mozart
Topic Author
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What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:51 am

I remember having read somewhere that Canada and the UAE had a row about traffic rights which in effect capped the number of flights between the two to a low number. Also, Canada is one of the few "rich friendly" countries whose citizens are required to get a visa to enter the UAE (unlike the USA or any of the EU countries).

What is the story there?
 
rwsea
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:27 am

 
flyingalex
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:34 am

Executive summary:

Canada has rules whereby new airlines are given three flights a week to start with, to one airport. As traffic is proven, more flights can be applied for.

The UAE's carriers (Etihad and Emirates) wanted more slots and more cities, and they wanted them right away. Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.
Public service announcement: "It's" = "it is". To indicate posession, write "its." Looks wrong, but it's correct grammar
 
3rdGen
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:50 am

All foreign citizens need visas to enter the UAE. The difference is that the cost for Canadian Citizens and the availability was changed to make life more difficult.

The story is just that Emirates want more flights into Canada and the Canadian govt wouldn't (still won't) allow it as there is fear about the consequences for AC. So they had a spat and the UAE government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE and imposed the visa restrictions. Not much more else to it.
Currently the UAE has rights for six flights a week into Canada, split evenly between EY and EK.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
Quokkas
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:05 am

The basics that the UAE requested additional access, including frequencies and gateways. Canada did offer to allow additional gateways but within the same overall number of seats sold. Effectively the Canadians were saying, "sure you can go to YVR but you'll have to sell fewer tickets out of YYZ." It was an offer intended to be rejected. The UAE took umbrage at this calculated insult and responded in kind.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
All foreign citizens need visas to enter the UAE

Previously citizens of Canada could obtain a free visa on entry, unlike citizens of the UAE visiting Canada who have always had to apply and pay in advance.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE

In accordance with the lease, which had expired (an extension had previously been granted) and Canada had already announced they would be winding down their presence.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
3rdGen
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:01 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
Previously citizens of Canada could obtain a free visa on entry, unlike citizens of the UAE visiting Canada who have always had to apply and pay in advance.

Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free? I'm sure they still have to pay something at the immigration counter.

I think what you are talking about is getting a visa on arrival, the privilege of which was cancelled for Canadians. Which is why I said "the availability was changed". The original poster said that " Canada is one of the few "rich friendly" countries whose citizens are required to get a visa to enter the UAE (unlike the USA or any of the EU countries)." No even citizens of the US and EU are required to get a visa, they just get it on arrival as opposed to getting it beforehand.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
okees
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:10 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free?

Before the visa restrictions, I went to Dubai and got a 60 day visa at the immigration counter for free. No I believe the visa for entry into the UAE is close to 1000 dollars!.
mobs jakis
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:11 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free? I'm sure they still have to pay something at the immigration counter.

I think what you are talking about is getting a visa on arrival, the privilege of which was cancelled for Canadians. Which is why I said "the availability was changed". The original poster said that " Canada is one of the few "rich friendly" countries whose citizens are required to get a visa to enter the UAE (unlike the USA or any of the EU countries)." No even citizens of the US and EU are required to get a visa, they just get it on arrival as opposed to getting it beforehand.

For Australian's there is no visa fee. I think that is the case for EU/US citizens as well. Like the Canadians, we still need to get a visa on arrival but it's free whereas the Canadians must pay a fee.
319_320_321_332_333_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W
 
Quokkas
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:23 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free?

I have never been required to pay anything when I have entered the UAE. Sponsorship may be required and this can be arranged through the airline (for example EK, EY, FZ) or through a hotel where accommodation has been booked. Citizens of the following countries can obtain a visa on arrival free of charge:
Australia, Andorra, Austria , Brunei, Belgium, Denmark , Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein,Luxembourg, Malaysia, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States of America , The Vatican.

At immigration a stamp is placed in the passport and this is valid for 30 days. A 30 day extension can be applied for but this involves a charge. Different rules apply for those wishing to take up residence and employment.




Corrected spelling

[Edited 2013-02-18 04:26:46]
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
3rdGen
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:45 pm

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I don't know of any other GCC state that lets anyone in for free. In Qatar you have to pay by credit card, no cash.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
mozart
Topic Author
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:04 pm

I am a EU citizen but not a UAE resident. and I use an "e-gate" access, basically a credit-card sized card that lets me use turnstyle checkpoints with biometric controls. I pay nothing and I do not get a visa. Only my ID is checked (biometrically so to speak), but no stamp is in my passport.

Thanks for the other background information.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
The story is just that Emirates want more flights into Canada and the Canadian govt wouldn't (still won't) allow it as there is fear about the consequences for AC.

I think it's also important to note that there seems to be a lot of contention over what type of traffic each carrier is targeting (or protecting) and that's been the primary reason for the spat. EK claims that there is enough O&D demand between Canada and UAE to justify greater weekly frequencies into YYZ, as well as expand into YYC, YVR, YUL etc. AC, conversely, argues that EK simply wants to siphon off traffic between those regions and countries in SE Asia, Africa, Middle East, etc over the DXB connecting hub, which would be AC's loss. Although AC doesn't fly to virtually ANY of those cities nonstop from Canada on its own metal, it does so via Lufthansa thanks to the transatlantic JV between the two carriers. So not only does AC have something at stake here, but also its partner carriers.
confidence is silent. insecurities are loud.
 
BA0197
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
Executive summary:

Canada has rules whereby new airlines are given three flights a week to start with, to one airport. As traffic is proven, more flights can be applied for.

The UAE's carriers (Etihad and Emirates) wanted more slots and more cities, and they wanted them right away. Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
All foreign citizens need visas to enter the UAE. The difference is that the cost for Canadian Citizens and the availability was changed to make life more difficult.

The story is just that Emirates want more flights into Canada and the Canadian govt wouldn't (still won't) allow it as there is fear about the consequences for AC. So they had a spat and the UAE government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE and imposed the visa restrictions. Not much more else to it.
Currently the UAE has rights for six flights a week into Canada, split evenly between EY and EK.

There is both sides of the argument for you  
 
SCQ83
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:57 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 9):

It is the only GCC country for which is free for US/EU citizens. In Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman and Qatar you can get it on arrival but you gotta pay a fee and in Saudi Arabia you need a pre-arranged visa.
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
there is fear about the consequences for AC.

It's not about protecting AC. If that was the case, then the feds would limit all international airlines...especially those directly competing on AC routes.

Policy is that more slots are reserved for countries with the most O&D traffic. Since there is very little UAE O&D traffic, and slots are a finite commodity, countries with more direct passenger traffic between them and Canada are given priority.

The UAE got upset when they couldn't get what they wanted, so they started playing silly games which has netted them exactly nothing. Very few Canadians live in the UAE and most of the ones who do work there. That means their companies pay for their visas. Fewer Canadians visit the UAE so there has been very little impact with the visa changes.

It's basically a non issue for the vast majority of Canadians.

[Edited 2013-02-18 13:45:28]
What the...?
 
