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KarelXWB
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Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:01 pm

Air Canada will introduce a 458-seater Boeing 777-300ER aircraft on the Montreal - Paris CDG route from July 11. The firm also announces a new Executive First Class Seating as well as the introduction of Premium Economy Class. The cabin configuration will be C36 W24 Y398 and economy class will be a 3-4-3 layout.

AC870 YUL2055 – 0945+1CDG 77W D
AC871 CDG1330 – 1450YUL 77W D

http://airlineroute.net/2013/02/07/ac-77w-jul13/



More information on the cabin can be found at http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/77W.html

Always nice to see a high density 77W  

[Edited 2013-02-07 04:22:02]
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
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Polot
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:10 pm

What seats do that have in business class since they are not using the herringbone seat found in the rest of their 777 fleet?
 
jfk777
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:11 pm

what type of J class seat is AC using now ?
 
travelavnut
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:13 pm

It looks like the window seats on row 59 get a bit more legroom, is this correct?
Live From Amsterdam!
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:20 pm

Another cattle car... That seems very tight. I guess they are taking a page from AF's book?
 
parapente
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:21 pm

I once wrote on this with regard to the best economy flight I ever had was a brand new AC 773 to Toronto out of Heathrow.9 across seats (must have been 19-20 in seats) good legroom etc etc. I guess this move is simply a sign of the times.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:28 pm

Is the whole fleet being re-fitted or just specific aircraft?
Or am I just rambling utter tripe (again?) and this is one of the newbies?
 
qf15
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:28 pm

Wow! That looks very crowded.
Anyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting QF15 (Reply 7):
Anyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.

AF has 472 seats for flights to old colonies and territories, I think. EK has 427 on two class A/C.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting QF15 (Reply 7):
nyone have seat numbers on the highest density 77W flying these days and what airline?? ..this would have to be close to it I'd imagine.

The KLM 77W's have 425 seats.
Close, but no cigar http://vine.co/v/OjqeYWWpVWK
 
ba319-131
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:05 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
Is the whole fleet being re-fitted or just specific aircraft?

- That is a good question.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 6):
this is one of the newbies?

- Yes, this is one of 5 new builds due this and next year.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
Hawaiian763
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:08 pm

I remember flying the 77W with AC on the CDG-YUL route, it was one of the most comfortable flights I've ever had with AC in economy class. The introduction of Premium Economy would be a very attractive option for me, especially for the additional legroom. I'm sort of thinking it's like United's Economy Plus, but with a few more benefits.
 
CXB77L
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Always nice to see a high density 77W

In a way, yes it is. I've often argued that there is a case for the 777-9X precisely because there are airlines fitting more and more seats onto the 777-300ER. The larger size of the 777-9X will be extremely attractive to such airlines. The fact that more and more airlines are putting 400+ seats on a 777-300ER is an indication that a larger 777 is needed.

Quoting parapente (Reply 5):
I guess this move is simply a sign of the times.

Indeed it is, although it is unfortunate for the traveller. A lot of aircraft have started its service life with a lower density configuration than it ends with. The original 747s were 9 across in economy, but now 10 across is standard. Likewise the 777. Smaller widebodies such as the DC10 and the L-1011 have also been equipped with more seats per row later on in its service life to minimise the per seat costs as fuel prices gradually get higher and higher.
Boeing 777 fanboy
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:21 pm

Meh. AC was starting to lose me. This seals the deal. I just know AC will roll this out fleet wide. Less privacy in J. Cramped 10 abreast in Y. What reason is there to take AC anymore? 24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

Heck, at least other airlines that offer such cramped cabins participate in the Amex platinum airline program. Not AC.

Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.
 
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 1):

What seats do that have in business class since they are not using the herringbone seat found in the rest of their 777 fleet?

They are launching a new Executive Class seat which is mentioned on the Air Canada website here:

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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:38 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Heck, at least other airlines that offer such cramped cabins participate in the Amex platinum airline program. Not AC.

They do, actually.
Empty vessels make the most noise.
 
behramjee
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:08 pm

this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

Routes ideally suited to such a configuration include YUL-CMN (3 weekly), DEL (4 weekly), YVR-MNL (4 weekly), HKG (daily) and Canada-China

New configuration is 36 business class (flat beds) + 24 premium economy and 398 economy class with economy seats losing one-inch of legroom from the existing fleet at 31-inches due to their “slimline” leather seats.

