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DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:51 pm

http://www.demerarawaves.com/index.p...s-georgetown-new-york-flights.html

"Delta Airlines has decided to pull out of Guyana, ending its five year old direct charter service between New York and Georgetown, well-placed sources said."
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:54 pm

Can't say I'm surprised. Seems like a 75E wasn't a great plane for the route to begin with.
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OOer
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:00 pm

Why wasn't the 75E a great plane for it?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:01 pm

I don't know if it was a very business-heavy route. It seemed like a domestic 757 would've been better. But that is only my thought, I could be completely off base.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
OOer
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:04 pm

A 757 was originally used but was constantly weight restricted because of heavy cargo loads. At times DL even put a 767 on the route.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 4):

See, I didn't know that. Thanks!  
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:17 pm

BW always owned the market with aggressive fares, but I thought they were still good enough for DL. Guess not.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:53 pm

what do they mean by charter route
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Tdan
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:46 pm

Surprising that it didn't work out for DL as the fares seemed to be pretty good. It's a tough market because the traffic is so concentrated and more or less controlled by a few travel agencies. As a result, the route has been an airline graveyard since carriers have very little leverage to generate profits. Just as Mav points out, BW has owned this traffic forever and they can be more aggressive in price since they supplement it with POS traffic.

Additionally, traffic isn't exactly growing and the market seems to be aging a bit.
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guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

Actually BW didnot "always" own the JFK GEO market. They built market share by offering more flights (when they went double daily), lower airfares, and more liberal baggage allowances. With nonstops, instead of via POS) they have now cemented this.

BW was usually the least preferred option (when there was DL and another service by a charter) as the competition offered nonstops, while they offered a POS stop.

Low fares that both BW and DL offered to fend off Ezjet, and now continued low fares by BW to ensure that its nonstops are full) is probably what drove DL off.

What used to be a high yield route US$700-800 in NON PEAK periods, has become much lower yielding.

[Edited 2013-02-11 12:24:18]
 
OOer
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:25 pm

It's interesting that apparently this route is not profitable.

I just looked up fares online just to see.

JFK-GEO R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $601 (2,539 miles)

JFK-LAX R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $327 (2,475 miles)

Same distance, same equipment, GEO staffed with 1 less flight attendant (Savings of about $300 each way for Delta), fares on GEO about double what they are on LAX, and the route isn't profitable?

I think something else is going on. If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and smells like a duck...
 
guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):

Remember that there are many on the LAX route who pay way more than the lowest coach fare as many travel upfront, or need fares that allow flexibility as they travel on business.

GEO every one pays the listed fare, except when the plane is full, as it is basically expat Guyanese returning home on visits. DL needs to match BW, which needs to fill is 221 seats on its nonstop as Trinis arenot likely to use bthat flight.

DL used to charge 50% more and so apparently have decided that, with the route no longer high yielding, it no longer makes sense.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 9):
Actually BW didnot "always" own the JFK GEO market

It has owned the market for years, before, during, and after DL (and EZ, who I forgot and/or blinked) offered nonstops.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 9):
BW was usually the least preferred option

Clearly it's quite preferred as even with a nonstop on DL it still commands the majority of the market

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):

Same distance, same equipment, GEO staffed with 1 less flight attendant (Savings of about $300 each way for Delta), fares on GEO about double what they are on LAX, and the route isn't profitable?

   My hunch is two things: 1) the LAX market has some very high fare walkups/corporate traffic that GEO definitely does not outside of peak season traffic and 2) you're not seeing the consolidator/off tariff fares that may be what most of the passengers may be buying.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
airfrancejfk
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:14 pm

Sad but not surprising. Delta really hasn't changed its operations since starting ops to GEO 5 years ago, while BW has gone from once to twice daily from JFK with non stop flights included as well. The nonstop thing was Delta's main drawing point and BW is matching and surpassing then point for point. Include BW's variety of flights both direct, nonstop and connections via POS along with a more lenient baggage allowance and you have your answer. BW's additional feed from POS is a huge money maker for them on the route as is their ability to uplift fuel at a much lower fee than is available in GEO.

