MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:35 pm

I've seen a few of my F9 friends on Facebook post about wishing their co-workers well and such due to the pending announcement today. Some people are saying they hear it's not good news. Anyone know what's up? Hoping for the best as I know a bunch of great people at that airline.
 
SocalApproach
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:22 pm

I'm going with its nothing...because with F9 it honestly never is.

Going with the rumors its a new animal debute...

Unless with this new lcc strategy NK has something to do with the news   
 
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cotparampguy
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:33 pm

I just read that they are outsourcing every station except DEN. Sad.
 
tsra
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:33 pm

They are outsoursing all outstations.
 
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dabpit
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:43 pm

anyone have the link to the article?
Carpe Diem
 
MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:45 pm

I just verified this info from a former colleague in one of the stations. Said they found out today. Crazy.
 
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dabpit
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:58 pm

That is sad. Business is Business but not every decision is a good one. What is going to happen to all the workers?
I think customer service will suffer greatly.
Carpe Diem
 
SocalApproach
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:59 pm

wow boy was I wrong and underestimated this.

F9 was just hiring for the city I live in too. Their turnover rate is pretty bad here and most wanted to get out and on board with any other airline here. But the seasoned employees obviously weren't leaving with the seniority they have. When does this come into effect? I would like to know how long I have to swing by and get reaction from employees there.

Does NK do this as well?

EDIT: so does that mean this was unknown throughout the entire airline except for maybe HQ and the higher up Personal? If not then What gives with F9 still having jobs on their website for Customer Service at various Airports?

Good luck to everyone at F9

[Edited 2013-02-05 13:09:49]
 
MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:30 pm

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 7):
When does this come into effect?

I heard it begins in April and will be completed by the end of the year.
 
stlgph
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 7):
What gives with F9 still having jobs on their website for Customer Service at various Airports?

standard operating procedure. No different than a company posting jobs when it's already been filled by some employee's sister, etc. etc.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
SocalApproach
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 8):
I heard it begins in April and will be completed by the end of the year.

Thats too bad this is happening. I had some nice conversations while working at SEA (for another airline) with a few of those workers. They already cross train their employees. Its hard to imagine they need to save that much more by outsourcing it. No offense but F9 isn't even close to the highest paying airlines out there for customer service and raises are frozen from what I remember. Does anyone know what the employees get? Do they get any kind of settlement or are they just out of luck with a couple months notice to find a new job?
 
MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:43 pm

This is what someone posted on FlyerTalk. Take it for what it's worth. They might as well not even call the airline Frontier anymore. Just rebrand it to Republic and let history take its course.

-------------

1) All stations, with the exception of DEN, are going to be outsourcing employees in above and below wing operations

2) All General Managers are let go, with the exception of DEN

3) F9/Republic is working with the new company to see about hiring current F9 employees

4) DEN is under review as to whether or not they will be outsourced. Future is unclear.

5) The Republic Finance department is largely behind this decision.
 
mci10
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 9:57 pm

Sad news indeed. Have many good friends there. I heard they will get a serance but not sure what it is.
 
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727tiger
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:00 pm

This is very concerning news to me. I have a real soft spot for F9, and I really want it to succeed. I and my family have flown it whenever we could. Our F9 flight/connection options are more limited out of Branson, but we've flown F9 out of MCI some, too. Was looking to see what options it might present for a trip we're taking 7/11-7/20. That part of the flight schedule hasn't opened yet for reservations. Will have to see what develops, I guess.
 
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mariner
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting 727tiger (Reply 13):
This is very concerning news to me. I have a real soft spot for F9, and I really want it to succeed.

To succeed, especially as a separated airline from Republic, Frontier has to reduce costs. It is quite expensive to staff a station with only two or three flights a day.

In terms of the schedule, nothing changes.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:19 pm

The big problem I have with it (in addition to the many jobs lost) is the inconsistency it will create. F9 staff in DEN. Non-F9 staff everywhere else. Poor.
 