Am surprised (in a good way) that they managed to squeeze in more seats on a B77W than Emirates does in a 2 class configuration ! With this layout, Air Canada thus becomes the airline with the second highest seat count for a legacy carrier operating long haul flights using a B77W as # 1 is Air France (Caribbean/BKK flights layout) which has 478 seats on board its B77Ws.

To give you an idea on how big certain long haul markets are from Canada, the list is below for 2012:

YYZ-HKG 293,000 pax
YYZ-DEL 176,000 pax
YYZ-LHR 392,000 pax
YYZ-CDG 198,000 pax
YYZ-PEK 182,000 pax
YYZ-PVG 121,000 pax
YYZ-MNL 143,000 pax
YYZ-FCO 181,000 pax
YYZ-ICN 100,000 pax

YVR-PEK 135,000 pax
YVR-DEL 142,000 pax
YVR-MNL 88,000 pax
YVR-LHR 232,000 pax
YVR-HKG 283,000 pax
YVR-PVG 155,000 pax
YVR-ICN 130,000 pax
YVR-NRT 110,000 pax

YUL-CDG 503,000 pax
YUL-LHR 129,000 pax
YUL-CMN 94,000 pax

[Edited 2013-02-07 06:16:41]
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:09 pm

I don't think it really makes much difference to the average economy passenger how many passengers there are in the plane in total. If you are sitting in economy at the back of the plane, it doesn't matter to you whether the front has first, business class or more economy. And if you are sitting at the front in business or first class, it doesn't matter to you how many people are sitting behind the curtain behind you. You may not even see them or hear them, any you'll get off before them all anyway.
 
swallow
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:25 pm

Hmmm... EK gets lots of stick for its 3-4-3 layout in Y, but more and more airlines are adopting it

AC joins the cramped club which includes AA, CZ, KL, EK, EY, AF, KQ, NZ, 9W........

Soon enough, 9-abreast in coach will be the exception rather than the rule
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airceo
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.

All indications are that they're happy to stick to their knitting and stay within the continent only for the foreseeable future. That said I would love to see a second big international player sporting the maple leaf.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):

24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

I'll hold of judging for now I fear you may be right.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 16):

this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

I'm not so sure... Just because it works for some carriers doesn't mean it will for all carriers. I realize this has worked very well for EK, but AC is not EK. Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from YYZ to India is quit another. I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

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chrisa330
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:37 pm

The J class seat being introduced on these 5 new B77W are interim. AC will be launching a fully redesigned J class seat with the introduction of the 787s in 2014.

The J class seat on the high density 77W is the same as those found on SWISS and brussels airlines.
 
chrisa330
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

Looks like they're charging almost twice the lowest Y fare available (Tango).

YUL-CDG has Tango as $530/direction, Y+ is $969. For comparison, the J fare is $1910.

Not at bad as I thought it would have been.
 
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
I'm not so sure... Just because it works for some carriers doesn't mean it will for all carriers. I realize this has worked very well for EK, but AC is not EK. Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from YYZ to India is quit another. I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

many airlines worldwide now have 10 abreast in Y class on board their B77W fleet of which EK was the pioneer of. These include Etihad, Air France, KLM, Jet Airways, TAM Brazil and now Air Canada.

VFR pax who use these carriers have no problem sitting in this arrangement for long haul flights as you see 1000s everyday flying EK to USA/Australia/GRU etc via DXB + KLM via AMS !
 
JetboyTWA
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:57 pm

The seats appear to be the Thompson Vantage found on Swiss, Finnair, Delta, etc.
 
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
C36 W24 Y398

It always amazes me how few Y+ seats will be in any cabin. It shows how few people are willing to pay for comfort. I understand J/C is often too pricey, but this shows that only 6% of Y passengers are willing to pay for comfort.  
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
The fact that more and more airlines are putting 400+ seats on a 777-300ER is an indication that a larger 777 is needed.
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 12):
Indeed it is, although it is unfortunate for the traveller.

Why is it unfortunate they are being provided the product they wish to pay for. If someone wants more comfort, there is Y+/W. Or even the C seats. The reality is that AC must compete with bargain fairs to CDG and now they have a configuration to make money.

Everyone demands more comfort... then they go online and book the cheapest fair.

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
24 Y+ is a pittance and knowing AC they'll charge 2x Y for those.

1.5X just breaks even on the floor real-estate. Since Y+ will have a lower load factor, 2X is very reasonable. Aircraft real estate is expensive. Since few (if any) will pay more for 9 across Y in a 777, the market is moving to 10 across Y and offering Y+/W for those who care enough to pay for space.

