skopsko
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:45 pm

I'm new to this forum, and this is my first post. Does anyone know when will Austrian replace their aging 767? When will Turkish replace their aging 340-300? I have flown on a brand new Turkish 330 from IAD to IST before, and the there's a significant difference in comfort between the new 330 and the old 340 now flying this route. Will Turkish ever switch to the 330 on this route?
 
TurkishWings
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:52 pm

TK's 340s will be replaced by 333s and 77Ws in the next few years and by then I think the IST-IAD market will be mature enough to handle 777s especially if they build a better partnership with UA via IAD.
Coffee - Tea or Me?
 
LAXintl
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:55 pm

The TK A340 fleet has been shrinking slowly.
2 examples left the fleet in 2012 as leases ended and a 3rd example is for sale.

For IAD, the A330 operates the route regularly - for example of last 14 flights - 7 have been on the A333, while other 7 were A340.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
skopsko
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:58 pm

LAXintl, where did you look up what planes operated the last 14 flights?
 
bgm
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:59 pm

 
skopsko
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:08 pm

Pozdrav bgm   I don't think that website is accurate. It also shows TK7 being flown by A319, B737, etc.
 
Semaex
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting skopsko (Reply 5):
I don't think that website is accurate

Blasphemy!  


Welcome to the forum.


On the topic of the OS 767s, I believe LH is waiting for an outcome of the practicability of 787 and/or A350 in regular service and then decide accordingly. Last I heard the 767s got new outfitting recently, so they are likely staying with the company for some more time.
Smart move by LH methinks, not to jump on the newest invention straight away. Let the competition test it out and choose the best afterwards.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
LOWS
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting skopsko (Thread starter):
Does anyone know when will Austrian replace their aging 767?

LH wants OS to return to profitability before they begin to order new Longhaul aircraft, and they are waiting to see how the 787 and A350 turn out.

Quoting Semaex (Reply 6):

On the topic of the OS 767s, I believe LH is waiting for an outcome of the practicability of 787 and/or A350 in regular service and then decide accordingly. Last I heard the 767s got new outfitting recently, so they are likely staying with the company for some more time.

  

And the new interiors are fantastic!
 
sweair
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:26 pm

788 is the smallest step from 763 so if size matters the A350 is a no go.
 
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Heavierthanair
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:51 pm

G'day

Quoting Semaex (Reply 6):
Smart move by LH methinks, not to jump on the newest invention straight away. Let the competition test it out and choose the best afterwards

They jumped on the 747-8i straight away, in hindsight that may not have been their best bet though     

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
LAXintl
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When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:05 pm

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Semaex
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 9):
They jumped on the 747-8i straight away, in hindsight that may not have been their best bet though
Hah I knew somebody would come up with this argument (or the A380 or 737classic), but the matter of the fact is that LH wanted these aircraft even before they were built, so they were actively working together with Airbus/Boeing at the time.
I don't think that is the case with the A350 and/or 787. Gotcha  

[Edited 2013-02-09 10:29:33]
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
skopsko
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:26 pm

Well, I've avoided flying OS to Vienna because of those old 767. I just don't think it's a comfortable ride. They may never be profitable unless they invest in a better product. The updated cabin, while improved, looks very retro. I loved the original A330 that OS used to fly to IAD. I don't understand why they sold those and kept the 767.
 
sweair
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:38 pm

The 767 has one thing that it excels at, 2-3-2 SK used to have 767s and I loved them, such comfortable rides, compared to the old DC10s 2-5-2 as I managed to end up in the middle of the 5 twice and not knowing the 4 others persons.

2-3-2 is almost the best cross section you can have, anyone is just 1 or none seat from the aisle. 2-4-2 is ok too but still a lot more people to fight with at the baggage claim  
 
eisenbach
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting skopsko (Reply 12):
Well, I've avoided flying OS to Vienna because of those old 767. I just don't think it's a comfortable ride. They may never be profitable unless they invest in a better product. The updated cabin, while improved, looks very retro. I loved the original A330 that OS used to fly to IAD. I don't understand why they sold those and kept the 767.

Interesting question, thanks.

In my opinion the OS management in the past was very shortsighted, especially as (before LH came) the board was always politically selected. Insiders told me, that the OS A330/340s had a larger value on the market than their B767/777s at this time. As OS was always struggling with their finances, this was a quicker way for this management to earn money.

