Gonzalo
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QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:15 pm

I have a couple of questions about this. A QR A321 flying from Doha to Budapest diverted to Teheran after an engine failure. Why is this flight taking a route so far to the North ? Are they trying to avoid Iraqi Airspace ? And what happens to the passengers without the right papers to enter into Iran if the diversion causes a cancellation of the flight ? Can a citizen of Israel or U.S. enter into Iran in a situation like this ?

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45e0c6ec&opt=0

Thanks for your inputs.

Rgds.
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9MMPQ
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:05 pm

A fair share of international traffic seems to route through Iranian airspace. I've read (but am not sure how true it still is) that the ATC infrastructure is still being brought up to standard & at least up until 2011 the USAF still was controlling parts of Iraqi airspace on their behalf. If that's still actual then sticking to what has worked for such a long time (Iranian airspace) doensn't seem so strange.

Most nationalities can get visas at the bigger airports, certainly in Teheran, and as US citizens can apply for Iranian visa too i would assume they can get that arranged upon arrival. Not sure about Israeli citizens but once they arrived on a diversion what could you do except perhaps keep them in the airport ? As the airline would certainly take action to get it's passengers out i'd suppose the worst that could happen is you'd be stuck in the airport for a day, maybe two.
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jbmitt
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:27 pm

NW had a flight divert to Tehran and by all accounts the Iranians were very helpful, and it was a non-issue.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:35 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Why is this flight taking a route so far to the North ? Are they trying to avoid Iraqi Airspace ?

This is something of a "normal" route between the Gulf and Europe. Whenever I've flown DXB-LON/MAN we have gone over Iran and then banked over into Turkey once we were north of Iraqi airspace. I understand that some flights route over Saudi airspace and then Jordan/Israel but I've never done that.
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AeroWesty
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting jbmitt (Reply 2):
NW had a flight divert to Tehran and by all accounts the Iranians were very helpful

  

It was NW flight 41, a DC-10 from BOM to AMS in June 2005. It wouldn't make any sense for the government of Iran to give anyone problems in what is a safety and humanitarian situation.
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SCQ83
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:52 pm

Also EK diverted not long ago to IKA because of a medical emergency and the passenger affected was American.
 
turjo101
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:56 pm

This topic of Israelis being forced to land in Iran has been thoroughly discussed and was found to be a non issue.

US Airliner Makes Emergency Landing At Tehran (by JoKeR Jun 19 2005 in Civil Aviation)

see story above.

Every day there has got to be a few dozen if not hundreds of Western passengers, who have have Israeli stamps on their passports on the various flights to and from DXB, DOH, AUH, BAH, KWI...I am sure airline officials would route flights differently if this was an issue.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
It was NW flight 41, a DC-10 from BOM to AMS in June 2005. It wouldn't make any sense for the government of Iran to give anyone problems in what is a safety and humanitarian situation.

I hope that will be always the case. Honestly I don't want to go into politics, nor offend to anyone since I'm sure the Iranian common people, as the majority of the people of all over the world, are good and friendly people, and I know there are certain international conventions about this cases, but with the same transparency, I recognize that I had my doubts about what could happen to a couple of citizens of Israel when his flight lands in a place who's authorities claim their home country shouldn't exist...

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kc135topboom
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:34 am

I wonder what the Israelis and Iranians would do if an LY airplane had to emergency divert into IKA? I know, I know, LY doesn't have any flights that go anywhere near Iran, but maybe it would for a charter.

Or how about an IR flight emergency diverting into TLV?

I would guess the country receiving the emergency aircraft would escort it using their respective Air Forces, both into and out of the country.
 
liftsifter
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:42 am

Ask yourself what an Israeli citizen is doing in Doha anyways..

