Gonzalo
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12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:59 pm

Not the first time this happens, and probably not the last. A 12 years old boy boarded ( without any ID or ticket ) a Jetair plane in Brussels and enjoyed a free ride to Malaga ( Spain ). The boy called the attention of one security agent after walking erratically through the Spanish airport. Authorities are looking the security camera's tapes to find out how was this possible. Probably someone will be looking for a new job soon.

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1553421-u...rtuaria-y-volo-de-belgica-a-espana

I couldn't find a link in English for this, if someone has one, please share.

Rgds.

[Edited 2013-02-09 14:22:39]
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UALWN
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:16 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
A 12 years old boy boarded ( without any ID or ticket ) a Jetstar plane in Brussels and enjoyed a free ride to Malaga ( Spain ).

The flight was on Jetairfly, part of TUI, not Jetstar.
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flyingalex
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:22 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
A 12 years old boy boarded ( without any ID or ticket )

The ID part of this is normal in a lot of Schengen countries for flights to other Schengen countries.

But if he had no ticket, how on Earth did he get a boarding pass? And if he didn't have a boarding pass, how on Earth did he get airside?
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warden145
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:25 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
But if he had no ticket, how on Earth did he get a boarding pass? And if he didn't have a boarding pass, how on Earth did he get airside?

Maybe he claimed that his father went onboard but dropped his wallet?    
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Gonzalo
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 1):
The flight was on Jetairfly, part of TUI, not Jetstar.

Thank you, I corrected my original post. ( Jetstar....      )

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
The ID part of this is normal in a lot of Schengen countries for flights to other Schengen countries.

But if he had no ticket, how on Earth did he get a boarding pass? And if he didn't have a boarding pass, how on Earth did he get airside?

This is specially strange since this stowaway is an unaccompanied minor. There are ( supposedly ) protocols to handle kids flying without adult supervision, and apparently this time no one was applied.

Rgds.
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rwy04lga
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:35 pm

Quoting warden145 (Reply 3):
Maybe he claimed that his father went onboard but dropped his wallet?

That's similar to Ada Quonsett's (Helen Hayes) line in 'Airport'. She claimed her son had dropped his wallet. Did the kid have a black marker?
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flyingalex
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:36 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 4):

This is specially strange since this stowaway is an unaccompanied minor. There are ( supposedly ) protocols to handle kids flying without adult supervision, and apparently this time no one was applied.

You only get UM service if you request it (and pay for it, on some airlines). I flew unaccompanied several times when I was 10-14, and only got the UM treatment the first two or three trips. After that, my parents figured I knew the drill. And I did.
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warden145
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:49 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 5):
That's similar to Ada Quonsett's (Helen Hayes) line in 'Airport'. She claimed her son had dropped his wallet. Did the kid have a black marker?

Nice to see that someone got the reference   

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 6):
You only get UM service if you request it (and pay for it, on some airlines). I flew unaccompanied several times when I was 10-14, and only got the UM treatment the first two or three trips. After that, my parents figured I knew the drill. And I did.

   That was my experience as well...I did a lot of UM flying (mostly SJC-LAX RT) before age 17, and I only got the UM service treatment a few times before age 8 or so. After that, I knew SJC Terminal A and LAX Terminal 4 well enough that I was guiding other people through the terminals 
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:07 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
The ID part of this is normal in a lot of Schengen countries for flights to other Schengen countries.


Are you confusing ID with passport? Even domestic flights here we need to show ID to board, does not need to be a passport... or can you really board without ID in the EU?

This story is remarkable, when you think about it.

He got through security.

He got past the gate agent.

He got past the FA at the door and into a seat (I guess he picked an unoccupied one).

And what about the passenger count before the door was closed?
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:17 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
The ID part of this is normal in a lot of Schengen countries for flights to other Schengen countries

No it isn't, you still need to have ID so the ground staff at the gate can check if the names on the boardingpass and ID are matching.
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skiaplg
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:09 am

Surprising that he was able to pass the onboard passenger count - recently I was flying AF from Prague, and because of a problem in the number of people on board they had to check everyone's boarding pass on the plane!
 
flyingalex
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:40 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 8):
Are you confusing ID with passport? Even domestic flights here we need to show ID to board, does not need to be a passport... or can you really board without ID in the EU?

Yes, you can fly without showing ID within the Schengen zone. I did it just last week, from Germany to Spain. I had my ID with me, of course, but I never had to show it.

That said, you will need to show ID to check in a bag.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 9):
No it isn't, you still need to have ID so the ground staff at the gate can check if the names on the boardingpass and ID are matching.

In the Netherlands, yes. In Spain also. But in many Schengen countries such checks are not done on intra-Schengen flights. I'm not sure what the rule is in Belgium, it's been a while since I've flown from there.

That's not to say that the airline will not choose to do ID checks anyway as a revenue protection measure, but in most countries there is no government regulation requiring such checks.
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CrimsonNL
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 9):
No it isn't, you still need to have ID so the ground staff at the gate can check if the names on the boardingpass and ID are matching.

This actually is more of an airline procedure then a governmental requirement these days on Schengen flights. Theres quite a few airlines that don't check for ID's at the gate anymore.

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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 9):

No it isn't, you still need to have ID so the ground staff at the gate can check if the names on the boardingpass and ID are matching.

Minors do not need to provide ID.

Quoting skiaplg (Reply 10):
Surprising that he was able to pass the onboard passenger count - recently I was flying AF from Prague, and because of a problem in the number of people on board they had to check everyone's boarding pass on the plane!

Passenger count is only done on international flights at many airlines. It's done to ensure that the airline checked that everybody has appropriate entry credentials into the destination country.

On intra-schengen and other domestic flights, many airlines don't bother with passenger count so that they can schedule tighter turns.
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:16 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 11):
In the Netherlands, yes. In Spain also. But in many Schengen countries such checks are not done on intra-Schengen flights. I'm not sure what the rule is in Belgium, it's been a while since I've flown from there.

That's not to say that the airline will not choose to do ID checks anyway as a revenue protection measure, but in most countries there is no government regulation requiring such checks.

But as far as I know it's illegal to have someone onboard with a boarding pass without his own name on it? The same for someone without a boarding pass at all (except crews and other airline staff ofcourse). How are you going to prevent to have unwelcome people onboard if you don't do a proper ID check at the gate and a proper headcount onboard?

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 12):
This actually is more of an airline procedure then a governmental requirement these days on Schengen flights. Theres quite a few airlines that don't check for ID's at the gate anymore.

Which is a bad development in my view, the results are situations like this.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
Minors do not need to provide ID.

But they can't fly on their own either, unless they're booked as UM ofcourse, but the boy in this story wasn't booked at all.

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
Passenger count is only done on international flights at many airlines. It's done to ensure that the airline checked that everybody has appropriate entry credentials into the destination country.

On intra-schengen and other domestic flights, many airlines don't bother with passenger count so that they can schedule tighter turns.

Another bad development.

ALL airlines should do ID checks at the gate AND perform a headcount onboard, no matter what sort of flight it is. Domestic, intra-Schengen, international, etc... I've boarded hundreds of flights when I was a dispatcher and we did ID checks at all passengers and the aircraft never left until a headcount was performed and confirmed.
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:45 am

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
A 12 years old boy boarded ( without any ID or ticket )

The ID part of this is normal in a lot of Schengen countries for flights to other Schengen countries.

On my last few trips from GVA, all entirely within Schengen, all involving 4 flights with a connection each way, I wasn't required to show any ID anywhere, either at the security check or the boarding gate. I could have made all those trips with only a boarding pass and no passport or other identification whatsoever.
 
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
I could have made all those trips with only a boarding pass and no passport or other identification whatsoever.

Yes, or even worse, I (or any other person) could have made those trips with YOUR boardingpass with YOUR name on it and nobody would have noticed it, which is very bad.
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 16):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
I could have made all those trips with only a boarding pass and no passport or other identification whatsoever.

Yes, or even worse, I (or any other person) could have made those trips with YOUR boardingpass with YOUR name on it and nobody would have noticed it, which is very bad.

That's the thought that crossed my mind. All those trips were on KLM via AMS by the way, but my last trip on LH 2 weeks ago GVA-TXL-GVA was the same. Never had ot take my passport out of my pocket at either end. Ironically, the only place I've had to show a passport recently has been when checking into hotels as they often want to see your ID.
 
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:08 am

I would assume that his parents had to purchase a ticket for his return flight - and under strict supervision on that flight. How did he get the airport, maybe on the train? I bet his parents were a bit shocked when they got the call that he was in AGP.
He did commit several crimes, including not paying for a service and possible breaking of security at the airport although I suspect he due to his age nor his parents will face any penalties Worse is that the airport and airliner security screwed up big time and should have caught him and they will likely face penalties.
 
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:26 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 14):
But they can't fly on their own either, unless they're booked as UM ofcourse, but the boy in this story wasn't booked at all.

12 year olds can fly without UM on many airlines at the age of 12. UA, DL, AA, AI, 9W, all have this policy. I'm sure others do as well.
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UALWN
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:53 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
All those trips were on KLM via AMS by the way, but my last trip on LH 2 weeks ago GVA-TXL-GVA was the same. Never had ot take my passport out of my pocket at either end.

Same here flying BCN-GVA-BCN on LX.
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flyingalex
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:22 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 14):
But as far as I know it's illegal to have someone onboard with a boarding pass without his own name on it? The same for someone without a boarding pass at all (except crews and other airline staff ofcourse). How are you going to prevent to have unwelcome people onboard if you don't do a proper ID check at the gate and a proper headcount onboard?

Illegal in what country?

As for your second point, it is the gate's responsibility to only let people aboard who have a boarding pass. That is, in a sense, your temporary ID for a given flight. It gives you the right to get on aircraft X. No boarding pass, no boarding. Simple as that. If I walk up to a gate and try to get on a flight I don't have a boarding pass for, I'm going to get a serious talking to, at minimum. This kid probably slipped through the cracks simply because he was a kid, and therefore not perceived as a threat.

In any case, even if someone sneaks aboard, presumably anyone who is airside will have been screened?

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 14):
But they can't fly on their own either, unless they're booked as UM ofcourse, but the boy in this story wasn't booked at all.

Not true. Minors (people under the age of 18) can and do fly unaccompanied all the time. UM service is mandatory until age 12, after that, the parents can book UM service for their kid, but it is not required.

See also:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
12 year olds can fly without UM on many airlines at the age of 12. UA, DL, AA, AI, 9W, all have this policy. I'm sure others do as well.
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 16):
Yes, or even worse, I (or any other person) could have made those trips with YOUR boardingpass with YOUR name on it and nobody would have noticed it, which is very bad.

Why is it bad? Knowing the names of your passengers achieves nothing for security, screening them properly does. Look at the US - they've wasted massive amounts of time, money and goodwill on their national no-fly list, and it's been nothing but a PR nightmare for them.
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s5daw
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:24 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 8):
Are you confusing ID with passport? Even domestic flights here we need to show ID to board, does not need to be a passport... or can you really board without ID in the EU?

Depends. On some airports they don't check IDs at all since they installed automatic boarding gates. You just scan the boarding pass and you are done.

With web checkin it is indeed possible to travel with a fake name.
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:00 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 16):

Yes, or even worse, I (or any other person) could have made those trips with YOUR boardingpass with YOUR name on it and nobody would have noticed it, which is very bad.

We have open borders in Europe, so I could cross the border to Germany by car, train or on foot, with your passport on me and no one would give a crap. Why should it be different on airplanes? Assuming that the security checkpoint does it's job, what's the problem if person B travels on a boarding card with person A's name on it?

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s5daw
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:07 am

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 23):
what's the problem if person B travels on a boarding card with person A's name on it?

The land of the free has "No Fly List" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List so this concept must be terrifying  
 
keegd76
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:32 am

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
Passenger count is only done on international flights at many airlines. It's done to ensure that the airline checked that everybody has appropriate entry credentials into the destination country.

This is not the case in the UK. Passenger count is mandatory on ALL flights, domestic and international. I know, I've been on both.

Quoting s5daw (Reply 22):
Depends. On some airports they don't check IDs at all since they installed automatic boarding gates. You just scan the boarding pass and you are done.

Which airports have this facility? I've never heard of it before.

I've used automatic check-in but that still requires photo ID at the boarding gate.
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bralo20
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 25):
Which airports have this facility? I've never heard of it before.

Brussels has those, you can board the A terminal (Schengen flights) with just scanning a boarding pass. There's one security at the boarding gates but that's mainly to let people through without a boarding pass (but with other credentials). To pass from A to T (which is the last part of the A terminal used by SN for it's long haul flights) you'll have to give your passport to be able to pass.

Actually in BRU when taking a flight from the Schengen terminal you don't need an ID unless they ask for it at the boarding gate (which they can but afaik aren't required to do).
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 25):
This is not the case in the UK. Passenger count is mandatory on ALL flights, domestic and international. I know, I've been on both.

A carrier from the UK that I work with, has recently updated their procedures and now no longer do a headcount on flights from AMS to the UK..

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 25):

Which airports have this facility? I've never heard of it before.

I've used automatic check-in but that still requires photo ID at the boarding gate.

The LH part of FRA has automatic boarding gates at pretty much every gate, and AMS has recently conducted a trial with them at several gates as well.

Martijn
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s5daw
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:02 am

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 25):
Which airports have this facility? I've never heard of it before.

I'm quite sure MUC is like this, at least for schengen flights. I think VIE has the automatic boarding gates at the new terminal, but I don't remember the process during my last boarding there.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:20 am

I'm certainly shocked about the difference between Europe and my home country regarding how relaxed are the procedures to board an aircraft. Since I only fly with one airline ( always LAN for my domestic and international travels ), maybe I'm not in a position to make *fair* comparisons ( maybe my experience is consequence of LAN procedures and not related to legislation or regulations ), but still surprises me that you can fly KLM, with a few connections all over Europe without being questioned.
Here, to board a LAN plane, you will :
1.- Requested to show a valid ID at the airline's counter. Valid ID = Identification Card ( Cedula de Identidad ) or Passport. Driver's license is not accepted, despite it has an image of the owner. If you are already checked online, you can skip this process, but if you are making the check in in the counter, you need a valid ID. Other way, you don't get the boarding pass.
2.- Once you have your boarding pass ( online or after visiting the counter ), you need to enter in the "pax only" area, where the screening / safety process begins ( before even passing the X-Ray machines and metal detectors ) with an agent asking you to show A.- your valid ID again, and B.- Your boarding pass. The names should match in both, or you will be "out of the line".
3.- At the gate, before putting your foot on the bridge way, you need to have your boarding pass and your valid ID in your hand, and show it to the airline's gate agent. Other way, you don't get in.

All this is valid for domestic and international flights.

I could be wrong, but I think the kid in this story was very lucky.

Rgds.
G.
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keegd76
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 26):
Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 27):
Quoting s5daw (Reply 28):

Thanks for info. Very surprising that not checking ID or doing a head count is starting to become common practice.

I had always thought ID checks were required for security purposes in order to prove that:
a) the people that are supposed to be on the plane are on the plane
b) they can match checked in luggage with passengers

As for the head counts, isn't that required to verify that the plane is carrying the number of people checked in on the flight? Is this info not required for COG checks and fuel requirements?

Who dictates these policies? I though it was ICAO but I may be wrong.

[Edited 2013-02-11 03:39:14]
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RyanairGuru
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:12 pm

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 30):
I though it was ICAO but I may be wrong.

Only for international flights, and inter-Schengen effectively counts as domestic.

If you think that Schengen sounds relaxed then try domestic flying in Australia! One ANetter even admits to having flown with a ticket that was not his name
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N
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:59 pm

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 26):
I've used automatic check-in but that still requires photo ID at the boarding gate.

There's a lot of confusion here about airlines choosing to check ID at the gate for revenue protection reasons and airlines being required to check ID for regulatory purposes. If the security screening at the airport is completed properly it doesn't really make much difference to the security/safety of an aircraft whether or not ID is checked.

LCCs check ID at the gate but they do so for revenue protection. For a domestic flight (and Schengen is classed as domestic) ID is less important as there are no passport/immigration issues to deal with.

If I board a train from Edinburgh to London, I don't get my ID checked. If I board a flight from EDI to LHR on BA they do not check my ID - BA only check ID on international flights and remember that this story is about a Schengen flight. easyJet and Flybe do check ID on domestic flights but they are not required to - they choose to do so.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting N (Reply 32):
If I board a train from Edinburgh to London, I don't get my ID checked. If I board a flight from EDI to LHR on BA they do not check my ID - BA only check ID on international flights and remember that this story is about a Schengen flight. easyJet and Flybe do check ID on domestic flights but they are not required to - they choose to do so.

A little off topic, but what happen in case of an accident ? Here in Chile we are required to tell our full name and number of Identification Card even for travel in long distance buses, precisely to help in the process of identification when there is an accident with fatalities/serious injuries.
How can an airline provide a passengers list when something goes wrong, if they didn't check who was on board of the plane?

Rgds.
G.
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bralo20
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 33):
A little off topic, but what happen in case of an accident ? Here in Chile we are required to tell our full name and number of Identification Card even for travel in long distance buses, precisely to help in the process of identification when there is an accident with fatalities/serious injuries.
How can an airline provide a passengers list when something goes wrong, if they didn't check who was on board of the plane?

Rgds.
G.

You'll have to fill out these details when you book your ticket. But you are correct, you could fill in DOE/JOHN for example and few will notice it...
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 23):
Assuming that the security checkpoint does it's job,

It's not their job to indentify people, their only job is to prevent people from bringing forbidden items on board. It's the airline's responsibility to make sure that only those are onboard who are supposed to be it.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 23):
what's the problem if person B travels on a boarding card with person A's name on it?

Because person B is not supposed to be there at that time because it was person A that was booked in the flight. What if person B starts attacking other passengers or hijacks the aircraft while enroute? Besides that passenger B will be in trouble it will also create problems for passenger A, because passenger B is flying as passenger A.

Or what if the aircraft crashes?

It's very simple, passenger B is not booked on the flight, so he doesn't have a boardingpass and therefore he's not allowed on the flight. For the same reasons it's not allowed to check-in baggage from other people on your name, and most of us understand what's the reason behind that.  
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flyingalex
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:08 pm

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 25):
Which airports have this facility? I've never heard of it before.

Quite a few airports in continental Europe. BRU, MUC, FRA, DUS, ZRH, probably a lot more.

In addition, I hear that at LHR's Terminal 5, BA are preparing a trial for self-scan gates to access the security checks.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 29):
I'm certainly shocked about the difference between Europe and my home country regarding how relaxed are the procedures to board an aircraft.

The only thing that is different is that there is no ID check here. And the ID does nothing to enhance security anyway.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 29):
I could be wrong, but I think the kid in this story was very lucky.

Absolutely! Things worked in his favour in more than one spot, otherwise he would have been caught sooner.

Quoting N (Reply 32):
There's a lot of confusion here about airlines choosing to check ID at the gate for revenue protection reasons and airlines being required to check ID for regulatory purposes. If the security screening at the airport is completed properly it doesn't really make much difference to the security/safety of an aircraft whether or not ID is checked.

Exactly. If you screen passengers well, it really doesn't matter who they are. Make sure they don't have any contraband with them, that is the important part.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 35):
It's not their job to indentify people, their only job is to prevent people from bringing forbidden items on board. It's the airline's responsibility to make sure that only those are onboard who are supposed to be it.

I agree with the first part of this statement (re: the security check), but what is the impact on security of knowing who your passengers are? Or not knowing it, for that matter?

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 35):
Because person B is not supposed to be there at that time because it was person A that was booked in the flight. What if person B starts attacking other passengers or hijacks the aircraft while enroute? Besides that passenger B will be in trouble it will also create problems for passenger A, because passenger B is flying as passenger A.

Can you give me an example of a person who is "not supposed to be there"? Someone on a no-fly list perhaps? Those lists do not work, and are completely useless against first offenders. The key is checking all passengers thoroughly to ensure they don't take weapons or other dangerous items on board.

I maintain that checking IDs is more hassle than it's worth, and does nothing for security. If you disagree, please explain in detail why you think that this is so.
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:50 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 36):
If you disagree, please explain in detail why you think that this is so.

I got your point regarding the overall safety of the flight, the important thing is not the name, the gender or the age of the person, the important thing is he/she is not carrying any dangerous goods or materials on board. But I'm still stunned about why a very simple verification ( you only need a hand held scan, LAN use this things and it takes like half second per passenger in the boarding gate ) is not made, at least for the sake of this :

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 33):
How can an airline provide a passengers list when something goes wrong, if they didn't check who was on board of the plane?

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BasilFawlty
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:55 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 36):
I agree with the first part of this statement (re: the security check), but what is the impact on security of knowing who your passengers are? Or not knowing it, for that matter?

Security checks have nothing to do with people at all, their only intention is to look for forbidden items. They don't have to know who's standing in front of them, that's not of their business.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 36):
Can you give me an example of a person who is "not supposed to be there"?

Me, you and everybody else without a valid reservation and boarding pass.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 36):
I maintain that checking IDs is more hassle than it's worth, and does nothing for security. If you disagree, please explain in detail why you think that this is so.

It's not a hassle, it only takes a few seconds. Look at LCC's for example, most of them check ID's carefully at the departure gate and perform a proper head count, and it's all done in a shorter amount of time then at a 'legacy/normal' airline without ID check.

If names are not important, why do you still need to enter all your personal details when making a reservation? If names are not important, why do you still get a boardingpass with your name on it? If names are not important, why can't you check-in the baggage of someone else?

Imagine that you are on a flight with a fake name in the reservation and on your boardingpass and the aircraft crashes. How are they going to know who you are? How are they going to contact your family and relatives?
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flyingalex
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 38):
Security checks have nothing to do with people at all, their only intention is to look for forbidden items. They don't have to know who's standing in front of them, that's not of their business.

Which was exactly my point. Check that people are "clean", and do so diligently, and it becomes irrelevant who they are.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 38):
Me, you and everybody else without a valid reservation and boarding pass.

If I have a boarding pass for the flight, I'm supposed to be there.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 38):
It's not a hassle, it only takes a few seconds. Look at LCC's for example, most of them check ID's carefully at the departure gate and perform a proper head count, and it's all done in a shorter amount of time then at a 'legacy/normal' airline without ID check.

Have you ever used a quick boarding gate where you scan your own boarding pass? I'd be very impressed to see an airline do a BP + ID check quicker than that! Checking IDs most definitely is a hassle. In my experience, checking the ID and matching it up against the boarding pass takes the gate agent about 3 seconds extra per person. On a flight with 100 people on it, that means boarding takes a full 5 minutes longer than necessary. All for zero benefit.

And most airlines do still do a headcount, regardless of whether IDs were checked or not. Lufthansa, for example. They don't do ID checks, they have self-boarding gates, but they still always do a headcount.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 38):
If names are not important, why do you still need to enter all your personal details when making a reservation? If names are not important, why do you still get a boardingpass with your name on it? If names are not important, why can't you check-in the baggage of someone else?

You enter your name because of the way the system has always been set up, and because it is inefficient to set up one anonymous system for intra-Schengen flights, and another for non-Schengen flights.

As I've said before, you need to show ID to you check in baggage, even on intra-Schengen flights where no ID is otherwise necessary. Personally, I think even this is unnecessary. If you screen baggage properly to ensure that nothing dangerous is on board, it doesn't matter whose baggage it is.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 38):
Imagine that you are on a flight with a fake name in the reservation and on your boardingpass and the aircraft crashes. How are they going to know who you are? How are they going to contact your family and relatives?

If you're on a flight with a fake name, then it's your problem (or perhaps more likely your family's) if the airline cannot find your next of kin in an emergency.

Allow me to reiterate my point: what makes a flight secure is adequate screening of passengers and baggage. Establishing the identity of said passengers does nothing to improve the security of the flight. The only thing it can possibly do is improve the airline's bottom line.

To say that a flight on which people might be flying under a fake name is less safe is simply inaccurate, and you still have not given reasons for why you believe the contrary.
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Viscount724
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:33 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 23):
We have open borders in Europe, so I could cross the border to Germany by car, train or on foot, with your passport on me and no one would give a crap. Why should it be different on airplanes? Assuming that the security checkpoint does it's job, what's the problem if person B travels on a boarding card with person A's name on it?

Your car trip across the border isn't covered by a contract. An airline ticket is a contract between the passenger named on the ticket and the airline.

And in the event of an accident, it's important to know the identity of the passengers. It would be very messy if many passengers were using boarding passes bearing the names of ticketed passengers who weren't on the aircraft.

Obviously airlines don't seem very concerned about that now considering that they often no longer want to see anything other than a boarding pass, especially on flights entirely within the Schengen area. It does speed up boarding which is probably one reason.
 
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:42 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 39):
In my experience, checking the ID and matching it up against the boarding pass takes the gate agent about 3 seconds extra per person. On a flight with 100 people on it, that means boarding takes a full 5 minutes longer than necessary. All for zero benefit.

My experience is different. Like I said, the whole process of putting a paper under a hand held laser scan that verifies who you are takes less than one second. It's just a "bip". And, by the way, that "bip" is the way the airline ( in my case LAN ) can be sure that I took the flight, and by doing that, I have the right to add that miles to my FF account ( for obvious reasons, you don't get the miles if you do not complete the flight ).

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BasilFawlty
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:59 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 39):
If I have a boarding pass for the flight, I'm supposed to be there.

If your name is on it, yes, otherwise, no.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 39):
Have you ever used a quick boarding gate where you scan your own boarding pass?

Yes, several times in FRA, MUC and NUE, and I don't like it.  
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 39):
If you're on a flight with a fake name, then it's your problem (or perhaps more likely your family's) if the airline cannot find your next of kin in an emergency.

No, you make it the airline's problem because they're responsible for you.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
Obviously airlines don't seem very concerned about that now considering that they often no longer want to see anything other than a boarding pass, especially on flights entirely within the Schengen area.

I'm afraid we need some serious incidents first before they wake up again.  
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
Viscount724
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 42):
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 39):
Have you ever used a quick boarding gate where you scan your own boarding pass?

Yes, several times in FRA, MUC and NUE, and I don't like it.

Why not? I think it's a great idea.
 
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BasilFawlty
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 43):
Why not? I think it's a great idea.

Because it will take much longer before the gate staff can discover that something has gone wrong or that a person has just slipped through (like lots of people slip through in the subway for example). Also, when pax are only scanning their boarding pass, the gate staff don't have pieces or copies of the boardingpasses, which makes it much more difficult for them to count the total number of boarded passengers if they're suspecting that something has gone wrong.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
 
ltbewr
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:38 am

One other issue: what if the child at the destination left the terminal ? Even within the terminal, he could be assaulted, if he left the terminal, he could get killed, or in an extreme situation, taken by bad people who may use him in sexual enslavement. Age 12 is not the age of reason in most countries, the airline and the airport has an obligation to protect minors, including from themselves.
I also wonder if this boy just liked to travel, had traveled enough to figure out to sneak on a flight or had a problem at home that he wanted to run away from. That needs to be looked at too in this case.
 
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:58 am

Even if the airline checked ID forging an ID is extremely easy. And unlike bouncers at a bar, airline employees probably aren't so great at picking out fake IDs.

ID checks on domestic flights are a waste of time and resources. They don't improve safety or security in any way.
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:23 am

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 44):
Also, when pax are only scanning their boarding pass, the gate staff don't have pieces or copies of the boardingpasses, which makes it much more difficult for them to count the total number of boarded passengers if they're suspecting that something has gone wrong.

Even on airlines that DO check ID's at the boarding gate, it is now quite rare these days to keep the boarding card stub until boarding is completed. They usually hand back the entire boarding card these days. It does happen, as you point out, that people slip through. (Though this happens with manual boarding + ID check as well). When that happens it's just a matter of checking the assigned seat or making an announcement on board.

Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 35):
It's not their job to indentify people, their only job is to prevent people from bringing forbidden items on board. It's the airline's responsibility to make sure that only those are onboard who are supposed to be it.

This is true but it's also not what I was implying. I intended to say that assuming that a passenger is 100% "clean", it no longer matters who they are, as FlyingAlex also pointed out.
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robbb
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:24 am

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 25):
This is not the case in the UK. Passenger count is mandatory on ALL flights, domestic and international.

There is no requirement for UK airlines to carry out headcounts although some choose to.

Quoting keegd76 (Reply 25):
I know, I've been on both.

I know, I'm cabin crew for a UK airline.
 
lostsound
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RE: 12 Y.o. Stowaway Flew BRU-AGP

Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:00 pm

Quoting warden145 (Reply 3):
Maybe he claimed that his father went onboard but dropped his wallet?    

I'm thinking he followed who he thought was his father and bumped into the ticket agent, losing his ticket amongst the others in her hand.
 

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