Lets also not forget that the Guyana government officially gave flag carrier status to BW a few months back and the writing was pretty much on the wall. Still, sad to see GEO go back to a one airline operation.
 
guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 9:54 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):

Maverick I am Guyanese and I am quite aware of which airline Guyanese used. The JFK GEO route is a 2 carrier route. In days past when ever a third carrier entered the market with nonstp charters the airline which suffered was BWIA. Why? because of its dreaded POS stop which Guyanese despised..


I do not know if you have a Caribbean background but I can discuss the "But Will It Arrive", "Be Waiting Indefinietly at Airport", "BetterWalk If Able", that drove many away from the old BWIA. This including Guyanese, who had the additional issue of the cruelty endured at Piarco at the hands of BWIAground and T&T officials. This when ever BWIA decided to dump them when a plane, that was supposed to go to JFK with a stop in POS, was suddenly diverted upon arrival at POS. Leaving Guyanese stranded and having to sleep ON THE GROUND. Not only was I told this by Guyanese, but even BWEE staff who I met mentioned this. They because they then had to handle irate passengers because of factors beyond their control.

BWIA dominated the overall market into GEO but not the JFK market, except in short periods when various fly by night charters collapsed.

In fact the reason for Carib Air aggressively going after EZjet was in realization of previous times when the previous BWIA was complacent and suffered. When Universal came in, they pushed out BWIA out of the JFK GEO. Ditto when Travelspan came in. NORTH AMERICAN became the leading carrier to GEO from JFK before they pulled out.

Caribbean Air aggressively countered Ez by cutting fares and introducing nonstops. They did so at great cost as the wet lease expenses and the sharp drop in fares must have hurt them. They have achieved their goal which was killing off Ezjet and have a bonus with the withdrawal of DL.


Note that BWIA had 16 flights per week out of JFK with decent numbers going into BGI and ANU. Carib Air, with no service to those two islands, is carrying 50% more on its E/Caribbean routes, much of this due to increased traffic into GEO ex JFK. .While there has been some increase in TOTAL JFK GEO traffic, it isnt up 50%.

Quoting airfrancejfk (Reply 13):

This is exactly the point. The NEW BW did things that the OLD BWIA did not do and as a result now dominate the JFK GEO route, which means that for the FIRST time, they will likely have a monopoly on that route....that is untl some other lunatic thinks that they can start another fly by night.
 
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OA260
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:08 pm

Im surprised they held on for 5 years ! Guyana-USA/Canada is a very hard route to maintain.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 14):
Why? because of its dreaded POS stop which Guyanese despised..

Indeed my relatives always hated POS transit.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 7):
what do they mean by charter route

Typo/error . It was scheduled.

Still its a shame that a major carrier such as DL and a major Alliance member will pull out it is certainly bad news for GEO.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:39 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 14):
Maverick I am Guyanese and I am quite aware of which airline Guyanese used. The JFK GEO route is a 2 carrier route. In days past when ever a third carrier entered the market with nonstp charters the airline which suffered was BWIA. Why? because of its dreaded POS stop which Guyanese despised..

Believe me, I've heard this story a million times before, whether it's every Latin American saying how awful AA is, or PIT pax wishing for an alternative to US, or any number of markets where people are just clamoring for competition. And what happens? People don't put their money where their mouth is, and continue flying the incumbent carrier. People may not like BW, and I don't doubt that, but they certainly haven't stopped flying BW (or AA or US or whatever) either. Since 2008 BW has had well over half of the market, regardless of any other nonstop, so no matter how much people despise it, the overwhelming majority of them are giving BW their money.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
BigMac
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:55 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 14):
that is untl some other lunatic thinks that they can start another fly by night.

