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cosyr
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Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:40 am

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...via-airlines-idUSBRE91G00220130217

Clearly a protest against the size and market share that LATAM will have in South America now, but is this a small, petty country that can't compete complaining, or a fair argument that no one airline should have such a monopoly on the continent?

Unfortunately, not enough details about their reasoning given in the article.
 
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reffado
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:25 am

Not the first time Bolivia tries such methods. I doubt that it will happen, but it would be nice to see Brazil kicking BoA out of GRU, just to see how they react.
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:29 am

TAM does not currently serve Bolivia anyway. Gol is the only Brazilian carrier flying to Bolivia.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
Wingtips56
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:00 am

This appears to be more tit for tat related to a squabble Bolivia is having with Chile, regarding Chile's arrest of 3 armed Bolivian soldiers crossing the border into Chile, more than LATAM's market share. Which has reopened the festering issue of Bolivia having lost its once-upon-a-time access to the sea......settled in a treaty in 1904.... 109 years ago. Not settled, of course, in the Bolivian spirit. (Ever seen Ecuador's version of the map and borders with Perú? Same thing.)

Since LAN has affiliates inmost countries bordering Bolivia, BoA can probably expect to have much of it's international access curtailed in return, if this goes forward. With Lloyd and Aerosur both gone, Bolivia can't expect to dominate the skies with fledgling BoA in the face of established carriers.
Worked for WestAir, Apollo Airways, Desert Pacific, Western, AirCal and American Airlines
 
Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:54 am

I have done some more research and have summarized it here: http://www.ch-aviation.ch/portal/new...m-banned-from-operating-to-bolivia

LAN Perú:
2x daily LIM-LPB/VVI operated as triangular flights (either LIM-LPB-VVI-LIM or LIM-VVI-LPB-LIM) with A319-100s

LAN Airlines:
4x weekly SCL-IQQ-LPB with A320-200s
3x weekly SCL-IQQ-VVI with A320-200s

TAM Airlines (previously TAM Mercosur):
4x weekly ASU-VVI with A320-200s

From what I can tell, they are all still operating with flights being sold as if nothing had happened.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
AR385
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:58 am

Lloyd was an excellent carrier with top of the line pilots. Flying their 722s was a pleasure.

I lived in Bolivia for a year. It is a fantastic country, beautiful, with amazing, friendly people. I really feels sorry for the stupid, horrible government they have that makes this dumb, unproductive decisions.
 
avion660
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:20 am

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 4):
LAN Airlines:
4x weekly SCL-IQQ-LPB with A320-200s
3x weekly SCL-IQQ-VVI with A320-200s

Leaving Sky Airline with no competition? They have several flights a week from SCL to LPB via IQQ and ARI. BoA don't fly to Chile do they?
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:05 pm

Oh My God !!!!! The management of LATAM is currently calling for an emergency meeting, I saw Mr. Cueto running fast from his office with a lot of papers in his hand, the fear in his face was notorious !!!!

I don't want to talk about the reasons for this decision, because I don't have any base to say that this is political, or just an airline "failing" to renew its papers with the local authorities.

I can only say two things with absolute certainty :

1.- The only real losers with this situation are the passengers, mostly the people from Bolivia, where connectivity with the rest of the world just *sucks*.

2.- The overall impact of this situation in the LATAM Group performance is equivalent to the impact of a butterfly smashing into the windshield of a 747 taking off at full thrust....

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
Summa767
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
2.- The overall impact of this situation in the LATAM Group performance is equivalent to the impact of a butterfly smashing into the windshield of a 747 taking off at full thrust....

Bolivia may not be the biggest market, but it's hard to believe that it's a negligible situation, given that you, yourself, say:

"Oh My God !!!!! The management of LATAM is currently calling for an emergency meeting, I saw Mr. Cueto running fast from his office with a lot of papers in his hand, the fear in his face was notorious !!!!"

Very reckless of LATAM to forget to renew their licence. I bet they don't forget to renew their authorities before the US DOT in due time.
I guess that all will be sorted, but they should not take formalities, even in small countries, for granted.