US citizens are allowed into Iran but are not given the crew de la crem treatment that they're used to getting while entering most countries.
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Gr8Circle
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:58 am

I would think if a country gives over flying rights through their airspace to any airline, it would know that there could be some possible emergency involving that airline, some time in future, and they may have to host passengers of different nationalities who happen to be on board......it's not that you start thinking about what stand to take when an emergency situation happens.....you also have your own national carrier(s) to think about and should be worried about the repurcussions if you mistreat or refuse to admit any of the stranded passengers.....your own airline could be in the same situation tomorrow.....

Of course, that's idealistic thinking......never know what may happen in reality because it all depends on the officials on the spot at that moment....
 
Gonzalo
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:14 am

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 6):
see story above.

That thread is from 2005. Lot of things are different ( not precisely better ) in the relations between Iran and certain countries like U.S. or Israel.

Quoting gr8circle (Reply 10):
you also have your own national carrier(s) to think about and should be worried about the repurcussions if you mistreat or refuse to admit any of the stranded passengers.....your own airline could be in the same situation tomorrow.....

We are talking about a country where the authorities are defying the international community with nuclear tests and threats despite a long time under hard economic and politic sanctions and isolation... I doubt that authorities will care too much about their national airline, but obviously I could be veeeery very wrong.

In any case, like I said before, I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion, my original question ( " Can a citizen of Israel or U.S. enter into Iran in a situation like this ? " ) has been answered at some degree in earlier replies.

Rgds.
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flyboy_se
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:15 am

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 9):
Ask yourself what an Israeli citizen is doing in Doha anyways

Unlike UAE and Saudi Arabia and few other countires, Israeli citizens can enter Qatar. In fact Qatar is doing business with quite a few Israelis.

So for them going to Doha would not be an issue
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kc135topboom
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 9):
Ask yourself what an Israeli citizen is doing in Doha anyways..

Ask the Israelis and Qataries. You would be surprised at how much business Israelis do in Arab countries, under the surface of the press and average citizens.
 
flyboy_se
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:19 am

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 1):
As the airline would certainly take action to get it's passengers out i'd suppose the worst that could happen is you'd be stuck in the airport for a day, maybe two.

The article mentiones that a replacement A321 arrived in BUD with a delay of 7 hours.
As DOH is only 2 hours from IKA, it is not a big issue to send a replacement aircraft. However if the aircraft was in GRU or MEL, it would take little more time.
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solarflyer22
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:38 am

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 6):
This topic of Israelis being forced to land in Iran has been thoroughly discussed and was found to be a non issue.

This is a non-issue and there have been several aircraft that have diverted to Iran, including for medical reasons.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 7):
recognize that I had my doubts about what could happen to a couple of citizens of Israel when his flight lands in a place who's authorities claim their home country shouldn't exist...

As a Farsi speaker, which I am guessing you are not, they are saying its a political entity that should not exist. They are not saying kill every Israeli. They are saying there should be an Islamic Government run by Palestinians in other words. Its frequently incorrectly translated in the West or exaggerated.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
Or how about an IR flight emergency diverting into TLV?

I would imagine TLV would abide by the same treaties Iran and the US are part of.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 11):
We are talking about a country where the authorities are defying the international community with nuclear tests and threats despite a long time under hard economic and politic sanctions and isolation..

Perhaps you are confusing them with North Korea. There has not been a Nuclear Test in Iran nor do they threaten nations the way North Korea does. I have never actually heard any of their leaders threaten invasion of anywhere.

I would imagine due to the sanctions, Iran might "impound" an aircraft one day. If its a BA, UA or AA flight. They might take an airframe since sanctions prevent purchasing planes for civilian purposes. They would in essence foreclose on it in response to sanctions. They UK impounded a Mahan Air 747 so its not far fetched.
 
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:52 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
Or how about an IR flight emergency diverting into TLV?

There was an Iranian plane that was flying over Israel, a few years back, that had to make an emergency landing of some sort. Don't remember all the details....but I think it ended up landing at an Israeli military base, instead of at TLV. Anyone else remember this? Anyone have any details?
 
delawareusa
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:48 am

When Iran gives rights to foreign airliners to overfly Iran, they have to expect diversions and facilitate a diversion without an international incident. If not, Iran's flight will not be allowed to overfly other countries.

