sxb
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:25 pm

AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:27 am

Source: http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...e-puts-cityjet-up-for-sale-382066/

"Air France has put its regional subsidiary CityJet up for sale and has shortlisted six potential investors."

Any idea what kind of investors would get onboard? Potential airlines?
SXB
 
vfw614
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:10 am

I cannot open your link, but it must be an old article.

This has been known for months (if not longer) and AF is already down to a shortlist of 6 or so potential buyers and will whittle it down to two preferred bidders over the coming weeks, one with an airline background and one with an investment background.
 
sxb
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:25 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:32 am

Ok, then the only new element seems to be the calendar with a May or June target for the sale.

"The Ireland-headquartered carrier says that this number will be whittled down to two by the end of March, with both prospective buyers then being asked to submit final bids with a view to a new owner being announced by May or June."

Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?
SXB
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:58 am

AF has been keen to sell WX for sometime now. This isn’t surprising given WX generated a collective net loss of EUR€226m/USD$312m between 2007 and 2011.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 9986
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:01 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 2):
Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?

FlyBe would be fools not to look - I mean who would turn down the chance to go over a competitor's books, but they would be fools to buy as well.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 20983
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:03 pm

This was the latest article :

The Irish Times - Wednesday, February 6, 2013
CityJet bidders whittled down

Air France-KLM Group wants to narrow the number of bidders for its CityJet unit to two by the end of next month after whittling down the group of possible suitors to six from 10, according to a person with knowledge of the talks.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...nance/2013/0206/1224329707317.html
 
BA174
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:55 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:42 pm

IAG/BA own 15% of BE, compeating with BA at LCY would be a bit of a conflict of interest.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 700
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting BA174 (Reply 6):
IAG/BA own 15% of BE, compeating with BA at LCY would be a bit of a conflict of interest.

There is very little overlap other than Edinburgh, Amsterdam and Zurich.
 
BA174
Posts: 289
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:55 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:17 pm

The things is that BA would probably want the slots for themselves not BE. I doubt the BE business model will be appealing at LCY anyways.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:54 pm

If BA took over WX, they would have a de facto monopoly at LCY with only five other established carriers - Swiss, Lufthansa, Luxair, Alitalia, Blue Islands - offering flights (to seven destinations)*. LCY then can only pray that BA will never loose interest in its BACF operation...

* I am discounting Sky Work and FlyNonstop that, sooner or later, will almost certainly disappear - and I am not sure if Blue Islands which I have included is a sure bet.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 700
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:23 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 9):
I am discounting Sky Work and FlyNonstop that, sooner or later, will almost certainly disappear - and I am not sure if Blue Islands which I have included is a sure bet.

I thought Skywork were doing quite well? They increased frequencies to 3 daily now.

It could be possible that once they sell WX maybe KL or AF would return to operate the route themselves. Could AerArran also operate to dublin for Aer Lingus? EI did previously fly to LCY.
 
Thomas_Jaeger
Posts: 2200
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:35 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 10):

I thought Skywork were doing quite well? They increased frequencies to 3 daily now.

They have increased to three times daily but are operating with Do328s instead of Dash 8-400s, so in practice have actually decreased capacity.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 700
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 11):
They have increased to three times daily but are operating with Do328s instead of Dash 8-400s, so in practice have actually decreased capacity.

I think it varies I'm sure I've seen the Dash 8 in there a few times in the past couple of weeks.
 
AIR MALTA
Posts: 1733
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2001 6:45 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:58 pm

What about BMI regional. I think their Business case would be better instead of operating BHX to LYS and BRS to HAM.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
sxb
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:25 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:06 pm

Is BA even profitable from LCY?
According to WX CEO (I attended one of her presentation last month), they aren't.
SXB
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 3936
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 2):
Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?

Aer Lingus by any chance?

That'd be an interesting one.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 700
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 14):
Is BA even profitable from LCY?
According to WX CEO (I attended one of her presentation last month), they aren't.

I think BA are. BA are known for dropping any unprofitable flights so I doubt they would bother if not making money. I don't think WX CEO knows.
 
sxb
Topic Author
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2008 1:25 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 15):
Aer Lingus by any chance?

Don't know, Aer Lingus just managed to turn back to profit and they already have quite a few challenges on their plate... don't think if it would be wise for them to buy an unprofitable airline.
In addition, WX fleet needs to be replaced... Aer Lingus doesn't really have the right aircrafts for that... On the other hand, FlyBe...
SXB
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 14):
Is BA even profitable from LCY?
According to WX CEO (I attended one of her presentation last month), they aren't.

