has received over 35,000 Spanish citizens in the last 2 years, to the point we´ve had to change our immigration laws) And it´s architects, engineers, economists, financiers, not waiters or drug dealers. They are young too
5) Has over 25% unemployment

And your employer tells you:

1) We´ll be firing 23% of the workforce, 4,500 people (and we know that with the new laws in Spain you get nothing when fired)
2) We´ll be reducing 15% capacity
3) And oh, by the way, we´ve created an LCC where you pilots we´ll be making 50% of what you currently make, with more flying hours.

Are you supposed to take all of this with a smile and thank your employer? What sane union wouldn´t try to get a better deal?

Add to that the really bad job IAG is making in the PR department by not forcefully eliminating the rumors that BA is screwing IB and you get this:

CONFRONTATION

And the passengers are screwed. But, frankly, if I were living in a country in the conditions Spain is in now, I would thank my unions. Furthermore, It´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict and is betting the Spanish will tire of IB and see its employees as spoiled brats. That would happen in more prosperous economic times but not now.

It´s not just the employees that are screwing IB.
 
anstar
Posts: 2864
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
t´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict

It seemed to work for him at BA
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:09 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 7):
It seemed to work for him at BA

True. But remind me when was the UK in the position Spain is in now?
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Are you supposed to take all of this with a smile and thank your employer? What sane union wouldn´t try to get a better deal?

The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 9):
The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.

I agree. But Spain and the Spanish are at a point when losing your job means real dire straits. And no possibility of working for at least three years. In short, they have nothing to loose. So they don´t really give a crap wether IB disappears or not. I agree that striking is in general counterproductive, but under the circumstances of IB workers it´s really not. IAG needs to get this. Unless what they really want is to let IB die. Which is what I suspect, by the way.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 464
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:22 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 9):
The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.

As the employees found out at Eastern.
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:25 pm

IAG is not leading by conflict. The unions have been given the chance to negotiate and SEPLA in particular has been confrontational for over a year. It's sad when it has come to this but IAG has been very clear that 31 January was a hard deadline and that "Plan B" will be pursued if the unions strike.

If the unions strike I would not be surprised if the strikers are locked out.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 3225
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
The six Unions announced no less than five days of strike during the second half of February.

Is this five separate days, very disruptive, or 5 continuous days, you can plan around it?
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 13):
Is this five separate days, very disruptive, or 5 continuous days, you can plan around it?

It´s five separate days. Dates to be announced later by the unions.
 
mfc
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:08 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
1) Economically is a basketcase
2) Pollitically, is as corrupt as has seldom been seen anywhere
3) Is bankrupt

The economy situation is really bad, but in a year is expected to improve. I think that corruption is a very serious problem in Spain, but it is not that common. There a lot of countries that have a lot more corruption, i.e. Mexico, with no offense.
Finally, Spain is NOT in bankruptcy, the country has not even been rescued yet and it is not expected to be.

Back to this thread, I think that both management and unions are to blame, and if things don't get any better soon they will ending in closing down Iberia.
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
bluesky73
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:36 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:03 pm

Hopefully both can sort this out for the good of the airline, both employer and employee as not having an IB will be a loss to both parties and to European aviation history.

Unions aren't always for the good of staff but not sure what Spanish unions are like?

As mentioned before IB needs to tone and get fit and that inforunately means short term pain, hopefully long term gain.
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 7):
As the employees found out at Eastern.

You can add PU to that list, and there are some others for sure. IIRC PU had more than 900 workers for a fleet of 11 CRJ9... They never expected a "lefty" government will choose to close the airline instead of keeping a bleeding airline, and then crashed against the reality...let's hope the IB workers can be more realistic in their demands...

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
Gonzalo
Topic Author
Posts: 1526
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:46 pm

Information about this subject in English can be found here :

http://atwonline.com/operations-main...alks-fail-strike-action-looms-0131

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
Summa767
Posts: 1751
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:30 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
Back to this thread, I think that both management and unions are to blame, and if things don't get any better soon they will ending in closing down Iberia.

Oh well, at least IAG have Vueling that can do the same job as IB, but much more efficiently.
I am sure they would be quite happy to get into the long haul too, if need be.
 
