flaps30
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:45 am

Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's that fly in/out of LAS several times a day? I know they are some sort of govt aircraft taking people to secure areas of the desert (area 54?). But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?
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Braniff747SP
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:49 am

Yeah--they are called 'Janet' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(airline)) and they are run by EG&G. They go out to Area 51 and related areas.
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n7371f
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:56 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 1):
Yeah--they are called 'Janet' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janet_(airline)) and they are run by EG&G. They go out to Area 51 and related areas.

I'm nearly certain that EG&G no longer operates the planes - it's the Department of Defense now.

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's

They are 737-600's.
 
PHX787
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
I'm nearly certain that EG&G no longer operates the planes - it's the Department of Defense now.

I heard they sold the contract a few years back.

Now about their ops - how are their pilots trained, etc ?

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
They are 737-600's.

The only US -registered 736s .
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n901wa
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:13 am

I remember seeing EG&Gs 737-200 in Westerns Hanger in Check as a kid. I asked my Dad, why does those 737 not have the W and only the Red Stripe. They had Western N nbrs. He said they were based in Las Vegas, and belonged to EG&G. They were painted that way so they could blend in with WALs normal 737 ops at LAS. Fast Fwd, I always get a kick when I see the -600 painted in a Simi Western Paint Job. I can hear my Dad telling me the story like it was yesterday. And I still see them in Check, but in a much Bigger Hangar then the one I was in as a Kid  
 
WesternA318
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:19 am

Quoting n901wa (Reply 4):
I remember seeing EG&Gs 737-200 in Westerns Hanger in Check as a kid. I asked my Dad, why does those 737 not have the W and only the Red Stripe. They had Western N nbrs. He said they were based in Las Vegas, and belonged to EG&G. They were painted that way so they could blend in with WALs normal 737 ops at LAS. Fast Fwd, I always get a kick when I see the -600 painted in a Simi Western Paint Job. I can hear my Dad telling me the story like it was yesterday. And I still see them in Check, but in a much Bigger Hangar then the one I was in as a Kid

LOVE that tale...I adore seeing these birds in LAS any time I get the chance to see them...
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Braniff747SP
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
EG&G

Well, they don't exist anymore; it's URS Corporation... I still call it EG&G though.

I just checked the Wikipedia page, it says it's run by URS.

Running a couple of the regs through the FAA registry shows that the airplanes are, indeed, owned by the Dept. of the Air Force. Who operates them is unknown.
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Viscount724
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 2):
Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
Does anyone have any good info on the mysterious red and white 733's

They are 737-600's.

I believe they are all ex-Air China 736s. They replaced 732s several years ago.

There have been many threads on the "Janet" operation.

[Edited 2013-02-20 19:24:42]
 
B757Forever
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Who operates them is unknown.

They may be operated by aliens...  
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Braniff747SP
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting B757forever (Reply 8):

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Who operates them is unknown.

They may be operated by aliens...

Oh, I'm sure.

Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

True story,    
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n7371f
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:38 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
Now about their ops - how are their pilots trained, etc ?

Delta trains the flight attendants and has the maintenance contract on the 736's. In fact I just saw one the other week at ATL TOC. I would assume the pilots are also trained by DL but I've never heard anything definitive.

About the flight attendants...they are sworn to secrecy. During recurring training in ATL with DL, a trainer told me she tried to get info out of them but they kept their lips sealed. I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.
 
blueflyer
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:58 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.

I can't imagine that what they might have to say would be that interesting. I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Janet passengers are the cooks, cleaners, clerical workers, etc... The support personnel even the most secret facility needs to run effectively.
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United_fan
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:24 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?

Yes,with a prefix of 'WWW' .
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rfields5421
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:50 pm

Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW772

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW211

Remember these are commute to work, commute home flights - so they fly a lot in the early am and late pm.

The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW474

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51
 
fcogafa
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:58 pm

I have always wondered why they don't operate out of Nellis to keep the operation much more out of view of the public...or maybe it is to maintain the idea of something exciting and out of this world going on, rather than the boring truth.
 
