http://www.airporthaber.com/havacili...ri/ucak-seferleri-artirilmali.html (Turkish only)

News of TK to go double daily to BOM and DEL in the near future and start other Indian destinations.
Announced by the Turkish Foreign office in New Delhi. Could anyone else confirm this?

Will be interesting to see how well TK does with travel to the Indian sub-continent. Especially, when you have major players such as EK and QR being the choice of travelers. EY is also working its way up the ranks.

TK has been flying daily to both cities (332/333) for some time. It is just about bilaterals to get more slots. TK might have to lease more WB if this goes through until owned frames (2 x 333) start to arrive later this year.

If this materializes i bet it would be a midnight departure from IST (main departure bank for fareast) and a late afternoon arrival back to IST (minor arrival bank from fareast NRT and 2nd BKK flight).

IST-DEL 0:30 - 10:15
DEL-IST 13:40 - 17:35

Turkey for several years has been pushing India to widen the bilateral which currently limits Turkish side to mere 7-weekly frequencies. TK has been able to service both BOM/DEL daily on extra bilateral basis using the India side entitlement as well (by offering AI codeshare).

Last October the Indian side agreed to reopen the bilateral. The Turkish wish list was to be allowed to go double daily at BOM and DEL along with adding daily service to 5 other service points - Hyderabad, Amritsar, Kolkata, Bangalore and Chennai.

Sounds like there might have been some positive movement finally.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):

Thanks LAXintl,
That would be a huge increase.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 1): when you have major players such as EK and QR being the choice of travelers.

Yes it will be.

Currently TK arrives and departs (at BOM atleast) in the 4:00 AM - 5:30AM time period. This is a good time to arrive in order to connect to secondary destinations but not necessarily a great time for these passengers to connect outbound. Unless you have red-eyes arriving in to BOM from cities like HYD, AMD and the like. And the ME biggies already have direct services to some of these cities in India + multiple dailies in to BOM and DEL.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4): Hyderabad, Amritsar, Kolkata, Bangalore and Chennai.

Would these be served with B737-900 or could they fill an A330?

English translation below:

Ambassador to Turkey Burak Akçapar New Delhi, India to improve ties between Turkey and increase existing services announced new destinations organize expeditions. Currently, the capital cities of New Delhi and Mumbai daily flights to Istanbul Pointing out that this voyage Akçapar be issued in the coming months, and on top of that two-day voyage start at some of the other cities gave the good news. Indian Turkish Businessmen's Association (ITBA) and the Confederation of Industrialists of India (CII) organized by "Turkey and Commerce" Ambassador participated in the panel on Akçapar, Turkish Airlines and the state on the basis of the fulfillment of the responsibilities that needed doing, and now the Indian offices of initiatives, he said.

Ambassador Akçapar, the service is already running at full capacity by specifying emphasized that this is a great contribution trips to trade. Behind the current trade between India and Turkey ought to be 4.5 billion dollars last year, which was Akçapar Pointing out that the trade affront to the economy of the world's leading two, he added. Indian Turkish Businessmen's Association (ITBA) Vice President Mehmet Ali Sugar and his speech at a CII meeting, the secretary general of the TATA group vice president, Sanjay Singh, Essar group, India's leading conglomerates, such as dcpl representatives attended the meeting. (Today)

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 3): If this materializes i bet it would be a midnight departure from IST (main departure bank for fareast) and a late afternoon arrival back to IST (minor arrival bank from fareast NRT and 2nd BKK flight). IST-DEL 0:30 - 10:15 DEL-IST 13:40 - 17:35

Departure time from IST is fine but inbound arrival would likely be at 1700 so a 1255 dep DEL in order to ensure that it connects with the 1820 IST JFK service i.e. TK 11 as well as 1900-2000 EU departure hub wave bank. Note that a lunch time departure from DEL would be definitely preferred by VFR pax headed (as final destination) to JFK and Europe (mainland airport itself) versus taking an inconvenient 0400-0600 departing service of some of the Gulf carriers.