Sorry for no more details, I am writing from my phone, which is very annoying  
DC-6, Do228, Saab340, Twin-Otter, C212, Fokker50, AN24, ATR42, ATR72, Dash8-400Q, MD90, MD83, EMB120, A300, A343, A346, B721, B743, B748...
 
nrt1011
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:16 am

Quoting skopsko (Reply 12):
The 767 has one thing that it excels at, 2-3-2 SK used to have 767s and I loved them, such comfortable rides

I am in total agreement, down here in Australia I always try and fly the Qantas 767's domestically. They are a lovely ride, similarly AC still fly many many 767's internationally. Along with the 330 they are my favourite plane and I hope they keep flying for years
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:13 pm

Quoting skopsko (Reply 12):
The updated cabin, while improved, looks very retro.

Which cabin are you talking about? The refurbished 767 cabin with new seats even includes 777-style bins.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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a36001
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting nrt1011 (Reply 15):

Absolutely agree!! The 767 layout is IMO by far the most comfortable! And a great ride! Will miss them in the QF fleet once gone. I remember reading the OS Airbuses were leased and the 767's were owned or cheaper to lease so at the time it was farewell to the Airbuses. There was a thread ages ago about this but can't seem to pull it up, shame because it was a interesting read... 
 
LOWS
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:33 pm

Quoting a36001 (Reply 17):
remember reading the OS Airbuses were leased and the 767's were owned or cheaper to lease so at the time it was farewell to the Airbuses.

The OS Airbus 340s/330s were leased, but the 767 and 777s were inherited from Lauda when OS bought them in the early 2000s.
 
skopsko
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 16):
Which cabin are you talking about? The refurbished 767 cabin with new seats even includes 777-style bins.

The last time a flew on OS 767 was about 1.5 years ago. The cabin looked updated but very retro and basic. The PTVs and the programming were also pretty basic.
 
LOWS
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting skopsko (Reply 19):
The last time a flew on OS 767 was about 1.5 years ago. The cabin looked updated but very retro and basic. The PTVs and the programming were also pretty basic.

No, that is the original Cabin.

What we're talking about is a completely new cabin with new seats, AVOD, pivot bins, etc.

To most people it should be like flying on a brand new plane.
 
panampaul
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:49 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 20):
What we're talking about is a completely new cabin with new seats, AVOD, pivot bins, etc.

To most people it should be like flying on a brand new plane.

With the investment in the new interiors, I think OS plans to keep the current planes around for a while longer.
 
nrt1011
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:00 am

LH ran their 747's up to 120,000 hours. Just shows what you can do with good maintenance. I wonder what the target is with 767's, I know they are an AC workhorse and again hope they have many more years in them.
 
columba
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:01 am

I have read once that OS might get some more 777s ? Is this still on the table ?

LH will place an order for long haul aircraft this year and this will probably also affect LX and OS. For now they decided to do the same as Condor did, improve the cabin and add winglets to fly the aircraft for another couple of years till the next generation of aircraft is available.

LH seems to have an interesting strategy with their older aircraft, on the one hand sell a few aircraft as long as you get some money for them (e.g. the A340s they have sold to the German goverment or the ones that have now ended up in Iran) but with most of their fleet fly them as long as possible (737s, 747s)
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 23):
I have read once that OS might get some more 777s ? Is this still on the table ?

I haven't heard anything to the contrary - if they make the black numbers, they are supposed to get four more 777-200ERs (IIRC the plan was two in 2014, one in '15, and one in '16, but that might have changed).
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
Semaex
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:47 pm

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 24):
I haven't heard anything to the contrary - if they make the black numbers, they are supposed to get four more 777-200ERs (IIRC the plan was two in 2014, one in '15, and one in '16, but that might have changed).

The December issue of AERO Intl features a little article stating that due to low morale, a lot of 777 pilots left OS for BOX. Are they short of crew on the type now, or better; won't they be with more 772s to come?
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
douglasyxz
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:31 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 25):

The decision is not about crew-shortage or not, it is just about financial situation at OS. This has been stated quite a couple of times by top LH executives.