AY-MD11
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
Quoting flaps30 (Thread starter):
But my main question is can these aircraft be tracked by Flightaware?
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW772

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW211

Remember these are commute to work, commute home flights - so they fly a lot in the early am and late pm.

The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/WWW474

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

Looks like they file flight plan to KTNX but go to area 51 if you look the flightaware flight path.  
 
txjim
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I've even heard loose talk here in LAS that the crew is given lie detector tests regularly to make sure they're not loose lips about what's being discussed by passengers on the flights to/from Area 51 and Palmdale.

I can't imagine that what they might have to say would be that interesting. I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.



Anyone discussing classified information outside of a secure facility would face consequences, likely the suspension or loss of their clearance. Anyone overhearing classified discussions is obliged to report the incident.

This is taken very seriously.
 
luv2fly
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:44 pm

How long are the actual flights? I would imagine the crews really just on board for safety and not any service to speak of.
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rfields5421
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):

The regular consistent nature of the flights doesn't mesh well with the sporadic tempo of a military base ops. Also, many, if not most of the people on the Janet flights are contractors with no need to have access to the AFB.

While all these people have high security clearances, their access to information is limited to only what is necessary for their job.

Though much of the work done at the various locations in the restricted areas is military in focus, it is really a civilian operation. Uniformed military don't do the R&D that is most of the focus.

Lastly, the 24 hour operation at LAS actually provides more flexibility and capability than an AFB in these times of reduced military manpower and operations.
 
duckredbeard
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:15 pm

I've performed maintenance on some of their planes. For some reason the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder are not installed when we get them. FMS databases are also empty. Hmmmm.....
 
26point2
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:00 pm

Saw an amusing program on American cable TV recently with some grainy footage of the Janet terminal at LAS.

I don't recall the name of the show but a totally contrived UFO/Area 51 "detective" program. The "discovery" of the "top secret" Janet terminal was made out to be an amazing find by the crew. Of course the film footage was some long-distance jumpy shots taken from well outside the secure area. Very laughable but I don't doubt a few people fell for it.

This terminal is situated among the private plane FBO's on the west side of KLAS. Have been taxiing past it for many years.
 
rampbro
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting B757forever (Reply 8):
They may be operated by aliens...

Aliens who know how to dial down a radar cross-section  
 
khpn
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:55 pm

When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...
 
AY-MD11
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:11 pm

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

When playing fsx beware of the low flying ufo! 
 
blueflyer
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting txjim (Reply 16):
Anyone discussing classified information outside of a secure facility would face consequences, likely the suspension or loss of their clearance.

I'm not saying they don't know anything confidential or don't take that knowledge seriously, what I am saying is that there are varying degrees of confidentiality and confidential information, and I highly doubt the Janet passengers belong in the highest tiers.

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51

Planes headed for Groom Lake fly about 5,000 ft lower than those going to TTR due to the short distance.
I do believe that at one time, and perhaps even now still, flights used different call signs for civilian and military ATC.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
How long are the actual flights?

From 30 to 60 minutes depending on destination. There are a myriad maps online showing the various locations inside the Nevada Test & Training Range. It is big, but not that big and close to LAS, any point can be reached in an hour or less.
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Italianflyer
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:14 pm

Here is an alleged Janet skd from 2011. Obviously I can not verify the validity:

http://www.dreamlandresort.com/info/janet_schedule_detail.html

I saw a F/A job posting last year and lets just say...it was hardly an open house in the Swan Room at the Ramada Airport-South type event. IIRC you needed to complete an SF86 clearance application and be able to hold SCI ( Sensitive Compartmented Information) authorization.
 
iowaman
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Janet passengers are the cooks, cleaners, clerical workers, etc... The support personnel even the most secret facility needs to run effectively.

Most of the "less important" people use to ride buses up there. I suspect that is still the case but I have no idea. It's about a 3-4 hour ride each way by ground. The weather is usually good but can be dicey in the higher elevations this time of the year (there was quite a bit of snow in the TNX area with this last storm system).