As far as ATQ, MAA, HYD and BLR are concerned for TK, ATQ will perform very badly from a P&L perspective due to very low yields and pure leisure Y class traffic. Yes S/F will be very high on an A332 but not yields. Out of these 4 routes, BLR has the best hope for attracting business class traffic due to TK's membership in Star, its good all round coverage of USA/Europe via a short transit in IST in both directions and its ability to offer many tier 2 and tier 3 cities in EU which no Gulf carrier can.

However if TK goes into HYD with a daily A330, I honestly believe that within a year of that happening, BA will pull the plug on its B767 operated LHR-HYD service !

Quoting indcwby (Reply 1): Will be interesting to see how well TK does with travel to the Indian sub-continent. Especially, when you have major players such as EK and QR being the choice of travelers. EY is also working its way up the ranks.

TK is already doing quite well. And unless all your travel is to India, TK offers more than the ME3. Star alliance privileges. Excellent onboard service. One of the most interesting hub cities in the world. And more options with premium economy.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 8): Departure time from IST is fine but inbound arrival would likely be at 1700 so a 1255 dep DEL in order to ensure that it connects with the 1820 IST JFK service i.e. TK 11 as well as 1900-2000 EU departure hub wave bank.

Thanks for further adjusting, haven't had JFK in mind... But a very good point.

Quoting VTORD (Reply 6):

If those new destinations will be added you can be sure that they will have approx the same schedule as the existing BOM and DEL routes to ensure connectivity to North America.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 8): I honestly believe that within a year of that happening, BA will pull the plug on its B767 operated LHR-HYD service

Why ? Aren't they servicing completely different markets ?

finally some good news from TK about other indian destinations  . Price wise, TK seems to be pretty good ex LAX to India.

Quoting VTORD (Reply 6): This is a good time to arrive in order to connect to secondary destinations

Indeed it is.

The one thing I keep thinking is the percentage of travelers switching from QR or EK to travel on TK.

Ex: Currently, I know a lot of South Indian travelers that take QR or EK from IAH > DOH/DXB to COK/TRV/CCJ.

Only 1 stopover.

When TK starts service in IAH, those same passengers would have to go IAH > IST > BOM/DEL > COK/TRV/CCJ.

An additional connection that many people would not want to endure, especially when you can get a widebody on EK from DXB to COK (B772), TRV (A332) or CCJ (Both types).

Quoting indcwby (Reply 13): An additional connection that many people would not want to endure, especially when you can get a widebody on EK from DXB to COK (B772), TRV (A332) or CCJ (Both types).

true, i see your point there. I guess TK will look to leverage their connection with AI for those stations.

Is there any other news coverage or official statement about what's coming?

it is true that TK currently and also in the near future can not compete with EK between India and the US-Canada; however, with time and new destinations (IAH to open up, LAX already daily, SFO in the pipeline...) the price might be the decisive factor. as we all know TK is quite good on that level and can also compete with EK. to be honest, most of the people don't really know the difference between 332 and 739. also, they don't have to know if the price and the times are right. widebody, skyinterior and all this is for us enthusiast, not for the one-time-a-year traveler.

The price should be right.

Unfortunately, EK has gotten ridiculously expensive from LAX. This summer, LH and SQ look like good deals to India, which I haven't seen in years. Even MH has come out of the woodwork with some insanely low fares; maybe they are planning one last hurrah to LAX before the full Oneworld partnership kicks in. Ironically, EK used to be great on fares. Reading the TK reports on here, looks like the product is great but the service needs to be worked on.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 13): Indeed it is. The one thing I keep thinking is the percentage of travelers switching from QR or EK to travel on TK. Ex: Currently, I know a lot of South Indian travelers that take QR or EK from IAH > DOH/DXB to COK/TRV/CCJ. Only 1 stopover. When TK starts service in IAH, those same passengers would have to go IAH > IST > BOM/DEL > COK/TRV/CCJ. An additional connection that many people would not want to endure, especially when you can get a widebody on EK from DXB to COK (B772), TRV (A332) or CCJ (Both types).

