Australian Aviation Thread # 68

EK413 · Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 149):
I once flew to Tanzania (Kilimanjaro) using the following routing: SYD-HKG-DXB-ADD-MBA-JRO, there were other more direct (albeit a little bit more expensive routings) but chose the one which gave me three different airlines and 2 new airports, Typical A.nutter eh

You hit the nail in the head... It's just another day in an A.netters world...

EK413

QF175 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:24 am

Virgin Australia has just announced it will introduce the A330 on Brisbane-Perth flights from May, with double daily weekday services (0845 and 2015 departures ex-Brisbane).

Furthermore, the Airline has announced it will start 3 daily weekday services to Moranbah from Brisbane from April and will also start Brisbane-Bundaberg services once daily from May. All services will be operated by ATRs.

Interestingly, Virgin Australia has announced it will offer a complimentary food and beverage service on flights over 2hrs 45mins from April and expects to have Wireless IFE rolled out on 80 aircraft by the end of 2013.

RyanairGuru · Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting QF175 (Reply 151):
3 daily weekday services to Moranbah from Brisbane from April

Interesting route choice, clearly to do with mining. I was thinking that 3x daily sounded quite a high frequency, but then I saw that QF operate up to 10 flights per day on BNE-MOV!

eaglefarm4 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:40 am

They now have to wait till the Transport authority deregulates Roma and there will be at least 2-3 flights a day on this route as well for Virgin.

CXfirst · Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:56 am

Quoting QF175 (Reply 151):
Virgin Australia has just announced it will introduce the A330 on Brisbane-Perth flights from May, with double daily weekday services (0845 and 2015 departures ex-Brisbane).

Just trying to figure out how they'll do things.

In May, the 08:45 flight arrives in PER at 12:25 pm, and the 20:15 flight arrives at 23:55.

Around midday, the arriving A330's at PER come in at 11:15 (MEL), 12:25 (BNE), 13:45 (SYD) and 15:15 (MEL). A330 departures are at 12:30 (BNE), 13:30 (MEL), 15:00 (SYD) and 17:00 (MEL). I'd assume first MEL turns around to BNE, BNE turns around to MEL, SYD turns back to SYD and last MEL turns around to MEL. The BNE arrival turning around the MEL is cutting time a bit short (1h5m), that doesn't allow much leeway for delays.

In the evenings PER sees arriving A330's at 19:45 (from MEL), 22:30 (from MEL), 22:30 (from SYD) and now 23:55 (from BNE). Overnight departures leave at 22:40 (BNE), 23:45 (SYD) and 23:59 (MEL). So, I assume the early MEL flight turns around to BNE, the late MEL and the SYD flight turn straight around (or switch between each other), and the BNE arrival stays overnight for the early morning MEL flight.

Anyway, good to see the A330 on PER-BNE, but I thought VA had said all SYD-PER flights would be A330's. So, I expected only one daily A330 to BNE, so that the new A330 could also cover the morning PER-SYD flight, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

-CXfirst

TruemanQLD · Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:27 am

Quoting http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Virgin-Australia-hit-by-first-half-profit-slump-pd20130226-59UKU?OpenDocument&src=hp7:
Virgin Australia Holdings Ltd has declined to provide explicit full-year guidance amid continuing economic uncertainty after posting a decline in interim profit.

In the six months to December 31, Virgin posted a net profit of $23 million, a 56 per cent fall on the previous corresponding period.

The difference was mainly the result of Qantas' industrial dispute in the previous corresponding period, which benefited Virgin.

Virgin also said the carbon tax had a $24.4 million impact on its profit in the six months to December.

Revenue from ordinary activities in the half rose five per cent, year-on-year to $2.1081 billion.

The group has again declined to pay an interim dividend, after not paying one in the second half last year.

Virgin Australia chief executive officer John Borghetti said Virgin had delivered a solid result in what was a difficult operating and economic environment.

