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STT757
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JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:46 pm

The Port Authority yesterday approved phase II of the Terminal 4 expansion. Phase II will add 11 regional jet gates to the end of concourse B, the concourse DL is currently expanding. There were renderings previously released back when the project was first announced showing the Phase II expansion. It also officially eliminates the walkway from T-4 to T-2, the justification being that with the Regional operation moving to T-4 they would no longer be the need for the walkway. T-3 is going to be torn down, no change, and T-2 will carry on with a new shuttle bus connecting T-2 to T-4 airside.

http://www.panynj.gov/corporate-info...n/pdf/board_minutes_feb_6_2013.pdf
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jfklganyc
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:08 pm

Shocked.

Obviously Delta had some obligations to meet that were in limbo when they scrapped the connector...so they just went ahead with phase 2 of 3 of moving all its operations to T4, thus relieving them of the connector obligaton.

Phase 3...the extension of Concourse A to accomodate DLs non RJ domestic operation is still a few years away.

But as we saw in the original drawing, there is a plan...and Delta, JFKIAT, and the PANYNJ seem to be seeing it out.


Same Docket: On another note, several years ago they discussed a ramp from the Palisades to the Lower Level of the George Washington Bridge. Quite a shame they are rebuilding a flawed ramp design.
 
cokepopper
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:44 pm

 
ANITIX87
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:03 pm

That'll be quite a walk if you're connecting from T2 to a regional flight in T4...

Is the connector between the terminals airside or landside?

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Polot
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:09 pm

The connector you see in the rendering is the one that was cancelled. Shuttle buses will be used for T4-T2 connections (airside).

[Edited 2013-02-07 06:10:18]
 
incitatus
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:54 pm

Is there going to be a bus from T4 check-in to the new regional gates? It is a 0.75 mile walk.
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questions
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:07 pm

Will T2 be used for certain flights, eg, transcon, ATL?

Is the eventual plan for DL to take over all of T4 and move T4 Concourse A airlines into an expanded T1 (ie, eventual demolition of T2 also)?
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:13 pm

To answer both your questions...yes and yes.

I guess from this..T2 will revert to all mainline domestic.

With the RJs moving to T4 DL will actually gain 3 mainline gates at T2.
 
william
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:15 pm

I see DL moving out of T2 and it being demolished to make room for an expanded T1. Hate to see T3 go, but looking at the pic I see why.
 
ScottB
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
Is the eventual plan for DL to take over all of T4 and move T4 Concourse A airlines into an expanded T1 (ie, eventual demolition of T2 also)?

IMO the true ultimate plan is for DL to buy B6 and connect Terminals 4 & 5.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
Will T2 be used for certain flights, eg, transcon, ATL?

Probably mainline domestic, but I would guess not transcon, now that they are starting to use international aircraft (767s and 757s with Business Elite) to LAX and SFO. I'd expect those flights to be at T4, but who knows.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 10):
but I would guess not transcon

You are correct, all of DL's JFK - LAX, SFO, SEA transcon flights will be departing from T4.

http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1757

This is great news, glad to see the port authority and DL moving onto phase II so quickly. Its going to cost DL $175mil for 11 RJ gates and a bus station, not a bad amount of money for preferential use of the gates and the ease of connections to the rest of international operation DL will be running out of T4.

Does anybody know the timeline for the completion of phase II?

[Edited 2013-02-07 08:26:45]

[Edited 2013-02-07 08:28:55]
 
panamair
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
for 9 RJ gates

Believe it will be 11 gates.
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 12):

Thank you for the correction, for some reason I had 9 stuck in my head.

Are 11 gates going to be enough for the entire RJ operation? I counted 17 RJ stands at the end of T2 currently available for use.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
You are correct, all of DL's JFK - LAX, SFO, SEA transcon flights will be departing from T4.

Thanks for the confirmation--didn't realize that had been announced officially.

Quoting william (Reply 8):
I see DL moving out of T2 and it being demolished to make room for an expanded T1. Hate to see T3 go, but looking at the pic I see why.

I agree, that would make sense in the long term. The expanded T1 could then accommodate some of the international airlines displaced from T4.
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rwsea
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:38 pm

Rather than keep T2, why doesn't DL add another "finger" off of T4 concourse B (in the direction of where T2/3 are now)? Seems that having everything in one, state of the art terminal is preferable to two terminals connected by a bus. Would simplify connections and give everyone an equally good experience.
 
FoxBravo
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 15):
Seems that having everything in one, state of the art terminal is preferable to two terminals connected by a bus. Would simplify connections and give everyone an equally good experience.

