justinlee
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UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:01 am

Just find some data, surprisingly, UA has exceeded SQ and KE to become the largest foreign career in PEK. Is this kind of seasonal thing? I can't find the passenger data but UA really has a strong presence in the East Asia!

 
stylo777
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:07 am

this is also surprising to me, since they "only" have four daily flights (SFO, EWR, IAD, ORD).
on the other hand SQ and KE has less flights per day (SQ 24 weekly and KE 11 weekly).
 
Carpethead
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:52 am

Very surprising indeed.
I would have guessed either of the two Korean carriers just because of the close distance plus flights not only to ICN & PUS but also to some of the provincial cities too.
I would have thought Asiana might have made the list too.
 
justinlee
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 11:56 am

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 1):
on the other hand SQ and KE has less flights per day (SQ 24 weekly and KE 11 weekly).
SQ operate 4xdaily using a mixture of 777 and 333. KE operate 11xweekly PEK-ICN using wide-bodies and 1xdaily PEK-GMP using 739. Also 1xdaily 739 to Busan and 1xdaily 739 to Jeju. It seems that UA is really the biggest foreign player in PEK...

[Edited 2013-02-21 04:04:15]
 
johnclipper
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:45 pm

Technically, Dragonair is the largest foreign carrier.
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
jfk777
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:03 pm

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 1):
this is also surprising to me, since they "only" have four daily flights (SFO, EWR, IAD, ORD).
on the other hand SQ and KE has less flights per day (SQ 24 weekly and KE 11 weekly).

"omly" 4 daily flights ? well only to Peking; EWR. IAD, ORD and SFO. Shanghai also has 4 flights from LAX, SFO, ORD and Newark. 8 flights daily to the PRC by 777 or 744's.
 
aviationRob
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:25 pm

Good spot Carpethead - i just ran the OAG numbers and they show to following:

1) Air China 136,698
2) Dragonair 24,836
3) United Airlines 16,534
4) Asiana Airlines 14,890
5) Singapore Airlines 14,829
6) Korean Air 14,558
7) Hainan Airlines 12,304
8) China Southern Airlines 11,910
9) Emirates 11,802
10) Japan Airlines 9,618

Seems that Asiana is missing.

(these are non-stop, operating, scheduled passenger flights 18th Feb-24th Feb 2013)

Regards,
Rob
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 4):
Technically, Dragonair is the largest foreign carrier.

  

Not even "technically". Dragonair is not a PRC carrier, period.

United is the second largest international carrier at PEK. That, however, is still noteworthy  
Worked Hard, Flew Right
 
United1
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:42 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 7):
Not even "technically". Dragonair is not a PRC carrier, period.

Well technically Hong Kong is part PRC....  So suppose that is debatable....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
commavia
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:00 pm

United's presence in China really is quite impressive - 8 daily departures from the Mainland plus 6 daily departures from Hong Kong. Wow! That's what comes of having hubs (SFO, ORD, EWR) perfectly-tailored for China flying, plus a strong local sales network and a long history in the market.
 
Flighty
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 8):
Well technically Hong Kong is part PRC....  So suppose that is debatable....

Hong Kong to China is a little like Puerto Rico to the US. Neither one has a UN seat. Both are totally, by 100% consensus part of their mother nations.

But, both are considered "nations" by the Olympics and each competed in 2012 under their own separate flags!

For this analysis, I believe NYC-SJU is a domestic flight and HKG-PEK is also a domestic flight (yes, they have different passports). It is not fair to say Dragonair is a "foreign" carrier at Beijing.

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):

United's presence in China really is quite impressive - 8 daily departures from the Mainland plus 6 daily departures from Hong Kong. Wow! That's what comes of having hubs (SFO, ORD, EWR) perfectly-tailored for China flying, plus a strong local sales network and a long history in the market.


It seems their yield is higher to China than AA or Delta, but this is circumstantial.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting aviationRob (Reply 6):
Good spot Carpethead - i just ran the OAG numbers and they show to following:

1) Air China 136,698
2) Dragonair 24,836
3) United Airlines 16,534

I imagine if you rerun the numbers by ASM/ASKs, UA is much bigger than KA
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jayunited
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:33 pm

I think the location of these flights are key I'm not sure about the Washington D.C. area but all the other markets SFO, ORD, EWR, have a rather large Chinese population that continues to grow year after year and United history in China and Asia for the most part really helps them out. United over the years has developed strong ties to the Chinese communities not only in the States but also in China and it seems to be paying off. Also having Air China in the Star Alliance helps bolster United's presence in this region as well. However I am still surprised by those numbers.
 
Pe@rson
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:00 pm

A different picture emerges if you look at an entire year - in this case, 2012 - by total one-way seats for the top-20 airlines in PEK. Note that it is for all seats, so domestic airlines that also operate international services are included as a whole - but at least you can see where everything fits:

CA 20046937
CZ 7814129
MU 6974941
HU 4283223
MF 1106824
3U 890496
SC 829692
KA 741728
ZH 612002
JD 482928
SQ 450108
FM 431968
KE 426363
UA 413712
OZ 412438

CN 402773
NH 378271
EK 305118
LH 281090
CX 214599


Source: OAG.
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LAXintl
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):
plus 6 daily departures from Hong Kong.