The group said that is still expects to post an improved underlying profit before tax in the full year, excluding the impact of Virgin's proposed Skywest Airlines acquisition and Tiger Australia joint venture.

Nothing? NOTHING? I would have thought given how quickly people post bad QF profit that this would already be up. Profit for the ever-conquering, flaw-proof VA is down. But QF is up? How can that be? Surely with QF flawed business plan and VA flaw-proof business plan that this couldnt happen

RyanairGuru · Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:36 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 155):
Profit for the ever-conquering, flaw-proof VA is down. But QF is up? How can that be? Surely with QF flawed business plan and VA flaw-proof business plan that this couldnt happen

Wow, I had completely missed that announcement. I agree with your sentiment.

While it is true that 1H FY11/12 isn't the best comparison given the issues at QF and the subsequent benefit for DJ, these figures are pretty shocking. Revenue up 5% but profit down by 56%. Even more concerning is there refusal to provide full year guidance.

Virgin's strategy is an interesting one: they've launched a fair war on QF's home turf, and QF has shown no intention of even blinking. I guess Borghetti assumed that his lower cost base and QF's issues in other areas would mean that Joyce wouldn't play hard ball for the longterm. Quite the contrary. QF has deeper pockets, and clearly aren't going down without a fight. VA will go down first.

qfvhoqa · Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 155):
Nothing? NOTHING? I would have thought given how quickly people post bad QF profit that this would already be up. Profit for the ever-conquering, flaw-proof VA is down. But QF is up? How can that be? Surely with QF flawed business plan and VA flaw-proof business plan that this couldnt happen

The domestic fare war seems to be hurting QF more so than VA at the moment. QF domestic profit was down $110m, but VA domestic profit was down $37m, probably because QF's fares had further to fall. QF won't go down without a fight, and I think VA may have underestimated QF's response.

Zkpilot · Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 155):

Nothing? NOTHING? I would have thought given how quickly people post bad QF profit that this would already be up. Profit for the ever-conquering, flaw-proof VA is down. But QF is up? How can that be? Surely with QF flawed business plan and VA flaw-proof business plan that this couldnt happen

A lot of VA's money is being invested in significant growth. QF is barely growing domestically and is shrinking internationally (except JQ et al). Were it not for Boeing's 787 payment then the QF group would not have been posting an increased profit.

Sydscott · Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 155):
Profit for the ever-conquering, flaw-proof VA is down. But QF is up? How can that be? Surely with QF flawed business plan and VA flaw-proof business plan that this couldnt happen

What we're seeing is as a result of the capacity way. There has been quite alot of criticism of QF drawing a 65% marketshare line in the sand but for as long as they're determined to do that, and for as long as VA is willing to keep increasing capacity faster than demand which QF is matching, so fares will fall, yields will fall and profits will follow.

I know Borghetti is rolling out his strategy of essentially becoming Qantas mark II, but to me it seems stupid to sacrifice profits and cash flow while they do it. He seems to think that VA needs to compete everywhere, all at once which simply isn't the case.

Having said that, the new route announcements from BNE make sense in terms of the ability to win mining contracts and with bringing competition to Qantas monopoly routes.

EK413 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:52 am

Appears Emirates are bumping capacity on the Sydney route with the QF/EK alliance kicking off in a few weeks...

EK doubling A380 services to SYD effective 02JUL, EK414/415 will be the 2nd A380 daily service.

EK413

Sydscott · Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:28 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 158):
A lot of VA's money is being invested in significant growth

The money invested in growth doesn't necessarily mean declining profits. he reverse should be the case in any normal business. Lets not also forget that this money came from VA shareholders for their growth.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 158):
QF is barely growing domestically and is shrinking internationally (except JQ et al

With the acqusition of network, deliveries of new 738's, 717's and Dash-8's, QF is matching VA's growth in the domestic space. In face they both expect domsetic capacity increase of approximately 5% to 7% for the 2nd half compared to last year. So QF is growing at the same % rate as VA.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 157):
I think VA may have underestimated QF's response.