Absolutely, and I think DL consolidating in T4 is definitely where things are headed--it just can't happen overnight. Phase II, moving the RJ gates to T4, is another good step in the right direction. Phase III, with the expansion of Concourse A, will allow DL to leave T2.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
ldvaviation
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:46 pm

How long does this make Concourse B? Will it be as long as Concourse D in Miami?
 
panamair
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 13):
Thank you for the correction, for some reason I had 9 stuck in my head

You were probably thinking of the 9 gates that have been added to Concourse B as part of the Phase 1 expansion (opening in May)!
 
cokepopper
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:53 pm

Theoretically could all of SkyTeam fit in a phase 3 Terminal 4 and anyone one left be regulated to
Terminal 1 and 2 ? If so, what are the chances Delta/Sky Team just utilize Term 4?
 
bizjet
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 13):
Are 11 gates going to be enough for the entire RJ operation? I counted 17 RJ stands at the end of T2 currently available for use.

I was wondering that too. I believe Gate 23/25 at T2 has 17 RJ stands as you say, plus Gate 18 in the T3 saucer is used for RJs.

However, I bet 11 gates at the new T4 extension is sufficient because:

1) RJ operations are down substantially at JFK following the LGA ramp-up. I don't have the exact numbers, but DL pulled down JFK RJ flying as it ramped up the LGA schedule. So they don't need as many JFK RJ gates as they did at their peak. I don't think they're using all the RJ stands now even at peak times.

2) I've always noticed RJs sitting on the T2 stands for a long time, whether as spares or to allow better scheduling to optimize connectivity. Worse case scenario, spares and planes with an extended sit could move off the gate to a nearby hardstand.
 
bizjet
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:00 pm

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 17):
How long does this make Concourse B? Will it be as long as Concourse D in Miami?

Headhouse to the end of the RJ extension will be right around 0.5 mi.

I think Concourse D in MIA is closer to a mile.
 
LXA340
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:01 pm

Looking at all those Sky Team Airlines at T1 such as Korean Air, Aero Mexico, Aeroflot, Alitalia and Air France these should eventually move to T4 and SWISS and Singapore Airlines should move to T1. As on other airports also at JFK the Terminals should start ot be organized on Alliance level.
 
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Polot
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting LXA340 (Reply 22):

AF and KE are part of the T1 group that owns T1, don't expect them to move any time soon (LH and JL are the other two airlines that are part of the group).
 
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OA412
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:27 am

I'm surprised by this news. I thought that the original estimates didn't have go-ahead on phase II until near the end of this decade.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 5):
Is there going to be a bus from T4 check-in to the new regional gates? It is a 0.75 mile walk.

I don't think that they ever mentioned a bus service to the regional gates, just the bus connecting T2 and T4. I'd wager that unless the elites in New York pitch a fit, they won't and will just make everyone walk/use the moving walkways.

Quoting rwsea (Reply 15):
Rather than keep T2, why doesn't DL add another "finger" off of T4 concourse B (in the direction of where T2/3 are now)? Seems that having everything in one, state of the art terminal is preferable to two terminals connected by a bus. Would simplify connections and give everyone an equally good experience.

I don't know if you remember, but that was the original intent way back when DL first discussed a new JFK terminal pre-9/11. T3 and T2 were going to be torn down to make way for an additional concourse off of T4. I suppose it's always possible for them to revisit that idea, but I doubt that would happen in the near future.
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deltal1011man
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:25 am

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 19):

will also depend on how big T4A is and if they could get all the other T4 carriers out.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 17):
Will it be as long as Concourse D in Miami?

I think that is a bit longer. Also pretty sure the Delta terminal at DTW is longer(but does have a tram.)

Thankfully T4 is getting moving walkways which help. (much like CVG)

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
I don't know if you remember, but that was the original intent way back when DL first discussed a new JFK terminal pre-9/11. T3 and T2 were going to be torn down to make way for an additional concourse off of T4. I suppose it's always possible for them to revisit that idea, but I doubt that would happen in the near future.

close.
The JFK-2000 plan was for T4B to be expanded and some how 10 gates to be added to T2.....no idea how that was gong to work out.
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questions
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:34 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
I don't know if you remember, but that was the original intent way back when DL first discussed a new JFK terminal pre-9/11. T3 and T2 were going to be torn down to make way for an additional concourse off of T4.

I don't remember this. Do you have a photo or link to the plan? This is the one I have from the Leo Mullin days.

