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CrimsonNL
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KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:31 am

Link (Dutch only) http://nos.nl/artikel/473541-ook-bij-klm-betalen-voor-je-koffer.html

Roughly translated;

KLM will start charging 15 euros for checked baggage on flights within Europe. KLM says that 60-70% of the passengers on European flights fly with hand baggage only, and they plan to reduce ticket fares on inter-Europe flights. Flying Blue members [the required level is not mentioned] won't have to pay for bags.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I personally don't really care for this measure as I never travel with bags on KLM within Europe. I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

Your thoughts?

Martijn
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:37 am

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

Why? All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage. Furthermore flying blue members are exempted and (initially) it is only charged on european flights. Smart move in my opinion.
 
JU068
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:51 am

Could we see Air France doing the same?
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:04 pm

The logic behind the argument is quite laughable really "only about 1/3 of our European passengers check bags in, so we will introduce a charge"
By their own admission the charge will only apply to a smallish percentage of their passengers, a percentage that will then decline as some of the ones that are presently checking in bags will stop doing so. Meanwhile, as a carrier whose short haul network to an extent feeds long haul, they can't stop handling bags, and they have stated that their frequent fliers will be exempt.
They will within a short time see less bags being paid for, but very little reduction in costs, whilst giving the impression of heading down the LCC route.
 
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Polot
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:08 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?

Its only a matter of time, along with the other major European airlines.
 
JU068
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:29 pm

So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

I could see this working for the point to point passengers only.
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:02 pm

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 1):
All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage.

Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

Martijn
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:10 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

I will only be a matter of time before other European legacies will follow..
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:10 pm

Disappointing news, although I've yet to see anything from KLM themselves. When will this be implemented from?


Dan  
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okay
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:23 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):

Indeed. I really hope KL won't start with this. KL so far has never let me down, such a great airline, but this is definitely a step towards LCC model. I would even somehow accept better BOB being introduced on KL (though preferably not!)
 
kl911
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:24 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 8):
When will this be implemented from?

April 22nd.
 
martinair50
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:29 pm

I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.
 
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting martinair50 (Reply 11):
I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.

Again:

- all intercontinental flights are exempted (when you need check in luggage the most)
- all flying blue members are exempted (all frequent KLM flyers)
- charge is only a mere 15 euros (which can be booked directly online)

Really, I can't see what all the fuzz is about... Just thinka bout it; it is now considered 'normal' for example that no hot meals are served by legacies on european flights in economy class. Just as it will be normal that the lowest bookable fares do not include checked luggage in the future. And yes I do think almost all legacies will follow suit.
 
avek00
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:39 pm

This move was inevitable, and indeed overdue for the European market.
Live life to the fullest.
 
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:41 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
Yes but the European public will only associate pay-for-bags with LCC's, not with an airline like KLM!

People here said the exact same thing when American carriers (I think US was the first, but maybe it was AA) started charging for bags on domestic flights.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 10):
April 22nd.

Thanks, I plan on flying them in March, so at least I will travel before this.


Dan  
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:55 pm

I want to see a KL statement about this as the press frequently misinterprets these things. I could imagine them introducing a new low-cost fare segment like AF is doing with the "prix mini", that does not include baggage, FF miles, and other perks. In that case, fine. But I don't [want to] imagine them introducing a general baggage fee.

KL and AMS live on connections. Connections must be exempt from the fee or this will surely hurt them.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?

As said, they already are, but not (yet) on all routes and only as additional fare option - you can always still book the current "classic" fare which includes all usual frills.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 5):
So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

I could see this working for the point to point passengers only.

  
 
airbazar
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:56 pm

I think this is a bad idea for European legagy carriers but KLM is already the "No frills" carrier of the AF/KLM group so it may work for them. I'll give my reasons why I think it is a bad idea.

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 1):
Why? All legacies in US are already charging for check in luggage.

The US is a completely different market. For staters, the car or train are not an altrnative in the US due to the long distances and lack of HSR, thus giving passengers no option to walk away. Secondly, the US carriers are predominantly domestic carriers. By charging for checked luggage the idea is that pax will check less luggage and the airline will save on fuel and labor costs. KLM and the rest of the legacy carriers are predominantly long haul, intercontinental carriers subject to competition from foreign carriers that will never charge you for checked bags. Thirdly, Europeans are different. They take a lot longer trips where traveling with only a carry-on is not really viable. Compare that to the US where the average vacation is 3 days.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
They will within a short time see less bags being paid for, but very little reduction in costs, whilst giving the impression of heading down the LCC route.