I think you mean resolve rather than response. The QF response has been clear since day 1, they want 65% marketshare and will do everything to defend that.

mariner · Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 158):
A lot of VA's money is being invested in significant growth.

Capital expenditure is separate from the profit/loss account, although a company can rein in cap-ex to conserve capital.

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 157):
QF won't go down without a fight, and I think VA may have underestimated QF's response.

I think a lot of people underestimated Alan Joyce's resolve. I can't think why - he showed he has iron balls with the grounding.

The two airlines will eventually find a balance.

mariner

EK413 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:42 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 162):
I think a lot of people underestimated Alan Joyce's resolve. I can't think why - he showed he has iron balls with the grounding.

Agreed and agreed! He certainly showed who's boss & who's running the show!

EK413

tullamarine · Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 154):
Profit for the ever-conquering, flaw-proof VA is down. But QF is up? How can that be? Surely with QF flawed business plan and VA flaw-proof business plan that this couldnt happen

I bet they wish they'd ordered the 787. Apparently it is great for the bottom line particularly if you're not flying it yet!!!

Quoting mariner (Reply 162):
I think a lot of people underestimated Alan Joyce's resolve. I can't think why - he showed he has iron balls with the grounding.

I'm not a huge fan of his but admire his tenacity. Having said that, the average tenure of a CEO in an Australian CEO in a Top 200 company is 5 - 7 years. On that basis he needs to firm up his legacy in the next year or so because he would be expected to have moved on or have been moved on within 2 years

mariner · Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:14 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 164):
Having said that, the average tenure of a CEO in an Australian CEO in a Top 200 company is 5 - 7 years.

The highest turnover rate of CEO's in the world. I'm not sure that it is something that Australia should skite about.

mariner

Sydscott · Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:30 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 165):
The highest turnover rate of CEO's in the world. I'm not sure that it is something that Australia should skite about.

In relation to Qantas lets not forget a few things in terms of CEO's;

- James Strong was CEO from 1993 to 2001 - roughly 7 years
- Geoff Dixon was CEO from 2001 to 2008 - roughly 7 years

Alan Joyce has been CEO since 2008. It's now 2013 so realistically he's got a couple of years to go. The other thing is he is only 46 years old. So for a CEO he is still quite young and could last far more years than either Strong or Dixon did. I actually tend to think he will stay on until at least 2015, if not longer to see his vision out. He's certainly got enough good years where he could.

mariner · Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:57 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 166):
I actually tend to think he will stay on until at least 2015, if not longer to see his vision out. He's certainly got enough good years where he could.

I hope he does, or even longer. The problem with the fashion for revolving CEO's is that there can't be a long term vision, or scarcely a long term strategy.

I wonder what News Corporation would be like if Rupert Murdoch had resigned after seven years, just because he'd done his time. The downside is that he's past his sell-by date now, of course, but he's had a spectacular innings and his shareholders have been verrrrry happy.

Or - reverting to airlines - Herb Kelleher at Southwest Airlines, who created one of the world's great airlines, but it took a decade or two.

Or Michael O'Leary at Ryanair. Whatever one things of him or the airline, he has created a money printing machine from a near bankrupt company. But it took a bitty more than seven years.

mariner

RyanairGuru · Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 167):
The problem with the fashion for revolving CEO's is that there can't be a long term vision, or scarcely a long term strategy.

I see where you coming from, to take another example of Gordon Bethune who did 7 or 8 years at CO, turned it from a basket case to a fantastic airline, and then it started decaying almost as soon as he stood down. Of course some of the product downgrade at CO was in response to a general trend across the US airline industry in the 2002-5 period, but I think it is almost certain to say that Bethune would have steered a much smoother merger integration that Smisek, and that the final product would be of a higher standard.

qf002 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:39 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 160):
EK doubling A380 services to SYD effective 02JUL, EK414/415 will be the 2nd A380 daily service.