Well he would say that wouldn't he? I am not sure if it's publically know whether CFE makes money or not, the point is they parked their tanks on WX lawn and won. The only route where CFE have blinked first is Dublin and the product is now much better than WX. The final part of the strategy of getting CFE into profit may be the removal of WX as a competitor.
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:42 pm

BA/IAG apply a very cold hard logic when it comes to approving capital expenditure and I don't think they would have approved a new fleet for BA CityFlyer unless they thought it could make a profit.

BA CityFlyer may or may not be profitable but its yields are certainly better than LHR short-haul. It is also a rare example of BA winning against the competition in the short-haul market in Europe. IAG has also said it's not interested in buying CityJet.

[Edited 2013-02-08 08:42:57]
 
vfw614
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 13):
What about BMI regional. I think their Business case would be better instead of operating BHX to LYS and BRS to HAM.

They would need a new fleet for that unless they would use the three E135 for LCY.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 15):
Aer Lingus by any chance? That'd be an interesting one.

I think they will be happy to not be taken over by Ryanair...

Quoting seansasLCY (Reply 10):
I thought Skywork were doing quite well? They increased frequencies to 3 daily now.

Well, they have just announced a cost-cutting program, axed jobs, begun chargin fuel surcharges, are under criticism to increasingly cancel flights at short notice. Most importantly, the guy who has funded the airline in the past, Rolex-heir Daniel Borer, has stepped down from his executive positions, saying that he has fulfiled his promise to fund the airline with up to 50m.

All we know is that a) Skywork is not profitable and b) it has apparently maxed out the amoutn of money the founder is willing to cough up. Make of that what you want.
 
User avatar
ClassicLover
Posts: 3936
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 12:27 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
Don't know, Aer Lingus just managed to turn back to profit and they already have quite a few challenges on their plate... don't think if it would be wise for them to buy an unprofitable airline.

True, though I'm sure Air France could offload it debt free... I could probably afford to buy it myself  

It will be interesting to see what happens, that's for sure!
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 9986
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:57 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
WX fleet needs to be replaced... Aer Lingus doesn't really have the right aircrafts for that... On the other hand, FlyBe...

FlyBe doesn't have suitable jet aircraft - the ERJ 175 and 195 are not certified for LCY ops, leaving just the Q400. Aer Lingus on the other hand has the ATR 72 through its regional partner, which is suitable.

Personally I don't see CityJet being a good fit for Aer Lingus, and FlyBe's situation right now would make a purchase highly risky - quite aside of the IAG interest. Even if they are given away for £0, debt free, plus funds transferred from advance ticket sales, the cost of taking on and restructuring the business is going to be significant.

One thing I am wondering is if this sale will include the possibility to continue flying services under contract on behalf of AFKLM into AMS/PAR and other destinations from LCY. Presumably if this is not an option then AFKLM will retain some of the slots in order to operate their own feeder services with Hop! and CityHopper.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
Pe@rson
Posts: 16001
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:29 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:26 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
WX fleet needs to be replaced

Of course, ownership costs will likely be zero now for the handful of aircraft that WX itself owns. And for those leased, which comprise most its total fleet, lease rates will clearly be very low. Given the nature of a lot of WX's operations, which revolves around business people and therefore has low utilisation (per 24 hours), it trades zero/low ownership costs with greater maintenance and fuel consumption (per hour flown) vis-a-vis a fleet of new or newer aircraft that would have to be depreciated (if not leased) and utilised more intensively to reduce the fixed costs of them per ASK. And this increased use may, depending upon the routes operated, achieve poor yields and seat factors, although if they at least covered the fixed costs... Perhaps WX's increasing move into leisure-type and thinner routes from LCY may help. Or for roughly the same utilisation as now, it would have to charge more or cut costs somewhere or charge the same as now but have lower margins. Difficult decisions with clearly numerous trade-offs.
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18831
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:51 pm

I can't see anyone willing to pay much for a fleet of fuel-hungry Avro RJs that most operators can't wait to replace, and aging Fokker 50s that most operators have already replaced.
 
greenjet
Posts: 869
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 9:59 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 18):
Well he would say that wouldn't he?

He is a she  
 
BestWestern
Posts: 6998
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:08 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 22):
One thing I am wondering is if this sale will include the possibility to continue flying services under contract on behalf of AFKLM into AMS/PAR and other destinations from LCY. Presumably if this is not an option then AFKLM will retain some of the slots in order to operate their own feeder services with Hop! and CityHopper.

Or, this could go the other way to sweeten the WX sale pie- increased flying on behalf of AF / KL - WX operate one route on behalf of KL, so there is the potential for one more. We could also see more AF flying from the UK regions to CDG to feed the AF hub, with risks shared.