That will be PY I guess...  
They are planning on starting a non stop GEO-JFK route this year (with a 737?). They were/are supposed to receive a 3rd 737 this spring (I think I read in January but it's already mid February so)...
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guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11
(Reply 16):


With maybe 100k passengers traveling between JFK/FLL/MIA and GEo it isnt a bad route, especially as most are out of JFK. It just cant support more than 2 carriers.

Now you modify your statement to "since 2008". That is very different from saying that they "Always", because then you would have to have included the period between 2002-2007 when they (BWIA) was a distant third on the JFK GEO.


So by 2008.

1. The Old BWIA was dead. Caribbean Airlines replaced them. The new BW has a much better on time performance, while maintaining the OLD BWIA's Caribbean ambience (warm and friendly, even in coach).

2. The assorted charters which serviced and dominated the JFK GEO (North American and Universal or Travelspan, depending on which year) were gone.

DL charged higher fares than BW and had stricter baggage, so soon lost the number 1 that North American had. And since last year they lost their main claim which was being the only credible airline with nonstops on the JFK GEO. Along the way BW increased its service to double daily vs DL with its 4X weekly and on Tu/We/Th (not popular days) plus Sunday.


DL was also more interested in high yield, rather than market share, so charged more than BW, knowing that many (40-45%) would pay the premium for the convenience of avoiding POS.


Now with nonstops on the days when people want to travel, Th/Sa/Sun, DL is history, now being the #2, so having to match the fare sof the #1. They decided to exit instead.
 
martinrpo1
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:39 pm

I think AA should try it from MIA. MIA-PMB and MIA-GEO could work well in AA metal.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:34 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 10):

It's interesting that apparently this route is not profitable.

I just looked up fares online just to see.

JFK-GEO R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $601 (2,539 miles)

JFK-LAX R/T on 4/22-4/29 = $327 (2,475 miles)

Same distance, same equipment, GEO staffed with 1 less flight attendant (Savings of about $300 each way for Delta), fares on GEO about double what they are on LAX, and the route isn't profitable?

I think something else is going on. If it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, and smells like a duck...

Man, that is completely not that way to analyze performance.

DOT average one-way fare for Delta in 3Q13 was $241 for JFK-LAX. JFK-GEO was less than 10% higher. However, Delta has massive economies of scale in the LAX that it does not have in GEO. Delta Load Factors for JFK-LAX were also over 8 points higher for YE Oct13. The other major factor at play here is that JFK-LAX has significant online and interline international connections at both ends. Pro-rated segment fares for these paxs likely greatly exceed the local fares. JFK-GEO, on the other hand, is primarily local traffic.

Also, Delta operates several daily flights in the JFK-LAX, some of which are going to be under-performers due to timing. This can affect overall market performance, but not impact the strategic necessity to keep the flying. Red-eyes are a great example of flying that brings down the average. On the other hand, the JFK-GEO schedule is the best its going to get.
 
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 18):

Now you modify your statement to "since 2008".

I meant it as BW was 'always' flying a strong JFKGEO schedule, whether nonstop or via POS, while DL was flying the flight, as well as before. Regardless, the point is that despite how much people 'hate' BW and POS, they are pretty much flocking to BW versus the nonstop.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 20):

Man, that is completely not that way to analyze performance.

With a little context, it's a useful data point. But it's interesting you bring up JFKLAX, because I'm fairly confident DL is losing its shirt on both JFKGEO and JFKLAX. However, whereas GEO is almost 100% local and cutting it does nothing to the network, JFKLAX is an important component of the network that DL can't really afford not to fly.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:05 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
With a little context, it's a useful data point. But it's interesting you bring up JFKLAX, because I'm fairly confident DL is losing its shirt on both JFKGEO and JFKLAX. However, whereas GEO is almost 100% local and cutting it does nothing to the network, JFKLAX is an important component of the network that DL can't really afford not to fly.