Considering how cheap flights are versus 30 years ago... I'm not complaining. Pick your seat and enjoy!   

Lightsaber
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AirbusA6
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:09 pm

The answer to this is to search out A380 flights, and then enjoy the extra shoulder room from having an identical 10Y layout on a much wider plane  
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:24 pm

So YUL-CDG gets a 30% seat increase......!

This new J class product looks good. Same 180% lie-flat recline, same seat length (longer in lie-flat mode), Only half an inch less wide. AVOD is 3 in wider. All in all, Not too bad, even if just interim. One would think the new ones coming online in 2014 with the 787s will be even better !

As for 10 abreast in Y, i've done JFK-DXB-MLE-DXB-JFK in that config with EK, and it's not too bad (and i'm 6 foot, 210 lbs). I've done it with AF as well on YUL-CDG-YUL. I guess most majors will eventually get there on their B77Ws. Just a matter of time. Average Joe wont even notice.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2013-02-07 07:33:21]
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 26):
This new J class product looks good.

I understand that the re-design of the J product was in response to passenger suggestion. While the herringbone arrangement was state-of-the-art 10 years ago, it is dated now, with better options.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 26):
I guess most majors will eventually get there on their B77Ws.

As sad as I am to see this trend, I have to grudgingly admit, it IS the future. While by percentage, currently flying 9-abreast B777s outnumber 10-abreast B777s, the fact is on new build B777s, the ratio is 5:1 for 10 vs. 9 abreast configurations.

It really becomes a matter of when, not if, currently flying B777s are re-configured. And ... each airline has to assess if it can attract a "premium" in fare by remaining at 9 abreast, as otherwise it will be at an economic disadvantage. To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.
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Kaiarahi
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.

   Witness NZ, which is a 4 star airline with longhaul routes. The 77Ws being delivered are 10 abreast Y. They're not even trying to get a premium on their 9 abreast 77Es.
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intermodal64
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting swallow (Reply 18):
I don't think it really makes much difference to the average economy passenger how many passengers there are in the plane in total. If you are sitting in economy at the back of the plane, it doesn't matter to you whether the front has first, business class or more economy. And if you are sitting at the front in business or first class, it doesn't matter to you how many people are sitting behind the curtain behind you. You may not even see them or hear them, any you'll get off before them all anyway.

It sort of does make a difference when you get to baggage claim, and it takes an hour to retrieve your luggage. This is one reason I prefer smaller aircraft in general.

It looks like their strategy is to make economy class so unbearable that business travelers will simply refuse to fly if their companies won't pay for some kind of an upgrade.
 
Hawaiian763
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 13):
Here's hoping Westjet grows and officially becomes a Oneworld member.

WestJet growing yes, joining Oneworld, wouldn't be too happy about that. I would be more happy if they stayed on the course that they are on right now and not join an alliance. I am curious to see how their plans to also roll out a Premium Economy product will play out
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.

I don't think any carrier is getting a "premium" on a 9 across, so much as estimating that the cost to refit a frame into 10-across is higher than the incremental revenue they'd get.

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):
They're not even trying to get a premium on their 9 abreast 77Es.

There's none to be had.
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Rbgso
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:30 pm

Using one jetbridge I imagine this thing would take forever to unload! If you're in the last row you'd have time to watch a sitcom before you exit.
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 15):
They do, actually.

You're thinking of Aeroplan Platinum. Not American Express Platinum.

https://www298.americanexpress.com/platinum/secure/ca/en/benefit.do?method=loadBenefit&benefitID=tcm:589-224949

That gets you companion tickets on several major carriers for long-haul flights, in J or F. AC does not participate in this program.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 16):
this is how you can make good money on long haul VFR (ethnic) routes operated with B777-300ERs by having a ultra high density configuration perfectly suited to the market demographic hence reducing your operating cost per seat unit.

Sadly, this is true. I guess now AC may finally be able to serve places like India directly. Or maybe they're holding out for the 350 pax 787-9 before they serve DEL.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
I'll hold of judging for now I fear you may be right.

It's AC. One should never hold out hope they won't disappoint. They've done innovative things in the past to be sure. But I have no confidence in AC today being anything more than another carrier engaged in the race to the bottom.

Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
Sitting 10 abreast from DXB to India is one thing, sitting 10 abreast from
Quoting airceo (Reply 19):
I also worry that high yield premium pax will not like the more compact cabin and will look elsewhere.