LATAM is important for international links to and from Bolivia, but there are increasingly more frequencies and destinations from different operators. If LATAM were to leave Bolivia because it has no impact on their overall operation, there are others which would take its place very quickly.
 
PDPsol
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:51 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 8):
Very reckless of LATAM to forget to renew their licence. I bet they don't forget to renew their authorities before the US DOT in due time.
I guess that all will be sorted, but they should not take formalities, even in small countries, for granted.

I do not have any evidence here, but I highly doubt the LA management team would "forget to renew" their operating license with aviation authorities in Bolivia. I would imagine this is some silly public effort Bolivia has thought up to harass and/or pressure Chile for purely political reasons. Again, I have no evidence for this, but Bolivia has made similar moves to pressure and confiscate assets from private firms, such as Iberdrola and Repsol from Spain, as well as Abertis, also from Spain, all in the name of "nationalization". Bolivia does not protect private property and investment.
 
airevents
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:02 pm

Any news on this? Up to now, flights seem to be operating. I hope to be on TAM´s flight from VVI to Asuncion in a couple of days...
www.airevents.com
 
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cosyr
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:03 pm

I too miss LAB. My one and only experience on an A310, and it was great. It just seems that South America has a completely different airline industry to the rest of the world. I know that it has some of the smallest flying public of anywhere, but there used to be more competition and it seemed to work. A standoff like this doesn't seem like it will benefit anyone. If Bolivia is successful in stopping LATAM flights, obviously the reciprocal will also be banned and that will have a huge impact on AeroSur.
 
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Polot
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting cosyr (Reply 11):
If Bolivia is successful in stopping LATAM flights, obviously the reciprocal will also be banned and that will have a huge impact on AeroSur.

AeroSur is dead, reciprocal action would affect state owned BoA (Boliviana de Aviación).
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:28 pm

Quoting summa767 (Reply 8):
Bolivia may not be the biggest market, but it's hard to believe that it's a negligible situation, given that you, yourself, say:

"Oh My God !!!!! The management of LATAM is currently calling for an emergency meeting, I saw Mr. Cueto running fast from his office with a lot of papers in his hand, the fear in his face was notorious !!!!"

And you didn't detect the evident mocking in that !!!!??? ....I was, to say the least, being ironic....
I don't have the numbers, I'm just guessing, but considering the percentage of population that have access to air travel in a country with the poverty level of Bolivia, I guess the size of the operations of LATAM Group in Bolivia is probably less than 1 % of the total of the group operations.



Quoting summa767 (Reply 8):
Very reckless of LATAM to forget to renew their licence. I bet they don't forget to renew their authorities before the US DOT in due time.

While I try to not point my finger to anyone since I don't have any proof, if I have to bet, my bet will be :
*90 % to a political, stupid and useless move from the reckless government of Bolivia
* 8 % to any other reason, like fair motivations of opening the market to other competitors or similar.
* 2 % to your theory of a "Very reckless LATAM". Sorry, but "LATAM " and "reckless" in the same sentence is too much, they are not perfect for sure, but the word "reckless" doesn't fit in any part of the LATAM Group.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
CamiloA380
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:29 pm

Am I the only one who notices this:

Quote:
Bolivia's air transport regulator said on Saturday that units of LATAM Airlines Group LAN.SN LATM12.SA had lost their operating licenses to fly in the Andean country, although they could still file to extend or renew them.
Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 4):
I have done some more research and have summarized it here:

They have not been banned as the title of this thread suggests. A ban scenario would be: I'm going to cancel your ops license, and I'm not going to let you fly to my place until further notice. It's the Bolivian government playing silly.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
I lived in Bolivia for a year. It is a fantastic country, beautiful, with amazing, friendly people. I really feels sorry for the stupid, horrible government they have that makes this dumb, unproductive decisions.

Indeed, this government is not only against private investors, but they themselves don't want to improve their infrastructure, since "Pacha mama" has its own right    (and it has recently been put in their constitution).

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
mostly the people from Bolivia, where connectivity with the rest of the world just *sucks*.