But there wasn't any context. You can't take a random internet search fare and make ANY sort of reasonable assumptions about route performance. Its not remotely defensible from an analytical perspective.

I'm relatively confident that JFKLAX is a stronger performer than you think, but I think your point about network importance is totally accurate.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:30 am

When I left DL in 2009 that flight's number 1 problem was over booking. There was a nightly over-sale of at least 10 passengers. I can't say with certainty but if you bump 10 people every night from your flight that is not going to make for happy customers.
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lychemsa
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:01 am

North American pulled out. Guyana Airways went bankrupt.

A friend from Guyana prefers Delta over Caribbean Airways. Said it was awful and would only fly Delta next time.

She will be disappointed.
 
peanuts
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:05 am

Can we just call it what it is...er...was without having to get analytical every time? It was simply an odd ball route. And to even compare a route like this with pricing/distance to a route like LAX is just reaching if you'd ask me.
Obviously GEO became a headache for DL that wasn't worth having.
 
guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:06 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):

Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full. This was to allow them to extort US$700-800 from COACH passengers. In fact many times folks checked DL to discover that only business class was available, so gritted their teeth to endure the POS stop over on BW.

There was always much stronger demand for a nonstop JFK GEO than DL was willing to supply. The comments made about DL overbooking and how "awful" BW was made by other posters indicates that. I can only imagine that "awful" with refrence to BW was becasue of its POS stop, as others have commented on how shabby the DL planes to GEO are,and how rudimentry their inflight service is even in business class.

This provded room for BW to gain market share. Liberal baggage policies and lower fares,plus the fact that DL was often fully booked allowed BW market share despite the dreaded POS stop. Then BW opened up double daiy service, which frther increased travel options.


Bt to say that BW "always" dopminated the route is blatantly false as between 2002/7 they were a non factor, and from 2008 made a concerted effort to gain market share.

Guyanese did and Do hate POS intransits. Why do you think that BW, at great cost to itself, introduced nonstops from YYZ and JFK, once excess capacity emerged oin these markets with the arrival of Ezjet? They have had to use wet leasees unil recently. Both BW and DL had to endure losses to protect their market share from EZjet,

.
 
bobnwa
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full.

Please explain what in the hell you mean.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full. This was to allow them to extort US$700-800 from COACH passengers. In fact many times folks checked DL to discover that only business class was available, so gritted their teeth to endure the POS stop over on BW.

There was always much stronger demand for a nonstop JFK GEO than DL was willing to supply. The comments made about DL overbooking and how "awful" BW was made by other posters indicates that. I can only imagine that "awful" with refrence to BW was becasue of its POS stop, as others have commented on how shabby the DL planes to GEO are,and how rudimentry their inflight service is even in business class.

So everyone hates BW, but DL didn't add enough seats, DL had 'rudimentary' inflight service, and they all flew BW anyway in spite of their whinging and moaning, and now they're left with nothing but BW, which they hate. Passengers get what they pay for, so enjoy BW!

Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Guyanese did and Do hate POS intransits. Why do you think that BW, at great cost to itself, introduced nonstops from YYZ and JFK, once excess capacity emerged oin these markets with the arrival of Ezjet? They have had to use wet leasees unil recently. Both BW and DL had to endure losses to protect their market share from EZjet,

A quick google search of EZjet turns up links to stories about embezzlement, accusations, and their website doesn't allow bookings after 2012. I don't think any one was worried about EZjet doing anything,.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
abrelosojos
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 6):

BW always owned the market with aggressive fares, but I thought they were still good enough for DL. Guess not.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 12):
Clearly it's quite preferred as even with a nonstop on DL it still commands the majority of the market

= You do realize that BWIA is still subsidized and does unfair competition. They pay 60c (or something similarly absurd) for fuel.

Saludos,
Alex

[Edited 2013-02-13 17:22:23]
Live, and let live.
 
guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 27):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):

I made my points perfectly clear about where BWIA was up to its demise in 2006. The charters (including North American) dominated the JFK GEO route. So where is this "always dominated"?