PRAirbus
Posts: 687
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:59 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:24 am

The employees will sink IB!  . No, no, no!!!!
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:41 am

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
The economy situation is really bad, but in a year is expected to improve.

Really? How strange. Both your government and the IMF have been panicking seeing how Spain´s economy will behave in 2013. Just a heads up: "Continued destruction of employment", "Another year of recession"

http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1342784004_152133.html
http://economia.elpais.com/economia/.../actualidad/1343400827_935244.html

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
I think that corruption is a very serious problem in Spain, but it is not that common. There a lot of countries that have a lot more corruption, i.e. Mexico, with no offense.

While Mexico has been the pet boy of corruption scandals and a reference, things have changed. Corruption in Spain and Greece has outshone us for the past 5 years at least.

You don´t think so? Think Bárcenas, Urdangarín, Gurtel, Garzón´s inhabilitation, Ana Mato, Cospedal´s and her family members, the Madrid Arena Deaths, etc. etc. No offense. But really, a 30 million Euro fortune and a 33,000 hectare agro industrial exploitation in Argentina are telling.

Add to that the darkish ways Spain has engaged in privatizing different industries. Specially your wonderful "Heath System" which in Spain it´s being curtailed to the point people are dying of preventable diseases. Not to mention emergencies. Oh wait, emergencies don´t exist in Spain, since your government is closing many ER´s for "lack of use". No offense.

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/.../actualidad/1359751226_077767.html
http://politica.elpais.com/politica/.../actualidad/1359740934_577829.html
http://politica.elpais.com/politica/.../actualidad/1359752870_121146.html

Quoting mfc (Reply 11):
Spain is NOT in bankruptcy, the country has not even been rescued yet and it is not expected to be.

Yeah...Well, you might want to have a discussion about that with:

1) My UX friend, who has ended up flying with CM as FO, being a 737NG captain back in Spain (He did not leave willingly)
2) My homeless friends in Madrid
3) MAD, which has lately looked pretty dirty due to its sanitation personnell being on strike
4) The newly arrived qualified immigrants in Mexico from Spain
5) BANKIA

Back to the thread. IB as such will not survive. But it has to find a way for its unions to work hand in hand with management. i dontt´hink it´s in the interest of IAG to have the IB brand disappear. Radicalization is not the answer.

[Edited 2013-02-01 23:46:39]
 
mfc
Posts: 331
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:08 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:21 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 17):
Yeah...Well, you might want to have a discussion about that with:

1) My UX friend, who has ended up flying with CM as FO, being a 737NG captain back in Spain (He did not leave willingly)
2) My homeless friends in Madrid
3) MAD, which has lately looked pretty dirty due to its sanitation personnell being on strike
4) The newly arrived qualified immigrants in Mexico from Spain
5) BANKIA

Airline pilots' situation in Europe is not good, there are a lot of them and no jobs for everyone. Middle East airlines, many Asian carriers and South American airlines hire European pilots.

I live in Madrid and I don't know any homeless, sure there are a lot, but not as much as in New York City or San Francisco.

Sanitation personeel problem at MAD has been solved, there is no strike anymore and MAD now looks spotless. That kind of strike can occur regardless the economic situation as they were re-negociating their contracts.

Ok, Bankia is a shame, but what about Santander or BBVA? Oh, we can also talk about Movistar, Repsol, Inditex...
So, we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1699
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:18 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
It´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict and is betting the Spanish will tire of IB and see its employees as spoiled brats.

Mr Walsh loves confrontation...........he deliberately provokes fights between staff and mgmt rather than try to find a mutually agreed solution. Even when the unions offer a compromise he pushes them over the edge.
He did it in Aer Lingus, he did it in BA, looks like he is now doing it in IAG.
 
BlueShamu330s
Posts: 2565
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2001 3:11 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:23 am

BASSA offered a compromise...???

Please, don't turn this thread into a comedy sketch.  

Rgds
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 9:28 am

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 19):
Mr Walsh loves confrontation...........he deliberately provokes fights between staff and mgmt rather than try to find a mutually agreed solution. Even when the unions offer a compromise he pushes them over the edge.
He did it in Aer Lingus, he did it in BA, looks like he is now doing it in IAG.