This is excellent. I'm a little surprised that they chose to upgauge this flight rather than the one via BKK though, as it seems to get pretty empty outside peak periods.

Quoting sydscott (Reply 166):
So for a CEO he is still quite young and could last far more years than either Strong or Dixon did. I actually tend to think he will stay on until at least 2015, if not longer to see his vision out. He's certainly got enough good years where he could.

I agree. Unless he gets a better offer elsewhere (ie heading up a much bigger airline overseas), he's only got a future of sitting on a few Boards to look forward to, which doesn't sound attractive for someone with as much drive/ambition as he appears to have. I reckon he'll stick around till 2020ish.

EK413 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:13 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 169):

Quoting EK413 (Reply 160):
EK doubling A380 services to SYD effective 02JUL, EK414/415 will be the 2nd A380 daily service.

This is excellent. I'm a little surprised that they chose to upgauge this flight rather than the one via BKK though, as it seems to get pretty empty outside peak periods.

So am I... Emirates are well known for the minimal ground time for their aircraft... I would've thought EK418/ EK419 to be up gauged as you already mentioned...
Regardless I'm happy to hear the news & pretty certain the BKK service will eventually receive an A380 considering TG shelved plans to serve the SYD route utilising their A380s...

EK413

mariner · Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:42 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 168):
I see where you coming from, to take another example of Gordon Bethune who did 7 or 8 years at CO, turned it from a basket case to a fantastic airline, and then it started decaying almost as soon as he stood down.

Mr, Bethune didn't actually "stand down" - I mean, he did, but it's more true to say that he was forced out.

It involves another super-ego - David Bonderman, of Texas Pacific Group, a self-made billionaire who was the controlling shareholder at Continental and who had brought Bethune on board as CEO.

Bonderman and Bethune had a highly competitive, even antagonistic relationship and eventually they arrived at a a curious rapprochement - for the good of the airline they would both go.

It's all here in this link and it is an instructive read. on board room politics, sure, but, more importantly, on the kind of egos who run successful businesses:

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...chive/2004/10/18/8188058/index.htm

"Continental's Gordon Bethune turned the airline around, guided it through 9/11, and became a great CEO. Now he's being forced out. How can this be?

It's the result of a standoff between Bethune and Continental's former controlling shareholder, David Bonderman. Having battled off and on for years, the two men finally reached an odd armistice: Bethune agreed to leave Continental if Bonderman would leave the board."

Texas Pacific Group - TPG - might be more familiar to Australians as a partner of Macquarie in the failed Qantas takeover.

It's a small world.

mariner

[Edited 2013-02-26 00:43:05]

EK413 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:59 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 171):
Texas Pacific Group - TPG - might be more familiar to Australians as a partner of Macquarie in the failed Qantas takeover.

Thank god that takeover failed! Who knows the shape QF would be in today OR perhaps the airline would be none existent...

EK413

EK413 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:33 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 143):
Quoting flylonghaul (Reply 130):
2. I noticed in one of the maintenance hangers that there was a QF 737 with large titles painted on the side reading "Bring it on" And what I thought to be boxing gloves on the Roo. I haven't heard anything about it. Any further info?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Coggan

EK413

tullamarine · Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:03 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 172):

Though as a shareholder, I would've received 3 times what my shares are worth today. The one part of AJ's reign I dislike most is that he has overseen a halving of the company's worth sure, it's not all his fault but if the shares had doubled he'd have taken the credit so he also has to wear the downside

SYDSpotter · Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:11 am

Quoting qf002 (Reply 169):
This is excellent. I'm a little surprised that they chose to upgauge this flight rather than the one via BKK though, as it seems to get pretty empty outside peak periods.

But this is just the 6am departure out of SYD though isn't it. The inbound from DXB gets pretty full though doesn't it?

Quoting EK413 (Reply 170):
So am I... Emirates are well known for the minimal ground time for their aircraft... I would've thought EK418/ EK419 to be up gauged as you already mentioned...

Yup will be on the ground for close to 8 hrs in SYD.