AirCanada787
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:40 pm

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):

The UAE's carriers (Etihad and Emirates) wanted more slots and more cities, and they wanted them right away. Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
Currently the UAE has rights for six flights a week into Canada, split evenly between EY and EK.

UAE carriers got six slots right away. Emirates said they wanted at least seven before they would begin service to Canada. While EK kept complaining Etihad decided to start their own service to Canada using three of the slots. EK was then only left with three for themselves but they could have had all six if they wouldn't have held out for seven.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
there is fear about the consequences for AC.

It's not about protecting AC. If that was the case, then the feds would limit all international airlines...especially those directly competing on AC routes.

Policy is that more slots are reserved for countries with the most O&D traffic. Since there is very little UAE O&D traffic, and slots are a finite commodity, countries with more direct passenger traffic between them and Canada are given priority.

The UAE got upset when they couldn't get what they wanted, so they started playing silly games which has netted them exactly nothing. Very few Canadians live in the UAE and most of the ones who do work there. That means their companies pay for their visas. Fewer Canadians visit the UAE so there has been very little impact with the visa changes.

        

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
It's basically a non issue for the vast majority of Canadians.

Indeed many Canadians don't even know about this 'issue' much less care.
The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:32 am

Oh dear.  
Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
Canada has rules whereby new airlines are given three flights a week to start with, to one airport. As traffic is proven, more flights can be applied for.

EK started serving two-three years before the spat started. They claim they proved there was enough traffic in that period. Read into that what you will.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 2):
Canada said no, wait your turn like everybody else, and the UAE threw a hissy fit.

Not really. The landing rights got tied to a military base lease extension (it had been extended before allegedly on the basis of resolving the landing rights issue). The talks stalled. The lease expired. Relations are on the mend now.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
The difference is that the cost for Canadian Citizens and the availability was changed to make life more difficult.

I believe that the visa fees are significantly lower if they fly EK or EY. It was an opportunistic shot at LH more than AC or Canada (unless the passenger is so wedded to AC/LH that he won't fly anyone else)

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 3):
So they had a spat and the UAE government kicked out the Canadian Forces from a camp in the UAE and imposed the visa restrictions.

Not quite. Lease expired. Talks on extending the lease stalled with the talks on landing rights.

Quoting 3rdGen (Reply 5):
Can citizens of western countries enter the UAE for free? I'm sure they still have to pay something at the immigration counter.

Yes. Apart from Canadians.

Quoting okees (Reply 6):
No I believe the visa for entry into the UAE is close to 1000 dollars!.

I've read that those fees are lower if you fly EK/EY. Some even claim its included in the cost of the ticket. Personally, I have no idea.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
Although AC doesn't fly to virtually ANY of those cities nonstop from Canada on its own metal, it does so via Lufthansa thanks to the transatlantic JV between the two carriers. So not only does AC have something at stake here, but also its partner carriers.

In a nutshell.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
It's not about protecting AC. If that was the case, then the feds would limit all international airlines...especially those directly competing on AC routes.

Before the EU Open Skies agreement, AF couldn't fly to YVR - thats how restrictive Canadian rights were/are. Because of Open Skies with the EU ( a reflection of its strong links with the EU, as well as its mediocre/poor links with everyone east/.south of EU - the latest overtures to India/China/Asia notwithstanding), AC can't keep EU carriers out. Non EU carriers are restricted - TK and ET are both examples, not to mention QR and now SV. The 'AC routes' bit is irrelevant - AC opposed EK on the grounds of it affecting YOW-FRA.

AC TATL network relies (to whatever extent) on feeding traffic to partners at hubs - this was what AC itself cited in its plea for protection. Is this about protecting AC? If its not, why is it so difficult for us to hand out 1 daily frequency to every new airline, knowing full well that frequency affects a route's viability (whether they use it or not should be the airline's prerogative, not the Governments - or so says Canada's 'commitment' to 'free market' principles)? That said, to blame only AC for this would be wholly misleading, though one has to ask how much the interests of one private company should be allowed to dictate public and foreign policy.

The most absurd thing about it all is that AC claimed Canada would lose 10,000 jobs if EK got a daily flight. As it turns out, EK didn't get them. That didn't stop AC from playing a direct hand in the loss of 2700 high-skilled jobs. Waiting to see how long it takes for AC to blame EK/EY for those job losses.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
Policy is that more slots are reserved for countries with the most O&D traffic

Still waiting for KL and OS to prove they warrant the amount of frequencies they have. Or, to put it more succinctly, this is a smokescreen. Some airlines don't have daily frequency, let alone new cities, several years after they start serving. TK and its desire for YUL is one such example.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
The UAE got upset when they couldn't get what they wanted, so they started playing silly games which has netted them exactly nothing.

Correct. It also didn't cost them anything. Which is more than we can say about Canada.

A bizzare episode with no winners and only one loser. As both foreign ministers have pointed out, its in the past now. Nothing to look at. Canada's insularity will ensure its no great loss - after all, the only group that is actually affected is the South Asian minority, most of whom can benefit greatly from AC/LH's one stop service to South Asia (read India - no EU carrier flies to Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka - aka the rest of South Asia). In fairness, PK has flights to Canada - not sure how many, but its not daily. 3 weekly or 5 weekly or something. And UL has apparently got an agreement with AC as well.
 
Viscount724
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:50 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Before the EU Open Skies agreement, AF couldn't fly to YVR

AF was permitted to serve YVR under the old bilateral but only from PPT. They of course never served that route. QF did operate PPT-YVR with 5th freedom rights for a few years in the 1970s.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Still waiting for KL and OS to prove they warrant the amount of frequencies they have.

KL or OS or any other EU-based carriers don't have to prove anything. Under Open Skies they can operate as many frequencies as they want between all 27 EU countries (plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) and anywhere in Canada. Vice versa for Canadian carriers.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):

KL or OS or any other EU-based carriers don't have to prove anything. Under Open Skies they can operate as many frequencies as they want between all 27 EU countries (plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) and anywhere in Canada. Vice versa for Canadian carriers.

I know. Thats the entire point - namely that Canada engages in practices that are counter intuitive - allowing LH and KL to fly daily from four cities to any number of desintations (including ADD), while demanding that ET prove traffic on ADD with - what was it - two weekly? - even though the policy is, allegedly, to promote direct links.

Meanwhile, the rest of the developed world has no qualms about giving at least one daily frequenciy to anyone who asks.

Go figure.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
AF was permitted to serve YVR under the old bilateral but only from PPT.

I learn something new everyday. Thats an interesting tidbit.
 
Viscount724
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:32 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 18):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):

KL or OS or any other EU-based carriers don't have to prove anything. Under Open Skies they can operate as many frequencies as they want between all 27 EU countries (plus Switzerland, Norway, Iceland) and anywhere in Canada. Vice versa for Canadian carriers.

I know. Thats the entire point - namely that Canada engages in practices that are counter intuitive - allowing LH and KL to fly daily from four cities to any number of desintations (including ADD), while demanding that ET prove traffic on ADD with - what was it - two weekly? - even though the policy is, allegedly, to promote direct links.

