richierich
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DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:12 pm

AFAIK, DL has already taken delivery of some ex-FL B717s and the agreement was three per month until AirTran's sizable fleet was diminished. I know it might take a while to repaint/refit the aircraft into DL's colors and interior, and there will surely be a few proving flights by Delta crew, but what's the story?

When are the first DL B717s expected in-service and which routes are we likely to see them on first?
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jporterfi
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:15 pm

I thought the 717s weren't going to be introduced until August...can anyone confirm that?
 
richierich
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 1):
I thought the 717s weren't going to be introduced until August...can anyone confirm that?

If that's true, maybe I'm a few months off. When are the first handovers taking place - and, just curious if anybody knows - is there a rhyme or reason to the order in which they are going to DL?
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southwest737500
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting richierich (Reply 2):

There schedule to take place starting in late September I believe
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:35 pm

DL has not taken delivery of any 717s yet. Yes, planning internally is well underway but the aircraft will not be on property before August.

DL will start to receive the 717s from FL (WN) starting in August 2013 at a rate of 3 per month.

October 2013 is the targeted start date for revenue flights.

The first scheduled flights and pilot base will be ATL. No schedules have been loaded or routes announced for the 717. The first routes will almost certainly be routes out of ATL that currently or recently have had DC-9-50 service. (e.g. short, mainline flights).

After ATL, DTW is supposed to be the next hub to see 717 flying. At first these will likely be bridged through, but by late 2014/early 2015 when the fleet is sufficiently large, they will probably open a DTW 717 pilot base.

[Edited 2013-02-07 11:35:58]
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting richierich (Thread starter):
DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?  

Still flying for AirTran......   

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 1):
I thought the 717s weren't going to be introduced until August...can anyone confirm that?
Quoting richierich (Reply 2):
If that's true, maybe I'm a few months off. When are the first handovers taking place - and, just curious if anybody knows - is there a rhyme or reason to the order in which they are going to DL?

That's when Delta is supposed to start receiving them, but they have to do proving runs with the type before putting them into revenue service, so the late September timeframe mentioned in Reply 3 sounds like the likely entry into service date.

I'm guessing that Southwest will start removing 717s from AirTran's fleet by late Spring, as Southwest will be repainting the a/c into DL colors as well as redoing the cabin to DL standards. As for what a/c will be the first to be pulled from the FL fleet, perhaps the earliest deliveries will be the first to go.
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:42 pm

They will be flying in scheduled service with DAL on Sept 1. They will start arriving in August.
 
B757Forever
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:12 pm

My understanding is that the first aircraft will leave the FL fleet in March 2013 and go into mods with anticipated DL service startup in September 2013.
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kgaiflyer
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting jporterfi (Reply 1):

I thought the 717s weren't going to be introduced until August...can anyone confirm that?

As of last Saturday night, 717s were still arriving / departing BWI.

So they haven't all left FL yet.
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:54 am

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The first scheduled flights and pilot base will be ATL. No schedules have been loaded or routes announced for the 717. The first routes will almost certainly be routes out of ATL that currently or recently have had DC-9-50 service. (e.g. short, mainline flights).

After ATL, DTW is supposed to be the next hub to see 717 flying.

Any word on how Delta will use the 717 from LGA? I can easily imagine DL doing MHT, BUF, and plenty of other destinations on the 717 from LGA. I hope they turn the airport into a 717 hub!
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:09 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 8):
So they haven't all left FL yet.

Don't think any have left FL yet, the move to DL will begin in August.
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting B757forever (Reply 7):
My understanding is that the first aircraft will leave the FL fleet in March 2013 and go into mods with anticipated DL service startup in September 2013.

Not sure what the exact timeline looks like from the point when FL withdraws them from service, and maintenance/mod work is performed, when the aircraft will be repainted, and when the new interiors will be installed.

The aircraft will officially change hands to DL in August. Sometime in September or October EIS, depending on the source of information.