EK413 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:19 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 174):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 172):

Though as a shareholder, I would've received 3 times what my shares are worth today. The one part of AJ's reign I dislike most is that he has overseen a halving of the company's worth sure, it's not all his fault but if the shares had doubled he'd have taken the credit so he also has to wear the downside

That makes 2 of us... I was offered top dollar for my shares too BUT I wasn't a fan of the takeover bid... Takes no brainier what was planned...

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 175):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 170):
So am I... Emirates are well known for the minimal ground time for their aircraft... I would've thought EK418/ EK419 to be up gauged as you already mentioned...

Yup will be on the ground for close to 8 hrs in SYD.

I'm curious if the introduction of the double daily A380 service to SYD is in conjunction with the QF/EK Alliance or the delayed introduction of A380 services to PER...?

EK413

zkojq · Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:48 am

Anyone know what VH-VPE is doing in Victorville?

Quoting mariner (Reply 7):
It can only change the game when it's flying - and it ain't.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 6):
VA's experience with the ex-EK A332s has not been a happy one!!

What issues have they had?

EK413 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:58 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 177):
What issues have they had?

The product offerings on the ex-EK A332's is a mix match with NEW product offerings on the VH-XFC,D,XFE...?

EK413

ben175 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:21 pm

What happened to PAL's announcement about PER, DRW and BNE they have been advertising throughout local papers?

eaglefarm4 · Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:01 pm

Still awaiting approval for PER .Starting June now.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 179):

Sydscott · Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 172):
Thank god that takeover failed! Who knows the shape QF would be in today OR perhaps the airline would be none existent...

That's kind of easy to answer surely? Qantas as we know it would be bankrupt, the fleet sold off and Jetstar and the FF business would have been floated off.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 174):
The one part of AJ's reign I dislike most is that he has overseen a halving of the company's worth sure

Depends on your point of view. If you'd bought in at 90 odd cents and sold yesterday you would have made a tidy profit............

tullamarine · Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 181):
Depends on your point of view. If you'd bought in at 90 odd cents and sold yesterday you would have made a tidy profit............

I don't think a CEO could claim success by running this argument. Over the past 5 years QF is in the bottom 20% of ASX listed stocks for shareholder return.

A huge number of QF shareholders, including those that have been loyal since the original float, are sitting on huge capital losses with their QF shares. In addition they have been starved of dividends for 4 years. Claiming that you could have offset this loss by buying at the bottom of the market (assuming you could have known that this was the bottom of the market) is a weak argument.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 177):
What issues have they had?

In the early days, the 2 ex-EK A332s had a number of issues that made them unreliable and required considerable time and expense to get right. The product differentiation issues are ongoing but could be solved by VA if they chose.

mariner · Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:36 am

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 182):
A huge number of QF shareholders, including those that have been loyal since the original float, are sitting on huge capital losses with their QF shares.

Qantas shareholders are far from alone in that - the last few years have decimated many airline share prices around the world.

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 182):
Claiming that you could have offset this loss by buying at the bottom of the market (assuming you could have known that this was the bottom of the market) is a weak argument.

But a true argument. Airline stocks are generally considered a poor long term investment. Trading shares, as Sydscott points out, is a whole other box and dice.

mariner

Sydscott · Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:57 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 183):
Qantas shareholders are far from alone in that - the last few years have decimated many airline share prices around the world.

I'd go further than that and say the last few years have wiped out quite a few airline shareholders, just look at the US airlines, while others have been severely diluted. (Lets take Air New Zealand and Virgin as examples of that)

I'd also point out that shareholders of Virgin who bought in at the float are significantly out of the money as well along with being severely diluted.

But at least QF and VA shareholders still have a business to cling to. I'd rather that, as long term shareholder, with the possibility of recovery than being a Centro or Becton or Babcock & Brown shareholder.

Quoting mariner (Reply 183):
Airline stocks are generally considered a poor long term investment.