The Canada-EU Open Skies agreement doesn't necessarily permit KL or LH to operate daily between Canada and ADD. That depends on the bilaterals between the Netherlands/Germany and Ethiopia.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:46 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 19):

The Canada-EU Open Skies agreement doesn't necessarily permit KL or LH to operate daily between Canada and ADD. That depends on the bilaterals between the Netherlands/Germany and Ethiopia.

Of course. But one would imagine that if the goal was to pursue direct links with a wide range of countries (a very important sticking point, it should be noted, in the EK case), factors that would affect those links (like KL and LH) would also be taken into account while determining how many frequencies to provide.

To provide frequencies in isolation without actually considering whats going on out there would be akin to throwing a book down a flight of 5 stairs and providing frequencies according to the step the book landed on (fourth step = four, and so on). If the aim is to encourage Ethiopia-Canada links, then wouldn't it make more sense to give ET 7 frequencies and let it determine how many it wants to use? Or is that asking too much?

After all, EK, ET, TK, QR, EY, SV - all of these boil down to the whole 2/3 weekly policy, even while their main competitors are allowed daily flights. The UAE case is nothing special in this regard, though Canadians have a happy habit of pointing to the "direct links" clause everytime EK comes up. It is, of course, curiously absent when they defend the 2-3 weekly frequncies that everyone else gets.
 
andrefranca
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 8):
I have never been required to pay anything when I have entered the UAE. Sponsorship may be required and this can be arranged through the airline (for example EK, EY, FZ) or through a hotel where accommodation has been booked. Citizens of the following countries can obtain a visa on arrival free of charge:
Australia, Andorra, Austria , Brunei, Belgium, Denmark , Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hong Kong, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Liechtenstein,Luxembourg, Malaysia, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, South Korea, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, United Kingdom, United States of America , The Vatican.

At immigration a stamp is placed in the passport and this is valid for 30 days. A 30 day extension can be applied for but this involves a charge. Different rules apply for those wishing to take up residence and employment.

The "visa requirement" is a farse! yeah the "rich friendly" nations get on arrival, and most of the others get it when they book their flights with EK, on their website, in less than 24 hrs? WOW WHAT A SHOCK!...... Not  
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:55 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Before the EU Open Skies agreement, AF couldn't fly to YVR

Yet dozens of other international airlines could.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
The most absurd thing about it all is that AC claimed Canada would lose 10,000 jobs if EK got a daily flight. As it turns out, EK didn't get them. That didn't stop AC from playing a direct hand in the loss of 2700 high-skilled jobs. Waiting to see how long it takes for AC to blame EK/EY for those job losses.

Yah...just like they promised to fly to YYC...fantasy jobs just like fantasy routes.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):

Still waiting for KL and OS to prove they warrant the amount of frequencies they have.

Both have significantly more O&D traffic with Canada than the UAE.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Correct. It also didn't cost them anything. Which is more than we can say about Canada.

It didn't cost Canada a thing. Mirage was going to be shut down anyway and any costs of moving would have happened regardless. Canada does very little business with the UAE and what business there was, continued just fine. People working in the UAE have always had to pay for visas and their companies continued to do so. Very few Canadians ever chose to vacation in the UAE so any visa fees were a non issue.

Canadians weren't then, and aren't now and never will be, hampered in any way by the current level of flights to and from the UAE.
What the...?
 
Quokkas
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Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:51 pm

RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:50 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Yah...just like they promised to fly to YYC...fantasy jobs just like fantasy routes.

I am assuming by "they" you are referring to EK rather than AC. If so, EK didn't promise anything. They provided an economic assessment to support their request for additional rights. Whether the assessment was correct is open to dispute and a request for rights is not a guarantee of the use of those rights. An example is access to Clark in the Philippines. EK obtained rights in 2009 but has only just announced the commencement of that route. EK could start (has rights to) Bratislava but I don't see them starting in the near future.

What is clear is that the UAE and EK were unwilling to accept a deal that offered slightly fewer seats overall than they currently sell. Starting YYC under Canada's offer would have meant either giving up a rotation at YYZ or purchasing smaller aircraft. At present EK may sell seats to operate 3 x weekly A380 or approx 1,550 seats weekly. If EK wanted to start daily to both YYC and YYZ they would need to purchase something a lot smaller than the aircraft in their current fleet or fly near empty. Unfortunately, Bombardier don't have anything to offer with sufficient range.

I am not competent to judge the state of the market in Canada and accept that the Government of Canada has the right to determine its own policies. But I believe the simple economics of Canada's "offer" meant that it was predictably unacceptable and was meant to be.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
ElPistolero
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:31 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Yet dozens of other international airlines could.

Thats nice, but it still raises the issue of undue Government interference in the supply and demand equation. Hence restrictive policy.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Yah...just like they promised to fly to YYC...fantasy jobs just like fantasy routes.

I was referring to Aveos - the Canadian maintenance company. Heard of them? Try telling them they were doing 'fantasy' jobs. Well, I suppose you don't need to - AC already has. Jobs that existed were lost - hence "loss of 2700 jobs".



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):

Both have significantly more O&D traffic with Canada than the UAE.

Enough Netherlands-Canada traffic to warrant 20+ frequencies to 4 cities? Ironic, given your disdain for fantasy.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
It didn't cost Canada a thing.

Well, there was that odd UN Security Council episode. Oh, and a year scouting all types of Middle Eastern countries before settling on setting up a base in Kuwait. And the inconvenience of using Cyprus as a staging base - increasing the flight distance significantly. But as we all know, fuel in 2010/11 cost nothing.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Mirage was going to be shut down anyway and any costs of moving would have happened regardless.

That explains the decision to open a new base in Kuwait to replace it. The UAE base itself is still open - apparently its being used by the Aussies and Dutch.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canadian-force...re-staging-base-in-kuwait-1.669135

Amusing revisionism. That said, its all but over. Relations are on the mend.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 4):
The UAE took umbrage at this calculated insult and responded in kind.

Calculated insult? The Canadian government was blocking UAE carriers from poaching non-O&D traffic (which everyone on A-net knows EK and EY rely on). If you consider that to be an insult, that's on you.

As for the "responded in kind" part, let's review: The UAE now charges Canadian citizens a visa fee of $250 for a 30-day and $1,000 for a 6-month visa. The UAE openly lobbied against Canada's bid at a UN Security Council seat due "trade policies". The UAE denied landing rights to a Canadian government aircraft carrying federal ministers which then had to reroute. The UAE ambassador to Canada considers their trade relationship "soured"

All of this over a couple of airlines who didn't get what they wanted. See the over-reaction?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
It's basically a non issue for the vast majority of Canadians.

True, but a major inconvenience for many in the business community.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
I've read that those fees are lower if you fly EK/EY. Some even claim its included in the cost of the ticket. Personally, I have no idea.