Let me ask you a question. You leave JFK at 1 AM, Arrive at POS at 6AM. Must wait on the plane. as you are not allowed to disembark, until 7:30AM departure with an arrival in GEO one hour later. Because the crews are changing and the plane is being cleaned you are offered NO SERVICE during this period @ POS. And you are not allowed to disembark while intransit to purchase coffee, juice or what ever either.

Now who in their rational thinking would like this? NO ONE.

You chose it because your alternate options are limited. The competition is too expensivve, has too strict baggage rules, and offers too few seats. Delta could do this because the demand for their services was high relative to their willingness to supply.

Delta ran off singing merrily with loads in excess of 90%, dumping passengers some one else wrote, so many who would have preferred the nonstop COULD NOT USE IT!!!

CAL knew perfectly well that Ezjet would have brought in more nonstop seats and so their passengers would have galloped over to them So they IMMEDIATELY matched this with even MORE liberal baggage rules and INTRODUCED nonstops even though it meant have to use a wetleased plane.

Now if I were to follow your line of thinking, there would have been no need to introduce nonstops because people would have stayed with CAL. Clearly CAL was less confident of this than you are. So they were willing to incur losses by the wet lease costs and by a sharp cut in fares, to protect their market share.

Remember that this is Ezjet that they had this reaction to. Not some big name brand like Jetblue.
 
usflyer msp
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
You chose it because your alternate options are limited. The competition is too expensivve, has too strict baggage rules, and offers too few seats. Delta could do this because the demand for their services was high relative to their willingness to supply.

Delta ran off singing merrily with loads in excess of 90%, dumping passengers some one else wrote, so many who would have preferred the nonstop COULD NOT USE IT!!!

I am not getting it. If DL artificially restricted capacity so that they could charge more...why are they pulling out because of unprofitability? That theory does not make any sense....
 
abrelosojos
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:05 am

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
Delta ran off singing merrily with loads in excess of 90%, dumping passengers some one else wrote, so many who would have preferred the nonstop COULD NOT USE IT!!!

= I am a little confused again. Remind me again why DL restricted capacity with 90% loads and still could not generate a profit?

Saludos,
Alex
Live, and let live.
 
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yellowtail
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:52 am

There is more to this route axing than loads....

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 27):
Quoting guyanam (Reply 26):
Delta had a deliberate strategy of underserving the JFK GEO market, which meant that even in low periods their flights were full.

Please explain what in the hell you mean.

Yes, please explain.....i can't seem to wrap my head around the logic.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
So everyone hates BW, but DL didn't add enough seats, DL had 'rudimentary' inflight service, and they all flew BW anyway in spite of their whinging and moaning, and now they're left with nothing but BW, which they hate. Passengers get what they pay for, so enjoy BW!

Yep, BW will surely put up the fares now....so the Guyanese public are back to square one.


and CM is nowhere in sight....and won't be for awhile.
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
sq_ek_freak
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:16 am

Pardon the ignorance, but is this a route a JetBlue A320 can do, and do it profitably? Is it something that JetBlue would look into or is Georgetown too far south?

Also another random question, would UA fly it out of EWR? Would the NYC Guyanese population schlep over to EWR to fly a nonstop service that isn't BW?

Finally, how about AA? Least likely given cost base I'd assume, but given their rather extensive South America (albeit mostly deep South America) network would they want a whirl?

Just wondering if there were any viable options to replace Delta's presence on the route.
Keep Discovering
 
NASBWI
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:38 am

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 34):
Pardon the ignorance, but is this a route a JetBlue A320 can do, and do it profitably? Is it something that JetBlue would look into or is Georgetown too far south?