Quoting Schweigend (Reply 9):
Any word on how Delta will use the 717 from LGA? I can easily imagine DL doing MHT, BUF, and plenty of other destinations on the 717 from LGA. I hope they turn the airport into a 717 hub!

There is no official word. The story thats been communicated is 717s will primarily be at ATL and DTW, and MSP & LGA to a lesser extent. What that means exactly, has not been formally communicated. Again we are looking a transiton of 3 aircraft/month extending out over a 2.5 year period.

The priority for LGA is to get the 50 seaters out of there as demand allows, replacing with CR7/9, E70/5 aircraft. Some selective mainline additions as the market allows. I would not look for a huge amount of LGA 717 flying though. The primary goal is to swap out capacity on high frequency short haul routes which are primarily out of ATL and DTW. LGA just doesn't have the frequency in most markets to do that.
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:34 am

I flew on one of these birds from MCO to ATL last month. FL has not kept up the interiors at all. The seats are in awful shape, frayed, nicks and dings all over the place. I'm sure DL will gut the interiors and they'll look like new aircraft.
Looking forward to flying on a cleaned up 717.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:28 am

Quoting richierich (Thread starter):
DL's colors and interior, and there will surely be a few proving flights by Delta crew, but what's the story?

We've proved we can do it with over 40+ years of DC9 experience. Same plane.
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:22 pm

Quoting quickmover (Reply 12):
I flew on one of these birds from MCO to ATL last month. FL has not kept up the interiors at all. The seats are in awful shape, frayed, nicks and dings all over the place. I'm sure DL will gut the interiors and they'll look like new aircraft.

There was no point in spending $1 on updating the interiors on AirTran/SWA's side because the planes were definitely leaving the fleet by 2015/16 when the acquisition took place. That timeline shrank to what it is currently when SWA decided that the engine maintenance on the 717 was too costly compaired to the 737.

SWA, not delta, will be paying for the gutting of the interiors and making them look like brand new aircraft for Delta. That's how badly they want them gone.
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:58 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 13):
We've proved we can do it with over 40+ years of DC9 experience. Same plane.Made from jets!

Very true. And since all 20,000+ flight attendants are already qualified on the DC9/MD88/MD90 aircraft there should be not classroom trainingrequired. Probably just a Computer Based Training module since all the doors operate the same. GREAT savings on training costs!
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:07 pm

Quote:
jetjack74, reply 13
... over 40+ years of DC9 experience. Same plane.

The 717 looks like the DC9, will probability work and feel like the DC9 but, unfortunatey, will not fly as long as the DC9. The DC9-10 thru -50 are rated for 100,000 flight hours but, the 717 is rated for only 60,000 flight hours. In airline operation this is about 20-25 years. I look forward to the 717 coming to DL.
DC9-10 thru -50 100,000 flight hours
MD90 90,000 flight hours
717 60,000 flight hours
MD80 50,000 flight hours
The numbers are from Part 121.1115 dated 14 Jan 2011.
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atlengineer
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting selmer40 (Reply 16):
The 717 looks like the DC9, will probability work and feel like the DC9 but, unfortunatey, will not fly as long as the DC9. The DC9-10 thru -50 are rated for 100,000 flight hours but, the 717 is rated for only 60,000 flight hours. In airline operation this is about 20-25 years. I look forward to the 717 coming to DL.
DC9-10 thru -50 100,000 flight hours
MD90 90,000 flight hours
717 60,000 flight hours
MD80 50,000 flight hours
The numbers are from Part 121.1115 dated 14 Jan 2011.

See this link to the new FAA Widespread Fatigue Damage (WFD) rules that are to be complied with by July 14, 2013:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/2/

The numbers you list are not consistent with Figure 6 of that report. From Figure 6, the B717 has cycle limits of 110,000 and flight hour limits of 110,000. The cycle and hour limits are the same as the DC-9, and cycle limits are greater than 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787, and equal to MD-80/90. That says the 717's can be around a long time if they remain economically feasible.