I quickly tried to book a ticket just now from YYZ-DXB via the EK website and could not find any mention of such a discount or inclusion. The only mention is a warning at the top of the page to "review visa requirements", along with a small message that describes a couple of the conditions.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 16):
Still waiting for KL and OS to prove they warrant the amount of frequencies they have. Or, to put it more succinctly, this is a smokescreen.

I don't know about OS, but KL certainly warrants the capacity out of YYZ (I can't comment on YUL, YYC, or YVR). There is a massive Dutch community in Southern Ontario, especially in the rural areas.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 23):
Starting YYC under Canada's offer would have meant either giving up a rotation at YYZ or purchasing smaller aircraft. At present EK may sell seats to operate 3 x weekly A380 or approx 1,550 seats weekly. If EK wanted to start daily to both YYC and YYZ they would need to purchase something a lot smaller than the aircraft in their current fleet or fly near empty.

Let's do some math:

DXB-YYZ A380 = 496 X 3 = 1488 weekly seats

DXB-YYZ/YYC A330 = 237 X 3 X 2 = 1422 weekly seats

Remind me again why they would have to purchase anything "a lot smaller than the aircraft in their current fleet"?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):
I was referring to Aveos - the Canadian maintenance company. Heard of them? Try telling them they were doing 'fantasy' jobs. Well, I suppose you don't need to - AC already has. Jobs that existed were lost - hence "loss of 2700 jobs".

I think that can of worms is best left closed for the sake of the topic at hand.
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:07 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
Remind me again why they would have to purchase anything "a lot smaller than the aircraft in their current fleet"?

Because the request and preference is for daily flights and the calculations made are for daily flights - i.e 14x and not the 5x in your example. But even accepting your figures, that is still less than EK is able currently to provide (and not even taking cargo capacities into the equation) and ignores the fact that EK has commenced retiring the A332s from the fleet, although they could extend the leases.
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
(which everyone on A-net knows EK and EY rely on).

As opposed to LH, KL, AF, LX....? Lets not forget that the UAE has a pretty significant O&D market, what with the large expat population there.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
The UAE now charges Canadian citizens a visa fee of $250 for a 30-day and $1,000 for a 6-month visa.

??????

1) U.A.E. Embassy in Ottawa

a. The Embassy issues three types of visit visas:

i. Short term visa (Single Entry), with a validity of 30 days (non-renewable) – CAD $165
ii. Long term visa (Single Entry), with a validity of 90 days (non-renewable) – CAD $330
iii. Multiple Entry Visa (Valid for 6 months, maximum stay in UAE 30 days each visit) – CAD $660

http://www.uae-embassy.ae/embassies/ca/content/2117

Incidentally, on the same page:

2) Emirates Airlines and Etihad Airlines

The National Airlines of the United Arab Emirates issue visit visas to Canadian citizens holding confirmed reservations only. The contact details for the two airlines are provided below.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
The UAE ambassador to Canada considers their trade relationship "soured"
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...-with-nuclear-deal/article4552179/

I think things have changed for the better.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
All of this over a couple of airlines who didn't get what they wanted.

It wasn't a one way street. Sure they over-reacted. But there has to be an action to cause a reaction. And that action was to deny what - 4 more daily slots to EK? Worth losing a base over? The lease extension was explicitly tied to resolving the landing rights issue. Either we didn't realize what was at stake or we gambled and lost. They behaved very poorly, but it takes two hands to clap.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):

I think that can of worms is best left closed for the sake of the topic at hand.

I don't disagree. All I will do is point out that AC's 'argument' against EK included this particularly impressive tidbit:

"The impact of greater UAE access to Canada would mean the loss of nearly 2.5 million international passengers putting over 20 international flights at risk representing over 10,000 direct and indirect jobs*."

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/facts/industry/emirates.html

Protecting Canadian jobs was part of the justification for keeping EK out. It was used by a cabinet minister and AC. As it turns out, keeping EK out didn't save any jobs - AC managed to help Canada lose 27% of those jobs anyway - which begs the question: was it a valid reason to keep EK out?
 
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:40 am

I'm waiting to see if either QR or FZ purchase the C-series in an attempt to gain more rights into Canada. Al-Bakr has been quietly hinting that he'd consider the aircraft.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:44 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):
Thats nice, but it still raises the issue of undue Government interference in the supply and demand equation. Hence restrictive policy.

Governments all over the globe use aviation rights as pawns in their international games. Both EK and EY are doing the bidding of their respective govnerments...they just happen to do things differently than Canada...but it's naive at best to believe that the Emirati airlines aren't being used as part of a national agenda.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):
Enough Netherlands-Canada traffic to warrant 20+ frequencies to 4 cities? Ironic, given your disdain for fantasy.

I guess there is since the flights exist. Nobody is forcing the airlines to fly the routes. If they were losing money, the flights would stop...and you're right...I do have a disdain for fantasy...that's why I prefer living in the real world.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):

True, but a major inconvenience for many in the business community.

Every been to the UAE? I don't think so. Business didn't change in the least. The visa processes didn't change in the least. Maybe the fees changed but not enough for Canadian companies to leave or Emirati companies to stop doing business.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):
Well, there was that odd UN Security Council episode. Oh, and a year scouting all types of Middle Eastern countries before settling on setting up a base in Kuwait. And the inconvenience of using Cyprus as a staging base - increasing the flight distance significantly. But as we all know, fuel in 2010/11 cost nothing.

There's no evidence that Canada was going to get a security council spot so that really is fantasy. The UAE based the deal on flights on continuing the use of Mirage. Only a moron would cut a long term deal based on a short term lease. The Canadian forces left Mirage sooner than they planned but they were going to leave anyway. Paying more for fuel is a small price to pay for not bowing down to the Emirati's whims.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):

That explains the decision to open a new base in Kuwait to replace it. The UAE base itself is still open - apparently its being used by the Aussies and Dutch.

Mirage was the name for the Canadian part of the base...and since Canada was leaving Afghanistan, Mirage was going to be closed. What anyone else does at the airport is their business.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):
Amusing revisionism. That said, its all but over. Relations are on the mend.

Mirage was being leased short term. Losing Mirage wasn't nearly as stupid as having the UAE decided Canada's foreign policy.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
As opposed to LH, KL, AF, LX....? Lets not forget that the UAE has a pretty significant O&D market, what with the large expat population there.

The O&D market is for workers, not tourists so your price list doesn't apply. Those are just for tourist visas. Work visas were never free.

EK was kept out because it is federal policy to give preference to airlines from countries with significant O&D traffic. There are plenty of Canadian expats in the UAE, but most don't live in Canada. They either live in the UAE or elsewhere...Thailand is popular. Few actually commute.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
Protecting Canadian jobs was part of the justification for keeping EK out. It was used by a cabinet minister and AC. As it turns out, keeping EK out didn't save any jobs - AC managed to help Canada lose 27% of those jobs anyway - which begs the question: was it a valid reason to keep EK out?

Air Canada losing jobs and EK flying to Canada don't have much to do with each other. EK wouldn't have saved those jobs.