Well, as I´ve written before. The IAG case is different as the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays. And given the political situation in Spain these days, nothing is certain.

Rajoy is being asked to resign. I don´t think he will agree to have IB killed by IAG. He´s clutching at straws lately and the loss of IB can be the final one. He is not going to risk it.

Mr. Walsh should be wise to see these things. No matter what worked for him before in other carriers.
 
User avatar
autothrust
Posts: 1455
Joined: Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:54 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:03 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
Pollitically, is as corrupt as has seldom been seen anywhere
3) Is bankrupt
4) Qualified people are emmigrating in a massive scale (Mexico has received over 35,000 Spanish citizens in the last 2 years, to the point we´ve had to change our immigration laws) And it´s architects, engineers, economists, financiers, not waiters or drug dealers. They are young too
5) Has over 25% unemployment

Nonsense, there are far more corruption in other contry's like Portugal, Italy, Poland etc..

The myth about Spain being bankrupt is really annoying, even more country's like Germany have more debts then Spain.
The BANKS are bankrupt not the country that's a HUGE difference!!

The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.

About the Iberia Strike i don't really see how it is gonna help them.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
sweair
Posts: 1816
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:59 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:49 am

Now that Eu has tried saving every ailing too big to fail its time to let corporations go down with no help. Clean the system, hope IB is just the first example. SK needs to get flushed too IMO.
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:51 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 3):

He always has done, that's his way. His way or no way, but I always knew tackling the Spanish workers would be difficult for him.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 3377
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:02 am

Such a strike is just going to enforce people´s opinion that Iberia is one of the European carriers that is not a good idea to book, just like Alitalia. Unreliable with bad service and unfriendly personal. And do not get me wrong I love Iberia, I have 4 flights booked with them this summer, but I can tell you that the travel agent looked quite shocked, when I decided to fly with Iberia via Madrid instead of LH via FRA,

Iberia needs to be restructured but it won´t work if the employees do not go along. If the friendliness and service does not improve Iberia will fail. Not saying all employees at Iberia are unfriendly, but some of the cabin crews showed a service standard that you would never see with BA or LH.
 
User avatar
EK413
Posts: 4328
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:11 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:14 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
The talks between the Unions and IB about the re-structuring plans are in a dead end.
The six Unions announced no less than five days of strike during the second half of February.

On the 5th day of strikes there won't be a job to fight for since the airline would've seized flying and belly up...

Great way to fight for job security... Honestly, I understand unions fight for better conditions but in this case the airline has no chance of surviving if a 5 day strike goes ahead...

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
TYCOON
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:22 am

Although not necessarily condoning the strike action of Iberia employees nor am I a particular fan of the airline (I have flown them 41 times and they rank 8th in frequency out of the 159 airlines that I have flown), I can't allow some very strange and incorrect statements about Spain to be left uncorrected, such as

AR385:
While Mexico has been the pet boy of corruption scandals and a reference, things have changed. Corruption in Spain and Greece has outshone us for the past 5 years at least.

Really???? According to the latest report of the least to most corrupt nations in the world (Transparency.org 2012 report), it wasn't even close. Spain ranked 30th out of 174 countries and Mexico 105th... To even suggest that corruption is worse in Spain than is Mexico is rocambolesque to say the least (Greece by the way ranked 94th).

Although the situation in Spain is critical, the government is not near to bankruptcy (in fact govt debt as a percentage of GDP is lower than in the UK, USA or France for instance, you just need to check the stats). The country will still be in recession for most of 2013 but the situation is stabilizing with exports picking up and job loss slowing (even one of the articles AR385 attached in Spanish states this). Most economists now believe the country is bottoming out, and some regions namely Pais Vasco, Navarra, have never entered a recession.

So let's keep the debate intelligent and informed... not full of tabloid stats that are meaningless and statements (such as the corruption one) that are just plain ridiculous.

BTW, I am an economist by training.
 
TYCOON
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:37 am

Oh, and Portugal, Poland and Italy ranked respectively 33rd, 41st and 72nd in this 2012 report... still nowhere near Mexico's corruption level.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:03 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 19):
Mr Walsh loves confrontation...........he deliberately provokes fights between staff and mgmt rather than try to find a mutually agreed solution. Even when the unions offer a compromise he pushes them over the edge.
He did it in Aer Lingus, he did it in BA, looks like he is now doing it in IAG.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. And wrong again.