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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:59 pm

Quoting atlengineer (Reply 17):
The numbers you list are not consistent with Figure 6 of that report. From Figure 6, the B717 has cycle limits of 110,000 and flight hour limits of 110,000. The cycle and hour limits are the same as the DC-9, and cycle limits are greater than 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787, and equal to MD-80/90. That says the 717's can be around a long time if they remain economically feasible.

Doesn't the chart you are referring to say "Anticipated"? Meaning they are submitting these to the FAA for approval, but it the regulators haven't approved it.
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:12 am

Quoting atlengineer (Reply 17):
See this link to the new FAA Widespread Fatigue Damage (WFD) rules that are to be complied with by July 14, 2013:
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...q4/2/
Quoting clemsonaj (Reply 18):
Doesn't the chart you are referring to say "Anticipated"? Meaning they are submitting these to the FAA for approval, but it the regulators haven't approved it.

14 CFR 121.1115 was just put in place as of 9/7/12 and at that time, there were not yet any substantiated LOVs from the manufacturers and thus, they specified a Default LOV as shown in Tables 1 and 2 of the regulation. Since then, Boeing has received approval for their Group 1 aircraft (Figure 5 in the article) and the Group 2 and 3 aircraft (Figure 6 including the 717) has not yet been determined and submitted to the FAA for approval. However, they anticipate them to be as shown in Figure 6. All of which are indeed different than the Default LOV in the regulation.

So, we don't yet know the final LOV for the 717, but I suspect should be as Boeing anticipates as they are similar to the DC-9/MD-80 numbers.
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antoniemey
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:48 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 4):
The first scheduled flights and pilot base will be ATL. No schedules have been loaded or routes announced for the 717. The first routes will almost certainly be routes out of ATL that currently or recently have had DC-9-50 service. (e.g. short, mainline flights).

I'm looking forward to seeing them in BNA.

Quoting selmer40 (Reply 16):
The DC9-10 thru -50 are rated for 100,000 flight hours but, the 717 is rated for only 60,000 flight hours. In airline operation this is about 20-25 years.

Flight hours, or flight cycles? Vastly different things, though related, somewhat. Also, both can be extended with the proper checks and paperwork, IF the carrier thinks it's worth it.

Quoting atlengineer (Reply 17):
The numbers you list are not consistent with Figure 6 of that report. From Figure 6, the B717 has cycle limits of 110,000 and flight hour limits of 110,000. The cycle and hour limits are the same as the DC-9, and cycle limits are greater than 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787, and equal to MD-80/90.

The frame essentially IS a DC-9, after all...

Quoting atlengineer (Reply 17):
That says the 717's can be around a long time if they remain economically feasible.

Which, sadly, they probably won't. We'll see them heading out with the 737NG's and Original engine A320s sometime next decade.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:44 am

To the OP, the EIS remains consistent with previous projections (Sept-Nov). Nothing new to comment here than what was shared on the previous thread.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 20):
The frame essentially IS a DC-9, after all...

It is certainly close it in terms of durability. A primary difference: The DC-9 did not have composite panels in its frame. Nor did it have the various aerodynamic, electrical, and flight control improvements that surrounded it.

Quoting selmer40 (Reply 16):
The 717 looks like the DC9, will probability work and feel like the DC9 but, unfortunatey, will not fly as long as the DC9.

At present, following the compliance of the recent AD, the DL 717s will largely remain airworthy for another 15 years. Possible exceptions will be the oldest 20-30 frames. Which I predict will have been back-filled and supplement by younger frames, as they become available in the coming years.

If the 717s certified limits are updated to 110k cycles and flight hours, the 717 very well may become the future DC9 at DL. That is, if RA holds post for a few more years and his successor follows a similar strategy. (Which is likely if RA retires at a profitable DL while underling is groomed).

The re-certification will come down to opportunity cost and investment. Ultimately, it is all on DL.   

