sptv
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Unusual LAX Approach

Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:03 pm

I've flown into LAX hundreds of times as it is my home airport and I work out of town. Never had an approach like this before. Coming in from YVR, right over the top of LAX then south of downtown, looping back around to the north and landing on 25L. Anyone ever experience this, or know what might have caused this unusual landing pattern? (When we landed, the FA said medical personal would be coming on board to help a passenger, though it clearly was not an emergency, because they let everyone deplane before paramedics arrived. Not sure if this would have contributed to the unusual landing.)




http://flightaware.com/live/flight/A...2/history/20130202/0225Z/CYVR/KLAX
unusual LAX landing 2/1/13
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting sptv (Thread starter):
Anyone ever experience this,

I've done that landing many times coming in from the north, doesn't seem that unusual to me at all.
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phxa340
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:13 pm

Agreed with Aerowesty, in fact coming in from SFO or OAK thats the approach we did most of the times ...
 
tzadik
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:22 pm

I see freighters doing it a lot as they all park on the south complex. Wouldn't call it standard practice but if the traffic flow is right you'll definitely see it on occasion.
 
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NZ107
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:45 pm

Just like the departures to the northeast use an opposite pattern when departing 25R.
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san747
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:10 am

I saw an AF A380 do that approach last week too, I had never seen it before. Thanks for the explanation!
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meister808
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:53 am

Although the standard flow (from my experience) for a north arrival sequenced into the south complex arrivals would tend to be an extended right downwind with a base turn through the north complex final, this is certainly used as well, especially during times of heavy traffic from the northeast (RIIVR arrival, etc) that makes it inconvenient to send a northwest arrival (KIMMO, SADDE, SYMON arrivals, etc) through final to the south side.
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FlyHossD
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:30 am

No, not that unusual. IIRC, my last LAX arrival was the same.
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timpdx
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:40 am

I was driving to LGB one week ago and on the 710 freeway saw a plane (guess was an A330 class) headed due north, most flights loop south over downtown and make their final approach to the west. I have never, ever seen this before and LAX is my home airport and flown in and out of there like a hundred times. One time with a medical emergency late at night we approached LAX from the ocean side landing on 24L or R while other flights were taking off in the usual westward direction from 25L/R. Weird, but I guess that reverse pattern is run late at night. Anyways, never seen your approach pattern ever, its always the same, run roughly parallel to the Santa Monica mountains, make the 180 turn at downtown or further east and enter the pattern to approach LAX.
 
caleb1
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:35 am

I also agree that this is not a common approach at LAX. I have seen it on occasion, but it is not common at all.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:40 am

Quoting timpdx (Reply 8):
at night we approached LAX from the ocean side landing on 24L or R while other flights were taking off in the usual westward direction from 25L/R. Weird, but I guess that reverse pattern is run late at night.

That's generally what LAX does after midnight. Approach over the ocean, depart over the ocean too.
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coachclass
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:59 am

My favorite "unusual" landing approach happened only 2 or 3 times in the tons of times I landed at LAX and that was at night flying out over the city and airport to the Pacific to make a nighttime eastward approach. It was really neat to go from the bright lights underneath to the pitch black sea/sky, doing a u-turn and then come in toward the city. I believe that it was Santa Ana winds that caused these unusual deviations.
 
uclax
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:37 am

I agree that the approach described (passing south of the airport and doing a counter-clockwise downwind and base) is much less common than the usual approach for flghts from the north/Asia (clockwise downwind north of the airport and base). Having lived in the area for over 20 years, I'd say that the counterclockwise approach is used by well under 5% of approaches. As mentioned, many of the flights using the less common approach are Asian heavies/freighters.
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PRFlyer
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:48 am

I think what the OP is referring to is the loop on the east side of LAX. That is unusual having flown the route many, many times before. We once landed on 25L from Asia and we did not make a loop before landing. It was just the normal turn by City of Commerce and then aligning to 25L.
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:54 am

He's talking about looping north not south. The standard approach from the north / pacific is from Ventura to Santa Monica over LAX towards downtown and then an extended RIGHT turn that ends up aligning with either the north runways or the south runways. But the picture posted by sptv shows the track going across the approach path into LAX and then a LEFT turn towards downtown and then looping towards the airfield. This in essence is using the southern approach for flights from Mexico or Australis that come in from Long Beach.
 
71Zulu
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:56 am

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 10):
Approach over the ocean, depart over the ocean too.