A huge amount of structural change was achieved during his time at BA without confrontation with the unions:

a) A major overhaul of ground staff working practices prior to the move to Terminal 5.

b) Significant changes to the terms of the company's pension funds including changes to retirement ages and contributions

c) Cost and productivity savings amongst pilots, ground staff and engineers during the great financial crisis

If you actually check your facts, the only exception was cabin crew and you can see from uncontested court evidence that the cabin crew union did not at any time negotiate with the company in good faith and thought if they stonewalled the company BA would leave them alone. They never offered anything as a compromise.

Willie Walsh does not provoke confrontation. He is a businessman that knows that the airline is there to deliver a return to investors and decisions have to be made on the basis of cold hard facts.
 
alphaomega
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:26 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:40 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.

Haha oh...well thanks to the illegal jobs everything is good.

IB needs to go through what almost every other carrier has gone through in the last 10 years, and the same bickering with the unions and threats of strikes will continue just as it has in the past. The only difference will be if they make it out or not - I'm betting they will, but it will be a tough year for them as an airline. Happy to see the new A330s coming on-line, maybe getting rid of the A340s will help, but they've had financial issues for years so we'll see. As much as I hate unions, they won't be responsible for sinking the airline if it doesn't work out. Their demise may have been set in motion a while back.
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:03 pm

In my opinion, the time for IB has been and gone unfortunately. Employees of IB need to wake up to the fact that the airline needs to trim down and get healthy. Yes, it will be a painful process, much like it was for BA and many other carriers - but it's a much more attractive prospect to the alternative.

Like it or not, IAG and WW will most CERTAINLY win-out and press ahead with the proposed changes. The Spanish unions are no match for them. BASSA couldn't stop him after all.

I actually think the best option for IAG is to go ahead with the proposed major overhaul and I would not be too sad to see the IB brand disappear. Years of sub-par product, poor customer service and reviews have blighted to company for so long that I don't think their reputation can ever be built up. We may see a Spanish Airways being born, or Vueling become the nations flag carrier with long-haul service.

Either way, this needs to happen and ASAP or there will be nothing left to save, sadly.
 
LJ
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 1999 8:28 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:03 pm

UX will be pleased if IB employees go on strike. Again more pax flying UX at higher fares.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):

Well, as I´ve written before. The IAG case is different as the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays. And given the political situation in Spain these days, nothing is certain.

I agree plus the fact that Spain isn't the UK. If IB goes bankrupt they don't have a job and may get another one at the airline which picks up the slack left by IB. However this would mean lower wages. If they agree to the wage cuts, they get lower wages as well. Thus, why not strike to prevent the wage cuts? It makes even more sense if the employees don't see a future in IB regardless whether they make a sarcifice or not.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The BANKS are bankrupt not the country that's a HUGE difference!!

Basically, the banks aren't even bankrupt (if so they wouldn't be around). However, usually the country of residence bails out its own banks (like we see here in The Netherlands). In Spain the banks are bailed out by the EFSF, which basically means that Spain does not have the cash to do it themselves (of which one can debate if this means close to bankruptcy or not).

Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.

Which is one of the problems. The people working in this environment don't pay taxes but do use the facilities of the government.

Quoting alphaomega (Reply 30):
As much as I hate unions, they won't be responsible for sinking the airline if it doesn't work out. Their demise may have been set in motion a while back.

The most sensible comment in each strike vs no strike debate here on Anet. A strike can be the last straw (we've seen this at Sabena), but the root cause of the problems leading to the demise of a company are usually bad management decisions in the past and/or the inability or unwillingness to adapt to a changing environment. Does this jsutify a strike to perserve the current situation? No, but it surely explains why employees react to "sacrifices". In the end, those who brought the company in this situation either already left the company or don't feel much of the pain as the ordinary workers.
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:06 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 29):

Maybe so but he has caused confrontation with the staff, ie scabs, volunteer crew ect ect and bully boy management, which has filtered into nearly every department.
The man is as cunning as a fox.
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1699
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:12 pm

Quoting autothrust (Reply 22):
The 25% unemployment rate is sure worrysome, however it does not represent the reality. Many jobs are illegal employment, so if you add that jobs the unemployment rate is not that high.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
The IAG case is different as the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays. And given the political situation in Spain these days, nothing is certain.
Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
Great way to fight for job security... Honestly, I understand unions fight for better conditions but in this case the airline has no chance of surviving if a 5 day strike goes ahead...