Just ask Warren Buffett;

"How do you become a millionaire? Make a billion dollars and then buy an airline"

“The worst sort of business is one that grows rapidly, requires significant capital to engender the growth, and then earns little or no money. Think airlines. Here a durable competitive advantage has proven elusive ever since the days of the Wright Brothers. Indeed, if a farsighted capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk, he would have done his successors a huge favor by shooting Orville down.”

When I read the first part of the second quote I instantly think of Virgin Australia..................

mariner · Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:32 am

Quoting sydscott (Reply 184):
I'd go further than that and say the last few years have wiped out quite a few airline shareholders, just look at the US airlines, while others have been severely diluted. (Lets take Air New Zealand and Virgin as examples of that)

I was thinking of the US airlines in particular. But also the money printing airlines, like Southwest, which used to be considered a "widows and orphans" stock (the safest there is) and is now worth half of what it was at its peak and has been lower. Ryanair - same story.

I guess the classic is US Airways. In 2000 United offer the airline $60 a share in a merger deal but the DOJ knocked it back. And then 9/11 happened. US Airways went Chapter 11 twice, wiping out the shareholders each time, and was finally bought by the very much smaller America West - which itself has narrowly avoided Chapter 11 post 9/11.

Now we have this thread:

America West Now The World's Largest Airline? (by sankaps Feb 25 2013 in Civil Aviation)

If you have an affection for your money, avoid airlines, certainly long-term. If you have an affection for an airline, go for it - and write that money off.

mariner

flylonghaul · Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:38 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 173):
Quoting EK413 (Reply 143):Quoting flylonghaul (Reply 130):2. I noticed in one of the maintenance hangers that there was a QF 737 with large titles painted on the side reading "Bring it on" And what I thought to be boxing gloves on the Roo. I haven't heard anything about it. Any further info?View Large View MediumPhoto © Andrew CogganEK413

Thanks for posting. Looks good.

Funny that I thought it had been blue writing. Must have been the lack of sleep!

Quokkas · Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:35 am

Just in time for the Labour Day public holiday, Perth Airport’s new $120 million Domestic Terminal (Terminal 2) will open this Saturday (2 March 2013).

Construction commenced in September 2011, featuring a very large apron with up to 18 stands and parking for up to 36 aircraft, it is the first new terminal to be built at Perth Airport for 26 years.

Located alongside the current International Terminal (Terminal 1) it will serve Alliance Airlines and Skywest when it opens on, with Tiger Airways moving in during May 2013.

This will significantly reduce congestion in the current terminal precinct, improving the customer experience for Qantas and Virgin Australia passengers.

Eventually Terminal 2 will be connected to the new Domestic Pier at Terminal 1 by a covered walkway. Scheduled to open mid year, the new Pier will become home to Virgin ,while Qantas will gain Terminal 3 and retain Terminal 4.

RyanairGuru · Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:30 am

Quoting flylonghaul (Reply 130):

I just landed in SYD on QF865 after a 3 hour delay.
2 things that caught my attention when we landed.

I have you an answer...

As EK413 pointed out, there were two cancellations. I don't know what happened to the Friday flight.

The one you saw at the maintenance hanger on Saturday was #8479, aka N179UA. This aircraft arrived from LAX on Saturday morning, and then sat at SYD until it was supposed to depart back to LAX (the SFO aircraft operated SYD-MEL-SYD that day).

During its time on the ground it was involved in a "ground incident" that caused it to sustain fuselage damage. I don't know what kind of damage it sustained, but it was fixed up at SYD and then ferried to SFO last night.

EK413 · Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:31 am

Innaugural Sichuan service to MEL.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/brandon...in/photostream

EK413

TN486 · Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:25 am

Some very interesting ac movement on the eastern seaboard right now because of congestion at SYD.
QF494 MEL - SYD made it to west of CBR before turnback, as did VOZ 891.
QF895 and JQ528 MEL - SYD burning off fuel around Wallan etc prior to return to MEL.
JQ767 ADL - Syd on turnback to ADL after half the journey complete.
JQ748 on return to LST after making landfall on the eastern seaboard. (now diverted to MEL).
UAE 414 DXB - SYD divert to MEL (a 777).
Suspect maybe some others before 2300 curfew.
Some very upset pax in the making, really shows SYD needs that second airport ASAP.