Quoting selmer40 (Reply 16):
DC9-10 thru -50 100,000 flight hours
MD90 90,000 flight hours
717 60,000 flight hours
MD80 50,000 flight hour

With 60/90k, cycles/hours, the MD-90 stands as the MDC aircraft type that can remain the longest operational. It is estimated that the used MD-90s DL has acquired can remain operational for 20 more years. This is given by their significantly low cycle/flight hour records.

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 20):
uoting atlengineer (Reply 17):
That says the 717's can be around a long time if they remain economically feasible.

Which, sadly, they probably won't. We'll see them heading out with the 737NG's and Original engine A320s sometime next decade.

Respectfully, I strongly disagree. Some things go beyond what may seem conventional wisdom. But expect the 717 to remain a significant workforce in the DL fleet post 2023. In the near term, its the older A320s that will impacted the most.

The economics for the 717 are very favorable for it's target network, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. The fuel efficiency of the aircraft was never the problem, nor the reason the 717 failed in the market. Given the short routes, basement low ownership costs post 2017, and low MX costs - the fuel efficiency economics should not be an issue until oil is well above $150 a barrel.

In short, if you're expecting the 717 to be retired & phased-out during the 2020-23 time-frame, I think you will eventually be proven wrong.

Quoting atlengineer (Reply 17):
From Figure 6, the B717 has cycle limits of 110,000 and flight hour limits of 110,000. The cycle and hour limits are the same as the DC-9, and cycle limits are greater than 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, 787, and equal to MD-80/90. That says the 717's can be around a long time if they remain economically feasible.

   Absolutely. Everything is fluid, and it is early...

But I predict DL will begin buying the 717s and owning outright, as they begin to come off lease in 2017. During this time, a large number will be acquired secondhand as well. While the majority will be used for active service, some will be parted out prematurely to fortify the long term future of the greater fleet. An active fleet of 100-120 frames.
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antoniemey
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:19 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 21):
Respectfully, I strongly disagree. Some things go beyond what may seem conventional wisdom. But expect the 717 to remain a significant workforce in the DL fleet post 2023. In the near term, its the older A320s that will impacted the most.

By "sometime next decade" I meant between 2020 and 2030, not "within 10 years"
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:01 pm

Quoting antoniemey (Reply 22):
By "sometime next decade" I meant between 2020 and 2030, not "within 10 years"

Really? I guess the implication seemed otherwise.

So if they're retired in 2030, you wouldn't consider that as operating for a "long time"? Your words, not mine... For these aircraft, 15+ years would be more than a "mid-term" solution. Even a C-series replacement will probably be available by then.
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antoniemey
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:30 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 23):
So if they're retired in 2030, you wouldn't consider that as operating for a "long time"?

It all depends on what you're comparing them against, and whether you're reading my statement in parts or as a whole. These aircraft range between 7 and 14 years of age. The older models will likely not be in service more than 10 years from now. But if the younger frames make it to ~2030, they will have operated about 25 years, which is not outside the normal range for a commercial aircraft. And, as I said, I expect that they will be retired in the same timeframe as the 737NGs and A320s, because they have the same generation of engine technology.
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wedgetail737
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:16 pm

It's too bad. I was kind of hoping some of those 717's would make it out to the west coast to replace OO on some of the newer LAX routes like SEA, SJC, SMF or OAK.
 
L1011
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:30 pm

Several months ago I flew on an AirTran 717 with blue leather seats. Since then, all the 717s I've flown on had the original cloth seats. Did they decide to discontinue the changeover to leather when they decided to sell them to Delta? How many 717s have the leather seats? Do any of their 737s have them?

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davescj
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:04 pm

With the length of time DL has before 60K flight cycles comes up, A and B will have had time to develop new composites, new craft, and new engines/fuel could be developed.

While we all know the 787 has had issues (ditto the A380), they are also the beginning of new concepts in air travel. I think the development will continue towards fuel efficiency, etc.