I think the issue here is that the IB workers are scared of what the future holds for them.....lots of Spaniards feel the same. They are thinking emotionally. Yes this strike could bring down the airline...but perhaps they are thinking we will lose anyway so lets make a gamble.

I'm not condoning their actions, just trying to figure out why they are doing what I think is an irrational move. I think there are many ways to disrupt an airline without actually going on strike.

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 29):
Willie Walsh does not provoke confrontation.

Ever have a drink with him on an overnight.........the crew's he worked with knew to just agree with whatever he said.....made the couple of beers more relaxing.

I do take your point on the BA cabin crew issue....I had thought that BASSA had offered a compromise in that situation. Obviously I am incorrect in that.

I will say that in my experience WW tries to provoke an emotional response from the other side in order to allow him to get the upper hand by remaining rational and hardline.
 
FCAFLYBOY
Posts: 560
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:03 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:13 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 33):

I disagree with that. He did what needed to be done, and it upset a lot of staff, naturally. He had to make some hard decisions that I'm sure were very difficult but absolutely essential and now BA is seeing the many benefits of this.

IB staff will face some very challenging months ahead, but this is their only hope and deep down , I suspect they all know it.

[Edited 2013-02-02 05:15:15]

[Edited 2013-02-02 05:18:30]
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:17 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 34):

I really couldn't imagine any crew sitting having a beer with him ha ha..
He is not very well regarded by any staff, most recently by LGW ramp staff whom I am sure they would love to take him out for a beer or two....
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 35):

That's fair enough what he did but BA were not in any way the position IB are today. I think all Walsh wanted at the time to just contract the whole lot out and just keep pilots and managers.So far he has done a pretty good job of it.
Look after your employees, and they will look after your airline as the late lord King once said.
Now it's shaft your staff, make as much money for the shareholder and pay managers very large bonuses.

I am not just saying this happens at BA, it is happening all over the UK, most large corporations, banks included are doing this, it very much "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer"

It is a sad situation the country is in , but for these large companies they have managed to use this as an excuse.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 2:03 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 33):

The fact that you used such a disgustingly offensive word that deserves to stay in the 1970s says everything.

The idea for the Volunteer Cabin Crew programme actually came from the flight operations department not the board of BA.

As for making as much money for the shareholders, perhaps you'd like to tell us when BA/IAG shareholders last received a dividend?

[Edited 2013-02-02 06:07:04]
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 38):

What? " bully boy management"? Well come on, he has brought that style with. Fair enough the shareholder may not be getting a dividend at the movement, but are you telling me managers are not getting big bonuses??

As for disgustingly "offensive" words I have used none such with. If what you, which I think you are referring too ie, Scab, it is actually deemed not an offensive word.
I will give you a definition.

Scab, Employee who 1 continues to work during strike action at the place of work
2 Accepts work where strike action is going on
3 Takes work in a non union shop or
4 under none union conditions where a union is trying to organise
A unit.Also called a black leg.

Scab , a crust which is formed over a cut or wound during healing.

Can you please tell me where I have used an offensive word, words in the last post? I have double checked but I cannot seem to see.

Rgds
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1699
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 36):
I really couldn't imagine any crew sitting having a beer with him ha ha..

Remember he was once an operational pilot many moons ago.....

....in fact Willie's flight career was saving by Unions at the time not allowing EI to lay off their cadets.....instead they were given Flight Ops positions until flying roles became available. (Can't remember the exact deal but it was along those lines)
He was also a member of the EI pilots union leadership at one point......very much a poacher turned gamekeeper.
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:22 pm

Quoting EagleBoy (Reply 40):

EagleBoy you couldn't have said it better.A friend of mine and his co workers fixed a minor fault on his Futura 737 once and I believe he gave them all a "carry off" but yeah you are spot on with the poacher, game keeper scenario.
 
rtfm
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat Oct 09, 2004 5:35 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 39):
but are you telling me managers are not getting big bonuses??