Mileage-wise, JFK-GEO is within B6's range capabilities (albeit a bit of a stretch). With added cargo, it might not be feasible without a penalty. Given B6's success against BW (KIN, MBJ, and BGI) from multiple markets (JFK, MCO, FLL), I'm more surprised that they haven't announced any intention to serve POS from JFK - in my opinion, a huge market still unserved by B6's Caribbean expansion. Perhaps when the NEO's come online, B6 may consider destinations further south in order to accomodate both pax and cargo without a weight penalty.
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yellowtail
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:14 am

GEO is just barely outside the range of a 320 from JFK once you allow for holding at JFK etc. route will have to wait for the NEO
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:26 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
CAL knew perfectly well that Ezjet would have brought in more nonstop seats and so their passengers would have galloped over to them So they IMMEDIATELY matched this with even MORE liberal baggage rules and INTRODUCED nonstops even though it meant have to use a wetleased plane.

This is just insane. EZjet lasted, what, a blink of an eye? Maybe two?

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 29):
You do realize that BWIA is still subsidized and does unfair competition.

I just assume everything in/around the Caribbean is cozy with their respective governments

Quoting guyanam (Reply 30):
You leave JFK at 1 AM, Arrive at POS at 6AM. Must wait on the plane. as you are not allowed to disembark, until 7:30AM departure with an arrival in GEO one hour later. Because the crews are changing and the plane is being cleaned you are offered NO SERVICE during this period @ POS. And you are not allowed to disembark while intransit to purchase coffee, juice or what ever either

Wow that sounds so awful that 75+% of the Guyanese market continue to use it, despite DL's nonstop and whatever ponzi scheme EZjet could throw together.  
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
guyanam
Posts: 1991
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):

You make points scoffing at mine without offering any of your own.

Interested in hearing from you about why CAL introduced nonstops as soon as Ezjet entered the market, even though mnay were begging them to do so for YEARS (scrfoll thru oldCaribbean threads on this topic). Interested in hearing from you about why CAL was willing to lose money through wet leases and a 20-30% REDUCTIOn in airfares if they were not threatened.

CALs overall market share into GEO was 60% in 2012, ON ALL ROUTES. This as reported by the airport authorities in GEO. Redjet collapsed early in 2012 and Ezjet entered, carrying more passengers than you might think, though not enough to sustain its self at the very low fares that it charged. This simply because CAL ran them down and chewed them up like an aggressive bear mom defending her kids.. GEO being a vital market for them. And this is what a company will do if threatened.

Clearly then CALs share on the JFK route in 2012 would have been less than 60%. This being the only one other than BGI, (competes with LIAT) and MIA (competes with PY), that it has competition. Given that CAL has 100% market share to YYZ and POS, hugely important markets on its GEO operations, yet only had 60% overall suggests that CAL was no where near 75% on its JFK GEO. It might be there now with EZjets demise. I( can well imagine that with its new nonstops many DL passengers have now gone to CAL with its lower fares and better baggage allowance.

Some suggested that before Ezjet their share was 55%, as they gradually over took DL on the route. Others who post here have said that DL has made money on its GEO and was not the slightest bothered by CAL taking over market share, as yield and not martket dominance was their goal. If those people wish to enagge you than they can.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 34):

The only viable options to replace DL...and there will be political pressure for the Guyana govt to either win back DL, or get a replacement...will be PY or B6. Neither are ready.

B6 and PY will need new planes with longer range.. UA is off as Guyanese live mainly in Brooklyn and Queens and the NJ community is not large enough to sustain it. Note that UA only does 1X to POS which is a larger and more diverse market ex JFK than is GEO (more business traffic). Now with CAL running nonstops there is no need to trek to EWR.

AA is retrenching its Caribbean routes ex JFK so I doubt will be interested, though one does not know. Maybe BW, with its fuel subsidy and willngess to take advantage of it, will be a too formidable competitor for AA, though the more nimble B6 should hold its own as it is on its Jamaican routes.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:43 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 38):
You make points scoffing at mine without offering any of your own.