This applies to cities where EK has a nonstop to. To secondary european destinations, TK is in a mode advantageous position...

Double daily A330s DEL is easily do able and fill able with TK's vast USA and EU network. The market size from DEL to EU/USA is far larger than BOM. Plus remember TK also carries a lot of pax to North Africa from India especially to Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco etc. Double daily DEL may also result in 1-2 EU carriers suspending their own DEL services or forcing some to reduce which in turn will help TK and in the future EK too when they expand.

BOM too can survive with two A330 flights daily but it would struggle versus DEL unless TK gets ultra aggressive with its pricing strategy. Cargo though for both flights (DEL/BOM) would be FULL with double daily flights regardless !

Now if TK wants to get a bit creative and really operate double daily BOM flights, I would suggest that their BOM flight be extended to KTM-Kathmandu as the KTM-EU market size is big, higher yielding than EU-India + no EU carrier operates to KTM. IST-BOM-KTM is suggested because KTM on its own cannot support a daily A330 service but if operated via India, it can !

Quoting behramjee (Reply 19): Now if TK wants to get a bit creative and really operate double daily BOM flights, I would suggest that their BOM flight be extended to KTM-Kathmandu as the KTM-EU market size is big, higher yielding than EU-India + no EU carrier operates to KTM. IST-BOM-KTM is suggested because KTM on its own cannot support a daily A330 service but if operated via India, it can !

In this case, the new route would fall off the airline's schedule grid and connectivity would suffer.

Quoting Turkish350XWB (Reply 20): In this case, the new route would fall off the airline's schedule grid and connectivity would suffer.

Hmm...incorrect :P...see how I would time it below: (subject of course to obtaining slots at BOM airport during that night time which would be difficult)

Dep IST 0135 Arr BOM 1030+1...will connect 2200-2300 arrival inbound hub wave
Dep BOM 1200 Arr KTM 1450
Dep KTM 2155 Arr BOM 0020+1
Dep BOM 0145 Arr IST 0605

In this way KTM-BOM-IST is connected very well to both TK's 0730-0830 EU/North Africa departure hub wave bank + the all important 0725am IST-JFK service where as the current BOM-IST flight is connected very well to the 1200-1300 departure hub wave bank which is already an established service.

TK's current BOM flights are witnessing high S/F so this will help relieve the burden a little bit as well as provide very useful feed to the A333/B77W operated JFK services.

Quoting indcwby (Reply 13): especially when you can get a widebody on EK from DXB to COK (B772), TRV (A332) or CCJ

Wouldn't TK be better off targeting secondary destinations other than these 3? The COK/TRV/CCJ - DXB/DOH/AUH traffic is extremely strong for the ME3.
So maybe TK goes BLR, HYD and AMD in that order whom they can service passengers from the US west and east coasts?
Plus they are *A so may be they will be able to leverage that to get pax from IAH/ORD too?

Quoting behramjee (Reply 19): would suggest that their BOM flight be extended to KTM-Kathmandu as the KTM-EU market size is big

Interesting point. When I was working in DXB, I recall I had quite a few Nepalese co-workers who had a lot of friends and relatives in the EU and I mean a lot

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 16): all this is for us enthusiast, not for the one-time-a-year traveler.

  

KTM-Europe/USA market size in 2012 was as follows:

LHR 95,000
MAN 5,000
CDG 24,000
AMS 9,000
MUC 6,000
FRA 14,000
DME 6,000
FCO 5,000
MXP 10,000
ZRH 6,000
GVA 4,000
BRU 9,000
CPH 8,000
MAD 3,000
BCN 2,000
OSL 2,000
JFK 9,000
IAD 5,000
YYZ 4,000

They can also get traffic via IST to the Levant region (AMM BEY) + North Africa for which market sizes are as follows:

BEY 11,000
AMM 9,000

Once again I stress that Europe-KTM fares are approximately 30-35% higher yielding for Middle East carriers versus Europe-India !