 
FoxBravo
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:19 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
I don't think that they ever mentioned a bus service to the regional gates, just the bus connecting T2 and T4. I'd wager that unless the elites in New York pitch a fit, they won't and will just make everyone walk/use the moving walkways.

I agree. Those regional flights carry more connecting traffic than O&D. Most NY pax (especially elites) going to any of those regional destinations will use LGA. So between that, and the relatively small capacity of the RJs, I would imagine the number of passengers who need to walk all the way from check-in to the end of the concourse is fairly small, and compared to other major hub airports it's really not so far anyway.
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ZBA2CGX
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 24):
I don't know if you remember, but that was the original intent way back when DL first discussed a new JFK terminal pre-9/11. T3 and T2 were going to be torn down to make way for an additional concourse off of T4. I suppose it's always possible for them to revisit that idea, but I doubt that would happen in the near future.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 25):
The JFK-2000 plan was for T4B to be expanded and some how 10 gates to be added to T2.....no idea how that was gong to work out.

Does anyone have pictures or layouts of how the extension off of T4 into the former T2 space was suppose to look like?

Quoting questions (Reply 26):
I don't remember this. Do you have a photo or link to the plan? This is the one I have from the Leo Mullin days.

thanks, probably would have had difficulty with pushback for those jets on the end of T4B into the taxi way.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:37 pm

Actually, that one you have there was a better, more expensive job.

Notice the headhouse was actually extended to accomodate thousands of new passengers a day

When they re announced this plan, I immediately noticed, the head house would not be extended at all.

Small expansions of baggage processing areas, etc.

But that is all ground level stuff. The expensive stuff...with glass walls and soaring ceilings will not be touched. Instead, they took away the club area for security and build within existing walls
 
bizjet
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:00 pm

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 29):
Notice the headhouse was actually extended to accomodate thousands of new passengers a day

When they re announced this plan, I immediately noticed, the head house would not be extended at all.

Small expansions of baggage processing areas, etc.

But that is all ground level stuff. The expensive stuff...with glass walls and soaring ceilings will not be touched. Instead, they took away the club area for security and build within existing walls

I think the headhouse structure itself is plenty big. They did make several critical, expensive improvements:

- Building an expanded, centralized security checkpoint that involved adding a floor over part of the shopping mall. I'm not positive, but to my naked eye it looks like the new checkpoint will be the biggest at JFK, bigger than T8 and T5.

- Building an in-line bag screening system to improve traffic flow, processing time, and finally get rid of the CTX machines piling up in the lobby

- Adding a new domestic baggage claim hall, since T4 will now be getting more domestic traffic than anticipated when first designed

With that, I think the headhouse itself is in good shape for the traffic it will see. The ticketing hall is already enormous, as is the shopping mall.
 
apodino
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:55 pm

Are the RJ gates going to be capable of segregating passengers so arrival could be routed into the FIS? I ask this because DL is launching YQB in May, and YQB does not have a US preclear facility.
 
LXA340
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:09 pm

What I don't understand from where will the extra space be taken for imigration counters and baggage belts?
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:19 am

Quoting bizjet (Reply 20):
I was wondering that too. I believe Gate 23/25 at T2 has 17 RJ stands as you say, plus Gate 18 in the T3 saucer is used for RJs.

Gate 19 in T2, the main gate to catch the airside buses to T3/T4, also doubles as a bus gate for hardstand RJ flights during the evening rush.
 
bizjet
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:01 am

Quoting phatfarmlines (Reply 33):
Gate 19 in T2, the main gate to catch the airside buses to T3/T4, also doubles as a bus gate for hardstand RJ flights during the evening rush.

Where are the RJ hardstands located?
 
questions
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:07 am

Will phase one T4 changes open at one time in May or will it open in phases? For example will updates to the lobby, check-in, security be completed prior to the concourse extension and new Sky Club?
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting bizjet (Reply 34):

Look at the picture in reply 2, in the upper left corner you can see T1 and T2. At the end of T2 you can see the RJ stands.
 
bizjet
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 36):
Look at the picture in reply 2, in the upper left corner you can see T1 and T2. At the end of T2 you can see the RJ stands.

Sorry for being unclear. Yes, those are the RJ hardstands accessible by walkways from Gates 23 / 25.

The above poster was talking about using a bus in peak times from gate 19 to a remotely parked RJ. My question is where are the a/c parked that require taking a bus from gate 19.
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:21 am

Quoting bizjet (Reply 37):

I believe he is taking about the RJ hard stands on the corner of T3 and taxiway LL.
 
kaitak744
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:12 am

Quoting questions (Reply 26):

Hey!!!!!