Joe Moser, Chief Pilot of Aerologic, recently stated they have a lot of potential aplicants for their 777 freighters. Thus, shouldn't be a decision making point to LH/OS fleet-planning.

I just wonder why a 20 year old 763 (OE-LAX) is being equipped with new seats in business and eco.
 
sweair
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:39 pm

The 789 would be a good 772 and 763 replacement in one body? A little less seats than a 772 but with the same range and more capacity then the 763.
 
toobz
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:09 am

Was very surprised to see OS brought up! The refurbished 767 is beautiful. No need for replacement. I suggest you take a more recent peak at the aircraft. I would post some pics but I'm on my iPhone and its a pain.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting Douglasyxz (Reply 26):
I just wonder why a 20 year old 763 (OE-LAX) is being equipped with new seats in business and eco.

They are well maintained and paid for. They still do a good job hauling people from VIE to their destinations. With the refurbishment, the hard product is on par as well. You can pay for a lot of fuel until you have paid off the 130 to 200 million dollars for a new-built Boeing 787 or Airbus A350!
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:16 pm

Quoting Douglasyxz (Reply 26):
I just wonder why a 20 year old 763 (OE-LAX) is being equipped with new seats in business and eco.

Well, if OS target is to be back in the black before getting any new aircraft, then they better invest in what they have to remain attractive to paying passengers. Passengers don't know the aircraft is 20 y/o. What matters to them is security, comfort and service. If the aircraft is well maintained, there won't be any problems.
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:59 pm

G'day

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 29):
ou can pay for a lot of fuel until you have paid off the 130 to 200 million dollars for a new-built Boeing 787 or Airbus A350!

I guess the days when you could get a 787 for 130 million $ are likely a thing of the past       


Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
SEPilot
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 6):
On the topic of the OS 767s, I believe LH is waiting for an outcome of the practicability of 787 and/or A350 in regular service and then decide accordingly.

Might this be a result of their being burned by committing to the A346 before giving the 77W a chance, and regretting it afterwards? Even though the manufacturers have gotten better at predicting performance, there is nothing like seeing how the plane actually performs-they can still surprise.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 31):
I guess the days when you could get a 787 for 130 million $ are likely a thing of the past

Well, a Boeing 787-8 lists at 206.6 million dollars, so when you work with an estimated discount of 35% (I went with a.net wisdom here), you are at approximately 134 million $.

[Edited 2013-02-12 10:56:29]
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
Semaex
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:24 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 32):
Might this be a result of their being burned by committing to the A346 before giving the 77W a chance, and regretting it afterwards? Even though the manufacturers have gotten better at predicting performance, there is nothing like seeing how the plane actually performs-they can still surprise.

I think this question deserves a thread for itself - if there isn't yet one out there - but I believe LH had their reasons to opt for the A346. Let's face it: It's a real workhorse, brings in huge loads of money and it does actually have its benifits compared to a 777 (not wanting to hijack this thread with details). All in all, it's a good plane for LH, and if it weren't, then why keep ordering A330s and 748s instead of the 777?
Who knows, maybe their LCAG 77Fs prove to be such good players in the game that they decide to order the 77X sooner than later. Time will tell.

I am very convinced that when it comes to sound, viable, long-term decisions, LH is one of the top players in the world. So I would be the last person to call them foolish not to have made up their mind on the 787/A350 yet.

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 33):
Well, a Boeing 787-8 lists at 206.6 million dollars, so when you work with an estimated discount of 35% (I went with a.net wisdom here), you are at approximately 134 million $.

Hahaha spoken like a true pilot. Use your thumb times pi, and you'll have the answer   
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
douglasyxz
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:25 am

Folks, let's get back to the main topic of this thread instead of doing speculation about LH and their 346. That's another issue.

My thoughts about new seats for an old workhorse doesn't mean I've got a problem flying in an old plane, not at all. It does indeed indicate that OS's 763ER will keep on flying for a couple of years. And this is what this thread is about, replacement or not. The refurbishment of 763 goes along with LH's principle of flying its aircraft until worn out or no more suitable for the network.

To me the answer is obvious: The 763ER will remain for the time being and in a few years 777 fleet will see a little increase - if OS turns back into black. I can see LH waiting for real performance figures of 787 and 350 and then decide which way to go.
 
skopsko
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:08 pm

Can anyone post photos of the new refurbished OS 767 cabin?

