tristan7977
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757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:54 pm

I've noticed there are very few 757's that have the Pratt & Whitney engine option. What were the airlines that had P&W powered 757's? I'm new to Airliners.net so pardon me if this is a commonly answered question.
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CF-CPI
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:58 pm

Big ones are Delta and United(pre-merger).
 
skymiler
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:59 pm

All of DL's have P&W -- and it is one of the largest fleets! They took the former TWA 752's from AA as they were oddballs in AA's RR powered fleet, and are not afraid to add PW powered 752's on an opportunistic basis
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EireRock
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:00 pm

Air Italy also operated a few PW2000 powered 757's
 
tristan7977
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:05 pm

Delta of course, United pre-merger of course, and Air Force One 757 I think.

I never knew Air Italy had PW 757's. Any others? Or is that it.
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tristan7977
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:08 pm

FedEx has a few PW 757's I believe, but it was mostly RR.
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hotplane
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:12 pm

Ethiopian, UPS, Uzbekistan.
?
 
Viscount724
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting Tristan7977 (Thread starter):
I've noticed there are very few 757's that have the Pratt & Whitney engine option. What were the airlines that had P&W powered 757's?

From Boeing orders/deliveries data, original 757 customers with P&W engines (number of aircraft in parentheses):

Condor (17 752s; their 13 753s are R-R)
Delta (116)
Ethiopian (5)
Far Eastern Air Transport (Taiwan) (7)
ILFC (Leasing company) (38; also 44 R-R)
Northwest (72)
Shanghai Airlines (13)
TWA (14)
United (98)
UPS (first 35; last 40 are R-R)
USAF (4)
Uzbekistan Airlines (3)

That's 40% of all 757s built. I don't consider that "very few".

[Edited 2013-02-10 14:26:21]
 
akelley728
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:35 pm

Quoting Tristan7977 (Thread starter):
I've noticed there are very few 757's that have the Pratt & Whitney engine option

432 out of 1089 757s produced (40%) had the PW2000 series engine.

Quoting Tristan7977 (Thread starter):
What were the airlines that had P&W powered 757's?

These were the airlines that ordered P&W 757s:

AWAS  (Ireland) 20
Delta Air Lines  (USA) 116
Ethiopian Airlines  (Ethiopia) 5
Far Eastern Air Transport  (Taiwan) 7
ILFC  (USA) 38
Mid East Jet  (Saudi Arabia) 1
Northwest Airlines  (USA) 72
Royal Air Maroc  (Morocco) 2
Shanghai Airlines  (China) 13
Singapore Airlines  (Singapore) 4
TWA  (USA) 14
United Air Lines  (USA) 133
US Air Force  (USA) 4
Uzbekistan Airways  (Uzbekistan) 3
 
PM
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:43 pm

This comes up every year or two. I always enjoy it when it does.   

1049 produced

617 (59%) with RR

432 (41%) with PW


56 original customers

4 (AWAS, ILFC, Condor, UPS) bought both PW and RR

40 chose RR (77%)

12 chose PW (23%)
 
johnclipper
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:58 pm

how much of a difference in the engine performance?
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hotplane
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:14 pm

Early Eastern frames had their original RRs replaced with the later version.
?
 
shuttle9juliet
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:18 pm

Quoting hotplane (Reply 11):

BA bought all if not most of Easterns RB211 535c s
 
jfk777
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:24 pm

NW was a Pratt 757 operator too. United, Delta and Northwest Orient were the 3 big P and W airlines.
 
platinumfoota
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:35 pm

What about preformance numbers?? Also I have noticed that the RR engines are much louder that the P&W, they sound like old vacuums (figures) ... well at least on the ramp.
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CF-CPI
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:39 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 10):
how much of a difference in the engine performance?