Dave
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 21):
The economics for the 717 are very favorable for it's target network, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. The fuel efficiency of the aircraft was never the problem, nor the reason the 717 failed in the market. Given the short routes, basement low ownership costs post 2017, and low MX costs - the fuel efficiency economics should not be an issue until oil is well above $150 a barrel.

Yeah, I mean heck here we are in 2013 and DL is still flying DC-9-50s on many of these routes.

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 25):
It's too bad. I was kind of hoping some of those 717's would make it out to the west coast to replace OO on some of the newer LAX routes like SEA, SJC, SMF or OAK.

717s will not be in LAX.
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:39 am

Quoting L1011 (Reply 26):

Several months ago I flew on an AirTran 717 with blue leather seats. Since then, all the 717s I've flown on had the original cloth seats. Did they decide to discontinue the changeover to leather when they decided to sell them to Delta? How many 717s have the leather seats? Do any of their 737s have them?

You sure you weren't in first class with the leather seats and coach with cloth? That's been the layout with FL's 717's since delivered: first class - leather; coach - fabric.
 
L1011
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:43 am

No, it was in coach. I know that the business class seats have been leather for quite a while, but I was surprised to see that the coach seats were also leather on that plane. Looking in my records, I think it was aircraft N985AT on 8/22/11.

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UGA777
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:56 am

Some of the FL 717s and 737s were converted to blue leather in coach, but I believe that process stopped because the 717s will be going to Delta and 737s to Southwest interior gradually over the next year or two.
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:02 pm

Quoting UGA777 (Reply 31):
Some of the FL 717s and 737s were converted to blue leather in coach, but I believe that process stopped because the 717s will be going to Delta and 737s to Southwest interior gradually over the next year or two.

The deal clearly stated that WN will gut the 717 interiors with new glalleys, sidewalls, carpets and seats at WN's expense prior to delivery.
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southwest737500
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:45 am

I'm a huge 717 fan In keeping my fingers crossed that DL will bring it here! We have about 4 daily DC-9-50 flights a day. Sometimes 5.

Anyone think TUL,XNA,OKC,ICT,MYR,GRR,TLH,PNS, MLB, CLT have a chance of getting some 717

[Edited 2013-02-12 16:46:55]
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:00 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 32):
The deal clearly stated that WN will gut the 717 interiors with new glalleys, sidewalls, carpets and seats at WN's expense prior to delivery.

That's pretty well established and understood... I think what the poster was saying was that it doesn't make sense for WN/FL to make any further changes or adjustments to the cabin since they'll all be outfitted per DL specs.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:19 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 33):
Anyone think TUL,XNA,OKC,ICT,MYR,GRR,TLH,PNS, MLB, CLT have a chance of getting some 717

All of those, plus quite a few more, will likely receive the DL 717 at some point.
 
quickmover
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:29 am

I wonder if they would ever consider coming back to Columbia, MO with a 717?
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:17 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 32):
The deal clearly stated that WN will gut the 717 interiors with new glalleys, sidewalls, carpets and seats at WN's expense prior to delivery.

That's dead on. Southwest was so desperate to rid of the 717's, it agreed to incur the entire costs on each aircraft for whatever maintenance check is current - and, as the poster states, overhauling the cabin interiors to Delta specs along with painting the aircraft.
 
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting quickmover (Reply 36):

I wonder if they would ever consider coming back to Columbia, MO with a 717?

They will most likely be used in markets that now have multiple flights on CRJs, where DL can reduce frequency but not give up seats.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:37 am

Quoting southwest737500 (Reply 33):
Anyone think TUL,XNA,OKC,ICT,MYR,GRR,TLH,PNS, MLB, CLT have a chance of getting some 717

Yes. I would say they will all end up with a 717 flight from ATL at some point.
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RE: DL Boeing 717s, Where Are They?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:28 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 32):

I understand that. If you read my original post, I was stating that FL is not converting any of the 717s to blue leather anymore because the interiors are going to be redone when they go to Delta anyways.

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