psa188
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Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:12 am

I just read a blog where the writer got booted off a UA flight for taking a photo of his seat, which apparently violates some lame photo policy UA has in its inflight magazine.

I didn't know UA has a photo policy.

The story is here:
http://upgrd.com/matthew/thrown-off-...es-flight-for-taking-pictures.html

It's an outrage that the FA got all pissy about taking a harmless photo on a plane. Unfortunately the use of the t-word probably ruined the situation, but the FA's initial behaviour was out of line. The guy should try filling out the complaint at http://www.untied.com/
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:33 am

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
The guy should try filling out the complaint at http://www.untied.com/

This person is in the running with the Middle East and many senior AA crew for longest running grudge ever.

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):

It's an outrage that the FA got all pissy about taking a harmless photo on a plane.

I'm surprised the captain not only cared but doubled down.

[Edited 2013-02-20 20:34:24]
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:35 am

Quoting psa188 (Thread starter):
It's an outrage that the FA got all pissy about taking a harmless photo on a plane.

In my opinion, he really pushed it using the t-word when attempting to offer his business card and explanation to the FA later. Sometimes you need to know when to drop it, and realize you aren't going to make a bad situation any better.

I haven't been all that impressed with the blogger in question anyway, so I'll leave my comments there. There's a rather long thread on FT about the blog post, too.
International Homo of Mystery
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:38 am

Sad that people are petty sometimes. Especially over something so menial. I take that particular photo constantly whenever I fly up front. Never had any make an issue of it.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
jayeshrulz
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:02 am

UA crews do have a little attitude. Ive noticed it too fairly well when I used to work in BOM airport. Its a hit or miss. Sometimes you get extreme good crew, sometimes you get husbands who fought with their wives and have come onboard  

Nevertheless, UA owes him a big apology, and I guess UA can be sued for that? 
Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
 
catiii
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:10 am

The UA policy is contradictory and, thusly, stupid. UA maintains a Facebook, Instagram, and twitter page in which customers are encouraged to share photos of their UA travel experience. Now how does that square with thei posted policy in their magazine, which by the way no,one ever reads. If this were such an important policy, then why aren't any announcements ever made reminding pax about the no photo rule?
 
OB1504
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:30 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
In my opinion, he really pushed it using the t-word when attempting to offer his business card and explanation to the FA later. Sometimes you need to know when to drop it, and realize you aren't going to make a bad situation any better.

The flight attendant was definitely overreacting (especially considering the negative publicity that this will get for UA), but the passenger ended up digging his own grave by blurting out "terrorist" on a flight to the Middle East area.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:02 am

I'm with the blogger. He's an elite status high value customer.
This FA is probably just shitty he called her out on her actions, then embarrassed (obviously by running away,
if she firmly believed she was in the right she wouldn't have felt the need to hide) by her obvious over reaction.

This kind of thing shouldn't be tolerated. This is the exact kind of customer any company wants to retain. A
high value one that is also a high repeat customer. Now after this experience, lets say the guy decides to fly
on a long flight up the front on a carrier like Etihad, Emirates, singapore or even Thai? It ain't rocket science to
know what happens next. United permanently loses the customer where there is a choice. It's staff like this, who have forgotten that these people pay their wages ultimately, that are the dead wood in the system.
 
ba319-131
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:30 am

Now he should not have used the T word, that was a stupid move, that aside, it just shows how Americans have become scared of their own shadow, it's really quite sad this once great nation now views every move by others as something potentially dangerous.

I could not live like that.
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AS739BSI
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:31 am

As soon as you mention the word terrorist and the Captain will probably trust his flight crew more than a frequent flier, he kind of dug his own grave as soon as he mentioned that. A flight attendant on UA responded to his posting and mentioned how pre-flight that the crew is strained due to preparation for departure. It probably would have been best to deal with the incident after arrival in Istanbul. Just my 2 cents.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:42 am

That ridiculous photo policy - no matter how they may interprete it - and the behavior of these crew members are two reasons why I will not consider flying UA again. What a shame.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
harmonium
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:29 am

Isn't it ridiculous that you cannot even mention the word 'terrorist' anymore? I certainly think so. Come on, it's not like(according to his statement) he was yelling about terrorism and bombs throughout the aircraft. From what I can read he quietly explained the situation and his reasons for taking photos on board. I don't think I would've even cared about the use of that particular word in that context. Given, we only have his side of the story right now. Would be interesting to hear from fellow passengers or crew - the latter which is highly unlikely.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:43 am

Quoting AS739BSI (Reply 9):
that the crew is strained due to preparation for departure.