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
The only place I've seen a Janet flight on flightaware is to/ from Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) - though from the tracks some flights obviously land at and originate from Groom Lake.

I've seen them on occasion to PMD as well. Here is one from last weekend on LAS-PMD:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/W...1/history/20130216/1515Z/KLAS/KPMD

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):
I have always wondered why they don't operate out of Nellis to keep the operation much more out of view of the public...or maybe it is to maintain the idea of something exciting and out of this world going on, rather than the boring truth.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
Lastly, the 24 hour operation at LAS actually provides more flexibility and capability than an AFB in these times of reduced military manpower and operations.

   The flights usually get priority ATC handling and as you said they have a "non-flashy" terminal away from everything else. I listen to LAS Tower on occasion and it seems to me their pilots usually sound senior on the radio - I wonder if some of them are ex-Air Force.

LAS is also probably a quicker drive for most of the employees and contractors that go up there. LSV is on the far northeast side of town where as LAS is kind of south central in the middle of the valley. Much easier to access LAS from Henderson and Summerlin (the nicer middle class areas) than LSV.

Quoting n7371f (Reply 10):
Delta trains the flight attendants and has the maintenance contract on the 736's. In fact I just saw one the other week at ATL TOC. I would assume the pilots are also trained by DL but I've never heard anything definitive
Quoting duckredbeard (Reply 19):
I've performed maintenance on some of their planes. For some reason the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder are not installed when we get them. FMS databases are also empty. Hmmmm.....

Both those statements are very interesting thanks for sharing.

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
When watching a tv show about area 51, I remember seeing that the flights are always filed to TNX but then the flight plans are cancelled once within visual range of area 51.. also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

   They also change the call sign as well on flight simulator. I'm assuming this is what they do in real life but who knows.
 
cschleic
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 20):
Saw an amusing program on American cable TV recently with some grainy footage of the Janet terminal at LAS.

I don't recall the name of the show but a totally contrived UFO/Area 51 "detective" program. The "discovery" of the "top secret" Janet terminal was made out to be an amazing find by the crew. Of course the film footage was some long-distance jumpy shots taken from well outside the secure area. Very laughable but I don't doubt a few people fell for it.

This terminal is situated among the private plane FBO's on the west side of KLAS. Have been taxiing past it for many years.

Yes, and not that it's visible from many of the strip and non-strip hotels nearby, either.
 
 
rfields5421
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:45 pm

Quoting iowaman (Reply 26):
I wonder if some of them are ex-Air Force.

Ex-military would be likely to be easier to pass the required security clearances.
 
JONC777
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:55 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 9):
Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

True story,

LOL, im not sure the words mythical and true story belong together. .  

It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!
 
vikkyvik
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:41 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):
LOL, im not sure the words mythical and true story belong together. .

It's true that it's a myth.  
Quoting 26point2 (Reply 20):
Saw an amusing program on American cable TV recently with some grainy footage of the Janet terminal at LAS.

I don't recall the name of the show but a totally contrived UFO/Area 51 "detective" program. The "discovery" of the "top secret" Janet terminal was made out to be an amazing find by the crew. Of course the film footage was some long-distance jumpy shots taken from well outside the secure area. Very laughable but I don't doubt a few people fell for it.

This terminal is situated among the private plane FBO's on the west side of KLAS. Have been taxiing past it for many years.

Indeed, it's not exactly difficult to see and take photos:

I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
SAAFNAV
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 9):

Also, instead of Jet A, the planes run on a mythical revolutionary power source that the government is hiding from us all in order to sustain the ideals of biopower.

Right along with technology to create Chemtrails on demand?

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):

It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!

Over such a short distance, I hardly think winglets would make a big difference.
On-board Direction Consultant
 
flightsimer
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):

Winglets are not certified on the -600's.

Quoting khpn (Reply 22):
also, there is a mission in fsx that does this exact thing, you fly the flight plan to TNX but once you get close to area 51 and have the field in sight you "divert" there...

There is also a mission with the CRJ IIRC, in which u fly to the secret mountain airbase. However, I can't remember if the mission was based in the US or not.