Not that it matters in the least. Until this thread, the topic wasn't anything related to actual news more than a few times in the past two years. It's ancient news, long past its best before date and not even remotely relevant anymore.
What the...?
 
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yyz717
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:37 am

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 15):
Indeed many Canadians don't even know about this 'issue' much less care.

Exactly. It's really only an external issue for EK who are being thwarted in their expectations/demands for unfettered international authority, and perhaps a very tiny but vocal community of SE Asians in Toronto who benefit from EK.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Canadians weren't then, and aren't now and never will be, hampered in any way by the current level of flights to and from the UAE.

If All EK and EY flights were banned, most Canadians would not even notice, let alone care. Our economy would continue to grow, life would go on.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 22):
Yet dozens of other international airlines could.

Thats nice, but it still raises the issue of undue Government interference in the supply and demand equation. Hence restrictive policy.

That issue goes both ways. What about EK being owned by the Dubai government? What about the exaggerated growth of EK which exceeds all expectations of air travel growth in any market? Is EK financially supported by the Dubai govt? Or are their capital investments guaranteed? What about the massive airport infrastructure being funded by the Dubai government, which benefits EK? What about the exaggerated priority of international route authority for EK that the Dubai govt places near the top of any bilateral/national trade relationship? EK is clearly heavily favoured if not financially supported by the Dubai government. This is far more invasive to the supply and demand equation than the rather benign Cdn govt edict not to allow EK any more landing rights.

Holy moly....all this for a country (Dubai) that does not even share our Western values of democracy, rule of law and treatment of minorities.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 24):
Enough Netherlands-Canada traffic to warrant 20+ frequencies to 4 cities? Ironic, given your disdain for fantasy.
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
There is a massive Dutch community in Southern Ontario, especially in the rural areas.

Canadian-Dutch ties (ethnic and business) are very deep. Over 10% of Cdns have some Dutch background. The Dutch have been in Canada since before Confederation.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
It's basically a non issue for the vast majority of Canadians.

True, but a major inconvenience for many in the business community.

Naw. There is really no business traffic to Dubai from Toronto. I work on Bay St. I've never met a single business person who's travelled to Dubai on EK. The business community flies to YVR, YUL, YOW, NYC, LHR, ORD, YWG, YEG, LAX, YYC etc....the same cities they did 40 years ago and the same cities they will in 40 years from now. Yes, it's boring, but traffic patterns don't really change that much. The SE Asian community would have you believe that ALL roads lead to DEL or BOM but they really don't (and likely, never ever will).
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777way
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:58 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30):
Holy moly....all this for a country (Dubai) that does not even share our Western values of democracy, rule of law and treatment of minorities.

Aww .. but they provide evrerything for your types to enjoy from booze to prostitutin, to skimpy clad women walking around freely unhindered, clubs and even places of worship for the faithful.

And which minorities are you referring to? same that you are adressing in your post with obvious bias, the SE Asians, actually its South Asians, SE Asia is Thailand, Malaysia etc.
 
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:44 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 31):
And which minorities are you referring to?

South Asians. The ones who live for generations in Dubai but have no right of residency or citizenship. Do you support this policy? These are not Western values.

Dubai is not a country that Canada should align itself with, whether diplomatically or from a trade perspective. If Dubai wants liberal landing rights in Canada, they should adopt liberal human rights policies.

I'm big on commerce and business, but I'm bigger on human rights, which means that human rights can be used as a carrot or stick to reward good human rights records (as we see in all Western nations) and punish bad human rights records as we see in Dubai (and moreso, in Pakistan).

Anyone who supports additional landing rights for EK in Canada is tacitly (or directly) supporting the shameful human rights record of the Dubai givernment, and that is un-Canadian.
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777way
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:09 am

Unfortunately things dont work the way you would like them to be, it might be un-Canadian/Western/Democratic but its also un-Diplomatic and foolish, Dubai cannot allow a large non-Arab majprity to become citizens making them a minority in their own country, will Canada do that? even Israel is not for a single state with a Palestinian majority, a Jewish country with a non-jew majority, same issues for Dubai more so since majoriity south asians there are Indians and majority of them are non-Muslim, so when Canada or israel accept change of demographics in their countries you can point a finger at the Gulf states.

BTW some Gulf states do allow nationaly to people under certain conditions in Bahrain one can get that after having lived and worked there for 25 years.

Back to main topic whiich I think is done with anyways.
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:52 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
Dubai is not a country that Canada should align itself with, whether diplomatically or from a trade perspective. If Dubai wants liberal landing rights in Canada, they should adopt liberal human rights policies.

I'm big on commerce and business, but I'm bigger on human rights, which means that human rights can be used as a carrot or stick to reward good human rights records (as we see in all Western nations) and punish bad human rights records as we see in Dubai (and moreso, in Pakistan).

And so it is fine to do trade with China then? There are some well documented cases of human rights abuses there too.

I can understand both the UAE/Canadian perspective but not sure you can justify banning/limiting flights purely on human rights grounds (however how unjust that may be).

**For the record, there was this exact same debate put up by QF many years ago re: landing rights of EK. The Australian Govt went on and gave EK landing rights anyway. And now QF are getting into bed with EK  

I think it is very far fetched to also suggest Canada granting additional landing rights is equivalent to Canada "tacitly (or directly)" supporting the UAE's human rights policies. Does Australia granting EK up to 100 flights a week mean that Australia glowingly endorses the UAE's policies- I think not.

[Edited 2013-02-20 03:01:51]

[Edited 2013-02-20 03:02:22]
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
Governments all over the globe use aviation rights as pawns in their international games.

Some more than others. Australia, the US, EU (just about any developed country really) have more liberal aviation policies than us. Their threshold for using aviation rights as pawns in international games is a lot higher than ours (3 weekly - 1970s style).

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
but it's naive at best to believe that the Emirati airlines aren't being used as part of a national agenda.

That is very common knowledge. So common, that airlines are openly emulating it. Think TK.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
I guess there is since the flights exist. Nobody is forcing the airlines to fly the routes. If they were losing money, the flights would stop...

Or there is a lot of transitting traffic (not O&D). KL in Canada is doing what EK wants to do. The difference, of course, is that one is an European airline while the other is an Arab one.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
The Canadian forces left Mirage sooner than they planned but they were going to leave anyway. Paying more for fuel is a small price to pay for not bowing down to the Emirati's whims.

Keep making things up as you go along.

"Canada is working to establish a network of support hubs in strategic locations around the globe.

The military has an agreement with Germany for an operations hub in Cologne.

It also operates a base in Kuwait to supply Canadian troops in Afghanistan.

Canada was forced to make those arrangements when its troops were evicted from their base at Camp Mirage in Dubai after a dispute erupted between Canada and the United Arab Emirates over landing rights for commercial airlines.

The Defence Department is reportedly in talks with Singapore to put a base there as well.