This also. Like I said, I fail to see what AC offers at this point. You get better cabins flying an Asian carrier. You often get better service flying a European carrier. And most of those are often more competitively priced too. The only people regular filling J on AC these days are probably Canadians who want to maintain status at domestic/north american travel as well.

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 21):
Not at bad as I thought it would have been.
TK gives me a return ticket from BOM via IST, with Y+ on the 10 hr IST leg and Y on IST-BOM legs for about $1800. And TK's Y+ offering will still be substantially better than what AC apparently has on offer. Nearly $2000 on a return Y+ fare from YUL to CDG? That's horrendous.

The only people who say this is reasonable are those who think AC's base fares are reasonable to begin with.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 22):
VFR pax who use these carriers have no problem sitting in this arrangement for long haul flights as you see 1000s everyday flying EK to USA/Australia/GRU etc via DXB + KLM via AMS !
EK sends A380s to Toronto. 18" wide seats, even though they are 10-abreast. And with the amount of A380s EK has on order, you can bet that most markets more than 10 hours from DXB will get A380 service. Meanwhile, AC will pack you on a 17" seat in Y and then transfer you to another *A carrier likely to do the same as well.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
The answer to this is to search out A380 flights, and then enjoy the extra shoulder room from having an identical 10Y layout on a much wider plane

Bingo. I predict that lots of transfer pax/VFR will try out AC's service initially and then run back to EK. At least for South Asia. But maybe it'll help AC compete for Europe bound tourists.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
It really becomes a matter of when, not if, currently flying B777s are re-configured.

Exactly.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 27):
And ... each airline has to assess if it can attract a "premium" in fare by remaining at 9 abreast, as otherwise it will be at an economic disadvantage. To date, only very very few airlines have been able to do this, and even that is changing.


I agree. But what saddens me is the extremely limited Y+ cabin. It's almost like AC is mostly targeting the upgraders rather than actually hoping to sell Y+ seats. And it also sucks that in addition to going 10-abreast, they dropped the pitch by 1". I'd be far less hostile if they had kept the 32" pitch.

Sign of the times, I guess.

How will the public know whether it's a 2-class or 3-class bird? Is it just by the availability of Y+ when booking?

[Edited 2013-02-07 08:39:10]
 
na
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:37 pm

Surely a plane to avoided in Eco. The 777 seems perfectly suited to become a sardine can. A trend thats getting worse.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 25):
The answer to this is to search out A380 flights, and then enjoy the extra shoulder room from having an identical 10Y layout on a much wider plane  

Absolutely.
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:41 pm

Wow that's a lot of folks on one flight. How many cabin crew are required to handle 458 passengers?
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:41 pm

One more concern. Number of washrooms. Imagine the lineups and the ummm comfort level....
 
chrisa330
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:43 pm

Can anyone comment on what impact to range a capacity increase like this would have? Wondering if this change still allows for these aircraft to fly Asia routes.
 
ytz
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:47 pm

Quoting na (Reply 34):
The 777 seems perfectly suited to become a sardine can. A trend thats getting worse.

Not just the 777. The 787 has hit sardine can status just after launch. I loved the idea of the 787. But in the future, I'll look for carriers operating A350s. If travelling in Y, you know you'll get an 18" wide seat. Thankfully, Airbus didn't make it possible for the airlines to go 10-abreast.
 
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PW100
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:51 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Air Canada will introduce a 458-seater Boeing 777-300ER aircraft on the Montreal - Paris CDG route from July 11

Holy crap, and hyere I was, thinking KLM's 425 was tight!!

Question: will AC now consider this to be a VLA . . .      
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skipness1E
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:55 pm

Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.
For an economy product, for what we pay, it's perfectly acceptable, for those who want more, pay more.

But so very few will pay out of their own pockets if course.
 
777ER
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting Hawaiian763 (Reply 11):

When I fly long haul my first choice is Y+ which is why NZ currently gets all my business from AKL. If the AC Y+ cabin works out cheaper via SYD and YVR to North America with a good offering then AC could very well be getting my North American business. Plus its a good way to try the B772LR also  
Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 28):

Sadly NZs B772 Y cabins are also going the way of the B77W Y cabin but thankfully the Y+ cabin is getting a change
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting chrisa330 (Reply 37):
Can anyone comment on what impact to range a capacity increase like this would have? Wondering if this change still allows for these aircraft to fly Asia routes.