They're strained simply by doing the job that they are trained and paid for? What a pathetic excuse. The FA could simply have said, "I'll come back after take off and we can talk about it then." If the blogger's version of events are correct and the FA did lie, that can not be justified by being a bit flustered because you have to check the overhead lockers are shut and someone's iPhone is off.

And even if he did use the word terrorist, does your average terrorist say, "I am a terrorist: here is my business card."? Simply training crew to react to certain words taken out of context is stupid. Listen to the whole sentence and it becomes clear that a person isn't a threat. No, if the blogger's version is true, this is yet another example of the abuse of power by someone who doesn't like to be questioned.

Someone once remarked that the problem with common sense is that it isn't all that common. The blogger showed a lack of sense in choosing to discuss the matter at that point pre departure. The FA showed it by choosing to escalate rather than defuse.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
toobz
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:52 am

After living in the US for over 20 years I've come to realize and accept that there is a huge book of words one should not use. Ironic being the land of the free and freedom of speech. Far from. This is another example of a senior dinosaur FA using pity power holding techniques.
 
RIXrat
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:27 am

Even eliminating the word "terrorist," don't many of us when going through the airport and security and then putting up with half-read edicts by the airlines, feel like we are being terrorised?
 
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fca767
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:53 am

Quoting toobz (Reply 13):

After living in the US for over 20 years I've come to realize and accept that there is a huge book of words one should not use. Ironic being the land of the free and freedom of speech. Far from. This is another example of a senior dinosaur FA using pity power holding techniques.

Russia is land of the free
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:03 am

I thought about it, so what if he used the word terrorist. He didn't make a joke he was explaining himself. I think that he went out of his way to ensure that his actions WOULD'T be misconstrued by pulling her to the side after the initial confrontation.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:13 am

Flight Attendants don't want to dance with you or have conversations with you, they want you to sit down, shut up and do what they tell you to do. It's been like this since 9/11. AA can be just as brutal as UA is in this regard.
Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
vfw614
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:15 am

Fascinating how many fellow passengers have come forward in the comments' section of his blog, including the other guy who got a dressing down for taking a picture. While I took the report by the guy himself with a pinch of salt, the comments by fellow passengers seem to corroborate the story.

Honestly, FAs who feel that their main task is policing the aircraft by citing non-existing regulation and overinterpreting the company's T&C hidden somemwhere in the small print of the in-flight magazine (how about non-English speaking passengers, by the way?) have missed their job and they should consider working as a deputy with the local sheriff rather than in a customer service function. Yes, they are there for the safety of the plane, but this task should be understood as part of their job as a customer service representative. All too often nowadays rude and unprofessional behavior and the lack of common sense is excused with the "security" / "9/11" mantra. Quite honestly, if FAs are still so traumatized about 9/11 that they kick into full SWAT mode when the t-word is used in a completely inncoent context, they should better do a desk job on the ground.
 
rwsea
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:36 am

Completely unacceptable. It doesn't matter if any "buzzword" was used by the passenger. He was trying to explain himself and establish a rapport with the crew. Busy or not with pre-take off activities, the FAs are first and foremost in a service position and need to conduct themselves with professionalism and honesty.

Personally, my view is that once they knew about the photos and the blog, they just didn't want to deal with the guy anymore. When you know that your lazy and apathetic service is going to be documented for the world to see, wouldn't you want to get rid of the "problem" too?!
 
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fca767
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:09 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 17):
Flight Attendants don't want to dance with you or have conversations with you, they want you to sit down, shut up and do what they tell you to do. It's been like this since 9/11. AA can be just as brutal as UA is in this regard.

Then they lose their customers...i want a dance with f/a's and i'll go to singapore, thai for that
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:21 am

Quote:
Indeed, the terrorists have won when 11.5 years after the attacks U.S. citizens are scared of a camera onboard an airplane.

I think this is pretty much the moral of this story.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
ltbewr
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:48 am

I could understand not allowing pictures without permission of anywhere near the cockpit area or of crew members for security reasons (UA lost 2 planes in 9/11) and not taking pictures when electronic items cannot be used during flight. F/A's and other crew may want no pictures for personal security and privacy reasons. UA may also have this ban to prevent the collection of proprietary information for use by competitors in the way they have their planes set up and as to security procedures. Also banning pictures prevents 'evidence' of alleged bad service, annoying other pax with camera flashes and those that want privacy, not wanting their picture taken without their permission.