You make zero sense. You say everyone hates BW but clearly everyone flies them. You say DL didn't serve the market adequately but they were running very high loads. You say EZjet was taking the market by storm but EZjet has more in common with Baltia. I get that you hate BW, but it's your only option if you want to fly to JFK. If you don't like flying them then start your own airline from GEO.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 38):
Interested in hearing from you about why CAL introduced nonstops as soon as Ezjet entered the market,
Quoting guyanam (Reply 38):
Some suggested that before Ezjet their share was 55%,

EZjet is a non factor. It doesn't show up in the schedule data, a google search provides comedic fodder, and the market share data shows they were barely there. BW knows that it owns the NYCGEO market, so a nonstop is not far fetched given permission on the Guyanese side. Perhaps the threat of a nonstop spurred BW into action, but nonstop or not, BW has continued to own the market.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
cokepopper
Posts: 392
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:01 pm

Slow to confirm

"Delta Airlines has not made an official announcement with regard to the Guyana/JFK route… we have not confirmed any flights as of May of 2013, Sara Lora, Manager of Communications for Latin America "

http://www.stabroeknews.com/2013/new...delta-still-to-make-exit-official/
 
guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:33 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 39):

Do you know any Guyanese by the way? Your remarks tell me that you dont as horror stories by Guyanese intransit at POS can fill volumes and the thing is even many BWIA/CAL cabin crews and NY based sales staff will sympathize with them. Do yourself a favor and look through Guyanese papers to see for yourself.

Why do you think that CALrushed to do JFK nonstops? These being their biggest markets on the GEO, other than POS? Even being forced to WET LEASE aircraft in order to do so, instead of waiting until their 767s came on stream. Its still just US and Canada based Guyanese who fly these routes, nothing new. So why these sudden moves by CAL?

This after Guyanese have been begging them to do this for YEARS and indeed they had the rights to do JFK nonstop for a few years now.Enter EZjet and suddenly nonstops!!!!

Do you not think it odd that just when Ezjet enters CAL makes this move? Yes a little no name charter airline at that!!! Just goes to show what EXCESS capacity on nonstop service JFK GEO could force an airline, which (together with its predeccessor BWIA, has been serving GEO for over 60 years.

Respond to this fact and not pretending as if EZ was not a major destablizing event last year causing the two major carriers to take steps which cost them $$ as they sought to protect their market. I told you what they did several times and you have chosen to scoff at this w/o offering alternate evidence. Instead mounting an emotional response based on your thought that I "hate" BW.

By the way were you knowledgable of Caribbean aviation you would know that sizeable numbers of older passengers especially, b ut not exclusively ,do not book online, but use travel agents. This being especially so in the IndoCaribeban communities of Queens where many remain loyal to their travel agents, The travel agents book the cheapest seats and this is the segment that Ezjet catered to. Indeed by booking bulk seats often negotiating lower fares than some one booking on their own could do.

If you do not know the name Travelspan then you know nothing about this topic.

[Edited 2013-02-14 15:49:00]
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
Do you know any Guyanese by the way?

Not a one.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
Your remarks tell me that you dont as horror stories by Guyanese intransit at POS can fill volumes and the thing is even many BWIA/CAL cabin crews and NY based sales staff will sympathize with them

And yet they all almost exclusively fly BW.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
If you do not know the name Travelspan then you know nothing about this topic.

Yep, and you'll never guess who they'd put me on when I tried booking JFKGEO.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 41):
Do you not think it odd that just when Ezjet enters CAL makes this move?

And yet all those Guyanese are flying that awful heinous carrier BW. Did EZ even get off the ground?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JA
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 pm

From the horse's mouth: http://www.demerarawaves.com/index.p...-performanceq-guyana-us-route.html

Delta Air Lines will close its station in Georgetown, Guyana discontinuing flights between the John F. Kennedy International Airport and the Cheddi Jagan International Airport, effective May 6th, 2013 due to poor performance of the route.
 
guyanam
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):

I did note that you do not know any Guyanese. Maybe you ought to let those who know about Guyana talk about it.