Yeah, one of the reasons being, because Chile doesn't want to give Bolivia access to the Pacific. Go figure.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
2.- The overall impact of this situation in the LATAM Group performance is equivalent to the impact of a butterfly smashing into the windshield of a 747 taking off at full thrust....

Which contradicts your super-OHMYGOD-paranoid reaction.
Flying4Ever!
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:33 pm

Any harm done to LAN Perú on their LIM-VVI/LPB flights will surely benefit AV/TA.
And it seems the airlines haven't been banned from flying to Bolivia, just warned to renew/extend its operational certificates, in a very Bolivian way.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:03 pm

I'm not sure:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...via-airlines-idUSL1N0BG1D220130216

Lapsed License - would Bolivia be against two AOC's instead of one for all airlines of this group in the country? Given that they are two/three/four airlines under a same management?

Interesting terms used by the Bolivian authorities - nevertheless quite a precarious situation created by an even more precarious decision.

Saludos,
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
123
Posts: 616
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:21 pm

I know this forum is to keep strictly away from politics, I will try to be as neutral as possible.


According to local press information, I understand LAN and TAM, individually on their own administration, actually did not apply for renewal of their operation licenses to Bolivia. Why, is a mystery for me too, I can only guess that they are trying to apply for a joint operation certificate, to be able to operate with more efficiency and synchronize schedules and ground handling.

It´s only a few days ago that I flew TAM to/from VVI, and concretely in the flight from GRU/ASU/VVI, I noted a large number of transit pax from the ASU-VVI leg, connecting with LAN towards LIM/IQQ+beyond. The LIM/IQQ departures are shortly after the arrival of TAM at VVI, so it does make sense to think, that schedules are being optimized to synchronize flights and be able to develop VVI as a minuscule LATAM hub in the center of Latin America.

I was proud to see that, I think it´s the first time foreign airlines are trying to use a Bolivian airport as a transfer-station.

However, negative part was the local unrealistic regulation, that inspite of being in international transit, those pax had to clear Bolivian immigration. Their luggage it seems could go through, but handluggage was inspected by customs. I felt really annoyed about this, because instead of welcoming transit pax to use VVI as a transit airport, obstacles were in the way. My destination was VVI, but only looking at the weary and annoyed international transit pax let me wonder, how long this inefficient way to transit can work out.

And that´s where I get my point. Possibly part of the delay in renewal of the operation licenses of Tam/Lan have to do with precisely to find a solution to the above mentioned impossible international transit "service".

I´ll be on TAM again shortly, I need the flight, because it helps me get an outstanding connection at GRU+overseas.

I miss their service to CBB, where they used to fly to for many many years - they quit the CBB service as I understand, also due to failure of Bolivian airport systems to adjust to their quality requirements (=improve ground service). They used to be for years the only foreign operator into CBB, now, we have at CBB only our local airlines. I know Taca and Lan considered flights into CBB, but the bilateral agreements (max.2 airports) limit that decision.

Let´s see the outcome of all, again with absolute respect to the forum and specially to the Chile-based a.netters, that decisions of Lan/Tam operations into Bolivia are based solely on real operations, not on politics.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 22):
Because LATAM forgot to renew it's operating permits into Bolivia...

Do you have a source for that affirmation ?

I think this is much more reasonable :

Quoting 123 (Reply 18):
I understand LAN and TAM, individually on their own administration, actually did not apply for renewal of their operation licenses to Bolivia. Why, is a mystery for me too, I can only guess that they are trying to apply for a joint operation certificate, to be able to operate with more efficiency and synchronize schedules and ground handling.

Rgds.
G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
mandala499
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:25 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 23):
Do you have a source for that affirmation ?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...via-airlines-idUSL1N0BG1D220130216
Forgot or deliberate or whatever... the fact remains, their operating licenses to go into Bolivia (ie: authority to operate into Bolivia) had expired and failed to be renewed before the expiration.

Does Bolivia accept a single operation certificate for 2 different AOCs from 2 different countries flying into it? Perhaps not (my country doesn't, and a lot of countries don't). Synchronizing schedules and ground handling does not need a single joint operation certificate.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
SCL767
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:10 pm

LATAM has not been "banned" from Bolivia. LAN actually applied for seven additional frequencies between Perú and Bolivia during Q3 last year was permitted to increase frequency on the LIM-LPB-VVI route starting on 01NOV12. Regardless, LATAM's flights into Bolivia from ASU, IQQ, and LIM remain normal and not one single flight has been affected.
 