Quoting VTORD (Reply 22): Wouldn't TK be better off targeting secondary destinations other than these 3? The COK/TRV/CCJ - DXB/DOH/AUH traffic is extremely strong for the ME3. So maybe TK goes BLR, HYD and AMD in that order whom they can service passengers from the US west and east coasts?

Again, unless they have some serious discounts on their fares for BLR, HYD and AMD, I don't see them putting a dent with EK/QR, who is already established.

For those who've traveled on TK, would someone like to say how they fare product-wise against the ME3?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4): Last October the Indian side agreed to reopen the bilateral. The Turkish wish list was to be allowed to go double daily at BOM and DEL along with adding daily service to 5 other service points - Hyderabad, Amritsar, Kolkata, Bangalore and Chennai. Sounds like there might have been some positive movement finally.

If the bilateral is updated, that will be quick growth for TK.

How is the gate situation at IST during the times of interest?

Lightsaber

Quoting indcwby (Reply 24): Again, unless they have some serious discounts on their fares for BLR, HYD and AMD, I don't see them putting a dent with EK/QR, who is already established. For those who've traveled on TK, would someone like to say how they fare product-wise against the ME3?

Last i checked, EK is running at about 1500-1600 roundtrip LAX-BLR for this summer. If TK can beat that, they are a shoo-in for people to switch. No QR at LAX and i dont know how many will take Saudia to India.

I think TK should have no issues with loads/ yields @ BLR, given the large *A feed here. LH might take a bit of a beating though - esp on the insane fares they manage to charge...

Quoting behramjee (Reply 8): However if TK goes into HYD with a daily A330, I honestly believe that within a year of that happening, BA will pull the plug on its B767 operated LHR-HYD service !

TK's service will mirror the middle east carriers, EK, EY and QR and is intended to compete with them and not BA. BA serves a different market (many cities in USA/Canada) plus a decent O & D to UK from HYD. So BAs service should not be affected much, but the middle east carriers would be affected more, especially, QR and EY.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 27): LH might take a bit of a beating though - esp on the insane fares they manage to charge...

If TK eats into LH's BLR pie, LH may have to fall back on MAA/HYD. Hope they will be able to sustain 748i with 100 premium seats to BLR.

Quoting hohd (Reply 28): TK's service will mirror the middle east carriers, EK, EY and QR and is intended to compete with them and not BA. BA serves a different market (many cities in USA/Canada) plus a decent O & D to UK from HYD. So BAs service should not be affected much, but the middle east carriers would be affected more, especially, QR and EY.

incorrect as EY and QR can fill up a daily A320/A321 to HYD easily with O&D traffic to their hub airport + transfer traffic to other GCC points + Saudi Arabia so TK launching HYD/MAA/BLR will not effect them one bit.

What TK will do to BA is hurt their yields and market share at the same time out of USA/CAN and Northern UK (MAN/BHX/LBA) area bound to HYD. Yes the nonstop pax especially J class will prefer BA's nonstop service any day of the week but we all know that if HYD was going ok, it would be a B772ER operated route and not a B763ER instead !

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 29): If TK eats into LH's BLR pie, LH may have to fall back on MAA/HYD. Hope they will be able to sustain 748i with 100 premium seats to BLR.

TK will not hurt LH in BLR as LH's main focus in BLR is corporate J/F class traffic for which they have a stronghold on. What TK will do in BLR is hurt Air France the most in particular more than any other airline as it is heavily dependent on transfer traffic to USA/EU on its BLR flights which are not operated daily year round. BA will not be effected by TK entering BLR that much as they have a monopoly on the BLR-LHR nonstop route which is quite popular with both premium and leisure paying pax + offers convenient one stop service via LHR to USA.

