hovitzer
Topic Author
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Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:00 pm

Hello fellow A.netters,
If found it interesting enough for discussion.
A good friend of mine was shahing with me he's experience on at least two different LH services between TLV-FRA and TLV-MUC.
I answered that it ain't possible. As far as my memory calls, a commercial flight cannot go without the presence of a standard security movie including instructions for emergency evacuation, the location of emergency exits etc.
Nevertheless, It is not a story taking place at an untitled airline somewhere in the middle of nothing. It is Deustche Lufthansa - An airline with legacy, heritage and very strict regulations (worked for them for a while)...
The question then, as written in the title: Is it possible or is my friend begins to loose he's memory?
It is a serious issue at least because of the bet we made  
Apprreciate your attention,
Hovitzer.
 
a320fan
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:05 pm

I wouldn't think it is possible or legal, And I cant imagine LH breaching such serious legislation. I would put my money on your friend just not been observant.
Airliners flowen in: 737-700, 737-800, A320, A321, 777-300ER, 777-200ER, 777-300, 787-8, A330-200, Q300
 
KFlyer
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:13 pm

There is no need to have a safety movie I believe, as long as a crew member performs the safety instructions demo. In fact, had there been any such regulation, LCCs would never exist.
The opinions above are solely my own and do not express those of my employers or clients.
 
hovitzer
Topic Author
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 pm

Some safety demonstration is mandatory, However not the same for all airliners.
Any change to these standars leaving a specific country? In other words, can a country require "more" safety instructions or is it for the airline to regulate?
 
GLAGAZ
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:32 pm

Zero requirement for a movie as not all aircraft have TV's !!!  

Gaz
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
antonovman
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:53 pm

It is up to the purser if they want to do a "live" demo or one from the video screens. Purser will decide which to do. Probably it was done "live" on your flight as the video model didnt show the countries language
 
enginebird
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting hovitzer (Thread starter):
The question then, as written in the title: Is it possible or is my friend begins to loose he's memory?

I have been on dozens of LH flights and there has always been some kind of a safety demo, either live or a video. Very unlikely that they only skip the safety demo on legs to/from TLV...
 
Semaex
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:11 pm

I own a book about funny stories in aviation, and a passenger writes that once he was on a flight full of business travellers in the early morning.
The purser supposingly just said in the PA "you all know the instructions and are all tired, stressed and just want to read your newspapers, so I'll let you be".
This is supposed to have happened on a legacy too. Possible or just a story?
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
okay
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 7):

Anything is possible, but crew is required to give a safety briefing to the passengers before take off. More and more this is done over the IFE, but the traditional way is manual demonstration. Some airlines, even having safety video to show, makes their crews perform a manual demo once in a while so the crew members do not become too detached of it. I used to work for BY back in they day, and though we had safety videos, all flights operated on Wednesdays had to perform manual safety demonstration.

I flew LH a few months back and I recall them doing manual demo, even though they had monitors for IFE. I do not know what is their procedure, maybe all of the planes are not fitted with them so the airline has decided not to introduce a safety video in short haul fleet altogether.

okAY
 
71Zulu
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:22 pm

Somebody said they were on a late and rushed flight once and the FA did the seatbelts and exit door briefing and then after reaching 10,000 feet finished up with the oxygen mask. I guess this was legal since briefing was done before oxygen altitude.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 7):
Possible or just a story?

I would say possible back in the day....today? Highly doubtful.
Clickable links only please!
 
ZKCIF
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:00 pm

this is what I experienced in person.
I flew Lufthansa 744 FRA-GRU-EZE most probably June 18, 2007 (might be +-2 days, would need to check). When we departed FRA, it was alright.
When we departed GRU (Jun 19 (?)), we went to the runway without any demonstration at all and just took off.
The safety video started somewhere at FL100 and proceded in all the 4 languages as expected.
This was my 21st flight in life and I knew little about aviation at that time and I thought that it was allowed but now I am sure it is not.
I can swear the truthfulness of this story in court however unbelievable it seems.
Note. i am a huge fan of Lufthansa and I would never invent things about it.
Cheers
 
clewatcher
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:16 pm

I remember a time when not all airliners had tv's in them, and the one time I was on an airliners with tv's on them, they still did a live safety demonstration, but all this was before 2005 when i last flew.

now that most airlines have tv's on their aircraft, perhaps there is less incentive to do live deomonstrations, but perhaps the live demonstrations are refreshers to keep the flight attendants tuned up.
-Raymond
 
brilondon
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting enginebird (Reply 6):

I have been on dozens of LH flights and there has always been some kind of a safety demo, either live or a video. Very unlikely that they only skip the safety demo on legs to/from TLV...