SJOtoLIR
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 2):
TAM does not currently serve Bolivia anyway. Gol is the only Brazilian carrier flying to Bolivia.


Gol flew to Santa Cruz in the past as G3 VVI-CGR-GRU on a daily basis.




.

Quoting Thomas_Jaeger (Reply 4):
LAN Perú:
2x daily LIM-LPB/VVI operated as triangular flights


The advantage of Lan Peru in Bolivia consists to offer two daily flights and feeding the LIM bank whereas AV/TA flies no more than LIM-LPB 7x weekly and LIM-VVI 7x weekly, being the Peru-Bolivia sector operated as "red-eyes."




.

Quoting 123 (Reply 17):
I miss their service to CBB, where they used to fly to for many many years - they quit the CBB service as I understand, also due to failure of Bolivian airport systems to adjust to their quality requirements (=improve ground service).


Correct me if I'm wrong, but TAM MercoSur flew the triangular route ASU-CBB-VVI-ASU.

Regards.
"Goin' up to the spirit in the sky"
 
winGl3t
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:52 pm

RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):

Gol flew to Santa Cruz in the past as G3 VVI-CGR-GRU on a daily basis.



Gol flies to VVI 10 times weekly non-stop to GRU nowadays.

G3 7600 / 1234567 / GRU 1100 / VVI 1305 / 738
G3 7602 / 1..45.7 / GRU 2200 / VVI 0010+1 / 738

G3 7603 / 12..56. / VVI 0320 / GRU 0710 / 738
G3 7601 / 1234567 / VVI 1345 / GRU 1730 / 738
 
IAHFLYR
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Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 12:56 am

RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 12):
AeroSur is dead


Indeed, they ceased all operations in May 2012.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
I lived in Bolivia for a year. It is a fantastic country, beautiful, with amazing, friendly people. I really feels sorry for the stupid, horrible government they have that makes this dumb, unproductive decisions.


Bolivia is certainly a wonderful spot, the people may be the most friendly I have ever met as a whole. Sure it is a poor country but so many beautiful places to visit, great food and more. I totally agree with your comment on the government and things they have done to some business in the country, shame.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Lloyd was an excellent carrier with top of the line pilots. Flying their 722s was a pleasure.


I hated seeing all their airplanes sitting around VVI and CBB just dying away.

Quoting 123 (Reply 17):
However, negative part was the local unrealistic regulation, that inspite of being in international transit, those pax had to clear Bolivian immigration. Their luggage it seems could go through, but handluggage was inspected by customs. I felt really annoyed about this, because instead of welcoming transit pax to use VVI as a transit airport, obstacles were in the way.


Last month I was in transit at VVI on the way from PTY-CBB. We had both checked luggage and roll-a-boards and immigration only looked at the luggage tag on the checked bags, took about 10 seconds and we were done. Even re-clearing security for the BoA flight to CBB they didn't even blink at our roll-a-boards.

I was very surprised that both of my BoA flights as well as other family members flights between VVI-CBB and back were all full.

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 20):
LATAM's flights into Bolivia from ASU, IQQ, and LIM remain normal and not one single flight has been affected.


Correct as late as last week when my daughter-in-law flew from ASU-VVI.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
SCL767
Posts: 2812
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:25 am

RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 23):

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 20):
LATAM's flights into Bolivia from ASU, IQQ, and LIM remain normal and not one single flight has been affected.


Correct as late as last week when my daughter-in-law flew from ASU-VVI.

LATAM's flights into both LPB and VVI continue to operate as planned without any changes.