Where did you get that?

I made that plan on photoshop about 3 years ago.

That is my concept. Long before anything by Delta was put out.
 
questions
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting kaitak744 (Reply 39):
Hey!!!!!

Where did you get that?

I made that plan on photoshop about 3 years ago.

That is my concept. Long before anything by Delta was put out.

I thought that was the plan from Delta's October 2000 announcement. Apologies to all for the bad info.

Does anyone have the photo that shows the plan for Delta's Leo Mullin-era $1.6B JFK expansion announced in October 2000? Highlights:
- T2 - 10 additional gates
- T3 - demolish
- T4 - 1.5M sq feet of additional space; 26 additional gates; separate arrivals hall; T2-T4 connector with moving sidewalks
 
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STT757
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 40):
Does anyone have the photo that shows the plan for Delta's Leo Mullin-era $1.6B JFK expansion announced in October 2000? Highlights:

I used to have the New York Times Article cut out that had a rendering. If you look it must be online somewhere.
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panamair
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:38 pm

Official press release about the new T4 extension Phase II:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...ines-port-authority-160000145.html
 
william
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:44 pm

It mentions the addition of dual taxiways, I thought JFK had dual taxiways already.
 
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OA412
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting questions (Reply 26):

I believe that's one that someone on this site designed as a possibility. The Leo Mullin plan had T2 being expanded a bit to a sort of modified L-shaped design, and a brand new concourse extension off of T4, not a lengthening of the existing concourse.

Quoting ZBA2CGX (Reply 28):

Unfortunately I do not. As STT mentioned, the NYT had an article with a picture, but I haven't seen that in years. I'm sure it's floating around somewhere on the internet.
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mayor
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:09 pm

Quoting cokepopper (Reply 2):

Ok.....from this rendering, which includes the addition of phase II, I assume that the longer concourse on T-4 is Concourse "A"? Except for the flights out of T-2, will DL be operating out of Concourse "B" of T-4, at all? Seems like DL could move their ops in T-2 to this concourse and whoever is displaced could move to T-2, but maybe that's too simplistic.
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FoxBravo
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 45):

Ok.....from this rendering, which includes the addition of phase II, I assume that the longer concourse on T-4 is Concourse "A"? Except for the flights out of T-2, will DL be operating out of Concourse "B" of T-4, at all? Seems like DL could move their ops in T-2 to this concourse and whoever is displaced could move to T-2, but maybe that's too simplistic.

No, the concourses are other way around. The newly expanded one (on the left in the rendering posted by cokepopper in reply #2), which will have the new RJ concourse at the end in Phase II, is Concourse B. Concourse A is the one on the right, and currently only exists up to the "dogleg" in the rendering. Phase III would be the addition of the new sections shown in the rendering.

DL will initially only be operating out of Concourse B, not Concourse A. And three gates in Concourse B will still be shared with other airlines. The problem with your idea, which might work from a capacity perspective, is that almost all of the airlines using T4 are international, but T2 does not have customs/immigration.

However, if/when Concourse A is expanded, then DL should be able to consolidate all of its ops at T4. I suppose another possibility would be if T8 were expanded to its original plan, allowing BA to move in and free up space at T7 for some of the airlines currently using T4.
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mayor
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:31 pm

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 46):

Ok....thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm used to a more logical designation of the concourses, i.e. first one you come to would be "A", next "B", etc., much as is done at SLC, ORD, MEM, ATL, etc.
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MaverickM11
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:52 pm

Billions dropped on JFK and a zillion shuttle busses. Ooook. I understand they're making lemonade out of lemons but that was the best solution?
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FoxBravo
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RE: JFK Terminal 4 Phase II Expansion Approved

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 47):

Ok....thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm used to a more logical designation of the concourses, i.e. first one you come to would be "A", next "B", etc., much as is done at SLC, ORD, MEM, ATL, etc.

That's pretty much how it is for passengers using T4--after checking in, the A concourse is to your left and the B concourse is to your right. Like reading a book--seems fairly logical to me.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 48):
Billions dropped on JFK and a zillion shuttle busses. Ooook. I understand they're making lemonade out of lemons but that was the best solution?

Not that many people will ever need to take a shuttle bus in this arrangement. Any NY originating pax will go directly to T4 or T2, either depending on their destination or by checking online. It's just for pax transferring between international and domestic flights. In a couple of years when the RJ concourse opens it will be even fewer. Building a very long walkway as a short-term solution would be pretty wasteful--and not necessarily more user-friendly than a shuttle bus that runs back and forth every few minutes.
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire