Arcano
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:57 pm

Hi all

I remember the standard for years in coach for the 777 was 9 abreast in comfortable 3-3-3 configuration. Many times I've flown them, 772, 773 and 77W. Now AC is even changing them!

But now I see more and more airlines going 3-4-3, which was the standard for wider 747s. I know this is obvious for airlines, but what about pax? are the seats or the aisles getting thinner? Any compensation in terms of pitch or we're basically worse than before?

Thanks

Regards )( Arcano
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SonomaFlyer
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:04 pm

All it takes is one airline making the switch, making money and folks continuing to fly that airline. The move to 10 across on the 77W happened a while ago (EK for example). Other airlines with 77Ws may renovate to add the 10th seat because it will put $$ in their pockets for minimal cost. The average passenger apparently does not care.

Many of us on this board however do care. If I'm flying Y class, I will go out of my way to book an airline with more comfortable seating layouts on long haul flights. I don't have an issue paying a bit more in exchange for a bit more room.

I'll need to look but I don't recall any major airlines flying the 772 at 10 across on long haul flights. They are at nine across.
 
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longhauler
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting Arcano (Thread starter):
Now AC is even changing them!

For the record, AC is not changing B777s to 10 abreast. 5 new-build B777s coming in 2013 and early 2014 will be equipped with a 10 abreast Y cabin, as are the majority of B777s being built today. There has been no decision made to alter existing B777s.
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roseflyer
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:09 pm

Emirates was the first one to do it on a large scale and has been wildly successful. They have better than industry standard pitch. Aisles and seats are narrower. They are putting the same 17 inch width on the 777s that airlines have always been using on 737s and 757s for decades.

Here is an honest question to those who fear 10 abreast (or 9 on the 787). Could you honestly tell that the seats on wide bodies were bigger than on narrow bodies? Everyone seems to prefer the more open cabin, but can you feel 1 inch?

I have sat in a mockup with 9 and 10 abreast in the same interior. If I had no one next to me, I could not tell the difference. I only noticed it when sitting with someone on both sides. 10 abreast middle seats are tight, but for a window seat, I could not feel any difference since I tend to lean away from the middle seat anyway.

My final comment is that long haul economy is a miserable and uncomfortable experience regardless of your seat. It is the cheapest way to travel and airlines know that people care most about cost. A cheaper ticket would make them happier than 1 inch of width. We all appreciate better, but don't want to pay for it. Premium economy is coming and is a good option if you value a little more comfort or are a person of size.
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AT
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
If I'm flying Y class, I will go out of my way to book an airline with more comfortable seating layouts on long haul flights.

I agree with you. The question is, however, whether a seat in a 9-abreast configuration is necessarily more comfortable than one that is in a 10 abreast. For example, I have flown on countless Emirates 10-abreast 777s and do not find the seats any less comfortable than on United's or American's 777s. The aisles however seemed narrower, and may be that's largely what the 10th seat is cutting into.

I think the quality of the seat and seat cushion, shape, legroom, and width all combine to create a comfortable experience.
 
roseflyer
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:14 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
Many of us on this board however do care. If I'm flying Y class, I will go out of my way to book an airline with more comfortable seating layouts on long haul flights. I don't have an issue paying a bit more in exchange for a bit more room.

I'll need to look but I don't recall any major airlines flying the 772 at 10 across on long haul flights. They are at nine across.

Air France has 10 abreast on long haul 777s. We also know their hard product in all classes lags their competition for comfort. Premium economy at 9 abreast is an interesting concept. Basically you are paying more for the width that was industry standard 15 years ago.
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SonomaFlyer
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 4):

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
If I'm flying Y class, I will go out of my way to book an airline with more comfortable seating layouts on long haul flights.

I agree with you. The question is, however, whether a seat in a 9-abreast configuration is necessarily more comfortable than one that is in a 10 abreast. For example, I have flown on countless Emirates 10-abreast 777s and do not find the seats any less comfortable than on United's or American's 777s. The aisles however seemed narrower, and may be that's largely what the 10th seat is cutting into.

I think the quality of the seat and seat cushion, shape, legroom, and width all combine to create a comfortable experience.


I agree with your points. Where I think this would impact me most is the fact I'm a bit over 6'2" tall and the narrow seats translate to narrower shoulder width which isn't fun. The narrower seat doesn't matter to me given I can easily fit my bottom in the seat.

Despite the tight confines, a great on-board product can help make the experience a good one. EK for example has an excellent entertainment system, decent food and good service. I might deal with a trip in Y on EK but wouldn't consider the same trip for example on a U.S. based airline given the differences in service and product.
 
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817Dreamliiner
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):

  

I always wondered if one inch really does make a difference or even if its that noticeable in a 10 vs 9 abreast config on the 777. Truth is, you never really know until you've experienced it yourself... Even so, ive never flown in a 10 abreast config so I cant really same how bad it is compared to the 9, plus im not a large person, so my opinion of might differ to someone else.

But lets look on the bright side, the proposed 777X series is projected to have a 4 inch wider cabin...
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777STL
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:55 pm

I'm not sure I'd call 10 abreast the "standard". There are still plenty of airlines that fly 9 abreast, and more of those than fly 10 abreast, I'd imagine.
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trex8
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:29 pm

Years ago TG had 10 across on their 777. I crawled onto one half asleep one night BKk to Nrt and thought I was on a 747 till I had to go to the bathroom- which weren't where they ought to be on a 747! Never noticed a problem with the seat. Mind you if it had been same plane all the way back to U S it may be different!
 
FWAERJ
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:33 pm

In the USA, there are four major 777 operators. One is going to 10-abreast across the board, one is likely to stay 9-abreast, and one is currently 9-abreast but has a possibility of 10-abreast in the future. And the fourth-biggest US 777 operator doesn't take passengers.

AA is going to transition their 772ERs to 10-abreast (except in Main Cabin Extra), add AVOD, eliminate the F cabin, and replace the polish with paint starting midyear, which will bring the 772 in line for Y with AA's new 77Ws. AA's 772s are currently 9-abreast in Y.

DL is still 9-abreast, and refurbished all their 777s with new seating in both J and Y and AVOD in both classes not all that long ago. Since DL's 777 fleet is underutilized, I don't see that changing.

UA (both sUA and sCO aircraft) have both always been 9-abreast. The sUA planes were refurbed with AVOD and new seats in Y (3-3-3 instead of the original 2-5-2) not all that long ago, as were the sCO planes. But if UA orders 77Ws instead of converting their A350XWB-900 orders to A350XWB-1000s, I could see UA going for 10-abreast on the 77W to bring seating capacity in line with the 744s that need to be replaced.

And as an all-cargo airline, FX doesn't need seats in their 77L-Fs.
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Arcano
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:40 pm

Quoting AT (Reply 4):
The question is, however, whether a seat in a 9-abreast configuration is necessarily more comfortable than one that is in a 10 abreast.

I do care after I found that to travel long distance in the aisle of the middle 3 is one of the best way to cross oceans when travelling solo; the more chances to have the central seat empty, and if occupied more chances that the poor guy is a companion of the other central isle, so little chances you'll get disturbed and instant access to the aisle...

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
For the record, AC is not changing B777s to 10 abreast.

I'm afraid just wait and see

Regards!
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
My final comment is that long haul economy is a miserable and uncomfortable experience regardless of your seat.

Well, last year I flew in quick succession on a 9-abreast SQ 77W and on a 10-abreast JJ 77W, and one experience was definitely more miserable than the other.
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SonomaFlyer
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:05 pm

I think AA's decision on the 772s makes sense given their 77W config. I'll be interested in the reviews of the revamped 772s in Y class.
 
mplsjefe
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):

DL is still 9-abreast, and refurbished all their 777s with new seating in both J and Y and AVOD in both classes not all that long ago. Since DL's 777 fleet is underutilized, I don't see that changing.

Thank the gods! We fly DL 77Ls quite a bit and would hate to see a change. We find the Y+ to be very comfortable, even on a 16 hour flight. We've been in Y too, and that was fine as well.

Two years ago we flew CDG-YYZ on an AF 773 in Y+ and couldn't believe the sight in Y. Looked horrid and all the pax on a very full flight looked absolutely miserable. The aisles looked smaller than the armrests. After that, we made a pact to never fly on a 777 3-4-3 configuration in Y ever.
 
daviation
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:53 pm

I have only flown 777s on CO and LY. I am a big tall guy, though not overweight (well, not much anyway). The 3-3-3 seats on those airlines were perfectly satisfactory. But I think I'd be singing a different tune if I had to endure a 10+ hour flight in a 3-4-3 configuration. I have flown trans-Atlantic on CO's 757s, but there was no one between my daughter (window) and I (aisle), so it was very comfortable. If we'd had a middle-seat companion, I don't think I would have been so happy.
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JHCRJ700
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:01 pm

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
Many of us on this board however do care. If I'm flying Y class, I will go out of my way to book an airline with more comfortable seating layouts on long haul flights. I don't have an issue paying a bit more in exchange for a bit more room.

It's traveler's like us that have given rise to premium economy. I'll gladly pay a little more for a little more room.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
My final comment is that long haul economy is a miserable and uncomfortable experience regardless of your seat. It is the cheapest way to travel and airlines know that people care most about cost. A cheaper ticket would make them happier than 1 inch of width. We all appreciate better, but don't want to pay for it. Premium economy is coming and is a good option if you value a little more comfort or are a person of size.

I couldn't agree more that flying long haul in econ is a miserable experience. I flew LHR-IAH three years ago on a 777 in econ. We were delayed at the gate for roughly 2 hours, taxied out and held for close to another hour, and then finally had a ten hour flight. I was fortunate there was a young child next to me so I could stretch my legs out under his seat because the equipment box was blocking mine. Lesson learned! No more long haul econ for me! It seems as though some of the Euro carriers premium long haul experience is well worth the price and offers quite a bit on top of just a little more room. Definitely worth the extra cost IMO.
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 14):
Two years ago we flew CDG-YYZ on an AF 773 in Y+ and couldn't believe the sight in Y. Looked horrid and all the pax on a very full flight looked absolutely miserable. The aisles looked smaller than the armrests. After that, we made a pact to never fly on a 777 3-4-3 configuration in Y ever.

Well, it was AF. They are not the best comparison for this purpose. I suppose that if BA did than that would be a more valid comparison.
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Viscount724
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
I have sat in a mockup with 9 and 10 abreast in the same interior. If I had no one next to me, I could not tell the difference. I only noticed it when sitting with someone on both sides.

But with today's high load factors you're more likely than not to have someone next to you. And if you're in an aisle seat which I always prefer, the narrow aisles on the 10-abreast 777 also mean you're more likely to be bumped by people passing in the aisle (and by meal/drink trolleys).

I much prefer any other widebody, especially the 767 followed by the 2-4-2 A330/340, to a 10-abreast 777 and fortunately there aren't many routes where you don't have a more comfortable option.
 
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:45 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):
Since DL's 777 fleet is underutilized, I don't see that changing.

What do you mean they are underutilized?
 
deltaflyertoo
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:10 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
I much prefer any other widebody, especially the 767 followed by the 2-4-2 A330/340, to a 10-abreast 777 and fortunately there aren't many routes where you don't have a more comfortable option.

Agreed. I was disappointed when I learned that the A350 was not going to be built on the AIrbus 330/300 2-4-2 standard. (BTW will the A350 be fitted to 10 abreast in economy? I know 9 for sure). Its mentioned that we on this board notice more than the flying public-that maybe true, BUT that is because was all in the know. I'm sure you quiz any average joe who just got off a 12 hour 10 abreast flight and they'll tell you no matter how good the food, great the staff and wonderful the IFE, something was indeed "off" that they felt overly cramped and uncomfortable.
 
SPREE34
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:20 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
and folks continuing to fly that airline

The #1 reason standards have gone where they have.

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
The average passenger apparently does not care.

Same as above.
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CXfirst
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
I'll need to look but I don't recall any major airlines flying the 772 at 10 across on long haul flights. They are at nine across.

EK does.

I have flown EK's 10-abreast configuration, and I have to say that I did not like it very much. The seat itself wasn't all too different, and I would say comfort depends on the seat itself (many 9-abreast carriers have worse seats), as well as other factors. In fact, I would argue the biggest thing affecting comfort on long-haul flights are IFE boxes under the seat.

However, on night flights, I enjoy aisle seats as they let me go stretch my legs without climbing over anyone, but on EK flights I kept on being bumped into, much more than any other airline.

-CXfirst
 
connies4ever
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 5):
Premium economy at 9 abreast is an interesting concept.

FYI, AC's proposed Y+ product for the 5 new-build 77W's is showing 8 abreast in a 2-4-2 arrangement. Only 24 seats, mind you. Perhaps that could be expanded at the cost of a few 'regular' Y seats.
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Viscount724
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When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:34 am

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 22):
Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
I'll need to look but I don't recall any major airlines flying the 772 at 10 across on long haul flights. They are at nine across.

EK does.

Also AF which converted their 772s from 9-abreast to 10-abreast at least a couple of years ago. KLM 772s are still 9-abreast while their 77Ws are 10-abreast.
 
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GSPFlyer
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):
And the fourth-biggest US 777 operator doesn't take passengers.

Sorry to nit-pick at your post, but FX is the third largest American 777 operator. DL is fourth.

UA: 74
AA: 53
FX: 23
DL:18
 
tim
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:23 am

Living in Perth we have 777 options galore daily from Perth-Asia & the Middle East connecting to the USA/Europe. I go out of my way to fly Qatar on the way to Europe purely for the fact that they have 9 abreast 77L/Winstead of 10 like EK. Feels less cramped to me and seems to be more shoulder space.
 
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neutrino
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:18 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
I don't have an issue paying a bit more in exchange for a bit more room.

The key lies in the defination of "a bit" for both the squeeze and the moolah. What is the tipping point for how much more to ante up for how many fractions of an inch wider bum space?
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zeke
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:34 am

Quoting Arcano (Thread starter):
When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

As far as I am aware, it is not standard, it is a customer option.
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sailas
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:03 am

Back in 2005 i flew AF with the 772ER, and that had 9 abreast. Also i was on the last row with my friend where there are only 2 seats. I am 170cm and average so to me it was more than plenty of space. I did however find AYs a333 with their 242 config to be very uncomfy when full.
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TGV
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:26 am

Quoting sonomaflyer (Reply 1):
Many of us on this board however do care. If I'm flying Y class, I will go out of my way to book an airline with more comfortable seating layouts on long haul flights. I don't have an issue paying a bit more in exchange for a bit more room.

  

Quoting longhauler (Reply 2):
I have sat in a mockup with 9 and 10 abreast in the same interior. If I had no one next to me, I could not tell the difference. I only noticed it when sitting with someone on both sides. 10 abreast middle seats are tight, but for a window seat, I could not feel any difference since I tend to lean away from the middle seat anyway.

I have sat twice in a 10 abreast AF 777 in 2008 and vowed never to set foot again in such a cabin. Impossible to sleep since I was stuck both times between the wall (I select window seats as much as possible), the seat having on this side a paper thin armrest preventing me to lean toward the wall, and a pssenger (on this side the paper thin armest means you are in permanent contact with your neighbour, every time he moves you feel it. Woul have I had free seats next to me my opinion could be different, but I don't want to take the risk !
Since then I have used airlines that do not have 10 abreast 777.
Most of my trips were therefore done with CX, SQ, LH, BA and IB, depending on the destinations.And sometimes AF, if the flight was with another plane.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
My final comment is that long haul economy is a miserable and uncomfortable experience regardless of your seat. It is the cheapest way to travel and airlines know that people care most about cost. A cheaper ticket would make them happier than 1 inch of width. We all appreciate better, but don't want to pay for it. Premium economy is coming and is a good option if you value a little more comfort or are a person of size.

Normal eco is still bearable on some airlines. Just flew from France to Vietnam on SQ.

AF was not an option as it is a 777. I nevertheless checked their Premium Eco (which is correct, I flew them already), it was costing more than 2000 euros and it was 3,5 months before the date of my trip ! For me Premium Eco should not be more than 50% of the normal Eco.

So I selected Singapore Airlines (not the cheapest option, but I am not looking at price only) : the CDG-SIN flight is operated with an A 380, very comfortable and spacious, the flight from SIN to Vietnam was with a 777, and 9 abreast, even for the short duration. I did not regret my choice, even if the total travel time is a little longer : when you arrive you don't need 2 days to recuperate !

On this board we may not represent the majority of flyers, but we have a number of flights per year probably higher the "normal" people.
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enginebird
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:35 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 5):
Air France has 10 abreast on long haul 777s. We also know their hard product in all classes lags their competition for comfort. Premium economy at 9 abreast is an interesting concept. Basically you are paying more for the width that was industry standard 15 years ago.

This could precisely be the reason for making Y seating as uncomfortable and service in Y as minimal as possible: To get people to pay extra for what they used to get for "free".

Those who do not care compare prices with some kind of a search engine anyway and often take the cheapest offer, irrespective of airline, plane type, travel time, number of stops, and qualitiy of seating in Y. -- Hate the 10 across on AF and JJ and do not fly them anymore. But then again, I also find the 9-abreast 777 the most uncomfortable widebody around...

[Edited 2013-02-11 00:43:15]
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:41 am

Quoting deltaflyertoo (Reply 20):
(BTW will the A350 be fitted to 10 abreast in economy? I know 9 for sure)

Airbus is/was studying a 10 abreast layout for the A350 and I believe AirAsia X is going for it.



It will be a tight cabin!

[Edited 2013-02-11 00:43:19]
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bastew
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:49 am

I guess competitive advantage and potential revenue and yields will always dictate such decisions. The more airlines that adapt to the new layout, the more that will change. Will price sensitive Y class passengers really fork out hundreds of extra dollars to fly with an airline because they retain nine abreast seating?

It's interesting to note that even when the 747 was first launched it was with a Y configuration of 3x4x2 - 9 abreast. How many operators now use this configuration?

And look at the 787 - touted as the 'dreamliner' with it's spacious Y accommodations - 2 x 4 x 2. How many of the airlines that have so far launched the aircraft actually used that configuration? Most have gone for 3x3x3. Even BA, despite retaining 9 abreast seating on their 777's (for now).
 
AirbusA6
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:50 am

As I've said here many times, there is an inconsistency where airliners like EK and AF operate the 777 at 10Y, and also operate the much wider A380 at 10Y! The same airline, the same Y class, but significantly different levels of comfort.

For example, looking at Seat Guru for AF
A380 in Y, 19" width
A330 18"
744 17.5"
77W 17"

and comparing with short haul
A320 18"

I've been on an AF 77W, and it wasn't pleasant. You also really notice the difference in aisle width, they use special trolleys to fit...
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rwsea
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:18 am

I've never flown 10-abreast economy and never will. I flew this January on AMS-BKK-AMS with KL's 773 in business class. I took a walk back to economy and it looked extremely crowded and tight (load factor of 100% too). No way would I put myself through that, even in "Economy Comfort". There's other options on the same route (BR, CI) that offer standard width. No matter what anyone tries to say, there's no way that 10-abreast is as comfortable as 9-abreast... especially when you consider the extra strain on the restrooms, overhead bins, aisles, etc.
 
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:24 am

The 777 in 10 abreast is fantastic for the airline accountants but not for the passengers. My next trip is on QR in a 77W, EK have better timing but I will go with QR. If EK had operated the 380 or 345 I would have gone with them.
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AAplat4life
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:41 am

Does anyone think that AA will have to rethink its 10 abreast seating if UA and DL stay with nine abreast in their 777s? It could be a competitive disadvantage if someone makes a publicity campaign out of it.
 
skipness1E
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting AAplat4life (Reply 37):
Does anyone think that AA will have to rethink its 10 abreast seating if UA and DL stay with nine abreast in their 777s? It could be a competitive disadvantage if someone makes a publicity campaign out of it.

Nope.

Quoting cv990coronado (Reply 36):
The 777 in 10 abreast is fantastic for the airline accountants

Accountants have no relation to this subject matter, you are mixing accountancy up with airline yield management. They're not the same field at all.

The bottom line is that ten abreast is here to stay for economy and done properly no one need notice, like Emirates. Done badly like Air France, it's a poor experience. Even Air New Zealand bang in ten abreast on the B77W. It's like the upstairs lounge on the B747, if your competitors are monetising the asset, you're an idiot not to. If you want more space then travel down the front and pay the going rate.
 
raffik
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:18 pm

I've flown both 9 abreast and 10 abreast and I personally cannot tell a difference. I'm not the slimmest guy around but I found the seat to be perfectly acceptable . This was with Emirates and the lovely 34" seat pitch which could have helped!
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KarelXWB
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:30 pm

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
The bottom line is that ten abreast is here to stay for economy and done properly no one need notice, like Emirates. Done badly like Air France, it's a poor experience. Even Air New Zealand bang in ten abreast on the B77W. It's like the upstairs lounge on the B747, if your competitors are monetising the asset, you're an idiot not to. If you want more space then travel down the front and pay the going rate.

I have no experience with both airlines but I'm interested to know why the Air France cabin is so bad and the EK cabin is better. Wider seats/aisles? Better seat pitch?
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RussianJet
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:31 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 3):
My final comment is that long haul economy is a miserable and uncomfortable experience regardless of your seat.

I personally don't agree with this. It can be so, but I don't find it always to be the case. Perhaps it's because God didn't bless me with great stature, but I'm generally pretty comfortable if it's a half-decent airline. I quite enjoy the time locked away from the world with good entertainment choices and time to relax and think. Of course the major caveat is, as I already intimated, whether the airline is good in terms of service and facilities. It's not that hard to pick a reasonable one though and figure out what the equipment will be. Seating configuration is a factor, but the service and entertainment is far more important to me.
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cv990Coronado
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:19 pm

"Quoting skipness1E"
"Accountants have no relation to this subject matter, you are mixing accountancy up with airline yield management. They're not the same field at all."

My apologies. I was referring to "accountants" as a general term for employees who are responsible for the financial well being of the business. They by their very nature would be impressed by the economics of 10 abreast. Passengers and the marketing departments might well have a different opinion.

"Quoting skipness1E"

"The bottom line is that ten abreast is here to stay for economy and done properly no one need notice, like Emirates. Done badly like Air France, it's a poor experience. Even Air New Zealand bang in ten abreast on the B77W. It's like the upstairs lounge on the B747, if your competitors are monetising the asset, you're an idiot not to. If you want more space then travel down the front and pay the going rate."

I think infrequent travellers would probably not notice and if they did it wouldn't matter too much. However frequent travellers and those like myself who often travel in higher classes would. The question is would the potential loss of business be offset with the lower operating costs of the more dense configuration? I think the answer depends on the airline, it's yield and it's routes. This is why many airlines still have 9 abreast and are still ordering 777's in 9 abreast i.e BA, SQ, QR and CX .
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CXB77L
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting Arcano (Thread starter):
But now I see more and more airlines going 3-4-3, which was the standard for wider 747s

This phenomenon you speak of is not exclusive to the 777. It's happened before and it will happen again. 747s at launch came "standard" with a 3-4-2 configuration, but as the price of fuel increased, so too did the airlines try to recouperate those extra costs by installing extra seats. Gone were the lounges on board early 747-100s, but were instead replaced by seats. L-1011s and DC-10s had configurations ranging from 8 to 10 across.

Some A350XWBs are reportedly going to be configured with a 3-4-3 configuration. Given that their fuselage is narrower than the 777, it stands to reason that either the seat or the aisle, or both, will be somewhat narrower. I also think it's a matter of time before some A380 operators adopts an 11-across economy configuration on the main deck so that they can fit 800 seats in a three or four class layout.

Quoting bastew (Reply 33):
It's interesting to note that even when the 747 was first launched it was with a Y configuration of 3x4x2 - 9 abreast. How many operators now use this configuration?

And look at the 787 - touted as the 'dreamliner' with it's spacious Y accommodations - 2 x 4 x 2. How many of the airlines that have so far launched the aircraft actually used that configuration? Most have gone for 3x3x3. Even BA, despite retaining 9 abreast seating on their 777's (for now).

  
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 25):
Sorry to nit-pick at your post, but FX is the third largest American 777 operator. DL is fourth.

UA: 74
AA: 53
FX: 23
DL:18

Didn't know that FX was third now. Thanks.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 38):
It's like the upstairs lounge on the B747, if your competitors are monetising the asset, you're an idiot not to. If you want more space then travel down the front and pay the going rate.

With a growing number of airlines offering Y+ sections, I see 10-abreast becoming the de facto Y standard for the 777 in five years. If airlines fly the 777 and want to put more bums on seats (as Eddie Rickenbacker would say) at minimal cost, they will have to at least look into 10-abreast 777s closely.
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aviasian
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:44 pm

I flew on EK's 10-abreast B77W from Bangkok to Dubai and Houston ... and back. And even at a height of just 1.64m, I swear I would not fly this again if I had a choice.

it is not so much about how comfortable the seat is (or not) ... if you have a neighbour sitting next to you who keeps to his space, it might not be too bad. But if your neighbour believes he needs to share his hairy arm with you the whole journey ... or sends his foot across to your side seeking more room to stretch his legs ... it becomes a horrible experience.