Today's schedule includes 4 flights into VVI and 2 flights into LPB:
LAN Airlines:
LA0970 SCL-IQQ-VVI
LA0971 VVI-IQQ-SCL
LAN Perú:
LA2561 LIM-LPB-VVI
LA2569 VVI-LPB-LIM
LA2567 LIM-VVI-LPB-LIM
TAM Paraguay:
PZ0702 ASU-VVI
PZ0701 VVI-ASU

Tomorrow's schedule includes 3 flights into LPB and 2 flights into VVI:
LAN Airlines:
LA0968 SCL-IQQ-LPB
LA0969 LPB-IQQ-SCL
LAN Perú:
LA2561 LIM-LPB-VVI
LA2669 VVI-LPB-LIM
LA2563 LIM-LPB-VVI-LIM
 
123
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):

Correct me if I'm wrong, but TAM MercoSur flew the triangular route ASU-CBB-VVI-ASU.

Absolutely correct, and added, that sometimes they flew ASU-VVI-CBB-VVI-ASU, and codeshared the VVI/CBB/VVI with LB - That flight was bursting all the time, consumers loved to fly the F100's that served at that time the route VVI/CBB/VVI.

That did not last long, afterwards they went as you say, ASU-CBB-VVI-ASU, first with F100's, then with A320's.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 23):
Last month I was in transit at VVI on the way from PTY-CBB. We had both checked luggage and roll-a-boards and immigration only looked at the luggage tag on the checked bags, took about 10 seconds and we were done. Even re-clearing security for the BoA flight to CBB they didn't even blink at our roll-a-boards.

I was very surprised that both of my BoA flights as well as other family members flights between VVI-CBB and back were all full.

OK but look at the time you arrived at VVI - sometime midnight? Then, the airport is empty and arrivals/departures are swift.

Boa is always full. Bear in mind, who competes? Tam Bolivia (Military, nothing to do with Tam Brazil)....




Today's press release of "El Deber" Santa Cruz - sorry, only Spanish - http://eldeber.com.bo/lan-y-tam-merc...de-pasajes-en-bolivia/130221231831 - has frightening contents.

I have a flight forseen for April 5th VVI-ASU-GRU with TAM, my reservation disappeared (OK, it was not paid yet), and talking with my travel agency, the system does not generate flights... neither for TAM routes nor LAN routes.

Guess we´ll have to start using paragliders to make cross-border journeys...
 
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asuflyer
Posts: 137
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RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:04 pm

Apparently UX is having license problems with Bolivia as well and may have to end the VVI-MAD route.

Quoting SJOtoLIR (Reply 21):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but TAM MercoSur flew the triangular route ASU-CBB-VVI-ASU.

Yes CBB ended shortly after the F100's left. And they started 4 weekly ASU-LPB which didn't last long.
 
123
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting asuflyer (Reply 26):
Apparently UX is having license problems with Bolivia as well and may have to end the VVI-MAD route.

Did not hear that - does not surprise me though, after the LPB/VVI/CBB airports were nationalized, formerly they were administered by SABSA, a joint venture including AENA of Spain.... For me, if UX's flights are suspended into VVI, I can probably guess that Spain would revoke the permit for BOA's Spain-services....

Quoting asuflyer (Reply 26):
Yes CBB ended shortly after the F100's left. And they started 4 weekly ASU-LPB which didn't last long.

Actually the CBB leg was served many years with A320's, I flew them quite often.

LPB lasted as you say a short time, and I know the flight was often cancelled or late, I don´t know why though.
 
Gonzalo
Posts: 1529
Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:43 am

RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting 123 (Reply 27):
For me, if UX's flights are suspended into VVI, I can probably guess that Spain would revoke the permit for BOA's Spain-services

That will be the most fair move. I'm sorry for the people losing options for connectivity with Europe, but it is time that all this Bolivarianos like Evo, Kirchner and friends, start to understand that stealing the assets and/or investments that belong to foreign companies is not for free. I think Spain was/is extremely patient and tolerant with this messianic authorities who think that stealing is the best way to conduct international relations. Bolivia, as long with Argentina, should be banned for any commercial relation with the rest of the countries who are respectful and honors their compromises.

G.
Gear Up!!: DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20-21 / B732 / B763 / B789
 
123
Posts: 616
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Bolivia Bans LAN And TAM

Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:06 pm

Gonzalo, I fully agree with you!

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