In MAA though, TK's entry will effect both LH and BA in Y class in particular as this market segment is more VFR oriented and price conscious versus BLR!

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 16): it is true that TK currently and also in the near future can not compete with EK between India and the US-Canada

It can on India - Canada. TK has more frequencies than EK does to YYZ. And a better product, as well as *A membership, in a *A stronghold.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 27): LH might take a bit of a beating though - esp on the insane fares they manage to charge...

I have actually found LH prices to be less than EK or BA/AF for an year or so, from BLR. Last year, I booked through LH for my India visit as it was the cheapest. Even now, I am finding that LH is cheaper than EK/BA/AF from BLR to SEA.

[Edited 2013-02-18 18:57:06]

Quoting blrsea (Reply 32): I hjave actually found LH prices to be less than EK or BA/AF for an year or so, from BLR. Last year, I booked through LH for my India visit as it was the cheapest. Even now, I am finding that LH is cheaper than EK/BA/AF from BLR to SEA.

I will second that. A 2 stop connection on LH (through UA as a star alliance partner) from LAX to BLR is quite reasonable for the summer actually. Even if you get the older product to Frankfurt, you can expierence the newest 747-8i to BLR.

I guess LH's fares far in advance might be decent. But my experience while booking travel with 2-3 weeks of planned travel dates - LH is far higher than the Gulf carriers. Interestingly enough - LH typically again offers the lowest fares on the last day or two before travel.

Quoting Nimish (Reply 34): I guess LH's fares far in advance might be decent. But my experience while booking travel with 2-3 weeks of planned travel dates - LH is far higher than the Gulf carriers. Interestingly enough - LH typically again offers the lowest fares on the last day or two before travel.

Oh thats true, i would agree with you on that. LH is typically higher short notice. Whenever coming back to the States from India i would look for LH but they tended to be quite pricey. I was on EK, MH, and Cathay all those years, but this time, i flew TG. I used to book at short notice as well.

Any further updates on this? Has TK gotten permission to launch other Indian cities?

The new A321NEO order should come in nicely to serve secondary markets in places like India with its 3200nm range.

I don't think TK will get as liberal bilaterals as the middle-east carriers got. India doesnt have that big of an economic relationship with Turkey. I think TK will probably get half or less of what it is hoping to get.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 38): I don't think TK will get as liberal bilaterals as the middle-east carriers got. India doesnt have that big of an economic relationship with Turkey. I think TK will probably get half or less of what it is hoping to get.

Yes, but Turkey is a country of 75mi people and - both geopolitically and economically - very important, and with very significant growth potential; Turkey should be as important a trade (and diplomatic) partner to India as India is to Turkey, so I would expect India to see this as a possibility for India to build its economic relationship with Turkey.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 39):

I am sure the fact that Turkish Airlines belongs to the same alliance as Air India could work in their favour. Their expansion within the Indian market does not have to be at the expense of the national carrier (as is the case with the Gulf airlines) but their expansion there could be synchronized with Air India, a win win situation.

EK's odds of getting good quality (ie corporate) front cabin traffic is not high as their narrow-body product on the IST-Europe routes have a far inferior product to the EKs who fly long-haul wide-bodies on both legs. Therefore unless there is unmet demand or a market not served by its competitors, the only way I see TK succeeding in gaining share from EK etc especially in the front is by offering lower fares.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 39): Yes, but Turkey is a country of 75mi people and - both geopolitically and economically - very important, and with very significant growth potential; Turkey should be as important a trade (and diplomatic) partner to India as India is to Turkey, so I would expect India to see this as a possibility for India to build its economic relationship with Turkey.