And guess what ... I had similarly horrible experiences on all four sectors. And there is one more thing about having the thinnest of aisle ... during meal service, I lost count of the number of times the service trolley hits the seats along the aisle. So those seated along the aisle had better watch their feet, their elbows, their shoulders and their ears.

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seabosdca
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:49 pm

Yes, 1 inch is very noticeable, especially for those of us with wide shoulders. In a 17.2" seat (737/757/747/10Y 777), if I'm in a center seat, I physically can't help but encroach on at least one of my neighboring seats with my shoulders unless I twist in the seat.

That said, the considerable majority of the people who buy Y tickets have decided they'd rather have less comfort and a lower fare. I agree with them in most cases, although I try my best to get an aisle or window to avoid inconveniencing fellow pax.
 
brilondon
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 46):

Yes, 1 inch is very noticeable, especially for those of us with wide shoulders. In a 17.2" seat (737/757/747/10Y 777), if I'm in a center seat, I physically can't help but encroach on at least one of my neighboring seats with my shoulders unless I twist in the seat.

I agree. I have broad shoulders and find that Y class is getting to be uncomfortably small. I believe that the airlines are just trying to keep the fares down until they can develop a way of putting seats in the lower cabin (baggage hold) next they will keep stuffing Y class more and more. BTW, luggage will only be available to those who can fly in F/C/Y+, for those in cattle class you have to stuff your one carry on and that will be the way the airlines increase the revenue while transporting those who want the extra services to pay for the extras like seats with windows, seat belts, boarding by the airbridge, a water service, etc.
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jayunited
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 10):
UA (both sUA and sCO aircraft) have both always been 9-abreast. The sUA planes were refurbed with AVOD and new seats in Y (3-3-3 instead of the original 2-5-2) not all that long ago, as were the sCO planes. But if UA orders 77Ws instead of converting their A350XWB-900 orders to A350XWB-1000s, I could see UA going for 10-abreast on the 77W to bring seating capacity in line with the 744s that need to be replaced.

I think you nailed the answer right there.

Years ago Boeing advertised the 773 as a possible replacement for airlines aging 747 fleet. When you look at most airlines 747 fleet you will see that most airlines have a pretty large business class onboard their 747s anywhere between 50 to 70 seats for most airlines. Most airlines who now operate the 773 in a 3 class setting have anywhere between 40-56 seats in business class and lot of those airlines who operate the 773 in a 3 class or higher setting are now offering most business class passengers direct access to the isle. Offering direct access to the isle takes up a lot of room onboard the plane especially when you have 40 or more seats in business class. So in order for for the 773 in a 3 class or higher setting to get anywhere close to the seating capacity we see on the 747's the airlines have no choice except to go with 10 abreast in coach.

The 2 airlines that comes to mind that does not have 10 abreast seating in coach on their 3 class 773 is SQ and CX. If you look at the number of seats they have in coach it is more on par with the seating capacity we see in coach on a 772 and while this arrangement works for these airlines I think most other airlines are looking to squeeze at least 240 people in coach on their 773 and in order to hit that number while offering direct access to the isle in business means airlines have to go with 10 abreast in coach.
 
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RE: When Did 10 Abreast 777 Become Standard?

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 43):
This phenomenon you speak of is not exclusive to the 777. It's happened before and it will happen again. 747s at launch came "standard" with a 3-4-2 configuration, but as the price of fuel increased, so too did the airlines try to recouperate those extra costs by installing extra seats. Gone were the lounges on board early 747-100s, but were instead replaced by seats. L-1011s and DC-10s had configurations ranging from 8 to 10 across.

But there is a limit. How narrow can seats get, especially on 12 hour long haul flights, before there may be medical issues with lack of blood flow to the arms say? With (no offence intended) fatter peoples like, ahem, Americans, when will the first lawsuit about this happen? In an emergency, with the narrower aisle, how long will it take to evacuate the plane? What if someone gets stuck?

A lot of the customers on EK will be of Asian build, i.e. smaller so will fit better. My Chinese relatives in Malaysia would probably fit quite well into Air Asia X's 9Y A330 or even a 10Y A350!
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