I would suggest that there may not have been a video but some people don't pay attention and miss it. They only have to have a safety demonstration. I have been on LH on a flight between STR and DUS and they only did a live demo for the safety demo.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:30 pm

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 9):
Somebody said they were on a late and rushed flight once and the FA did the seatbelts and exit door briefing and then after reaching 10,000 feet finished up with the oxygen mask. I guess this was legal since briefing was done before oxygen altitude.

The oxygen demo must be done before 25,000'. I have seen this done on very short taxis, the first half of the safety video is played before take off, then the oxygen demo before 25,000', then life jackets before the over-water portion is flown.

Quoting hovitzer (Thread starter):
The question then, as written in the title: Is it possible or is my friend begins to loose he's memory?

As noted, it is quite plausible, as it would appear that LH does not have a Hebrew safety video, either spoken or sub-titled.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Polot
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:30 pm

Another thing you have to keep in mind is that while Y class might have PTVs in the seat in front of them, the business class seat design may require their PTVs to be stowed for take off so the crew has to do a manual safety demonstration or else C class won't get the required information. This was more of a problem with older designs, not so much today.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:42 pm

As others have said, there is no requirement to show a safety video, but there IS a requirement to do a safety demonstration. This demonstration can be done in form of a video, but can also be done manually.

LH's Israel services are now on narrowbody aircraft, and LH's narrowbody fleet does not have IFE of any sort. No PTVs, and no overhead screens either. They could not show a movie even if they wanted to.

I am sure that a manual safety demonstration was carried out on both of your friend's flights, but he may have missed it if he wasn't paying attention.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
wb556
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:56 pm

I flew CDG-LHR on a fairly late night AF flight about 5 years ago with absolutely no safety demo of any kind. The cabin crew just sat down, not even an announcement. We felt quite uneasy at the time, we fly all over the place all the time and this is the only time it's ever happened. Nobody else seemed bothered.
 
flyTPA
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:53 am

I have been fortunate enough to be on hundreds of airline flights in my life-too many to count. This scenario happened to me exactly once, and I still remember it vividly. In July of 1991 I flew on Alitalia LHR-FCO on an AB3. It was my first trip to Europe.

The flight was delayed and boarding was rushed. We taxied and took off-with no safety demo of any kind. My sister and I still remember the moment when we took off and looked at each other and said, "they didn't do the safety demo, did they?". We naively assumed it wasn't required in Italy like it was in the USA.

As we were still in a steep climb, one of the flight attendants (I'm assuming it was the purser) actually realized they forgot the demo and they made an announcement in Italian over the PA and the flight attendants got up to do the demo. I still remember the flight attendant in our section struggling to put on his jacket and stand in the aisle holding onto a seat for support so he wouldn't fall when we passed through turbulent air while he was trying to show us how to put our seat belts on without dropping the safety information card. Put your seats in an upright position for takeoff? Duh?!?! We're already in the air!

Nobody's perfect and I'm sure it wasn't the first time in airline history a crew "forgot" but to have it happen multiple times on an airline like Lufthansa on a single route just doesn't seem credible to me. I love Italy, Italians and their culture and I can see the passengers and crew laughing off a foible like this. I love Deutschland just as much and I'm sure that if it was happening consistently on a German airline that it would not continue without someone saying something. I speak 4 languages fluently and I've been on flights where the "summary" in a foreign language was condensed to the bare minimum (and usually played as a recording after the main demo in English and the carrier's native tongue), but it could be that your friend doesn't understand German or English well-the two languages that I'm sure the safety demo are presented in on every LH flight, regardless of the destination.
Signore e signori-benvenuti a bordo questo volo per l'Italia!
 
holzmann
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:05 am

Wow.

This reminds me of a recent DLH flight I took from FRA to IAD back last December. We were on one of the new 748s, perhaps YD, and there some was sort of glitch in getting the safety video to play. The FAs were quite puzzled, fiddling with the equipment and seemingly had no "Plan B." As the plane started to push, no safety video had been played. In the end, they found some spare seat belts and O2 masks and maybe a swim vest and did an impromptu presentation. It was done in German and English but the English didn't cover all of the German and even the German only covered 50% of the content covered in the video. I felt pretty embarrassed for Lufthansa.
 