  
If this won't lead to cutting costs, then what's the point?
 
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:04 pm

I am guessing short haul passengers connecting to long haul flights will also be exempted?
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:06 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
The US is a completely different market. For staters, the car or train are not an altrnative in the US due to the long distances and lack of HSR, thus giving passengers no option to walk away.

If an extra 15 euros deters people from flying then KLM was probably selling them junk fares to begin with that made the airline no money.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
KLM and the rest of the legacy carriers are predominantly long haul, intercontinental carriers subject to competition from foreign carriers that will never charge you for checked bags.

Just like with American carriers, this fee doesn't apply towards intercontinental flights.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
Thirdly, Europeans are different. They take a lot longer trips where traveling with only a carry-on is not really viable. Compare that to the US where the average vacation is 3 days.

Well if they are flying intercontinental then the fees don't apply. If they are flying for a European vacation then they have to tough it out and pay the fees just like Americans do. Europeans are not that different.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
If this won't lead to cutting costs, then what's the point?

It extracts a little revenue out of the 30-40% of passengers who do fly European short haul flights with checked luggage.
 
ThomasCook
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
and they plan to reduce ticket fares on inter-Europe flights.

They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced? I personally haven't. It makes me laugh! Is this in context anyway? Does this figure of 1/3 of paxs checking bags include all those feeding onto KLMs long haul network? Or is it simply 1/3 of pax travelling only within Europe?

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MaverickM11
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:30 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
The US is a completely different market.

No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
People here said the exact same thing when American carriers (I think US was the first, but maybe it was AA) started charging for bags on domestic flights.

  

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced?

Maybe for an hour? Honestly I don't know why they'd say this, as they'll match their competition and they don't really have much say in how high or low fares are.
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
Maybe for an hour? Honestly I don't know why they'd say this, as they'll match their competition and they don't really have much say in how high or low fares are.

It's just PR to make their customers feel better about this decision; they are not going to track the fares to see if KLM actually lowers them. Other than that the statement is meaningless BS.
 
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting ThomasCook (Reply 20):
They all say this but in reality, do we ever see fares reduced? I personally haven't. It makes me laugh!

Really? I am seeing 99 euro return fares bookable on most European flights offered by KLM. Which was absolutely not possible a few years ago. So yes prices have decreased already to a level that it is sometimes cheaper to fly KLM than for example Easyjet ex Amsterdam.
 
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 23):
Really? I am seeing 99 euro return fares bookable on most European flights offered by KLM. Which was absolutely not possible a few years ago. So yes prices have decreased already to a level that it is sometimes cheaper to fly KLM than for example Easyjet ex Amsterdam.

You are apparently seeing more than me then.
Or are you strictly talking about flights ex /toAMS?
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PH-BFA
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:55 pm

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 24):
Or are you strictly talking about flights ex /toAMS?

Yes exactly. European return tickets from Amsterdam
 
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:05 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) :

- Air has High Speed Rail and Car competition, America only has bus
- Ultra Low-Cost airlines are common in Europe, non in the US
- Total trop distances are far shorter in Europe than in the US
- Competition is fierce in Europe, not so much (anymore) in the US

Is it a sign that the European air market is less mature? Maybe in terms of consolidations but that doesn't explain everything.

Back to the topic: Good move from KL, not as if they were facing huge competition with a far superior product from AMS! Their main competitors are Easyjet and Transavia after all!
 
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 26):
Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) :

- Air has High Speed Rail and Car competition, America only has bus

Umm I think there are a few cars in America, aren't there?

In the case of AMS, you will likely take a train to Brussels, Paris or Frankfurt (and whatever is in between.. and yes, that is already a lot!)... but still London, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Scandinavia, Southern France, Eastern/Southern Germany... that is all plane... or car or bus.
 
toltommy
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting ju068 (Reply 5):
So does that mean that connecting passengers will also have to pay for the luggage? If so then this move is a very stupid one and they will lose a lot of customers to Lufthansa, British Airways and others.