Yes, it may be a stupid rule and could use some reasonable revision, I am quite sure many take pictures without any hassle or discipline by the F/A's, but some may see the policy as so absolute and their job to be strict as to it to keep their jobs, looking like a hero to their bosses.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:49 am

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 22):

  

Probably United has the no picture policy so no competitor can take a picture and make a better seat. Oh wait, it's too late.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:35 pm

They can make rules as much as they like, these rules have to hold up with common law. There was a similar issue in Traons Magazine a couple of months ago about cops approaching train watchers and trying to forbid them making pictures. They have no legal reason, all it needs is politely (and stay polite) ask the officer "what have I done wrong".

Of course no one can take pictures of other persons but a simple seat? Totally unreasonable even to mention.
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bobnwa
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:38 pm

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 4):
Nevertheless, UA owes him a big apology, and I guess UA can be sued for that?

In the US, anyone can sue any company or person for any reason.
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:44 pm

The FA was extremely rude and power-tripping. (Probably had a bad attitude too.) I'll agree that saying the word "terrorist" in any context won't go over well, considering how paranoid some people who work in aviation are. Then the FA went to run and hide like a coward, after being rude to a passenger, really? Shameful.

As for the captain. Seriously? I understand taking the word of your crew, but threatening a passenger with "calling the police" and "don't make it worse for yourself" is over the top when he just wanted to explain himself. It's not that the captain cared anyway, he already made his mind up, but still.

This is incredibly bad customer service. I would have left them both with a piece of my mind.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:07 pm

Just remember there are three sides to any story. Your side, their side and the truth. Please keep in mind I am defending no one with that statement (for the flame throwers out there  Smile )

[Edited 2013-02-21 05:14:58]
You can't cure stupid
 
vfw614
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):

Of course no one can take pictures of other persons but a simple seat? Totally unreasonable even to mention.

I would say technically they can as it is their property and you are inside their aircraft, so they are exercising property rights (different story if you are taking pictures from someone else's property while out in the public). But once they did, the guy complied.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 27):
Just remember there are three sides to any story. Your side, their side and the truth.

As I mentioned earlier, in the comment's section of the blog a handful of fellow passengers have come forward who describe how the drama unfolded from their point of view. They all support that guys's story and all but one say the FA's behaviour was way over the top (only of one witnesses - while agreeing with the description of the situation - said the blogger should better have shut up instead of trying to talk to the FA).
 
PanHAM
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:38 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 28):
I would say technically they can as it is their property and you are inside their aircraft

the difference to a chemical plant for instance is, that they are a common carrier and you have paid for a ticket and are legally on board. Taking a picture is common practise for travellers documenting their journey. We have numerous examples under trip reports on this site.

My example with Trains was the same issue, a platform is the property of the transit authority or the railroad. As long as it is public access they cannot deny you taking pictures. It is a constitutional right in the US.
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A330
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:38 pm

As a current Widebody Captain, I feel compelled to participate in this topic.

1) There is NO SUCH THING as words that are forbidden to be told inside an aircraft. You can say bomb, terrorist whatever, as long as you do not claim to be one or have one with you etc.

2) There is NO SUCH THING as forbidding a normal passenger to make a picture of his seat or the aircraft. it might be mentioned somewhere in a magazine, but I do not care, as Captain I, and I do think nearly ALL of my colleguesmwould never disembark a passenger formtakingma picture.

3) I DO kick people out for being rude or agressive to the crew. No exceptions made.

By the way, please stop using this ridiculousm "t-word" it is terrorist .
Shiek!
 
avek00
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:42 pm

1. Tier 8 law school students and young graduates tend to be socially inept and forever feel the need to "prove" themselves and win every argument.

2. Start off any interaction with statements insinuating that you could harm my career through bad publicity and contacts with my bosses, and it likely won't end well for you.
Live life to the fullest.
 
p201055r
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:53 pm

So here we go again!

The decision was made by the aircraft captain - that's what he's paid to do - but seems to have been made having denied the complainant parity of input into the decision process.
Flight crew, whether "up front" or in the cabin are there for a purpose and as passengers we are obliged to follow their instructions when they impinge on the safety of the aircraft or other passengers, not because they make an unbalanced assessment of the activity of a passenger and then hide under the guise of security/safety/breach of the fine print.
We don't give up our rights as humans when we pay for an airline ticket and board the craft, nor do flight crew assume omnipotent status within that aluminium hull!
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:54 pm

You surrender certain "rights" when you board the airplane. You have agreed to follow all instructions given by the flight crew, no matter how silly or arbitrary they may seem. And no, I won't show you where it says blah-blah in my manual. Manuals are sensitive documents and are not for consumption by anyone other than an authorized company employee.