[Edited 2013-02-28 03:44:46]

[Edited 2013-02-28 03:52:01]

thegeek · Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:30 am

Quoting TN486 (Reply 190):
really shows SYD needs that second airport ASAP.

Well if the second airport has the same curfew, like Badgery's Creek presumably would, then why would there be any difference?

Sydscott · Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 191):
Well if the second airport has the same curfew, like Badgery's Creek presumably would, then why would there be any difference?

Presumably the second airport will be a bigger facility with more runways and therefore more slots. That would alleviate virtually all of the congestion problems that would have had an effect on these flights.

qfvhoqa · Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting thegeek (Reply 191):
Well if the second airport has the same curfew, like Badgery's Creek presumably would, then why would there be any difference?

Has it been said that a second airport will have the same curfew? If it ends up at Badgery's Creek the number of people affected by aircraft noise is extremely low in comparison to SYD.

Sydscott · Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting QFVHOQA (Reply 193):
Has it been said that a second airport will have the same curfew? If it ends up at Badgery's Creek the number of people affected by aircraft noise is extremely low in comparison to SYD.

Even if it does, if you have a couple of sets of parallel runways, the congestion problem will go away.

EK413 · Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:30 am

Thought I'll post a link to the hot topic plus images...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=100368878#post100368878

EK413

[Edited 2013-02-28 22:30:52]

flylonghaul · Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 188):
I have you an answer...

Thanks for the info.

Will be interesting to see if any further info surfaces about the incident.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 195):
Thought I'll post a link to the hot topic plus images...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...68878

As others have stated above, you would imagine that a new facility would be designed to accommodate demand well into the future.
But with the 3 options listed above, we are left with the same number of runways that we currently have.
Is there any info available that states whether or not the airport will be subject to the same or any curfew?

EK413 · Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:23 am

Quoting flylonghaul (Reply 196):
As others have stated above, you would imagine that a new facility would be designed to accommodate demand well into the future.
But with the 3 options listed above, we are left with the same number of runways that we currently have.
Is there any info available that states whether or not the airport will be subject to the same or any curfew?

I recommend you follow the link and have a read of everyone's in put to the 2nd airport discussion... Personally I believe the current SYD airport can handle the demand, what's holding up the airport from operating sufficiently is as follows;
#movement cap of 80 aircraft per hour
#curfew preventing aircraft landings and take offs between the hours of 2300 & 0600
#noise distribution (east-west) runway must be used during non peak to "share the noise"

With the east west runway operation closed and the movement cap increased straight off the bat you have a much needed increase of capacity available with minimal infrastructure being built... Mind you I'm in favour of the 2nd airport I'm just discussing the current airport...

EK413

TN486 · Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:56 am

I think this backs up Mariners earlier thoughts on the war between Virgin and QANTAS i.e that they shall find a "balance". www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/...301-5D2N2?OpenDocument&src=rab

[Edited 2013-03-01 02:58:21]

EK413 · Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:20 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 197):
I recommend you follow the link and have a read of everyone's in put to the 2nd airport discussion... Personally I believe the current SYD airport can handle the demand, what's holding up the airport from operating sufficiently is as follows;

Efficiently is the word... I hate predicted text...

Quoting TN486 (Reply 198):
I think this backs up Mariners earlier thoughts on the war between Virgin and QANTAS i.e that they shall find a "balance". www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/...c=rab

Interesting article... Isn't VA being optimistic forecasting a $100-$150 in 2014-15... He expects Virgin to meet its target of $40 million in codeshare and interline revenue this year, lift it to about $100 million next year and have a run rate of about $150 million a year in 2014-15.

EK413

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