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skygirl1990
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:23 am

I recall recently reading my law and seeing that the safety briefing can be skipped provided 'the pilot-in-command can be certain that all passengers are already well informed about the procedures'

Is this true for commercial as well, or just for private flights?
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:27 am

My brother travelled a few times on Pan Am and United MIA-GIG-GRU around the time of Pan Am's demise. He inists there was no safety demonstartion on the GIG-GRU sector. I'm thinking if this is true then it could only be because GIG-GRU has no local traffic. (Rights to the route as a tag on were needed before the mid 80's when all flights went to CGH). Since everyone boarded in MIA they'd all seen the demonstration already. I still think it's a little odd if true but that's the only explanation I can see for how it would be allowed.
 
hovitzer
Topic Author
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:16 am

May I thank you all for enlightening us with your past experiences.
The body of mine has finally admitted that he might not paid enough attention or some kind of other excuse.
Anyway, I won the bet and the A.net community has proved (again) it's exclusive professional leadership for commercial aviation.
Thank you all for participating.
Hovitzer.
 
skyguyB727
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:56 am

Quoting ZKCIF (Reply 10):
I flew Lufthansa 744 FRA-GRU-EZE most probably June 18, 2007 (might be +-2 days, would need to check). When we departed FRA, it was alright.
When we departed GRU (Jun 19 (?)), we went to the runway without any demonstration at all and just took off.
Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 20):
My brother travelled a few times on Pan Am and United MIA-GIG-GRU around the time of Pan Am's demise. He inists there was no safety demonstartion on the GIG-GRU sector. I'm thinking if this is true then it could only be because GIG-GRU has no local traffic.

That is correct. If no pax board at the intermediate stop, there is no need for another safety demo. If a small number of pax board at an intermediate stop (say two or three), they can be briefed individually by the F/A.

Quoting flyTPA (Reply 17):
The flight was delayed and boarding was rushed. We taxied and took off-with no safety demo of any kind.

That reminds me of a WN flight that I took PHX-LAS about six years ago. As the a/c taxied to the gate in PHX, I noticed the anti-collision beacons were not on. The pilots had forgotten to turn them on. As we taxied out and took off from PHX, the seat belt sign was still turned off. When we landed and taxied in at LAS, it was still turned off. The pilots admitted to me as I deplaned that they had forgotten it both times and hoped there was no FAA inspector onboard. It seemed pretty amazing to miss checklist items multiple times.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:11 am

Quoting holzmann (Reply 18):
This reminds me of a recent DLH flight I took from FRA to IAD back last December. We were on one of the new 748s, perhaps YD, and there some was sort of glitch in getting the safety video to play. The FAs were quite puzzled, fiddling with the equipment and seemingly had no "Plan B." As the plane started to push, no safety video had been played. In the end, they found some spare seat belts and O2 masks and maybe a swim vest and did an impromptu presentation. It was done in German and English but the English didn't cover all of the German and even the German only covered 50% of the content covered in the video. I felt pretty embarrassed for Lufthansa.

The rules only state that the demo needs to be done before take-off. Doing it before pushback is an option if you have time, but doing the demo/playing a video while the aircraft is taxiing is legal, and common.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
ZKCIF
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:22 am

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 22):
That is correct. If no pax board at the intermediate stop, there is no need for another safety demo. If a small number of pax board at an intermediate stop (say two or three), they can be briefed individually by the F/A.

That's the point in the story. LH could sell tickets for GRU-EZE, in the Y section, the plane was full, and more than 60% of the passengers flew just GRU-EZE, i.e. they boarded in GRU.

Meanwhile, in June 2010 we flew PER-GET-KAX on Skywest (Australian one, of course). On Fokker 50, there were some 28 folks doing PER-GET. In GET, they almost all disembarked, and 4 passengers left: my wife, my son, me and an Aussie guy; we all arrived from PER. There were TWO male flight attendants, and they were all smiles. one of them stood in front, did the demo, we applauded him, he, smiling ear to ear asked "would you like me to do it once more???"
 
Boeing744
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:48 am

I've certainly never been on a flight where the crew completely missed the safety demo.