IF UA has a "no photography" rule then abide by it. We have had flight attendants murdered, stalked, raped, their families harrassed, cars burned and a mess of other problems so no, we would prefer NOT to be photographed unless my company requests it for their own use. Here's a hint--that name on my chest may or may not be my real name. The airline knows who is working on the flight. If you don't like the rule complain in an adult manner--directly to the company. The flight attendant didn't make the rule but she/he does have to enforce it. Doesn't mean we agree with or like it but we are held responsible if we let it slide.

Many airports around the world will not permit photography even for airline geeks like us who just like airplanes.

Make life easy for yourself and just follow the rules.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
kellmark
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:59 pm

If an airline is going to have a policy like this it should be plainly worded and understandable and not conflict with itself (you can photograph a "personal event", whatever that is), and be made clear to all passengers PRIOR to boarding (Not just in back of the on-line magazine, which often is never looked at and is not required reading nor is it part of the safety briefing). And it should be applied professionally and without discrimination. United did none of that here. If this went to a court, they would throw it out as a joke.

To assume that because someone is a frequent flyer they know the policy is ludicrous. And to throw off one person for violating it and not another who is also doing it just makes it worse. Also, the person did comply with the request to stop taking pictures. And they still throw him off.

I do agree about the passenger not using the actual word "terrorist" in this day and age. But still, he used it in a reasonable context in a non-threatening manner .The flight attendant over reacted. To have someone removed from a flight, especially one that is so long and is difficult to reroute for the passenger, it should be for behavior that is distinctly disruptive or threatening to the crew or other passengers. That wasn't the case here.

I personally think he was only guilty of maybe being a bit obnoxious by going back to the flight attendant and trying to tell her who he was, but so what. He was still in compliance with their policy once he was notified to stop taking pictures.

This was unprofessional.
 
rising
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 25):

Ignorantia juris non excusat- it is the general rule in the United States and most countries in Europe. Indeed, in this case, this is not a legal issue persay, but a policy dispute, and in a service business a company is more apt to be flexible. But just because you didn't know the policy, law, or regulation, does not always mean it is does not apply to you. That's been the basis of society in most Western countries since Roman times. We would live in chaos if it were not, as claimed ignorance of the policy, law, or regulation would excuse almost any behavior.

Now in regard to this thread, remarkably, almost no one has questioned the validity of this account, at least those who have replied to it. Someone posts an alleged incident on a blog, posts a link on here, and it is taken as the truth of the situation where the said employees are guilty until proven innocent. There are two sides to all stories and we have only been exposed to one side of an alleged incident. With technology today where anyone can post almost anything, it's prudent to really filter what you read and consider the source.

Let's just lastly go through United's photo policy. They do allow photos of "personal events" so if I am on my honeymoon to Bermuda, and ask the FA to take a picture of me and my new wife clinking champagne glasses sitting in First, that's covered. Pictures like this happen all the time. Then the next part, where they say you cannot take pictures of video of other passengers without their consent. Makes perfect sense. It's a privacy issue. Then they ban photos or video of employees, equipment, and procedures. Again, a privacy issue for employees, and a safety issue for the airline. This is not out of the ordinary and most companies do not allow customers to film their employees or procedures without consent. Then the last part, where you can not transmit the photo or video while on the flight. Again, nothing out of the ordinary there.

Bottom line, you can take photos on-board United Airlines flights. The key is to get permission. Next time, I would inform the crew of my intentions, and ask for the Captain's permission to take a photo if it is not of a personal nature.
If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
 
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Polot
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 28):

As I mentioned earlier, in the comment's section of the blog a handful of fellow passengers have come forward who describe how the drama unfolded from their point of view. They all support that guys's story and all but one say the FA's behaviour was way over the top (only of one witnesses - while agreeing with the description of the situation - said the blogger should better have shut up instead of trying to talk to the FA).

But you have to be careful with that. All of those commentators seemed to be friends (I don't find it to be a coincidence that all the commentators who were on the flight seemed to be in row 18) and frankly we have no clue if they were actually on the plane, their relationship to the blogger (he said he was upgraded, I wonder if he was originally suppose to be seated in row 18    ) or wanting to seem like they were in the know.
 
tp1040
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 8):
Now he should not have used the T word, that was a stupid move, that aside, it just shows how Americans have become scared of their own shadow, it's really quite sad this once great nation now views every move by others as something potentially dangerous.