The others will follow. Continental tried holding out when other US carriers implemented the fees. The expected bump in traffic never occured and they followed the rest of the US legacies after a short period. When you see how much revenue these fees produce, it's almost crazy not to impose them, since the travelling public has accepted them. Even the folks at Southwest can't bring themselves to simply remove the fees at AirTran. One could make the case that the bag fees at AirTran are actually paying for the acquisition.
 
jc2354
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:42 pm

I think that all the European legacies have wanted to add these charges, but nobody wanted to be the first. It's just a matter of time until more and more of the legacies implement these charges.
If not now, then when?
 
SASMD82
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:52 pm

Isn't it much more feasible to check weight and size of hand luggage to avoid problems in cabin? In stead of punishing people who check in luggage? A typical Dutch attitude will become reality now I think -> to save money. The way to do now it to squeeze as much as luggage as possible in their hand luggage trolley now.

But if KL prefers the money over congested overhead bins....
 
MaverickM11
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:00 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 30):
A typical Dutch attitude will become reality now I think -> to save money. The way to do now it to squeeze as much as luggage as possible in their hand luggage trolley now.

That is what has happened everywhere else, so yes

Quoting toltommy (Reply 28):
Even the folks at Southwest can't bring themselves to simply remove the fees at AirTran

Their IT can't handle bag fees. But it's so great! Just not for FL
Quoting Vinniewinnie (Reply 26):
Untrue for several very good reasons (on top of my head) :

They really aren't any different; the environment may be different, but ultimately the passengers are willing to pay for the same exact things, no matter where on earth they are.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
kevin752
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:19 pm

Honestly, I don't see how this makes them look like they are going down the road to being a LCC. By saying that must mean that all the legacy carries in the USA and Canada are not legacy but LCC's. Which is not true. I am surprised that the major Euro carries waited this long to adopt these new policies since most North American carries charge for bags. People want lower fares so they can fly places which is great but then lower fares mean moving to a a la cart ticket pricing. Being from the US and working for an airline this does not strike me as odd or surprising. But then again we have been paying for bags for years and years here.
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airbazar
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
If an extra 15 euros deters people from flying then KLM was probably selling them junk fares to begin with that made the airline no money.
Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
Well if they are flying intercontinental then the fees don't apply. If they are flying for a European vacation then they have to tough it out and pay the fees just like Americans do. Europeans are not that different.

Or they can fly with someone else.

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
It extracts a little revenue out of the 30-40% of passengers who do fly European short haul flights with checked luggage.

Not if they'll lose the customer to another airline.

Quoting Polot (Reply 19):
Just like with American carriers, this fee doesn't apply towards intercontinental flights.

You missed the point of my entire post, completely. The point of charging for checked luggage is to lower costs and make some money off of those who have no choice but to pay for it. In Europe most travelers have other options. However with the majority of pax being intercontinental connections the airline won't save on costs and the revenue is likely to be negligible. That's why no other full service European carrier has dared charge for 1st bag.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

Name one European or Asian full service carrier that charges for 1st checked bad.
The market is different and the consumer is different.
 
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Polot
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
Or they can fly with someone else.

Assuming other Euro airlines don't follow.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
Not if they'll lose the customer to another airline.

Assuming other Euro airlines don't follow.

I'm sure LH/IAG and others will be watching KLM closely, and if there is no major negative effect (which, lets be honest, there won't be) and implement there own similar system.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
You missed the point of my entire post, completely. The point of charging for checked luggage is to lower costs and make some money off of those who have no choice but to pay for it. In Europe most travelers have other options. However with the majority of pax being intercontinental connections the airline won't save on costs and the revenue is likely to be negligible. That's why no other full service European carrier has dared charge for 1st bag.

Negligible revenue is better than none at all. The reason Euro carriers haven't decided to charge is quite simple. Up into recently they were very profitable. Now, however, the Euro economy is struggling, the US carriers are much leaner and more competitive (costs wise) across the Atlantic while they are facing ever increasing competition from the East. That has put negative pressure on their bottom line, so you are now starting to see them address their cost issues. One part of that is baggage fees, others are pay and benefits cuts (see BA and what is happening with IB now).

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
The market is different and the consumer is different.

The market is different. The consumer? not so much. Lets not forget where ULCCs come from (hint: not the US) and who some of the fastest growing airlines in Asia currently are 
 
MaverickM11
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):

Name one European or Asian full service carrier that charges for 1st checked bad.
The market is different and the consumer is different.