Only time I know of this was not immediately honored was an Air Canada flight that was coming from Cuba, and had to divert to mid west US (Ohio?) The US administration back then (Bush II) was trying to find evil Americans traveling to Cuba illegally, Caused quite a fuss until Bush II let another Air Canada plane land and take the passengers out without a passport check.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:51 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 11):
We are talking about a country where the authorities are defying the international community with nuclear tests and threats despite a long time under hard economic and politic sanctions and isolation... I doubt that authorities will care too much about their national airline, but obviously I could be veeeery very wrong.

In any case, like I said before, I'm not trying to turn this into a political discussion, my original question ( " Can a citizen of Israel or U.S. enter into Iran in a situation like this ? " ) has been answered at some degree in earlier replies.

Obviously you are trying to politicize the issue since you are making up asanine claims about a country you obviously know less than nothing about.
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delta747tlv
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
I wonder what the Israelis and Iranians would do if an LY airplane had to emergency divert into IKA? I know, I know, LY doesn't have any flights that go anywhere near Iran, but maybe it would for a charter.

LY takes outrageous routes as to not fly over any countries such as Iran where they have hostile relations. It was discussed on some thread at some point that LY TLV-BOM was at least 2hrs longer block time than RJ AMM-BOM due to the routing to avoid flying over Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc.
 
flyenthu
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:16 am

Whenever I fly from DXB-IAH, we fly over Iran for a long time. It is always bumpy during winter bc of the mountains. This time I took some pics of what looked similar to Grand Canyon-esque terrain (check my trip report, click to enlarge pics). It was really pretty. I, too, have wondered about an emergency landing in Iran. From the responses, it appears not to be an issue.
 
rfields5421
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 11):
Lot of things are different ( not precisely better ) in the relations between Iran and certain countries like U.S. or Israel.

Yes, it was several years ago. And the political situation has changed in some respects,

However, Iran has absolutely NOTHING to gain by not treating unexpected passengers or stranded passengers with anything but courtesy and helping them get on their way. They have a great deal to lose if there were to be any issues with passengers of such an emergency landing aircraft.

Iran makes a lot of money from transit aircraft ATC fees. Hard currency which cannot be interdicted by any embargos.

Risking losing that money is not going to happen.
 
luganopirate
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:58 am

Looking at Flightradar24 QR, EK etc all overfly Iraq. To/from Europe I see very few planes overflying Iran.

They all now avoid Syria however!
 
777way
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting delta747tlv (Reply 19):
LY takes outrageous routes as to not fly over any countries such as Iran where they have hostile relations. It was discussed on some thread at some point that LY TLV-BOM was at least 2hrs longer block time than RJ AMM-BOM due to the routing to avoid flying over Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, etc.

Partly incorrect El Al are banned from flying over ME, Afghan, Pak, Bangla, Malay, Indonese airspace, they do not avoid the airspace on their own choosing.

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 16):
There was an Iranian plane that was flying over Israel, a few years back, that had to make an emergency landing of some sort. Don't remember all the details....but I think it ended up landing at an Israeli military base, instead of at TLV. Anyone else remember this? Anyone have any details?

impossible, unless it was that hijacking incident involving an Iranian spy for israel who took the plane there some twenty years or more ago, it landed at a military base

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 18):

So true, that post made me wonder too about the intent.
 
esdex
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:14 am

Israel, Iran and the US are all signatories to the Chicago Convention 1944 but not uniformly of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) which relevantly defines the concept of 'innocent passage' for ships and aircraft in distress while in another State's territorial airspace over territorial seas. A couple of key provisions of the Chicago Convention summarised:

Article 5: Each contracting State agrees that all civil aircraft of other contracting States, subject to all the terms of the Convention, shall have the right to make flights into or in transit non-stop across its territory and to make stops for non traffic purposes without obtaining prior permission, subject to the right of the State flown over to require landing.