I could not live like that.

You had better move.

EasyJet And The "Bomb" Word - Overreaction? (by GilesDavies Feb 18 2013 in Civil Aviation)
 
cambridgeflyer1
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:17 pm

Don't AA have some silly policy like this? I was at T3 Heathrow taking photos and an AA staff member came and told me to delete all the photos of AA planes. Whats the point?
 
vfw614
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:17 pm

Quoting Rising (Reply 36):
Ignorantia juris non excusat

You are mixing up things here - "Ignorantia juris non excusat" or "nemo censetur ignorare legem" as a legal principle dealing with the ignorance of the law relates to "leges" or "iuris", not to airline policies or terms & conditions. A law promulgated by a democratically elected rule-making body is totally different from a rule or a "policy" set up by a private person such as an airline. All this guy violated was a little note hidden somewhere in the in-flight magazine - and once notified of it, he stopped taking pictures. We could discuss if he was in breach of contract if the T&C of UA have a "no photo" clause somewhere with which he - unknowingly - agreed when booking the ticket, but apparently this is not the case. The "no photo" stuff is in their in-flight magazine no one is required to read. And even if you would read it, the wording is so vague that a court of law would find it difficult to justify action taken by UA based on that. Plus, then there is the legal concept of "non concedit venire contra factum proprium" - UA invites people to share their travel experiences with the public by uploading travel pictures.

As we are just at it: Even it the guy violated a law (again: which he did not), "ignorantia juris non excusat" has been limited by the US Supreme Court in Lambert vs. California. In order to be punished, there must be a probability that the accused party had knowledge of the law before committing the crime.

Bottom line for me is: UA is selling a service. The customers are paying the wages of the employees and keep the company afloat. Employees therefore should treat customers respectfully. The guy did nothing. He took a picture of his seat, was told to stop it and complied despite the blatant idiocy of the rule. He tried to explain and got booted off the flight, only to be accommodated by a UA ground agent on the next available connection. The action taken by the flight crew was uncalled for and the treatment of the customer was disrespectful. Nobody denies that the crew had the powers to do what they did. But if they exercise their powers, it does not automatically mean that they are right.

[Edited 2013-02-21 06:37:18]
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:21 pm

Okay, here's my issue with the whole use of the word terrorist. No one that actually is what X organization or Y government considers a terrorist is going to think of them selves as a terrorist, they're going to think of them selves as a person fighting for Z cause. I don't think, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, that any terrorist has ever actually identified themselves as a terrorist. So the fact that that word instantly sets off a red light in the mind of a flight attendant is absurd.
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SkyTeamTriStar
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:21 pm

Funny thing is that on other airlines, once you get above 10,000ft you can operate a video camera. Delta's in-flight magazine, SKY.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:28 pm

I almost got booted off an AA A300 in 2002 at JFK for the same thing...and THEY used the t word towards me...a WHITE, skinny 19-year old college student. It was really pathetic.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 34):
IF UA has a "no photography" rule then abide by it. We have had flight attendants murdered, stalked, raped, their

taking pictures of people, regardless if crew or passengers, can be with their consent only. This here was taking pictures of a seat.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 34):
You surrender certain "rights" when you board the airplane. You have agreed to follow all instructions given by the flight crew, no matter how silly or arbitrary they may seem.

I love this #1 No, you have agreed to the conditions of carriage which must be in line with common law. In your words, i would have to follow the instructions of a FA if he or she tells me to bark like a dog.



Quoting airtran737 (Reply 29):
Flying is a privilege, not a right.

I love this #2. This is my all time favorite, from the land of the free. We have fought through wars here in Europe to become the free society we are. Some people may be privileged, but a basic human right of moving around freely can never be a privilege. You pay for a ticket and you have the right to fly. The carrier must honor your ticket and he must compensate you if he cannot deliver the product, i.,e. your flight is delayed. That is a privilege you enjoy in states ruled by the law and not by company regulations.

Besides that, "privileges" are relics of feudal states, police states or other sorts of dictatorships.
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Lufthansa
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:32 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 34):
You surrender certain "rights" when you board the airplane. You have agreed to follow all instructions given by the flight crew, no matter how silly or arbitrary they may seem. And no, I won't show you where it says blah-blah in my manual. Manuals are sensitive documents and are not for consumption by anyone other than an authorized company employee.