AA went with RR since they guaranteed enough t/o thrust to go MEX-ORD nonstop with a full load. At the time (80s), the P&W 2037 was having higher than advertised fuel burn as well, but I understand the maintenance costs for the Pratts are a bit lower. Of course, all of this was at one time, and things might have changed. It would be great to hear from someone who has flown both and worked on both.
 
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beachbum1970
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 14):
Also I have noticed that the RR engines are much louder that the P&W, they sound like old vacuums (figures) ... well at least on the ramp.

I noticed this too. You really notice it working on the ramp. The P&W engines are much quieter. I've never flown on a RR 757 before. Can anyone verify if the RR's are also noisier in the cabin?
 
DL_Mech
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:23 am

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 8):
United Air Lines (USA) 133

That number includes both PW and RR frames.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:33 am

Welcome to Airliners.net
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MCOflyer
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:37 am

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 16):

Somewhat louder by a few decibles. I noticed that the t/o was quieter than the RR. Because of the demand of the 757, it is common to find mixed engine fleets. ET flies three RR examples in addition to their PW birds. FX and UPS both fly PW and RR examples.

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rwy04lga
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:44 am

Quoting platinumfoota (Reply 14):
What about preformance numbers?? Also I have noticed that the RR engines are much louder that the P&W, they sound like old vacuums (figures) ... well at least on the ramp.

They always think the new guy doesn't know anything. As a new hire with less than a month at Delta, I was deep inside the bin of a MadDog when I heard a plane taking off. I yelled to my coworker at the belt loader 'American 757' and pointed in its direction. I gained quite a bit of 'ramp credibility' from that.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
raddek
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:54 am

I personally loved the sound that the Pratt's have on the 757. I could always tell it was the plane I was going to work just by the sound it made taxi'ing down the ramp  
 
tristan7977
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:14 am

I'm suprised how many P&W 757's there are, but there's still mostly RR's. Great to get a lot of answers from you guys! I'll be asking more sooner or later.
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sparky35805
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:44 am

It is not well known,but GE engines were originally offered on 757s.Americans original 757 order was to have been GE powered.A few others were a;so interested.When American cancelled their original order and trimed their original 767-200 order in the early 80s,Ge stopped development of the engine.
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mah584jr
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting beachbum1970 (Reply 16):
I noticed this too. You really notice it working on the ramp. The P&W engines are much quieter. I've never flown on a RR 757 before. Can anyone verify if the RR's are also noisier in the cabin?

It's interesting you ask! I've actually made a video comparing the two and I agree that the RR's are much louder. Feel free to check it out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVD2NQbthgE
 
sdf880
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:22 am

We have both types here and pretty equally matched. The only thing that stands out to me a bit is the Pratt burns less fuel. Hour leg maybe 300 to 500 pounds less for the Pratt. A M.84 flight to the west coast SDF to west coast may be a difference of 3000 to 4000 pounds fuel burn difference. A few differences noted in MEL items as well but nothing major.

SDF880
 
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seabosdca
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:28 am

The performance differences can be summed up as follows:

P&W: better fuel burn, better total maintenance costs, quieter
RR: marginally better T/O thrust and climb, better dispatch reliability
 
LH707330
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:01 am

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 28):
The performance differences can be summed up as follows:

P&W: better fuel burn, better total maintenance costs, quieter
RR: marginally better T/O thrust and climb, better dispatch reliability

Early on the RR also had a huge MTBO advantage, the Pratts were really new at the time and needed more attention until they matured.
 
goosebayguy
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:45 am

One of the main reasons RR did so well on the 757 was an overall weight saving of 3 tons compared against the PW. Quite a substantial difference.
 
Yukon880
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:40 am

Would a state of the art engine today, comparable in thrust to a 757's PW2000 or RB211, weigh significantly more or less?
Pratt & Whitney, In thrust we trust!
 