The military says its goal is to make it easier and cheaper to conduct and maintain international deployments anywhere in the world."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor.../canada-jamaica-military-base.html

http://www.cjoc-coic.forces.gc.ca/os-so/osh-cso-eng.asp

Mirage was always meant to be a long term setup (albeit in a dormant state post-Afghanistan) which could be activated when necessary. This now applies to Kuwait and that base in Germany. Mirage had the benefit of being close to Jebel Ali, which is arguably the best seaport in the region.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
since Canada was leaving Afghanistan, Mirage was going to be closed.

Nope. See above.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
Losing Mirage wasn't nearly as stupid as having the UAE decided Canada's foreign policy.

Agreed. That said, having AC decide Canada's foreign policy (as we did in that instance) didn't work out any better.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
Those are just for tourist visas. Work visas were never free.

It was in reference to the numbers the other poster provided.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
EK was kept out because it is federal policy to give preference to airlines from countries with significant O&D traffic.

KL would wilt if it had to prove that. As noted above, even AF couldn't go to YVR (from France - apparently they could from PPT) despite the obvious O&D on Canada-France (AC even created an airplane config especially for France). AF is now covered by the Open Skies agreement, but the same rules still apply to non-EU airlines, which is the crux of the issue here. Maybe federal policy should look at best practices from around the world, instead of staying so insular?

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
Air Canada losing jobs and EK flying to Canada don't have much to do with each other. EK wouldn't have saved those jobs.

Oh I agree completely. I am just pointing out that it takes a special type of cynicism to put those lines on your website as an objection to EK when those jobs were at risk regardless of EK. EK wouldn't have saved those jobs - agreed - but to connect job losses to EK to deny EK rights, and succeed, and then cut those jobs anyway....its disturbingly cynical.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30):
a very tiny but vocal community of SE Asians in Toronto who benefit from EK.

Are they Canadian citizens with equal rights? If so, how does the size of the community matter? Ever heard of tyranny of the majority?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30):
What about EK being owned by the Dubai government?

What about - ANZ, MS, SU, AI, PK, CI, CA, AY, LO? A moot point I think.
 
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:45 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 26):
Because the request and preference is for daily flights and the calculations made are for daily flights

That's the whole crux of the argument - we aren't going to just give them what they want because they want it.

But to revisiting my numbers (completely forgetting about the A330s), even switching to a 772, the numbers still work. They can still open up a second route in Canada while keeping with similar seat numbers at the same frequency.

I've never flown EK, but a good Indian friend of mine does to go visit family, and he says that the A380 out of YYZ has never been close to full.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 26):
not even taking cargo capacities into the equation

I've never heard of cargo being a contentious issue in this debate.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
As opposed to LH, KL, AF, LX....?

I can't argue with LX, but LH, KL, and AF have plenty of O&D traffic. You can only really blame LH for poaching the African transit pax, which no Canadian airline flies anyway.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
Lets not forget that the UAE has a pretty significant O&D market, what with the large expat population there.

27,000 expats warrants A380 service?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/stor...10/10/emirates-planes-landing.html

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
a. The Embassy issues three types of visit visas:

i. Short term visa (Single Entry), with a validity of 30 days (non-renewable) – CAD $165
ii. Long term visa (Single Entry), with a validity of 90 days (non-renewable) – CAD $330
iii. Multiple Entry Visa (Valid for 6 months, maximum stay in UAE 30 days each visit) – CAD $660

http://www.uae-embassy.ae/embassies/.../2117

My mistake. I was sourcing outdated information.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 27):
Protecting Canadian jobs was part of the justification for keeping EK out. It was used by a cabinet minister and AC. As it turns out, keeping EK out didn't save any jobs - AC managed to help Canada lose 27% of those jobs anyway - which begs the question: was it a valid reason to keep EK out?

I believe those two issues are mutually exclusive. All I'll say is that AC's claims were definitely grasping at straws, but they weren't totally removed from reality. Revenue would have been hurt, just not to the tune of whatever ridiculous numbers they were claiming.

In hindsight, the Aveos mess was going to happen regardless of whatever happened with EK/EY.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30):
Canadian-Dutch ties (ethnic and business) are very deep. Over 10% of Cdns have some Dutch background. The Dutch have been in Canada since before Confederation.

I'm not sure if that number applies to all of Canada, but it's certainly believable in Ontario. It's funny actually, just down the road from YKF there is a high school that is about 90-95% Dutch students. I wonder if KL should set-up shop in Waterloo Region  
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
If Dubai wants liberal landing rights in Canada, they should adopt liberal human rights policies.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 32):
Anyone who supports additional landing rights for EK in Canada is tacitly (or directly) supporting the shameful human rights record of the Dubai givernment, and that is un-Canadian.

I don't think human rights has a card in the decision. As already mentioned, there are several other flights out of YYZ to countries with less-than-stellar human rights records.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 35):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 29):
but it's naive at best to believe that the Emirati airlines aren't being used as part of a national agenda.

That is very common knowledge. So common, that airlines are openly emulating it. Think TK.

  
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:40 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 36):
I've never heard of cargo being a contentious issue in this debate.

I think he was referring to the cargo capacity that would be lost by switching to those aircraft (payload restrictions?).

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 36):
You can only really blame LH for poaching the African transit pax, which no Canadian airline flies anyway.

Errr...India? 9th biggest source of tourists for Canada in 2010, according to StatsCan. Throw in Canadians of Indian origin going in the other direction and you get an idea of why the ME3, with their extensive South Asia networks, want in.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 36):
27,000 expats warrants A380 service?
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 36):
but LH, KL, and AF have plenty of O&D traffic


AF, perhaps. LH.... I'll quote Rovinescu:

"Air Canada's Rovinescu cites Ottawa-Frankfurt as an example. "When you look at who travels on this flight, only 15% are people going between Ottawa and Frankfurt."

Granted, with LH its a bit difficult to tell, since AC is essentially managed by LH on TATL.

KL - 20+ flights to 4 cities ...I don't buy it. The vast majority of it is connecting traffic. OS is another example.
 
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:54 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 30):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 25):
There is a massive Dutch community in Southern Ontario, especially in the rural areas.

Canadian-Dutch ties (ethnic and business) are very deep. Over 10% of Cdns have some Dutch background. The Dutch have been in Canada since before Confederation.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
KL - 20+ flights to 4 cities ...I don't buy it. The vast majority of it is connecting traffic. OS is another example.

You have mentioned KL several times. The Netherlands has always been very liberal in granting traffic rights to foreign carriers. CP was operating from 5 cities in Canada to AMS almost half a century ago. How could Canada prevent the Netherlands from increasing their service from AMS? That would hardly be very fair. And note that KLM didn't even serve Toronto until 1974. Their only Canadian destination until then was Montreal., when CP had been operating from 5 Canadian cities to AMS since the mid-1960s.

The Netherlands was also very helpful when CP was on the verge of beginning service to London in the mid-1950s, until a new government came to power in the UK and revoked CP's landing rights before service started, arguing that only government-owned airlines should be permitted to operate between Canada and the UK. The Netherlands then quickly granted CP landing rights in AMS which became CP's only gateway to northern Europe for decades starting with CP's first service to AMS in mid-1955. At one time in the early 1980s CP had direct service from 7 cities in Canada to AMS. The Netherlands could have easily said no but they didn't based on their long-standing openness to foreign trade.