The nearest thing to it, however, was on an AC Jazz Dash 8-100 on YVR-YYJ a few years ago. The FA began the demo with the standard recording, and made it about 50% of the way through while we were still at the gate. As she was going, however, the cabin door suddenly opened, and a new last-minute passenger was let on board. It seemed that the recording was simultaneously stopped when the door opened. Once the new passenger got on, she made an announcement (once we were taxiing), and said that she would have to restart the recording from the very beginning, and there wouldn't be time before we were in the air. She asked (in French) if anyone needed the rest of the demo in French - since no one said yes, she simply covered the remaining points herself, manually in English (took about 10 seconds, as opposed to the arduous recorded bilingual version). I thought she handled it very well, and it made sense under the circumstances.

The reveals another question, though. Are bilingual safety announcements mandatory in Canada, at least for Canadian carriers? I know of course Air Canada, WestJet and Air Transat will always make bilingual demonstrations, but I have never heard even a recorded French version while on a US carrier in Canada. Even flying to/from Montreal on United I haven't heard it. In my opinion they should be required to do it in French too if flying to Canada. A simple recording would suffice!
 
MUCFlieger
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:49 am

Are safety demonstration performed after a diversion with no new passengers boarding the aircraft?

Does the "rule" say that the demo has to be shown prior to every takeoff or flight ?
 
flyingalex
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:17 pm

Quoting MUCFlieger (Reply 26):
Are safety demonstration performed after a diversion with no new passengers boarding the aircraft?

They are not required, but may be done anyway. Depends on the airline, I would say.

Quoting MUCFlieger (Reply 26):
Does the "rule" say that the demo has to be shown prior to every takeoff or flight ?

As above. If no new passengers join the flight, the demo can be skipped. However, airlines may choose to do it anyway.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting MUCFlieger (Reply 26):
Are safety demonstration performed after a diversion with no new passengers boarding the aircraft?

I had forgotten that once I was on a USAir flight PHX-MCI that diverted to OMA. I wouldn't swear to it but I'm pretty sure there was no safety demo leaving OMA either. I only remember hearing an FA comment that 2 passengers were not reboarding before we left. I remember it being a very long taxi out with numerous other diverted planes ready to make the short hop all around us. I think we were all tired by that point and it was very late at night so I could easily be mistaken.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting skyguyB727 (Reply 22):
That is correct. If no pax board at the intermediate stop, there is no need for another safety demo. If a small number of pax board at an intermediate stop (say two or three), they can be briefed individually by the F/A.

The rules must be different in Canada, as a safety demo must be completed for every take-off regardless if they are the same passengers or not. In fact, if the flight is more than 4 hours, portions of the safety demo must be completed for landing .... and I would hope they would be the same passengers as during take-off!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
robsaw
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:07 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
The rules must be different in Canada, as a safety demo must be completed for every take-off regardless if they are the same passengers or not. In fact, if the flight is more than 4 hours, portions of the safety demo must be completed for landing ....

Yes, rules vary by country. Including which language(s) must as a minimum must be used in the briefing.

Only a verbal reminder of where the emergency exits are located is required before final descent after a flight of 4 hours or longer.
 
flyingalex
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:02 am

Quoting longhauler (Reply 29):
The rules must be different in Canada, as a safety demo must be completed for every take-off regardless if they are the same passengers or not. In fact, if the flight is more than 4 hours, portions of the safety demo must be completed for landing .... and I would hope they would be the same passengers as during take-off!
Quoting robsaw (Reply 30):

Yes, rules vary by country. Including which language(s) must as a minimum must be used in the briefing.

Only a verbal reminder of where the emergency exits are located is required before final descent after a flight of 4 hours or longer.

That's fascinating! I've never heard of such a rule anywhere else, so it must indeed be a Canadian specialty.

You learn something new every day...
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
bastew
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:08 am

Under EU JAR-OPS all european airlines are mandated to conduct a safety briefing before departure. It must include the location of the exits, seatbelt operation, brace position and oxygen operation.
 
toobz
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:47 am

Been on many DL Businesselite flights where the video was played but we couldn't take our video units out during taxi. So we never saw the video. Only heard it.

[Edited 2013-02-11 03:48:28]
 
bluewhale18210
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:09 am

Quoting toobz (Reply 33):
Been on many DL Businesselite flights where the video was played but we couldn't take our video units out during taxi. So we never saw the video. Only heard it.

But the FA certainly did the demonstrations in the aisles.
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
toobz
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RE: Is It Possible? LH Flights Without Safety Movie.

Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:59 am

Nope. Did not. But I have been on flights were they have.

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