How would you define 'big'........?
 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:27 pm

Quoting RTFM (Reply 42):

You tell me?
 
r2rho
Posts: 2439
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
It´s starting to look that Mr. Walsh is leading by conflict and is betting the Spanish will tire of IB and see its employees as spoiled brats.

It's a reasonable bet. IB's unions have made countless selfish and senseless strikes in the past and have a very bad reputation among Spaniards.

This time however, for the first time in ages, they are 100% right at striking and their action is fully justified. But will public opinion understand that this time? It's like the fable of the boy who cried wolf. And Walsh is betting that this conflict will end like the fable.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
the really bad job IAG is making in the PR department by not forcefully eliminating the rumors that BA is screwing IB

Indeed. If the "BA wants to destroy IB" rumors are just conspiracy theories, and I hope they are, why is IAG management not doing anything to counter them, thus leaving room for doubt?

Quoting AR385 (Reply 2):
It´s not just the employees that are screwing IB.

  

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 5):
The trouble being, by fighting for a better deal you might take the whole house down with you.

It's a gamble they are willing to take, because, as others have said, they have nothing to lose. Furthermore, they have no hope in IB's future viability under the proposed plan; they do not feel that making a sacrifice today will help the airline in the future, which they view as doomed either way.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 21):
the IB employees have really nothing to loose. It´s the same for them if IB disappears or if it stays

Exactly. If IB disappears, they will either face long unemployment or find a job at a much lower wage at another airline. If IB survives under the proposed plan, they will either be fired and face long unemployment or keep their job at a much lower wage at IB. The outcome is the same for them.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 6):
they have nothing to loose. So they don´t really give a crap wether IB disappears or not. I agree that striking is in general counterproductive, but under the circumstances of IB workers it´s really not. IAG needs to get this. Unless what they really want is to let IB die. Which is what I suspect, by the way.

  
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 39):
What? " bully boy management"? Well come on, he has brought that style with. Fair enough the shareholder may not be getting a dividend at the movement, but are you telling me managers are not getting big bonuses??

As for disgustingly "offensive" words I have used none such with.

The dictionary definition of scab may not be offensive, but it is generally viewed as an offensive word and does serve to highlight some of the unreconstructed attitudes in some parts of BA.

I don't know of any big management bonuses. And if you look at executive pay generally in BA and IAG it's certainly not excessive compared to other FTSE 100 companies.

By many accounts Willie Walsh is no pussycat but he wasn't recruited to win any popularity contests. Unfortunately, BA had tried Mr Nice Guy (Rod Eddington) and he had two wildcat strikes by ground staff on his watch and he barely scratched the surface of restructuring BA. The aviation industry is brutally competitive and there are plenty of airlines setting out to grab BA's share of the UK market. Management can't ignore cold hard reality in the hope it will go away.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 44):
Indeed. If the "BA wants to destroy IB" rumors are just conspiracy theories, and I hope they are, why is IAG management not doing anything to counter them, thus leaving room for doubt?

IAG has rebutted the claims that it is investing in BA at the expense of Iberia.

If IAG wants to destroy Iberia why, pray tell, is it receiving new aircraft with new cabins, refurbishing aircraft, carrying out numerous initiatives to improve its operations and customer experience at Madrid?
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:32 pm

 
shuttle9juliet
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:12 pm

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 45):

Fair enough comment, I do not take things personally and as other posters have said about you, it's everybody's opinion on here not just your own.

We cannot all agree on everything.
Anyway moving on!
 
toobz
Posts: 631
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:33 am

RE: IB Unions Announce "no Less Than 5 Days Of Strike"

Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:26 pm

What a nightmare this must be for BA...I have a feeling it would be the same if AF were to buy AZ out. nothing good will come from that..

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: a320fan, Alexa [Bot], alomar, Amwest2United, audidudi, Baidu [Spider], Block40Osan, cheeken, czbbflier, DOHspotter, FAST Enterprise [Crawler], klwright69, mpj, nikeherc, NZdsgnr, reidar76, TaniTaniwha, TheF15Ace, usflyer msp, Viscount724 and 270 guests