Too often Turkey hasn't been very accomodative of India's concerns on issues relating to central Asia, Afghanistan etc. And trade between the two hasn't been anything great to speak of. So I am not very optimistic about it.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 23): KTM-Europe/USA market size in 2012 was as follows:

Add almost 30000 from other destinations either served or rumored to be served by TK - These are 2011 numbers though.

LAX 8700
SFO 6900
BOS 6500
ORD 4200
IAH 3200

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 37): The new A321NEO order should come in nicely to serve secondary markets in places like India with its 3200nm range.

A321NEO is only good for IST-ATQ service and nothing else as this aircraft cannot be used on 6.5 hour flights to DEL and BOM due to the regional business class cabin on board which not a single Indian pax will appreciate for such a long flight. ATQ however is a different market segment altogether with next to zero premium pax hence this aircraft type is ideally suited for such a route.

A321NEO is also well suited for Istanbul-Goa but wont have the legs to operate it nonstop without incurring payload issues especially on Goa-IST sector.

For all of South India (HYD, BLR and MAA), TK has to use the A332/A333 only.

Besides the hard-product premium cabin disadvantage on the legs where TK uses / will use narrow-bodies, Turkish also has other soft disadvantages to overcome if it is to steal share from EK etc. Indians feel at home transiting Dubai, Abu Dhabi, etc due to the large number of Indians living and working there, including a large part of the airline frontline staff. On-board crew also have a high number of Indians. On-board IFE is heavily oriented towards Indians in multiple languages. This appeals to both premium and leisure / VFR pax.

So again only way for TK to gain share on overlapping O&D routes is by heavy discounting relative to EK and others to steal share. Will be hard to pull off and make money sustainably. Having said that, I will be happy to be proved wrong.

[Edited 2013-03-19 03:26:44]

Quoting sankaps (Reply 41): EK's odds of getting good quality (ie corporate) front cabin traffic is not high as their narrow-body product on the IST-Europe routes have a far inferior product to the EKs who fly long-haul wide-bodies on both legs

I agree with you about the current TK narrowbody business class being a much inferior product compared to EK's or other large airlines' business class.

However, in some of my recent flights in TK A321s, the business class seats were proper business seats. The planes were very new too. So, I think the new TK planes will have good business seats.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 45): Indians feel at home transiting Dubai, Abu Dhabi, etc due to the large number of Indians living and working there, including a large part of the airline frontline staff.

Not always true, Indians in Michigan are not interested in ME carriers. Wayne county airport authority(DTW) started a petition to EK/DL to start non-stop between DTW-DXB. DTW estimates 250 passengers daily travel between DTW and India. Even with Indian population close to 75,000 + Ohio + Windsor, that petition didn't even get required 5,000 signatures after 8 months. Got 3,500 votes.

That was a wrong petition anyway. EK needs to fill up at least a 777. 250 passengers will not work for EK. DL with SV in SkyTeam may never be interested in a DTW-DXB non-stop.

TK being an European carrier may have better luck with Indians in Michigan. TK will also attract 1+ Million ME population live in Michigan.

Quoting DTW2HYD (Reply 47): TK being an European carrier may have better luck with Indians in Michigan. TK will also attract 1+ Million ME population live in Michigan.

Let't not forget that TK can serve DTW with 333/332.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 44): due to the regional business class cabin on board which not a single Indian pax will appreciate for such a long flight.

The A321NEO will indeed be used to places like the Indian subcontinents. Part of the selection process was route analysis, and the A321NEO has a range advantage versus the 739MAX especially in analyzed TK configurations.

Also for cabin specifics, I guess you have not seen TK products lately. Both new A321 and 739 fleet have 2x2 business seats with 48-inch pitch.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 44): For all of South India (HYD, BLR and MAA), TK has to use the A332/A333 only.

The A321NEO would be a fantastic plane for such markets which might not yet be ready for a widebody.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 46): However, in some of my recent flights in TK A321s, the business class seats were proper business seats. The planes were very new too. So, I think the new TK planes will have good business seats.