Right, so this justifies bad service, and attitude to premium passengers who are the backbone of the company's revenue and ultimately pay your wages. What planet are you on? This sounds like an attitude from the soviet era Aeroflot! And you wonder why regular american travellers abandon US carriers for the likes of Emirates thai BA and Qantas like they are going out of fashion. Come on... its a service job... a service industry. Imagine if say, if a hotel chain like the four seasons took that attitude. If this woman worked for me...and I found out about this, she'd be fired. If I couldn't fire her, she's be reassigned a job cleaning toilets in the terminal. And before you ask, I've been on the front line with the public and I know what they can be like. This is no excuse.
 
rising
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 40):
A law promulgated by a democratically elected rule-making body is totally different from a rule or a "policy" set up by a private person such as an airline.

I would encourage you to read my full post.

Quoting Rising (Reply 36):
Indeed, in this case, this is not a legal issue persay, but a policy dispute, and in a service business a company is more apt to be flexible.

In regard to:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 40):
All this guy violated was a little note hidden somewhere in the in-flight magazine - and once notified of it, he stopped taking pictures.

Respectfully, again, I would encourage you to read my full post.

Quoting Rising (Reply 36):
There are two sides to all stories and we have only been exposed to one side of an alleged incident. With technology today where anyone can post almost anything, it's prudent to really filter what you read and consider the source.
If it doesn't make sense, it's because it's not true.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
I love this #2. This is my all time favorite, from the land of the free. We have fought through wars here in Europe to become the free society we are. Some people may be privileged, but a basic human right of moving around freely can never be a privilege. You pay for a ticket and you have the right to fly. The carrier must honor your ticket and he must compensate you if he cannot deliver the product, i.,e. your flight is delayed. That is a privilege you enjoy in states ruled by the law and not by company regulations.

Besides that, "privileges" are relics of feudal states, police states or other sorts of dictatorships.

  

Spot on! this attitude stinks! it forgets these people are CUSTOMERS and they are PAYING for a product!
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:41 pm

Guys, you are not in the land of the free on an airplane.

You guys are aviation experts on here...you know what aviation has been through in the last decade.

This isn't 1999 or 1989...it is the world in 2013.

You shouldn't be taking pictures of airplanes while in flight. You are going to arise suspicion. And if you say, "I have a right," that is fine...but if you get the wrong crew and they feel that you are a threat or even a question, they will remove you.

Flight Attendant comes up to me and says they feel someone is:
1. Suspicious
2. Not following instructions
3. Cursing
4. A distraction
5. Drunk

They are off the plane. Period. Discussion is over.

Many of you do not know that rights are waived when you choose to fly. You make that decision with your own free will.

Just an example. A curse word...you have every right to say that with free speech in the USA. On an airplane, it is considered a Level 1 Threat...and you can be escorted off for saying it.

As for photos: no one can take a photo of a crewmember performing his/her duties. That is a regulation. It is also vague enough to cover or not cover many things
 
vfw614
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:47 pm

Quoting Rising (Reply 46):
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 40):
A law promulgated by a democratically elected rule-making body is totally different from a rule or a "policy" set up by a private person such as an airline.

I would encourage you to read my full post.

I did. Please explain someone who holds a law degree and is licenced to practice law what the legal principle of "ignorantia juris non excusat" has to do with the case. It has nothing - and as you apparently agree, why do you mention it? You are really cracking a nut with a sledgehammer by doing so. The whole story is a customer service issue, not a legal issue. And we should discuss the customer service aspect.

[Edited 2013-02-21 06:53:16]
 
bueb0g
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RE: Booted Off A UA Flight For Taking A Photo

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:58 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 24):
They can make rules as much as they like, these rules have to hold up with common law.

Well they can't make a rule that is flat out illegal but they certainly don't have to allow constitutional rights, or apply rules that specifically relate to the citizen - government relationship (free speech etc) on their property.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
As long as it is public access they cannot deny you taking pictures. It is a constitutional right in the US.

No it isn't, as the inside of an aircraft is not a public place. It is not a constitutional right to take pictures inside an aircraft.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
This here was taking pictures of a seat.

UA can still disallow it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 44):
In your words, i would have to follow the instructions of a FA if he or she tells me to bark like a dog.

If those are the rules, and they're not explicitly illegal, then you accept them by flying. End of story.

Does seem like the FA massively overreacted but UA are well within their rights to create this (and any other) rule.
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