Can they still do that with the new FAA opposite direction rule?
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737-990
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:00 am

This is not a common approach. Normal flow from the north has you hitting the coastline between Ventura and Malibu and then banking east entering the LA Basin over Santa Monica. From there you almost follow the 10 freeway to downtown and turn south 180 degrees and line up for the runways. I'd bet the medical issue onboard was a factor, perhaps the crew asked ATC for a more direct route that would drop them in on the south side of the airport for a quick taxi to the gate. I've seen some long taxi time recently now that AS moved to T6, I bet this shaved 5-10mins?
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QANTAS747-438
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:19 am

This is a very common approach. It's mainly used for freighters coming from the north or Asia that loop around in order to land on the 25s near the freight ramp.
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aerowrench
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:17 am

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 15):

Can they still do that with the new FAA opposite direction rule?

Yes, the FAA granted the LAX nimbys an exemption.

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 17):
This is a very common approach. It's mainly used for freighters coming from the north or Asia that loop around in order to land on the 25s near the freight ramp.

I wouldn't go so far as to say its "very common," but I would say that its not so unusual that you won't see it if spotting at LAX for a good portion of the day. I would, however, agree that it is mostly used by freighters.

It appears to be a much more direct route (despite the loop) when compared with the Moorpark3 STAR. And the medical urgency on your flight may have been the catalyst for that approach.

Also, isn't AS using the newish constant descent approaches when available?


[Edited 2013-02-03 00:25:01]



[Edited 2013-02-03 00:28:20]

[Edited 2013-02-03 00:29:24]
 
lasairlinerenth
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 9:22 am

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 10):
That's generally what LAX does after midnight. Approach over the ocean, depart over the ocean too.

When I returned from Perth and Brisbane in Australia on December 2nd, 2012, on a Qantas 744, we made the approach over the ocean and touched down on the northside runways (apologies, I didn't catch the exact runway); then we taxied to the TBI terminal in order to disembark. This was right around 6:00AM or shortly thereafter; it was still quite dark outside at that time of the year. I am by no means a frequent traveler through LAX, but this arrival was a treat because I had never been on a plane that landed eastbound there before. Interestingly, several hours later (about 1:00PM or so), my American Airlines flight to my home airport in Las Vegas left terminal 4 and then taxied all the way to the north side of the airport for departure. It seemed to take forever to get to the runways and I'm not at all sure why we were routed that way -- unless it was because of the heavy inversion cloud layer that was holding steady over the field and adjacent areas. What made the north runway (again, I didn't get the actual runway number) departure to the west so odd was that the plane still made a left turn once we were out over the ocean and circled around the city to cross over Mt. Baldy and, eventually, into Southern Nevada; not sure why the plane didn't just turn right over Santa Monica (?) and head to Las Vegas that way. It seemed to me that would've been a faster routing. Then, when we got to Las Vegas, the plane circled all around the city, passing the 25 runways to arrive on the 19s. Having flown all the way from Perth, Western Australia, I was exhausted and just wanted to get home and could not understand why we didn't land on the 25s instead of the 19s since they were, technically, closer. Talk about a circuitous routing. LOL.
 
brilondon
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:32 pm

As you said there was a medical situation an it might have been more to that story than was being told to you and they routed the aircraft on the south side because it looks like it had a priority approach as it did not fly its usual approach and the south runway was the fastest way to get the flight on the ground. It obviously was not a dire emergency but if it turned out to be a serious emergency they would have needed to get to the gate quickly and attend to that emergency.
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aerowrench
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 19):
When I returned from Perth and Brisbane in Australia on December 2nd, 2012, on a Qantas 744, we made the approach over the ocean and touched down on the northside runways (apologies, I didn't catch the exact runway); then we taxied to the TBI terminal in order to disembark. This was right around 6:00AM or shortly thereafter; it was still quite dark outside at that time of the year. I am by no means a frequent traveler through LAX, but this arrival was a treat because I had never been on a plane that landed eastbound there before. Interestingly, several hours later (about 1:00PM or so), my American Airlines flight to my home airport in Las Vegas left terminal 4 and then taxied all the way to the north side of the airport for departure. It seemed to take forever to get to the runways and I'm not at all sure why we were routed that way -- unless it was because of the heavy inversion cloud layer that was holding steady over the field and adjacent areas. What made the north runway (again, I didn't get the actual runway number) departure to the west so odd was that the plane still made a left turn once we were out over the ocean and circled around the city to cross over Mt. Baldy and, eventually, into Southern Nevada; not sure why the plane didn't just turn right over Santa Monica (?) and head to Las Vegas that way. It seemed to me that would've been a faster routing. Then, when we got to Las Vegas, the plane circled all around the city, passing the 25 runways to arrive on the 19s. Having flown all the way from Perth, Western Australia, I was exhausted and just wanted to get home and could not understand why we didn't land on the 25s instead of the 19s since they were, technically, closer. Talk about a circuitous routing. LOL.