109 more pax? Should reduce payload by 30 000 lbs. Range can stay the same at a reduced payload. Or they pack up the plane to the gills and only have enough gas to get to Europe.

I am willing to bet that AC will retrofit all the 77Ws. In this configuration, at max payload (or close to it), AC would probably still be able to reach IST, GRU and GIG from YYZ and ICN, NRT, PVG, and PEK from YVR. And that's assuming near to max payloads. For less, AC could go further.
 
chrisa330
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 42):
I am willing to bet that AC will retrofit all the 77Ws.

I agree that they'll at some point retrofit Y class to 10 abreast as well as introduce Y+ across the whole 777 fleet. I wouldn't be surprised if they have two seperate J class configs, with one more premium heavy than the other.
 
Arrow
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:18 pm

This is why I now look for long haul f;lights using A330,A340,767 as equipment. With the 2-3-2 or 2-4-2 seating I can get into those window/aisle seats and not worry if the pitch is a little cramped because I only have to climb over my wife to get out. I've done a few ANZ flights in their 777s, and the long hauls are 3-3-3 which is bearable. But they also have 3-4-3 layouts on their AKL-Australia 777 flights -- which are bearable only because they are mostly under 5 hours.


This sardine can trend is very worrisome. I'd cheerfully pay more for a little extra space. Anything over 10 hours is torture.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
rampbro
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:30 pm

I was under the impression that AC was going to get Rouge to do this kind of flying? Or are they are going after the CDG CNXs (M-E, Africa), for which there is a strong market ex-YUL?

I wonder what the O&D/CNX ratio is like on that YUL-CDG time slot.

Strange move.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):

The key point in that statement is "for what you pay". Any Canadian resident who's travelled on an itinerary not originating in Canada (that they themselves have paid for) will know that the value-for-money proposition involving flights originating in Canada is amongst the worst, if not the worst, in the world.

There is a massive difference between the value-for-money between different carriers. To put it in perspective:

YUL-CDG in AC Y: $1100 round trip, 50% miles, mediocre catering, 31" legroom, 3-4-3 6884 miles

LHR-DEL in 9W Y: $900 round trip, 100% miles, good catering, 32" legroom, 3-4-3 8200 miles

Two similar products with different value for money propositions.

Take Y+. In theory, I belong to the crowd that will spend a little bit extra to fly Y+. In theory. Outside Canada, I actually put it into practice (just had a pleasant experience with VS a month ago). The same reason applies:

YUL-CDG: ~$1900 rt, 2-4-2, 6884 miles (priority baggage, extra miles, dedicated check-in?)

LHR-DEL (VS): ~$1600, 2-3-2, 8200 miles, priority baggage, dedicated check in, 125% miles, priority boarding.

Even if they're identical products, you're still getting a different value for the money paid. All of which is to say that Canada is a unique market in the worst possible way - we just pay more than everyone else for the same product.

I m happy to pay that $700 premium on LHR-DEL. On YOW/YUL-LHR? You're having a laugh.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 33):
TK gives me a return ticket from BOM via IST, with Y+ on the 10 hr IST leg and Y on IST-BOM legs for about $1800. And TK's Y+ offering will still be substantially better than what AC apparently has on offer. Nearly $2000 on a return Y+ fare from YUL to CDG? That's horrendous.

Well, actually, the same TK gives you IST-BUD in Y+ for about $ 2000 too. Not much difference compared to AC.

[Edited 2013-02-07 10:03:26]
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ytz
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.

Fine and comfortable are two different things. Value for money, as well, is an altogether different matter.
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Air Canada Launches New 458-Seater 77W

Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 40):
Having flown on a ten abreast Emirates model, I realised that unless you're, well shall we actually say fat, it's fine.
For an economy product, for what we pay, it's perfectly acceptable, for those who want more, pay more.

I beg to differ. I'm not fat, but large (6'3" / 200 lbs). I have broad shoulders, which I can't do anything about, even if I lost 50 pounds. On the 9W 77Ws I flew LHR-BOM and DEL-LHR, the flights were extremely uncomfortable. My shoulder protruded about 2-3 inches into the aisle, and I was being bumped by pax and trollies the entire flight. If I was in a middle or window seat, I'd be significantly invading the personal space of the pax next to me.

In fact, it's enough to put me off flying 9W's 77Ws (and any others like EK, AF, KL) in the future. I'd rather have the somewhat subpar product BA offers, but 9 across.

[Edited 2013-02-07 10:14:25]