RussianJet
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:00 am

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 26):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVD2NQbthgE

Interesting. Not a huge difference from inside the cabin it would seem, at least on takeoff. The RR were slightly noisier, but not a great deal more.
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kc135topboom
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:48 am

Quoting sparky35805 (Reply 25):
It is not well known,but GE engines were originally offered on 757s.Americans original 757 order was to have been GE powered.A few others were a;so interested.When American cancelled their original order and trimed their original 767-200 order in the early 80s,Ge stopped development of the engine. Sparky

Correct, had GE develope an engine for the B-757 it would have been called the CF-6-32. It would have been developed from the CF-6-50 with a smaller fan section and de-rated thrust to about 38,000 lbs.
 
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United_fan
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:23 pm

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 8):
These were the airlines that ordered P&W 757s:

AWAS (Ireland) 20
Delta Air Lines (USA) 116
Ethiopian Airlines (Ethiopia) 5
Far Eastern Air Transport (Taiwan) 7
ILFC (USA) 38
Mid East Jet (Saudi Arabia) 1
Northwest Airlines (USA) 72
Royal Air Maroc (Morocco) 2
Shanghai Airlines (China) 13
Singapore Airlines (Singapore) 4
TWA (USA) 14
United Air Lines (USA) 133
US Air Force (USA) 4
Uzbekistan Airways (Uzbekistan) 3

There is just one RR 757 in the Air Force fleet  
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mah584jr
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:28 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 33):
Interesting. Not a huge difference from inside the cabin it would seem, at least on takeoff. The RR were slightly noisier, but not a great deal more.

The biggest thing I've noticed is that the PW's sound seems to die off a little more quickly as one gains in altitude. Both engines are great in my opinion.
 
RussianJet
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting mah584jr (Reply 36):
The biggest thing I've noticed is that the PW's sound seems to die off a little more quickly as one gains in altitude. Both engines are great in my opinion.

But then again there are potentially variables at play that we don't get to see from our seat, such as at which point the thrust is reduced and by how much etc.
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smittyone
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:42 pm

Quoting Tristan7977 (Thread starter):
I've noticed there are very few 757's that have the Pratt & Whitney engine option.

Forty percent of 757s sold came with P&W powerplants...large fleets to relatively few customers.
 
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garpd
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:09 pm

A friend of mine who deals in aircraft maintenance, sales, leases etc groans each time he's given PW powered 757s to deal with. He says that on paper it should be a better plane than the RR, but in reality the RR is by far the best in terms of payload, range, maintenance and resale value. He says the PWs on the 757 are no better than the hair dryers on the A340-300. (His words exactly! lol) It takes him forever to find new homes for PW 757s, but RR 757s barely get entered into his books they're gone that fast.

The only reason PW powered 757s have 40% of the market (In terms of total numbers built) is because two large airlines bought large fleets of them.
Without those, the split is more 80/20 for RR.

Personally, I like the look and sound of the RB211 more. That awesome buzzsaw sound on takeoff really sings to me.

[Edited 2013-02-11 05:10:03]

[Edited 2013-02-11 05:14:59]
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packsonflight
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:25 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 39):
but in reality the RR is by far the best in terms of payload, range, maintenance and resale value

I know that they used to be bastards operationally, but hasnt that changed to the better over time?

Is this really true regarding the range. I always thought that the PW powered 757 had the edge regarding the range, possibly up to 330 nm.

Can somebody in the know please chip in?
 
Ferroviarius
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:38 pm

Good afternoon,

were the Finnair 757s not P&Ws, too?

Best,
Ferroviarius
 
AY-MD11
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:41 pm

Finnair has P&W engines on the 757. Anyone else noticed that the IAE is lot quieter than CFM on the A32Xs?
 
trnswrld
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:52 pm

The OP kind of made me laugh a little saying that he noticed there are "very few" PW powered 757's, When in reality a couple of the worlds largest airlines and operators of the type are PW powered lol.