(Note that scheduled international air services are regulated under Article 6 but a technical/emergency diversion is an Article 25 issue)

Article 13: Entry and clearance regulations- The laws and regulations of a contracting State as to the admission to or departure from its territory of passengers, crew or cargo of aircraft, such as regulations relating to entry, clearance, immigration, passports, customs, and quarantine shall be complied with by or on behalf of such passengers, crew or cargo upon entrance into or departure from, or while within the territory of that State.

Article 25: Each contracting State undertakes to provide such measures of assistance to aircraft in distress in its territory as it may find practicable and subject to control by its own authorities, the owners of the aircraft or authorities in the State in which the aircraft is registered as may be necessitated by the circumstances.

In short, an aircraft in distress needs to be provided necessary assistance, but persons not permitted to enter a State for some local reason may find themselves confined airside if they have to deplane following a technical diversion.

[Edited 2013-02-20 23:18:07]
 
AR385
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:42 am

Quoting FreshSide3 (Reply 16):
There was an Iranian plane that was flying over Israel, a few years back, that had to make an emergency landing of some sort. Don't remember all the details....but I think it ended up landing at an Israeli military base, instead of at TLV. Anyone else remember this? Anyone have any details?

I really do not appreciate it when I mention something in the threads here and then I get the SOURCE? or the THAT CAN´T BE TRUE reprimand. So forgive me for saying that what you are relating does not seem feasible as the way I understand it is that even Western planes can be forbidden to fly over Israeli territory unless special provisions are made. So, I do not see how an Iranian aircraft would have found itself over Israel. At least for the last 35 or so years.

I would tend to lean to this:

Quoting 777way (Reply 23):
impossible, unless it was that hijacking incident involving an Iranian spy for israel who took the plane there some twenty years or more ago, it landed at a military base


[Edited 2013-02-21 00:01:00]
 
flyhigh@tom
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:16 am

Almost all of the ME carriers transit thru Iranian airspace when flying to destinations in the northern hemisphere.
Plus add to the fact that IKA actually is a destination for QR, makes diversion to that airport a bit easier due to presence of company ground handling personal.

every time i have flown to Iran destinations i have found the people very friendly   
 
aloges
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting esdex (Reply 24):
In short, an aircraft in distress needs to be provided necessary assistance, but persons not permitted to enter a State for some local reason may find themselves confined airside if they have to deplane following a technical diversion.

And that is that.  Very few people in the positions to do so are interested in aggravating the already difficult circumstances of an emergency diversion in a foreign (or worse, enemy) country. When people run into trouble through no fault of their own, most officials become very accommodating towards them and the people trying to help.

Something to warm your heart: Israeli stuck in Iran made friends
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ly7e7
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:16 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):

Iranian pax 707 was hijacked to Israel in 1995.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...er-iranian-woman-israeli-officials
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jfk787nyc
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting liftsifter (Reply 9):

Ask yourself what an Israeli citizen is doing in Doha anyways..

US citizens are allowed into Iran but are not given the crew de la crem treatment that they're used to getting while entering most countries.

Qatar and the UAE are the two largest trade partners for the ordinary Israeli citizens - Diamonds Anyone??
 
777way
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:51 pm

But Qatar had shut down Israeli trade mission office after Gaza raid, Oman was the ither place that was in the process of befriending Israel, never heard of UAE.
 
Gonzalo
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:22 pm

Quoting ushermittwoch (Reply 18):
Obviously you are trying to politicize the issue since you are making up asanine claims about a country you obviously know less than nothing about.