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TVNWZ
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:19 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
It is quite expensive to staff a station with only two or three flights a day.

That is all there is to it. the airline does not have sufficient heft at their stations to maintain that type of expense. It is too bad for the employees, but healthy for the company.
 
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mariner
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 16):
That is all there is to it. the airline does not have sufficient heft at their stations to maintain that type of expense. It is too bad for the employees, but healthy for the company

  

It's tough for the affected staff, no question, but some 60% of the outstations are already outsourced, as here:


ABQ (RAMP)
ANC
AUS
AZA
BIL
BIS
BKG
BLI
BMI
BNA (RAMP)
BZN
CID
CLE
CMH
COU
CUN
CVG
CZM
DRO (RAMP)
DSM
DTW (RAMP)
FAI
FAR
FLL
FSD
GEG
GRR
GSO
GTF
HUX
IAH
JAC
LIR
LIT
MBJ
MCO (RAMP)
MDT
MOT
MSN (RAMP)
MSP (RAMP)
MSY
OKC
ORD
PDX (RAMP)
PHF
PHL (RAMP)
PSP
PUJ
PVR
RDU
RFD
RSW
SBN
SHD
SJD
SJO
SNA (RAMP)
STL (RAMP)
TPA
TTN
TYS

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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727tiger
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):
To succeed, especially as a separated airline from Republic, Frontier has to reduce costs. It is quite expensive to staff a station with only two or three flights a day.

The business-related justification for it is sound. You have to cut costs. Just seems like another step in the direction most of us would hate to see it go.
 
SocalApproach
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:30 pm

If they outsource everywhere eventually who do you say you work for if you are one of those outsourced employees? Everyone would work for F9 essentially right? The entire airline is going to be served by people who don't work for Frontier??   Its kinda comical because its like a big circle...unless there is something preventing these outsourced employees from making a certain amount so payroll is never high eventually wont F9 be in the same situation they are in now? I know their checks wont say Frontier but unless that is in place this isn't a longterm fix...I assume that it is though and wages will be bare minimum and Needless to say customer service will leave alot be desired because of it. Long live F9
 
MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:34 pm

Frontier was always known for great customer service. That leads to repeat business. Having every outstation run by vendors and keeping F9 staff in Denver is just basically throwing in the towel in terms of a consistent, genuine experience for the passengers. They will experience two different levels of service, no matter how hard the company strives for consistency. And while I have no proof, I guarantee you Dave Siegel said something to the effect of "This was not a decision that we made lightly." Isn't it easy to say that when it doesn't directly affect you? All I can say is that I hope passengers remember how great Frontier used to be. Things will be different going forward, no matter the spin.
 
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mariner
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 20):
All I can say is that I hope passengers remember how great Frontier used to be.

And that Frontier went bankrupt.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
And that Frontier went bankrupt.

Great in terms of customer service...the basics. They did the basics better than most anyone. The people make the airline. Now you're getting sort of a Spirit/old Frontier hybrid. Very strange.
 
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mariner
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 22):
Great in terms of customer service...the basics. They did the basics better than most anyone. The people make the airline. Now you're getting sort of a Spirit/old Frontier hybrid. Very strange.

Maybe, but Frontier has not made a full year profit since 2003. The CEO says it will report a full year profit in 2012.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
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spinkid
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:51 pm

What are their largest stations outside Denver?

I generally hate outsourced stations. I understand the economics of it, but the customer service is terrible. There is no incentive to provide quality customer service.
 
smoot4208
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:52 pm

Dave Siegel was brought in to cut costs. He was brought in at US for the same reasons. He did the job he was suppose to, but at the expense of employee morale. Everyone disliked him there, and he appears to be on the same path here at F9. The F9 folk should know he was brought in for a reason. Just like Menke was brought in for his leadership of guiding a company through bk, (as later seen at Pinnacle doing the same role) every CEO is brought in for a reason.