The US also has 2-3+ decades head start on deregulation; EU/Asian carriers are following in the same tracks US carriers blazed years ago--just give it time. The consumer is identical the world over.

Quoting Polot (Reply 34):
I'm sure LH/IAG and others will be watching KLM closely, and if there is no major negative effect (which, lets be honest, there won't be) and implement there own similar system.

  

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):

Not if they'll lose the customer to another airline.

If you're flying out of AMS and want to fly nonstop, your options are limited, and a lot of them charge for bags already.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
JU068
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:15 pm

It is also important to know how much they will charge for the luggage. If they charge too much for it then it might produce a negative effect among the travelling public.
I still find it stupid for them to charge connecting passengers within Europe but... anyway.
 
avek00
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 29):

I think that all the European legacies have wanted to add these charges, but nobody wanted to be the first. It's just a matter of time until more and more of the legacies implement these charges.

Exactly. You think the other Euro legacies are going to miss out on solid PER DAY 500,000-1,000,000 Euro/GBP boost to the revenue stream by holding out on bag fees as soon as the marketplace demonstrates that it will accept them?
Live life to the fullest.
 
airbazar
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 34):
The market is different. The consumer? not so much. Lets not forget where ULCCs come from (hint: not the US) and who some of the fastest growing airlines in Asia currently are

A No Frills carrier, often confused with a LCC, and Full Service carrier cater to different consumers. In the US they cater to the same consumer. That's the difference. The LCC in Europe and Asia have created their own market which did not exist previously.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
The US also has 2-3+ decades head start on deregulation; EU/Asian carriers are following in the same tracks US carriers blazed years ago--just give it time. The consumer is identical the world over.

To some extent yes but they will have their own form of evolution and it won't be like in the US. That's mainly because of geography, politics, and HSR, all 3 are significantly different than in the US.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
I do think it may harm their reputation as a legacy carrier or full-service carrier by imposing charges like this.

It sure will, but only until others follow. AF is a logical #2 to be expected, and I can't see IB, BA, LH and others resisting very long if this works for KL.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 2):
Could we see Air France doing the same?


Yes, at least through its LCC subsidiary Hop! that will be starting in April.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 17):
By charging for checked luggage the idea is that pax will check less luggage and the airline will save on fuel and labor costs.

Maybe that was the expected effect. In reality, it means race to the boarding process among pax, full overhead cabin storage space delaying boarding, and commonly, last minute bag check at the gate, which costs time and money to the airlines.
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KaiTak747
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting martinair50 (Reply 11):

I had not expected KLM to go this far with cutting costs and I must say I am quite disappointed in them. I think legacy carriers (or even flag carriers) like KLM should be full service airlines who include some hold baggage.

I agree, the reason why, for example, I like to fly BA over EZ is that it is a 'full service' experience. You pay a little more, but you are in a more comfortable seat, get a free drink and snack and a free checked bag. If BA were to start behaving like a low cost airline, there will be no benefit with flying with them over the low cost competition.

Most people do not fly very often, and don't mind paying more for a little better service. This is why people don't just fly with EZ and Ryanair and instead fly with legacies.

I can't see this being a big earner for KL and will harm their brand.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 21):
No, it is identical, hence why all the EU and Asian carriers are trying the same exact things that US carriers have been doing for years.

No it isn't, unlike the US, Europe is not a country. On average people do not fly as often and for different reasons.
 
martinair50
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting PH-BFA (Reply 12):


Really, I can't see what all the fuzz is about... Just thinka bout it; it is now considered 'normal' for example that no hot meals are served by legacies on european flights in economy class. Just as it will be normal that the lowest bookable fares do not include checked luggage in the future. And yes I do think almost all legacies will follow suit.

In my opinion the fuss is just about the concept of having to pay for your bags on the Dutch flag carrier, not taking in account the price of the fee or excluding passengers: In the Neth, I think that everyone just expects all fees to be included, the only exception being low-cost carriers. Now that not only low-costs are charging but also KL starts needs some very much getting used to. That's not that strange right?

[Edited 2013-02-13 10:38:21]
 
RussianJet
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:50 pm

If it really reduces fares then it shouldn't matter much, but I'm highly sceptical of this claim.
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okay
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:56 pm

I do not know how it is in America, and when traveling intra-Europe, I do not care what American carriers do. I have taken KL a few times down to BCN from ARN. I could have chosen Ryanair or Norwegian, but went for KL as they offer(ed) free bag allowance.