No I don't. I'm doing legitimate questions about how some citizens of certain nationalities could be treated in a place where the authorities are openly hostile to their home country. Obviously there is the need of a reason for that hostility, that reason could be politic, racial, economy / trade, or the adverse result in the last soccer match, but the reason is there, and making questions about how the things work under this circumstances should not be considered as a political tendency in favor of A or B.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 15):
Perhaps you are confusing them with North Korea. There has not been a Nuclear Test in Iran nor do they threaten nations the way North Korea does. I have never actually heard any of their leaders threaten invasion of anywhere.

Iran is suffering international sanctions because they have a nuclear program. Probably they didn't perform any "nuclear test" in the way of large explosions, but the development of a nuclear program is the main reason for the sanctions actually in-force.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 15):
I would imagine due to the sanctions, Iran might "impound" an aircraft one day. If its a BA, UA or AA flight. They might take an airframe since sanctions prevent purchasing planes for civilian purposes. They would in essence foreclose on it in response to sanctions. They UK impounded a Mahan Air 747 so its not far fetched.

That's one of the reasons I was doing some questions here. The humor of the leaders in this nations changes from one day to another. I doubt they will start an open confrontation with other country by impounding a plane, but never say never...

G.
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802flyguy
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:47 pm

This thread remind of the story from a couple of years back of an NW (maybe DL) flight on the BOM-AMS route on 24 Dec; the controller in THR wished the crew and flight "Merry Christmas".
 
jumpjets
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 15):
They UK impounded a Mahan Air 747 so its not far fetched.

i don't recall any 747s being impounded in the UK but certainly an A310 was impounded in Birmingham, but I think that was as a result of action taken by an AAIB accident inspector.

The Mahan plane had approached BHX dangerously low and was probably regarded as an 'incident' which the AAIB has appropriate powers to investigate.

So not a politically motivated impounding.
 
rfields5421
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 31):
about how some citizens of certain nationalities could be treated in a place where the authorities are openly hostile to their home country.

No matter what their views or relationships with a particular nation - leaders worldwide recognize the downside of taking action against anyone on an aircraft which comes into their airport under emergency conditions.

The only way I could conceive of a passenger or crew member being detained is if there was an internationally recognized criminal warrant out for that person - before the flight began.

The reality of what happens is the nation - Iran in this example - politely pretends that US or Israeli citizens were never in their country.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 31):
The humor of the leaders in this nations changes from one day to another. I doubt they will start an open confrontation with other country by impounding a plane, but never say never...

And impounding one aircraft will result almost immediately in a complete air travel embargo against that nation.

It will result in that leader/ those leaders being unable to travel to diplomatic events.

More importantly, it will like result in the seizure of that leader's hidden accounts in various countries.

There are simply some lines these people cannot cross. If there is a serious concern that those leaders might cross those lines - then the point is moot, because civilian airliners will not be flying over that nation.

[Edited 2013-02-21 09:32:25]
 
777way
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:36 am

^ These people? it applies to any one in the wolrd not just Iranians or people from that region, do not try the them vs us (west) crap attitude, because if THEY want to they can do anything regardless of the consequences.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:03 am

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 31):
No I don't. I'm doing legitimate questions about how some citizens of certain nationalities could be treated in a place where the authorities are openly hostile to their home country. Obviously there is the need of a reason for that hostility, that reason could be politic, racial, economy / trade, or the adverse result in the last soccer match, but the reason is there, and making questions about how the things work under this circumstances should not be considered as a political tendency in favor of A or B.

Not buying it. You have been here long enough to have noticed that this question comes up every few months. With the same results. Level headed posters state the facts. People like you continue their bickering and try to paint Iran as a terrible country.

You might have read above that the US is in fact the only country that acts petty when it comes to emergencies (e.g. the AC flight from Cuba). So there is your answer.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
aloges
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RE: QR Plane Diverts To Teheran - Questions

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:07 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 34):
These people? it applies to any one in the wolrd not just Iranians or people from that region

Oh please, that's exactly what he was saying:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 34):
leaders worldwide recognize the downside of taking action against anyone on an aircraft which comes into their airport under emergency conditions.
(...)
There are simply some lines these people cannot cross.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.

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