When will all OS 767 be refurbished?
 
sweair
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:20 pm

Actually I could see a combo of 788 and 789 for OS, the 788 replacing the 763er and the 7889 replacing the 772, a little less capacity but a lot more efficiency.
 
a3xx900
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting skopsko (Reply 36):
Can anyone post photos of the new refurbished OS 767 cabin?

When will all OS 767 be refurbished?

Thanks, I was gonna ask   
Why is 10 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:32 pm

Quoting PanAmPaul (Reply 21):
With the investment in the new interiors, I think OS plans to keep the current planes around for a while longer.

I was curious so looked it up. Of the 6x 767s at OS, 3 are over 20 yrs old, and the other three are 12/13/14 years old. So how long does OS plan on keeping those birds for? Esp. L/N 393, 448 and 467. I would think refurb costs are non trivial, but I guess, as some have pointed out, if you ain't gonna get new planes and you want to stay competitive, you have to invest in better products.


Quoting skopsko (Reply 36):
Can anyone post photos of the new refurbished OS 767 cabin?

+1
Now, I am curious  
 
LOWS
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:00 am

New Business:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7QuC5_dvfo

I can't find the new economy, but the basic thing is the complete new package from Heath with new walls, pivot bins, carpet and seats, and AVOD throughout.
 
douglasyxz
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:43 am

The business seats and the 2-1-2 configuration is similar to LX's fleet. I've been on their 340 a couple of times and really like config and seats in particular. Almost same equipment LH is introducing now on their 748.
With the experience of new interior not too many passengers will bother aircraft's age.


Can anyone give us an indication how competitive those comparatively old 767 are against current types?
 
LOWS
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:50 am

Quoting Douglasyxz (Reply 41):
similar to LX's fleet

Apparently, most decisions for OS are being made at FRA these days, not in VIE.

I can hardly blame them...
 
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:11 am

Quoting Douglasyxz (Reply 42):
Apparently, most decisions for OS are being made at FRA

Actually, it happens at CGN.

[Edited 2013-02-14 03:17:18]
 
Semaex
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:16 am

Quoting LOWS (Reply 42):
Apparently, most decisions for OS are being made at FRA these days, not in VIE.
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 43):
Actually, it happens at CGN.

And they sure are made for the better. Any gamble on when OS is going black again? My bet is on FY2015.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
AustrianZRH
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:43 pm

767: http://www.red-blog.at/en/2013/02/ga...efit-of-the-boeing-767-in-shannon/

777: http://www.red-blog.at/en/2013/01/ga...rsion-of-the-boeing-777-in-vienna/

Cabin pictures at the bottom of both sites!

Quoting skopsko (Reply 36):
When will all OS 767 be refurbished?

It was planned to have them refitted by May, but the FAA is requesting more than anticipated paperwork, so the 767 should be ready by September and the 777 by June.
WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
 
a3xx900
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:16 pm

Why is 10 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.
 
SEPilot
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting Semaex (Reply 34):
I think this question deserves a thread for itself - if there isn't yet one out there - but I believe LH had their reasons to opt for the A346. Let's face it: It's a real workhorse, brings in huge loads of money and it does actually have its benifits compared to a 777 (not wanting to hijack this thread with details). All in all, it's a good plane for LH, and if it weren't, then why keep ordering A330s and 748s instead of the 777?

In discussing the issue of LH delaying the decision until both the A350 and 787 are in service it is relevant to discuss LH's decisions in the past. I believe that they ordered the A346 because they already had the A343's and at the time it looked as though there would not be a lot of difference in performance between the A346 and the 77W. When the 77W actually entered service it proved to be much better than anyone expected, including Boeing, and hence it appears that LH might have regretted ordering the A346 so soon. But I fully understand why they did not order the 77W at all; they still need to get the return on investment for their A346's, and it costs a lot of money to add another type to the fleet. With this in mind, it makes complete sense to me that they will wait to get actual in-service figures for both the 787 and A350 before making a decision between them.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
ETinCaribe
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:11 pm

 
skopsko
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RE: When Will OS Replace The 767's And TK The 340's?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:45 am

The new cabins are really nice, but how about upgrading the engines? The newer engine models are much less noisy than what's on the OS 767 right now, and I imagine more efficient.