In fact BW had 2 flights daily with a total of 2,150 seats. Given that the flights stopped in POS, given that more people travel JFK POS than JFK GEO, we can assume that at least 50% of the passengers on these flights got off in POS...and I suspect its more than that. Delta was always FULL wth approx 750 seats.

BW 425 and the 525 probebly arrived in GEO with loads in the 60-70% range (outside of the peak periods), which also included passengers boarding in POS, with the 525 also bringing in passengers connecting from FLL and a few from YYZ. There is ample travel between POS and GEO.

So it is mathematically impossible for CAL to have had almost all the route when it only offered a stop in POS.

Now that they offer nonstops and have driven off Ezjet I can well believe that their share on the JFK GEO route is in the region of 70%. This because DL no longer has a monopoly on the nonstops, and charges more than BW, has stricter baggage policies and so many of their former passengers fled.

If BW had virtually all the market prior to last year DL would have canceled its service long ago a sGEO has expensive fuel and is a significant point for drug smuggling into the USA, increasing security costs for carriers on that route. But when DL was the only nonstop they stayed on, doing quite well in fact...they dropped their JFK POS, cut back ther JFK ANU and their JFK GND, but kept their JFK GEO.

BW now has the best of both worlds A cheaper flight (with 2 free bags) and a nonsop flight.
 
JA
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:12 pm

That begs the question: is more capacity really needed?
 
caribbean484
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 42):
Quoting JA (Reply 43):
Quoting JA (Reply 45):

Before this conversation goes any further, it should be noted that last year according to the DOT CAL in a three way fight had the largest market-share of all carriers at 63%. This data includes all direct flights and nonstop flights in and out of GEO. This data is for the 7 months ending July and a load factor of 74%.
In 2011 CAL had a market share of 61% of the market out of GEO with a load factor of 85%.

As mentioned in the article DL saw a decline in pax for the last 18 months and a reduction in fares over the same period, making their flights unsustainable. So in the instance CAL and EZjet going at it has done irreparable damage to DL, who charges the higher fares out of the market.
Looking at the Easter periods coming up already most of CAL's seats in and out of GEO are already sold out long before DL's and they have significantly more seats available on the market.
All ah we is one family
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting caribbean484 (Reply 46):
CAL in a three way fight had the largest market-share of all carriers at 63%. This data includes all direct flights and nonstop flights in and out of GEO. This data is for the 7 months ending July and a load factor of 74%.
In 2011 CAL had a market share of 61% of the market out of GEO with a load factor of 85%.

Clearly Guyanese are avoiding the hated carrier like the plague. Oh wait... 
Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
Maybe you ought to let those who know about Guyana talk about it.

You are just missing the plain obvious truth that given multiple choices, most Guyanese choose BW to NYC, even choosing a stop in POS over DL. That is straight from the data, regardless of whether I know anyone in Guyana. Forget whether I'm acquainted with anyone from Guyana, and acquaint yourself with the actual data.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
So it is mathematically impossible for CAL to have had almost all the route when it only offered a stop in POS.

It is possible, and all the data show that BW has carried 60-70+% of the market since around 2008.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
Now that they offer nonstops and have driven off Ezjet

EZjet drove itself out of business. As far as I can tell the only passengers EZjet ever had are the stranded ones who may still be stranded.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 44):
so many of their former passengers fled.

...to BW which you say they hate, and down the rabbit hole we go again 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JA
Posts: 208
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:40 pm

Did the DOT stats include EZjet? Public charters are not required to report per se.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL JFK-GEO Gets The Axe

Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:45 am

Quoting JA (Reply 48):
Did the DOT stats include EZjet? Public charters are not required to report per se.

I'm pretty sure public charters show up in a lot of different data sources; private charters do not.
E pur si muove -Galileo