0000 to 0600 (in light winds and with a minimum MVFR) LAX is under "suicide ops;" arrivals to the east and departures to the west, with arrivals mostly on the northside and departures on the southside. As for your LAX1 departure, 25R has been under construction for various repairs and whatnot every weekend for the last several months (its been closed for the last three weeks straight) and this shifts more departures to the north complex. Also, it's more common to have a departure to the south from the north complex than it is to witness the arrival this thread is discussing.
 
CalebWilliams
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:13 pm

Found this info from a 2005 Jeppeson chart.

RUNWAY USE NOISE ABATEMENT AND PROCEDURES

1. Between the hours of 12:00 midnight to 06:30 a.m. (2400-0630) all aircraft
approaching Los Angeles Intl Airport shall approach said airport from west
to east.
2. Between the hours of 12:00 midnight to 06:30 a.m. (2400-0630) no aircraft
shall take-off from Los Angeles Intl Airport from west to east.
not certificated in accordance with Part 36 of the Federal Aviation Regulations
3. Between the hours of 12:00 midnight to 06:30 a.m. (2400-0630) all take-offs
shall be made on the inboard runway (25R and 24L) from east to west and all
landings from the west shall be made on runways 7L & 6R.
4. In the event the Federal Aviation Administration determines that there is a
tail wind component exceeds 10 knots
ceiling of 400' AGL or less at the westerly end of the airport, or that the
from the west, or the RVR indicates
less than 2400', on rwy 6 or 7, it may permit all aircraft to land from east
to west.

---

I don't know what, if anything, has changed in the last 7 years.

Source: http://va-transaero.ru/files/charts/KLAX.pdf
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lasairlinerenth
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting Aerowrench (Reply 21):
0000 to 0600 (in light winds and with a minimum MVFR) LAX is under "suicide ops;" arrivals to the east and departures to the west, with arrivals mostly on the northside and departures on the southside. As for your LAX1 departure, 25R has been under construction for various repairs and whatnot every weekend for the last several months (its been closed for the last three weeks straight) and this shifts more departures to the north complex. Also, it's more common to have a departure to the south from the north complex than it is to witness the arrival this thread is discussing.

Thanks for the insight, Aerowrench. It's much appreciated on my part.
 
PHLapproach
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:45 pm

To me it looks like it could be as simple as the 24R Final being over-saturated and really no good spot for him to sequence into the final off the usual downwind off SMO so they cross over the field and give a much shorter final to 25L (which makes even more sense if there was a medical emerg). DTW for instance has "Crossover" procedures right over the field to offload traffic when one side of the final is very heavy.
 
estebs1978
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:00 pm

Not unusual at all. Many times flying from FAT to LAX I have had this landing pattern.
 
studedave
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:47 pm

Here is a (sorta) related question I've always wondered about~

There are signs for jets departing to the West saying they are not supposed to make any turns until after they have past the coast line.

When are jets departing to the East allowed to begin their turns?



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Alias1024
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:02 pm

Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 24):
To me it looks like it could be as simple as the 24R Final being over-saturated and really no good spot for him to sequence into the final off the usual downwind off SMO so they cross over the field and give a much shorter final to 25L (which makes even more sense if there was a medical emerg).

Whenever SoCal has crossed me to the south complex from the north downwind they have used altitude to keep me above the north complex final and just turned me right through the final. Since I fly an RJ, I don't know how common this would be with larger aircraft. Are there wake turbulence rules that would preclude approach from crossing an aircraft from the north across the approach above the traffic on final?
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Unusual LAX Approach

Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 11):

My favorite "unusual" landing approach happened only 2 or 3 times in the tons of times I landed at LAX and that was at night flying out over the city and airport to the Pacific to make a nighttime eastward approach. It was really neat to go from the bright lights underneath to the pitch black sea/sky, doing a u-turn and then come in toward the city. I believe that it was Santa Ana winds that caused these unusual deviations.

No, it wouldn't be winds. This is the approach every night, from 00.00 to about 06.00. It's a NIMBY thing more than anything else. If it were winds, they'd be taking off east too.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 15):
Can they still do that with the new FAA opposite direction rule?

Can and do, yes.

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 19):
departure to the west so odd was that the plane still made a left turn once we were out over the ocean and circled around the city to cross over Mt. Baldy and, eventually, into Southern Nevada; not sure why the plane didn't just turn right over Santa Monica (?) and head to Las Vegas that way.

AFAIK, the left turn over the ocean is to accommodate descending traffic from the north; i.e. Northern California, Pacific Northwest & Asian inbounds. These tend to occupy the airspace that you'd be flying through if you turned right (north). Generally, you're only going to turn north if you're headed to Asia or The Pacific Northwest. But even then, you're a lot further out when that happens, maybe out beyond Ventura or Oxnard. Of course, there are always exceptions ...
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