SK even advertises that 23kg is included in the ticket price. I would say this is one of the things that has, before, at least separated LCC from old school airlines in Europe.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 40):

No it isn't, unlike the US, Europe is not a country. On average people do not fly as often and for different reasons.

None of these really matter in the big picture. Sure there are differences between the EU and US in the same way there are differences between US' hub in DCA versus their hub in PHX, but ultimately, the allocation of resources, costs, and passenger choices are going to create the same issues everywhere.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 38):
That's mainly because of geography, politics, and HSR, all 3 are significantly different than in the US.

I'd say the only difference that is meaningful is politics: whereas CO/UA or DL/NW could merge and really leverage their networks and economies of scale while reducing costs, AF/KL, BA/IB, and LH and all its minions have really just created bigger messes that politics will forever block from truly consolidating. But again, the pressures to do so will still be there, and be just as strong. Something is going to have to give.

Quoting okAY (Reply 43):
SK even advertises that 23kg is included in the ticket price.

SK is perpetually on the brink of implosion.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
padster
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:30 pm

Well as a Lifetime Platinum elite member with Flying Blue I am angered with these changes ..

Even at my local Airport the Low Cost carrier Jet 2 offers 1 free bag !

This is an insane concept as now the main 3 partners of Skyteam have radically different baggage concepts ..

DL 1 bag +1 for elite plus
AF 0 bag on mini fares +1 for elite plus
KL 1 bag with any FB card ..

so on KL i predict the overhead luggage bins will be crammed to bursting and gate agents will have a hell of a time in policing this ...


yet again KLM / AF demonstrate short sightedness in their approach .      
 
crosswinds21
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:39 pm

I think that this is a very interesting move. Is it a positive one? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. I'm not sure yet. I think that it's obvious that generally speaking, legacy carriers need to adopt the LCC model as much as is reasonably possible on short haul routes in order to not bleed too much cash. However, the problem is that right now, for the leisure type traveller (the type that these baggage fees are targetting), KLM is already hard enough to fly on as is. At least to/from AMS, their fares are not low like they are on LCCs (yes, they do have the 99 Euro round trip fares, but those are not easy to find) and the frequent flyer programme is terrible in terms of awarding miles and costs for redemption. It's also interesting that KLM apparently chooses not to compete against LCCs in terms of offering one way fares. At least from the places that I've flown to, KLM has no discounted one way fares. Period. For example, if you want to fly AMS-TXL one way, you will pay around 400-500 Euros.

So yes, it's true that KLM in many ways is a full service carrier, but when you consider all of the above and also consider the fares that they charge now, coupled with the terrible Flying Blue programme, this already makes them relatively unattractive to fly on. Many people I know here want to fly KLM when possible, but often wind up not doing so simply because it almost always turns out to be uneconomical. So with the addition of the baggage fees, it seems like the choice in favour of LCCs will be become even clearer. Now, it's true that if other legacies match this new fee, that will be good for KLM. However, if they're trying to better compete with LCCs - and not the legacies - then I don't see how they're helping themselves here.
 
AndyEastMids
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:42 pm

Sadly, another legacy airline that's lost the plot with respect to what it means to be a "proper airline" offering a full-service, versus being a LCC - and to be recognised as such by their customers. Why don't the morons that run these airlines realise that in removing their differentiation from the LCCs, they lower the justification in the passenger's mind for travelling with a full service airline versus a LCC?
 
triyuc
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:44 pm

i think klm is going to lose their passenger
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vv701
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RE: KLM Starts Charging For Checked Bags Within Europe

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
The US also has 2-3+ decades head start on deregulation;

Deregulation effectively started in the USA on 23 October 1978 when the Airline Deregulation Act was signed by President Carter.

It started in Europe just over nine years later on 1 January 1988. The EU introduced deregulation in three stages. The first stage was completed in 1992. Stage three was completed in 1997. However the rapid expansion of FR, arguably the main beneficiary of EU airline deregulation, dates back to1992 when this Irish airline established a large operational base in the UK at STN. This is illustrative of the additional challenge on the east side of the North Atlantic as here deregulation was not national as in the USA but international.