Most of these make sense, with the exception of places like LAS, LAX, PHX, etc. Maybe to guarantee certain rates with a 3rd party operator, they had to include so manu positions.
 
rampart
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:57 pm

One answer to not contracting out the regional flying is to contract out the personnel outside the plane.

Sort of the inverse of a wet-lease.

Sort of similar to a McDonalds franchise. Use the name, staff your own location.

This may be the way of the future for other airlines. It may be a wash for employees if they end up being hired by an outsourced organization. Maybe they'll manage the employees better?

-Rampart
 
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mariner
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:57 pm

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 25):
Just like Menke was brought in for his leadership of guiding a company through bk, (as later seen at Pinnacle doing the same role) every CEO is brought in for a reason.

That's not my understanding of why he was brought into Frontier. And at Pinnacle, he didn't guide it through Chapter 11 - he quit.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
luv2fly
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:18 pm

Sad to see though no different then what other airlines have done to save a dime.
VS outsourced all the stations in the United States several years ago and they survived. I understand though I don't agree your going to get what you pay for and or not pay for.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
TWA1985
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:22 pm

I assume that Chicago will keep F9 staff for the pilot and FA bass there, correct?
Live Young. Live Wild. Live Free.
 
MSYtristar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:23 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 23):
Maybe, but Frontier has not made a full year profit since 2003. The CEO says it will report a full year profit in 2012.

All I'm saying is that I believe customer service will go down the toilet and that customer retention will become that much more difficult. No more, no less.
 
WesternA318
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:25 pm

Quoting dabpit (Reply 6):
That is sad. Business is Business but not every decision is a good one. What is going to happen to all the workers?
I think customer service will suffer greatly.

What customer service? I've flown them on 8 segments from October through December last year between SLC and STL, and lemme tell ya, I for one will NOT miss a single one of the ground agents. Good bye and good riddance. Now if the airline itself would just fold its wings, I can cash in on my short sells in Republic.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
gustywinds
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:26 pm

With all due respect to the affected F9 employees, I have had great customer service from some of their contract locations. I even said to myself that the F9 employees in DEN could learn a lesson about customer service from some of their contractors. There actually IS an incentive for the contractors to provide a good, reliable service. If they don't, F9 won't renew their contracts.
 
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mariner
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 31):
Good bye and good riddance. Now if the airline itself would just fold its wings, I can cash in on my short sells in Republic.

You're short RJET? Oh, gosh.

Good luck with that.  

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
globalflyer
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:29 pm

Very sad indeed! Does anyone know how the future TTN bookings are looking? COS did not last long as a "mini-hub" and I fear that TTN will not either.
Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
 
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mariner
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 34):
Does anyone know how the future TTN bookings are looking? COS did not last long as a "mini-hub" and I fear that TTN will not either.

As I posted on a.net at the time, within a week of bookings opening for TTN-MCO it became one of the fastest booked routes I had ever seen at Frontier and it seems to be holding up.

February and March TTN bookings look very good.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
azstar
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:47 pm

Just another example of a US company that views employees as liabilities rather than assets. It's sad, and very poor business, for a business that depends on employees to operate. The only airline that doesn't have this philosphy is Southwest, and look at their financial performance vs all the rest.
 
usflyer msp
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:51 pm

I feel so sorry for the F9 staff here at MSP. They are all so nice. For some of them, this is their 3rd or 4th airline layoff. One lady there used to work for Sun Country (version 1), then after they shut down got hired by ATA, then got hired by Frontier after ATA shut down and now she is screwed again. Even the station manager is the former Champion Air station manager. If I hear about any openings I will be sure to let them know. The airline industry sucks...
 
dlramp4life
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Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:55 pm

Sad to see this news. I will miss the F9 employees at my station. They are our neighbors and always have helped each other out... But it is also understandable. F9 is going the ulcc route so why not operate like NK and G4... Various airport service companies and other airlines will become F9 pretty much all over the country...