The most obvious suitor is probably Flybe, but with the ryanflybegus concept floating, I'd say that flybe are totally distracted. I wonder if Turkish are interested?
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
airbuster
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:46 am

So how is KL going to fly it's AMS-LCY pax? Modify the E190? Order some E170s? Codeshare with FlyBe?
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
jamesontheroad
Posts: 388
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:52 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:11 pm

FlyBe have already gone through the experience of absorbing a loss-making regional airline with a (mostly) jet fleet - BA Connect. In the words of BE employee I overheard (head office, not crew) when BMI Regional was being prepared for sale, the experience of integrating one regional jet airline "almost killed" BE and they had no desire to go through it again.

I'd guess that BE couldn't do it on their own, especially given their recent financial performance. Besides, BE withdrew from LCY because the niche wasn't right for them or their semi-lo-co business model. But perhaps BE could partner with one of these rumoured investors to develop something here. BE have the expertise and are open to collaborations (see FlyBe Nordic or the regional flying contract for Olympic for two different examples). Given the need for specifically rated a/c and given the focus on business rather than a more mixed business-and-leisure market at LCY, it could be operated as a distinct brand...?
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 9986
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 26):
The most obvious suitor is probably Flybe, but with the ryanflybegus concept floating, I'd say that flybe are totally distracted.

At first glance perhaps, but the question is, can FlyBe afford the costs involved? My view is that the risk would be too great.

Quoting airbuster (Reply 27):
So how is KL going to fly it's AMS-LCY pax? Modify the E190? Order some E170s? Codeshare with FlyBe?

CityHoppers ERJ 190s can use LCY, alternately they could use the F70s.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
airbuster
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 29):

Though Fokker has done steep approach test with the 70/100, it's not certified.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
vfw614
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting airbuster (Reply 30):

Though Fokker has done steep approach test with the 70/100, it's not certified

The Fokker 70 is, it only requires a software update. It has served LCY in the past for AF - actually the Fokker 70 was replaced on theLCY-PAR runs by Cityjet RJ85s.
 
skipness1E
Posts: 3368
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:18 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting airbuster (Reply 30):
Though Fokker has done steep approach test with the 70/100, it's not certified.

More recently, Austrian Arrows was on LCY-VIE with the F70.
 
Eagleboy
Posts: 1699
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 2:29 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:37 pm

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 15):
Aer Lingus by any chance?
That'd be an interesting one.
Quoting sxb (Reply 17):
Don't know, Aer Lingus just managed to turn back to profit and they already have quite a few challenges on their plate... don't think if it would be wise for them to buy an unprofitable airline.

I agree, EI don't need to take on the task of refleeting and streamlining WX

Quoting sxb (Reply 2):
Which airline could be interested in CityJet? FlyBe?

Well apparently FR are going to bankroll FlyBe Ireland in the name of competion, why not ask them to bankroll a WX takeover too!!!!!!
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 7474
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:56 pm

I've taken CityJet several times, but never to fly to or from LCY. Instead I flew CDG-FLR. So what will happen with this route ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LHRFlyer
Posts: 685
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:50 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:23 am

FlyBe has ruled itself out of the bidding for CityJet:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ed-in-air-france-s-cityjet-1-.html

Quote:
Flybe Group Plc, Europe’s biggest regional airline, said it’s not in the running to buy Air France-KLM Group’s CityJet unit.

“We looked at it,” Jim French, Exeter, England-based Flybe’s chief executive officer, said in an interview in Dublin. “It didn’t appeal to us at all so we’re not interested.”

CityJet has “tired” equipment and would require too much capital spending, French said. The unit’s operations at London City airport, which it serves from more than 20 destinations across Europe, are also being squeezed by British Airways, and it’s not clear how long feeder flights into Air France’s Paris Charle de Gaulle hub would last after a sale, he said.
 
airbuster
Posts: 306
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:43 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:56 am

Thanks guys, I had my info wrong. I couldn't find any pics though.
FLY FOKKER JET LINE!
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 9986
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:51 pm

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 35):
it’s not clear how long feeder flights into Air France’s Paris Charle de Gaulle hub would last after a sale, he said.

Very interesting. That will significantly affect their value.


Dan  
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
nonrev
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:46 am

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:19 am

How many a/c do WX have based at LCY & how many overnight?
 
Thomas_Jaeger
Posts: 2200
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:35 pm

RE: AF Looking To Sell CityJet

Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:17 am

Taking next Monday as a random example, that would be the breakdown:
AMS: 3 AR8s
ANR: 2 F50s
CDG: 3 AR8s
DND: 1 D38
DUB: 3 AR8s
EDI: 3 AR8s
EIN: 1 F50
FLR: 1 AR8
LCY: 1 AR8, 1 D38
LUX: 1 F50
NCL: 1 AR8
NTE: 1 F50
NUE: 1 AR8
ORY: 2 F50s
RTM: 2 F50s
TRN: 1 AR8
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place