[Edited 2013-02-20 18:59:45]

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:01:44]

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:04:52]

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:06:13]
 
ElPistolero
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:46 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 38):
How could Canada prevent the Netherlands from increasing their service from AMS?

I never said that. And I certainly don't want less of KL (or any carrier) in Canada. The point is that if KL can enjoy Carte Blanche without :

a) proving this O&D/direct links component that some folk here keep on harping about (the curious case of ET really should put an end to that)
b) Destroying AC's network despite being a more direct competitor to AC on TATL routes, unlike EK, which can only realistically compete with AC and its TATL overlord LH on some African routes, South Asia and the ME.

...then it stands to reason that the vast majority of excuses being offered up as reasons for keeping EK out(such as job losses, proving traffic and the prioritization of direct links - we are all seeing how that is working out for TK and ET)are largely moot. We can go around in circles trying to paint EK or AC as the demon in this issue, but the reality is that its down to an aviation policy that, while (perhaps justifiably) Eurocentric, is also not as liberal as the rest of the developed world. If anything, KL faces far more competition and a far more severe threat from EK than AC ever will, but that hasn't stopped the Netherlands from being more liberal with aviation than Canada. This is, for whatever reason, a reality that is lost on most Canadians.
 
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:17 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
QF did operate PPT-YVR with 5th freedom rights for a few years in the 1970s.

Was that a fuel stop when travelling from SYD to YVR and the rest of Canada?
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yyz717
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:21 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 39):
We can go around in circles trying to paint EK or AC as the demon in this issue, but the reality is that its down to an aviation policy that, while (perhaps justifiably) Eurocentric, is also not as liberal as the rest of the developed world.

Maybe, but so what? Canada is extremely liberal (by world standards) in just about every other economic, political and social measure. We certainly don't need to bend over backwards just to satisfy the whining demands of UAE carriers, and if that makes us a tiny bit less liberal because of a bilateral philosophy based on O+D demand between nations, then so be it.

Canadians, by and large, have all the bilateral freedoms we need already. We travel primarily domestically and transborder. Canadians, by and large, do not travel to India and never will, so a change in the bilateral treaty with the UAE to satisfy the tiny minority of Canadians (or, more broadly, residents in Canada) who are of Indian background (perhaps 2% of our population at most) is not in Canada's interests for a host of reasons, first and foremost maintaining bilateral negotiation consistency with other nations.

[Edited 2013-02-20 21:23:01]
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777way
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:31 am

I think that tiny minority might be pretty ok with the thrice weekly A380 and have no issue over EK non-expansion in Can, infact it might be EK using them as a card to gain greater access without their knowledge, why are you singling them out anyways?
 
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:59 am

In 2012, around 850,000 tourists stayed at least one night in the UAE, with the average being just over 2 nights stay. That's the total number of tourists from everywhere.

In 2010, 2.3million European tourists travelled to Canada. 260,000 Canadians travelled to The Netherlands alone in 2009, averaging 10 night stays.

If Canadians really want to get to the UAE, there are plenty of ways to do it. If they're not happy with the number of Emirati flights from Canada, they can one stop from many locations in the US or Europe.

This is a non issue...for Canada, the UAE...everybody except a few who just can't enough of beating dead horses. The numbers justify the stance taken by the federal government and if Canadians are suffering from lack of service, you can't tell it by the deafening silence on the issue.

Of course, mere facts aren't nearly enough to quell the rabid enthusiasm of tin hatters for a juicy conspiracy, so have fun, eh?
What the...?
 
ElPistolero
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:38 pm

Although this seems straightforward enough, it seems to be lost on a lot of folk here:

India =/= South Asia (and vice versa).

Most European carriers serve India. No European carrier serves any South Asian country other than India. The only one-stop options to the vast majority of cities in South Asia are offered by the ME3. TK is beginning to expand, but its a long way from matching the likes of QR.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 41):
Canadians, by and large, do not travel to India and never will, so a change in the bilateral treaty with the UAE to satisfy the tiny minority of Canadians (or, more broadly, residents in Canada) who are of Indian background (perhaps 2% of our population at most) is not in Canada's interests for a host of reasons, first and foremost maintaining bilateral negotiation consistency with other nations.

Thats nice, but India is one of the top 10 sources of tourism for Canada, and given our tourism deficit:

"When we presented to this committee in the last Parliament, I made mention of our travel deficit, which is the difference between what we, as Canadians, spend outside of Canada versus what we take in. For 2009, that figure was $12.2 billion. Last month, we received new data from Statistics Canada for 2011, and we are now showing a travel deficit of $15.9 billion, or an increase of $1.6 billion, over that period"

I really don't think we should scoff at sources of tourism. Just for the record, the Canadian Tourism Commission actually tracks 12 countries closely. India is one of them.

http://en-corporate.canada.travel/research/market-knowledge/india

But you're right - most Canadians will never go to India. They'd rather go to Cuba (third largest destination after the US and Mexico), that paragon of liberal...everything.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 41):
We travel primarily domestically and transborder.

People travelled primarily by train before air travel became affordable.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
In 2012, around 850,000 tourists stayed at least one night in the UAE, with the average being just over 2 nights stay. That's the total number of tourists from everywhere.

Source?

FWIW, I can point to any number of sources that show that figure to be tin hat fantasy, but I'll provide you to the link of of a private company that actually spends a lot of money monitoring the market. Namely, Mastercard. They produce a Global Destination Cities Index. Here's what it says for 2012

London - 16.9 m
Paris - 16.0 m
Bangkok - 12.2m
Singapore - 11.8m
Istanbul - 11.6m
Hong Kong - 11.1m
Madrid - 9.7m
Dubai - 8.8m

...

Toronto - 3.6 m

http://newsroom.mastercard.com/wp-co..._Destination_Cities_Index_2012.pdf

Now, I m not saying that this is 100% accurate, but its a LOOOONG way off from the 850,000 you posit.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
In 2010, 2.3million European tourists travelled to Canada. 260,000 Canadians travelled to The Netherlands alone in 2009, averaging 10 night stays.

I half suspect the UAE got more EU tourists than Canada.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
If Canadians really want to get to the UAE, there are plenty of ways to do it.If they're not happy with the number of Emirati flights from Canada, they can one stop from many locations in the US or Europe.

Ah yes, the age old Canadian habit of telling other Canadians how to spend their money, instead of giving them the same market power that they themselves enjoy. Personally, when a supplier is willing to supply, I'm not a big fan of the Government or anyone telling me how I should use my money (especially fter artificial constraints stop that supplier from selling to me.) I know, I know...its a very American trait. Imagine spending your money by buying from your supplier of choice (value for money, quality and all that), instead of being told to make the best of whats available.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
The numbers justify the stance taken by the federal government and if Canadians are suffering from lack of service, you can't tell it by the deafening silence on the issue.