This too is partly true as many believe they have moved the majority of really really secret stuff out of Area 51 to a new underground base in Utah or Colorado ( can't remember which), due to a decrease in "UFO sightings" in the area.

[Edited 2013-02-21 13:02:38]
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aklrno
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:24 pm

Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):
It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!

When you are in cruise for only about 20 minutes it is possible that the additional weight of winglets does not offset the cost of the winglets and the cruise fuel saving.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 27):
Yes, and not that it's visible from many of the strip and non-strip hotels nearby, either.
 

A few months ago I was on the top floor of the Mandalay Bay Tower at 5:15 or so watching all the Janet planes arriving and unloading. That huge parking lot next to the terminal emptied quickly.

I was at a meeting at Nellis AFB a few years ago and mentioned Area 51. The Air Force people all stopped talking for a moment, then realized it was OK to talk about these days. At one time saying "Area 51" could get you a court martial.
 
sunilgupta
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
I'm sure the employees with the most access to confidential information do not commute daily or even weekly, and go in and out far more discreetly, for example by road to Creech or Nellis and flying in to Groom Lake from there.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out the Janet passengers are the cooks, cleaners, clerical workers, etc... The support personnel even the most secret facility needs to run effectively.

That makes no sense   Engineers, cleaners and everyone in-between fly on those flights.

Quoting fcogafa (Reply 14):
I have always wondered why they don't operate out of Nellis to keep the operation much more out of view of the public...or maybe it is to maintain the idea of something exciting and out of this world going on, rather than the boring truth.

Because many/most(?) are civilians and may not have access to Nellis. Besides, you can see everything at Nellis just as you can at LAS  

My favorite program was about the UFO watchers who saw the landing lights of the 732s going into Groom Lake. They were positioned directly in front of the aircraft approach so from their perspective it looked as though the lights were hovering and slowly descending - their conclusion: an alien ship test flight... LOL!

Sunil
 
dc1030cf
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:44 pm

This link gives the current N numbers of these DOD "Civilian Airliners"

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...&type=737&fleet=7053&fleetStatus=1

Looks like these plane were at one time all GECAS birds, two of them came from CA lease return. Using the tail numbers and then check with FlightAware will get some interesting returns.
 
twincessna340a
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:52 pm

This site has good info, old pictures though (still 732s and King Airs)

http://www.lazygranch.com/janair.htm
 
JAGflyer
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Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:22 pm

This Area 51 (Tonopah/Groom Lake) place is rumoured to be the cite of investigations into alien/extraterrestrial life or is it a development centre for defence products (missiles/bombs)? I highly doubt the US would have such a large fleet of aircraft for investigations relating to extraterrestrials. Before you say they are real, I do not believe at all in aliens or people from other planets. According to Wikipedia it seems like the Groom Lake (which is actually a very dry field) is used for testing different defence mechanisms. That is very plausible but aliens, nah.
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
Rdh3e
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 37):
or is it a development centre for defence products (missiles/bombs)?

It's a Department of Defense research facility. It is where the SR-71 Blackbird predecessor was developed as well as many other top secret projects.
 
Viscount724
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:42 pm

Quoting aklrno (Reply 33):
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 29):
It annoys me that these things dont have winglets on them to at least conserve fuel considering how much there flown. But, the military doesnt give a flip about spending!

When you are in cruise for only about 20 minutes it is possible that the additional weight of winglets does not offset the cost of the winglets and the cruise fuel saving.

Winglets have never been certified for the 737-600, probably because there are so few likely to ever be modified that the certification costs couldn't be justified.
 
Alnicocunife
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:29 am

Just do not make them angry!

Oops............. http://www.hark.com/clips/zcyslvkwbr-you-made-me-angry
 
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7BOEING7
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Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting dc1030cf (Reply 35):
Looks like these plane were at one time all GECAS birds, two of them came from CA lease return. Using the tail numbers and then check with FlightAware will get some interesting returns.

The -600's were all initially leased to XIN (Air China Southwest Branch) the -200's were mainly T-43A conversions with one coming from PWA.
 