One question, I noticed in the numbers above it says TWA had 14 757's. Is that accurate?? I could have sworn they had almost 30 of them. I believe the highest tail number was N727TW and went all the way down to 706TW then 704X etc etc.
 
vv701
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 43):
One question, I noticed in the numbers above it says TWA had 14 757's. Is that accurate??

No.

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 43):
I could have sworn they had almost 30 of them

Yes. As you say N701TW to N703TW, N704X, N705TW to N713TW, N714P and N715TW to N727TW. So 27 in all.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:35 pm

A little history.

Remember RR had *two* engine on the 757-200 where they bought all the early examples.
The 757 was launched with the RB211-535C
Pratt launched the PW2037 with a promised 8% lower fuel burn
RR developed the RB211-535E4 using a *new core.* Yes. A new engine with lower fuel burn (about 5% better).
Pratt missed promised fuel burn by 4% to 5%.
Pratt missed maintenance cycles by half! (3,750 takeoffs between overhauls, vs. 7,500 promised)
RR met their promised fuel burn target and kept improving the E4 (new engine, the one we know)
Pratt improved their fuel burn to meet promise, but so did RR (small advantage Pratt)
The E4 turned out to have a 15,000 cycle life! (RR made an error, they would have had better fuel burn designing right for the intended cycle life) which made Pratt's 3,750 cle life engines look bad.)
Pratt finally put out a PIP that improved the PW2000 cycle life over 7,500 cycles. (IIRC, about 2003. Way too late to matter.)

RR has always had the triple spools advantage in climb fuel burn. So for relatively short missions (e.g, most AA domestic feeding the hubs), there is no fuel burn advantage for Pratt.

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 10):

how much of a difference in the engine performance?

Short haul maintenance advantage RR.
Overhaul cost advantage to Pratt.
Short haul fuel burn advantage RR about 1.5%
About the same fuel burn advantage for Pratt long haul (> 2,000nm).

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 15):
At the time (80s), the P&W 2037 was having higher than advertised fuel burn as well

Quite a bit. That killed the business case as well as the short overhaul interval.

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 15):
I understand the maintenance costs for the Pratts are a bit lower.

Overhaul costs are lower. It depends on the airline mission. For missions under 2 hours, the advantage goes to RR.

Quoting garpd (Reply 39):
It takes him forever to find new homes for PW 757s,

Considering how few airlines fly the type, I'm not surprised. But it is mission dependent on costs. Hence why FedEx is willing to buy both.

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 40):
Is this really true regarding the range. I always thought that the PW powered 757 had the edge regarding the range, possibly up to 330 nm.

Read the above. On long missions Pratt has the advantage in maintenance costs and fuel burn. It is all based on mission length.


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Revelation
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting akelley728 (Reply 8):
432 out of 1089 757s produced (40%) had the PW2000 series engine.

Right, but P&W also sells four of them for every C-17 built, and that fleet is at 250 airframes, thus 1000+ engines right there, and more on order. Between that and the commercial sales, I think Pratt did OK with the product.

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-17_Globemaster_III

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 45):
On long missions Pratt has the advantage in maintenance costs and fuel burn. It is all based on mission length.

Works out well for the USAF missions.
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BlueShamu330s
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:13 pm

And let's not forget, the RB211-535E4 became a world record holder on an Icelandair B757:

Quote:
RESTON, Va., May 13 /PRNewswire/ -- A Rolls-Royce aero engine has set a new world record by completing 31,000 hours on the wing of a Boeing 757 which has been in service for seven years. The RB211-535E4 on an Icelandair Boeing 757 twinjet has broken the record previously hold by a CFM56-3 by over 600 hours and is still flying. The engine is still in service operating on scheduled flights from its Iceland base to the east coast of North America, and several European destinations. David Wicks, Executive Vice President - Customer Business for Rolls-Royce plc said: "The RB211-535E4 is a tremendously reliable engine and this world record is a testament to our partnership with Icelandair, its engineers and pilots." Sigurdur Helgason, President and Chief Executive Officer, Icelandair said: "Operating from our island base, the reliability of our engines is of particular importance. We are proud and delighted to hold this record which further demonstrates that the RB211-535E4 was the right choice for our company." Renowned for its reliability and long life, the 535E4 currently averages more than 15,000 hours on wing before a first maintenance shop visit. The RB211-535 family, ranging between 37,4001b and 43,100lb thrust, has accumulated more than 18 million flying hours at the highest reliability levels in its thrust range. In June 1997, Icelandair increased its order of Boeing 757 airliners and became the first scheduled airline to order the latest 757-300. Today the carrier operates a fleet of five Boeing 757-200s with another due for delivery in 1999. Two Boeing 757-300s will be delivered in 2001 and 2002 and the airline holds a further eight options on the B757-200 with conversion rights to the stretched -300. In a relationship stretching over 40 years, Icelandair's first Rolls-Royce powered aircraft was the Viscount in 1957, followed by the CL44 and Fokker F27 in the 1960s, with the Boeing 757 coming into service in 1990.
PR Newswire
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...e-beats-world-record-77887202.html

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akelley728
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting DL_Mech (Reply 17):
That number includes both PW and RR frames.

Oops, I merged the United and UPS lines on my spreadsheet. Thanks for pointing that out!

AWAS (Ireland) 20
Delta Air Lines (USA) 116
Ethiopian Airlines (Ethiopia) 5
Far Eastern Air Transport (Taiwan) 7
ILFC (USA) 38
Mid East Jet (Saudi Arabia) 1
Northwest Airlines (USA) 72
Royal Air Maroc (Morocco) 2
Shanghai Airlines (China) 13
Singapore Airlines (Singapore) 4
TWA (USA) 14
United Air Lines (USA) 98
UPS (USA) 35
US Air Force (USA) 4
Uzbekistan Airways (Uzbekistan) 3

[Edited 2013-02-11 08:37:53]
 
KELPkid
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 44):
And let's not forget, the RB211-535E4 became a world record holder on an Icelandair B757:

That's possible becuse, IIRC, the 535E4 is very underrated on a 752...the engine is capable of making a lot more thrust than it does on Iclandair's 757s.
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akelley728
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting TrnsWrld (Reply 43):
One question, I noticed in the numbers above it says TWA had 14 757's. Is that accurate??

Yes it is. These were the ones that were ordered by TWA. The rest were leased and came via ILFC.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 44):
As you say N701TW to N703TW, N704X, N705TW to N713TW, N714P and N715TW to N727TW. So 27 in all.


TWA birds: N705TW, N708TW, N711ZX, N714P, N715TW, N716TW, N717TW, N718TW, N719TW, N724TW, N720TW, N725TW, N726TW, N727TW

Note a number of these frames that were ordered by TWA wound up at Pegasus (now AWAS) who leased them back to TWA.

ILFC birds: N703TW, N712TW, N707TW, N701TW, N702TW, N704X, N706TW, N709TW, N710TW, N713TW, N723TW, N722TW, N721TW

[Edited 2013-02-11 08:45:39]
 
XEspecialist
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 12):
BA bought all if not most of Easterns RB211 535c

Not entirely. I had the priviledge to fly on N907AW (aka Phoenix Suns aka Barney) back in early 1998 BWI-PHX F class and experienced a flashback when I used the forward lav. It still had the EA wall treatment showing all the destinations in various fonts. Ironically USAir bought several aircraft from the EA fire sale and now the sister ships once separated were reunited (if only for a few years.

Interesting point to note:

Northwest divested itself of the RR powered Republic airframes totaling 6 at the time of purchase.
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RE: 757 Rolls Royce VS Pratt & Whitney

Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting XEspecialist (Reply 48):

Didn't all those ex-Republic birds go to HP? (at a steep discount?)

[Edited 2013-02-11 09:23:35]
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