Best of luck F9 employees affected by this
SEA Ramp, wettest place on earth
 
freakyrat
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:06 am

F9 outsources at SBN to DGS. The same people who work the Delta Connection flights work the Frontier flight. The DGS employees who work at SBN are outstanding. At airports where they have only 3 or 4 flights a week such as SBN this will make no difference.
 
rj777
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:26 am

So does this mean even the pilots and the flight attendants?
 
ckfred
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:02 am

Quoting azstar (Reply 36):
Just another example of a US company that views employees as liabilities rather than assets. It's sad, and very poor business, for a business that depends on employees to operate.

It's not that U.S. companies want to view employees as liabilities. It's that corporate raiders like Carl Icahn and Norman Peltz see a company doing poorly, buy a large position, then pester management to either improve company performance or threaten a proxy fight for seats on the board.

Remember that Wall Street still thinks that WN needs to charge for checked bags and snacks the way most other carriers do. Never mind that WN has picked up market share from other carriers, because it still offers free checked bags.

It seems that investors want to buy a stock today and see it double its price in 6 months. No one is willing to sit through a 5-year turnaround plan.
 
m11stephen
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:05 am

Any word on what contractor(s) were awarded all these stations? Who currently handles F9 in TTN?
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting azstar (Reply 36):
Southwest, and look at their financial performance vs all the rest.

Is F9 unionized? I've not seen a peep about some union screaming bloody murder. On the brighter side, nonrev benefits for DEN employees just got better.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
PHX787
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:57 am

Ok, Im the odd guy out here-What do you mean by outsourced? What is being outsourced ?
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Wingtips56
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 44):

Ok, Im the odd guy out here-What do you mean by outsourced? What is being outsourced ?

Ìn this case it means throwing away your employees and contracting with another company to provide the ground handling.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
 
nutsaboutplanes
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting Wingtips56 (Reply 45):
Ìn this case it means throwing away your employees and contracting with another company to provide the ground handling.



While I agree with your assessment in the most simplistic terms......what it really means is that Frontier/ Republic has realized that the future of the company rests upon the ability of the organization to reduce costs. "Throwing away" employees is never an easy decision especially on a scale such as this. The decision to outsource even one station is a painful choice for a leadership team to make and it is, in almost every case, a last ditch effort to reduce costs and generate financial stability for a particular city pair or in this case, the airline as a whole.

While many will lose their jobs, many others will retain their job as a result. It would not be far fetched in my opinion for Frontier to simply close its doors and cut its losses........management is trying to salvage a sinking ship.
American Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Northwest Airlines, America West Airlines, USAFR
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting nutsaboutplanes (Reply 46):
in almost every case, a last ditch effort to reduce costs and generate financial stability for a particular city pair or in this case, the airline as a whole.

Help me with how outsourcing stations with two flights a day - something most other carriers did years ago - is necessarily "last ditch." I don't see it.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
Something to chew on...even crappy Spirit has its own employees at some outstations. Yes, Spirit, the airline everyone hates.

How many daily flights does NK have at the smallest outstation with NK staff?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Announcement From F9 Feb 5, 2013

Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:01 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 48):
Amen. I experience it all the time flying DL and UA. There is no comparison for actual airline employees. And as many of noted, one of Frontier's best features is its customer service. Good luck F9 with minimum wage slackers who don't know the intricacies of abnormal operations.

I called them out on FB about it, and I got a pretty generic reply about how all the vendors will be trained like current staff. I hope they really don't believe that will somehow negate the fact that these people have no real dedication to the airline...no incentive to excel, to go above and beyond, to really give a damn...because they are paid bottom of the barrel wages and are offered little in terms of benefits from the handling company itself, and nothing from the airline. And as someone said previously, turnover is incredibly high. Frontier is treading into dangerous territory here.