Frankly, even I don't care about EK. Flown them once in 2005. Never will again (*A junkie and all that). That said, the EK case is a good example of how outdated Canadian policies are vis-a-vis the rest of the world. It is also arguably a case where a private airline's interests were put before the country's. After all, if you're going to get into a diplomatic spat, coming out with less than what you went in with is generally not a good outcome. In fact, its a pretty bad one.
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:44 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 43):
In 2012, around 850,000 tourists stayed at least one night in the UAE, with the average being just over 2 nights stay. That's the total number of tourists from everywhere.

I think you got your figures wrong. There were alot more than 850,000 tourists (that stay > 1 night). Add one more zero to your number and you're closer to the right figure.
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pnwtraveler
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:10 pm

My one and only post to this thread as I am bored silly of the argument is to correct some history being loosely thrown about. Frankly Canadians don't give a rats patootie about it either. You had better believe if there was a public outcry the government would have taken notice.

Despite the usual process of a carrier being given fewer slots (usually calculated on estimated demand) like Turkey who got 3 slots to Canada. And as demand is shown the bilateral is amended. The UAE and Canada negotiated 6 slots. Whether Camp Mirage was explicitly part of the negotiation or a nice thank you for it I don't have the specific information. At that stage EK publicly said they wanted daily to start service. That wasn't going to happen so no service started. Etihad then decided to ask for 3 of the slots and announced service. EK in order to not lose the rest of the slots took the remaining three and have since negotiated in the press. As the situation worsened and EK strongly pushed the UAE then the situation changed. The UAE was fine with 6 slots as that is what they negotiated. Etihad was quite fine with 3 slots. It was EK who has made all the noise. I am better connected in Abu Dhabi and hear quite a different story than is publicly portrayed by EK. EK has been even more pointed with their own government and loud with the UAE government. Since they are such a key component to the Dubai diversification strategy of course they will be listened to.

IF EK is correct at all the pent up demand in Toronto I would expect Etihad to very quickly put an A380 on the route when they have enough in their fleet. We will see. I know there have been some baby steps to improved relations and publically both seem to want to lower the heat, and EK isn't squawking as much in the press. However, I don't think the situation will change much until perhaps one of the other Emirs is elected to head the UAE IMHO.

In the meantime Turkey who has since increased their number of slots twice despite starting service much later than EK, has worked the process to their advantage. I think it is only a matter of time until they start service in another city (YUL) and become daily in Toronto. Same with Qatar, despite the frequent bluster that comes from the head of that airline on other topics. I fully expect them to convert more of the cargo slots to passenger and perhaps move them around to a different airport. Same with a number of new airlines regardless of Alliance membership.
 
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c172akula
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:41 pm

I can't wait until this gets resolved and EK can start daily A388 service to YYC...   
 
flyingalex
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 44):
Most European carriers serve India. No European carrier serves any South Asian country other than India.

Hogwash.

British Airways serves Bangladesh and the Maldives, and will soon serve Sri Lanka again.

In addition, several European airlines serve the Maldives and Sri Lanka.

Only Pakistan and Nepal are without service from European airlines at present.
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ElPistolero
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RE: What Is The Issue Between Canada And The UAE?

Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:54 pm

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 46):
The UAE and Canada negotiated 6 slots.
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 46):
Etihad then decided to ask for 3 of the slots and announced service.
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 46):
I am bored silly of the argument is to correct some history being loosely thrown about.

"4. For the purposes of Article XI (Capacity) the Government of the United Arab Emirates shall be entitled to allocate the following capacity among its designated airlines for the operation of own aircraft and code sharing services:


- for direct own aircraft services, up to a maximum of four flights per week in each direction without restriction as to size of aircraft effective immediately, five flights per week effective June 1, 2001 and six flights per week effective June 1, 2003. Requests for seasonal increases in frequency shall be given sympathetic consideration consistent with paragraph 5 of Article XI. The operation of a frequency beyond three flights per week by any one designated airline shall be subject to the approval of the aeronautical authorities of both Contracting Parties."

http://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text-texte.aspx?id=104312

I'll repeat that last line:

"The operation of a frequency beyond three flights per week by any one designated airline shall be subject to the approval of the aeronautical authorities of both Contracting Parties."

The treaty was signed in 2001. Etihad was founded two years later, in July 2003. Which begs the question - if the UAE had only one airline, then why was a restriction placed on the "operation of a frequency beyond three flights per week by any one designated airline."?

All of which is to say that for someone who talks about loose dissemination of history, you seem hell-bent on revising/distorting it completely. EK was never going to get all six slots wihtout Canadian approval (which, as we all know, is soooo forthcoming). Instead of leaving them empty, the UAE used them for its other airline.

I've noted before that some Canadians have been peddling all sorts of myths on this topic - I suppose we can now put the myth that EK could have had all six slots to rest (for the umpteenth time).

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 46):
In the meantime Turkey who has since increased their number of slots twice despite starting service much later than EK,

Turkey started serving Canada in 2009/10 with 3 frequencies. Its 2013. They have 5. This is despite the fact that Turkey has long replaced Canada in the list of top 10 tourist destinations in the world.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 46):
I think it is only a matter of time until they start service in another city (YUL) and become daily in Toronto.

3 years. 2 extra slots. If this is any indication, they should be daily in YYZ by 2015, three weekly in YUL by 2020 and daily in YUL by 2026. Or maybe they'll get three frequencies in YUL to start, in which case they should be at daily in YUL by 2021. I suppose its how you describe "only a matter of time". Personally, I see that as ridiculously slow.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 46):
Same with Qatar, despite the frequent bluster that comes from the head of that airline on other topics.

QR is still only on 3 frequencies and that is not going to change anytime soon. How long have they been in Canada? 2 years? With not one additional slot added.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 48):
British Airways serves Bangladesh and the Maldives, and will soon serve Sri Lanka again.

BA stopped flying to DAC in 2009. Lots of immigrants in Canada from the Maldives these days? Because I know a lot of immigrants from Bangladesh, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, and even a couple from Nepal. I see now that BA is going to start LGW-MLE-CMB flights in April 2013.

Progress, I suppose. Not sure how that benefits any folk of Sri Lankan origin in Canada since it offers a rather brilliant routing - Canada - LHR-LGW-MLE-CMB. Sounds like fun. And I bet it would be affordable too. Or theres the ME 3 that offer YYZ/YUL-ME stop- CMB option. But you know - as long as they have the option to inflict that absurd routing on themselves, Canadians will tell them they have enough options.

Quoting flyingalex (Reply 48):
In addition, several European airlines serve the Maldives and Sri Lanka.

Nope. Apart from BA's LGW-MLE-CMB flight, which has not yet commenced, no European airline has a regularly scheduled service to CMB. As for Maldives, technically you're correct, it is a South Asian country, albeit one that has no discernible links to Canada - unlike, say, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Pakistan and, to a lesser degree, Nepal. Maybe we should add Bhutan to the have nots list too.