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a36001
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:17 am

This may seem a silly question, but once the flights leave LAS, how do they gain access to the restricted air space around the base with out being shot down or what ever they do? Is there are special transponder code or call sign? I mean how do the ATC guys at Groom Lake know the flight is a Janet flight?  
 
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n901wa
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:00 am

Checking some WAL -200 Numbers. The ExWestern Janet 737-247s were N4508W, N4510W and N4515W. Funny how N4529W was assigned to a WAL 737-247 and a PWA 737-275. Sorry, but the picture is bad, and was shot from a moving bus. Some -200/T43A stored at DM.

 
aklrno
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The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:24 am

Quoting a36001 (Reply 42):

This may seem a silly question, but once the flights leave LAS, how do they gain access to the restricted air space around the base with out being shot down or what ever they do? Is there are special transponder code or call sign? I mean how do the ATC guys at Groom Lake know the flight is a Janet flight?  

Weren't transponders an offshoot of IFF devices meant to solve exactly that problem?

In any case they could always send up an F-15 or F-16 from Nellis to look at it if they are in doubt. Most of the flight time is spent flying over absolutely nothing so there is no rush. More interesting is how do they get through Red Flag exercises that surround Area 51? It gets busy there. A few times a year they operate full scale air battles over the Nevada Test Range. At least they aren't setting off any nukes these days.
 
flightsimer
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RE: The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:06 am

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 37):
According to Wikipedia it seems like the Groom Lake (which is actually a very dry field

Nit picking, I know, but its not a very dry field. Its the site of an old dried up lake.
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rfields5421
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RE: The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting a36001 (Reply 42):
This may seem a silly question, but once the flights leave LAS, how do they gain access to the restricted air space around the base with out being shot down or what ever they do? Is there are special transponder code or call sign? I mean how do the ATC guys at Groom Lake know the flight is a Janet flight?

Both the civilian ATC and the military ATC will track the flight from origin to destination into the restricted airspace. The civilian ATC cannot grant clearance to enter some of the restricted areas. For those clearance has to be requested from the appropriate agency - which is often DOE for some areas. Once the clearance has been given - the exact requirements are communicated to the flight crew.

Believe me - they know it is the approved flight.

These "Janet" flights occur at least a dozen times a day. The process is rigid, but well understood and with adequate safeguards to prevent an unauthorized aircraft from spoofing a Janet flight.


Any unapproved aircraft straying into the restricted airspace would be intercepted by fighters from Nellis and escorted to a landing zone if it did not respond to ATC directions immediately.

Military pilots from other bases at Nellis for exercises have been grounded for straying into the restricted areas for which they are not approved.


By and large the restricted airspace isn't covering any area with day to day activity which must be shielded from uncleared eyes.

Folks familiar with the area know when something is occuring out on the ranges, because Janet flights will be cancelled, along with the other DOE and military logistics flights in the normal day to day flight activity.

If you are not familiar with the charts and area - R-4808N which covers the Groom Lake airfield / Area 51 base - also covers the Yucca Flats nuclear test range - Area 1, Area 2, Area 3, Area 4, Area 6, Area 7, Area 8, Area 9 and Area 10. Some 739 known nuclear test explosions were carried out in that range.
 
Confuscius
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RE: The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:41 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 7):
There have been many threads on the "Janet" operation.

Can't find one on the trip report forum. I wonder how are F, J, Y and B fares and service compared to other airlines?
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JAGflyer
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RE: The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:20 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 45):

When was Groom Lake actually a lake? How long ago did it dry up?
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rfields5421
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RE: The Mysterious Red & White 736's At LAS

Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:50 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 48):
When was Groom Lake actually a lake? How long ago did it dry up?

There might have been some water on the 'lake' in 2005. Several of the dry lakes in the Death Valley and southern Nevada region got enough rain for water on the lakes that year, which dried up again quickly.

Edwards AFB is another similar dry lake converted to military usage.

However, the basic dry lake phenomena in that region is much older than human history. Part of the entire southwest US, northern Mexico desert region which extends across much of the states of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico and Texas.