I think you are missing one.

UA has 7 markets from HKG. GUM is less then daily at 5x weekly this summer.

ORD
SFO
EWR
GUM
NRT
SGN
SIN
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
johnclipper
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
Hong Kong to China is a little like Puerto Rico to the US. Neither one has a UN seat. Both are totally, by 100% consensus part of their mother nations.

But, both are considered "nations" by the Olympics and each competed in 2012 under their own separate flags!

For this analysis, I believe NYC-SJU is a domestic flight and HKG-PEK is also a domestic flight (yes, they have different passports). It is not fair to say Dragonair is a "foreign" carrier at Beijing.

Ah, not even close. HKG-PEK or any HKG-PRC flights are INTERNATIONAL flights. Flights arriving into PEK, for example, have to clear immigration and customs just like flight from the U.S. SJU-USA flights do not.
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
davidho1985
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:30 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
For this analysis, I believe NYC-SJU is a domestic flight and HKG-PEK is also a domestic flight (yes, they have different passports). It is not fair to say Dragonair is a "foreign" carrier at Beijing.

All flights between Hong Kong and China are considered as Internation flights.
Boarding / deboarding take place in the internation portion of the terminal in China (HKG has no domestic flights, thus no domestic terminal).
 
justinlee
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:39 am

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 15):
Ah, not even close. HKG-PEK or any HKG-PRC flights are INTERNATIONAL flights. Flights arriving into PEK, for example, have to clear immigration and customs just like flight from the U.S. SJU-USA flights do not.

Officially, it's not INTERNATIONAL Flights! It's REGIONAL Flights. And the immigration process is different. Mainland citizens use "Entry Permit for Travelling to and from Hong Kong and Macau" which is issued by the Ministry of Public Security to enter HK or Macau but use Passport which is issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to travel abroad.
 
Viscount724
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:03 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 13):
A different picture emerges if you look at an entire year -

That data for the week of February 18-24 may not be representative of other periods due to the Chinese New Year shortly before that week. I doubt all routes and carriers are affected equally by that major holiday period.

In any case, saying UA is the largest foreign carrier based on only one week of data is rather misleading.
 
johnclipper
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:12 am

Quoting justinlee (Reply 17):
Officially, it's not INTERNATIONAL Flights! It's REGIONAL Flights. And the immigration process is different. Mainland citizens use "Entry Permit for Travelling to and from Hong Kong and Macau" which is issued by the Ministry of Public Security to enter HK or Macau but use Passport which is issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to travel abroad.

But they are still international flights. They arrive at international terminals, not domestic terminals.
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
fraspotter
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:40 am

Quoting justinlee (Reply 17):
Officially, it's not INTERNATIONAL Flights! It's REGIONAL Flights.

It's both... You can have regional international flights (DTW-YYZ) and regional domestic flights (AUS-IAH). "Regional" is in reference to distance, nothing else...
"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
 
justinlee
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting fraspotter (Reply 20):
It's both... You can have regional international flights (DTW-YYZ) and regional domestic flights (AUS-IAH). "Regional" is in reference to distance, nothing else...

Maybe Territorial Flights. Officially, Territorial Flights (地区航班) means flights to Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan.
 
justinlee
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:45 am

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 16):
All flights between Hong Kong and China are considered as Internation flights.

Maybe for flights, it's kind of arguable. But CX is really a China Hong Kong carrier right?
 
Flighty
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 15):
Ah, not even close. HKG-PEK or any HKG-PRC flights are INTERNATIONAL flights.

Hong Kong is located in the PRC!! It is not a foreign country to the PRC... it is definitely inside it.
 
ChazPilot
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:08 am

Can we pls drop the geopolitics here and get back to the main purpose of this thread?

To folllow in justinlee's first post - good point about the a/c in operation here. KE definitely (and SQ to an extent) operate smaller a/c on average than UA, which only sends in 744 and 777. That graph is showing seat capacity, which unless I'm about to put my foot in my mouth means just that - the number of available seats they fly in/out in the given time period. It doesn't mean they are necessarily the highest on pax numbers(?)
 
davidho1985
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:49 am

Quoting justinlee (Reply 21):
Maybe Territorial Flights. Officially, Territorial Flights (地区航班) means flights to Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan.

The terms " Territorial Flights (地区航班)" mainly used to avoid classifing flights to/from Taiwan as domesitc flight / international flight.

Nither PRC or Taiwan will be happy for nither classification.
 
B2443
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:48 pm

UA's PEK number doesn't add up. OK, 7 day's available seats of 16,660, which works out 2,380 seats per day, which means average 595 seats per flight (based on 4 flights/day), which makes no sense. UA's 744s/772s don't have that kind of configuration. Does "capacity" include both arriving and departing seats?

[Edited 2013-02-22 13:57:09]
 
bennator
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:17 am

Quoting justinlee (Reply 22):
Maybe for flights, it's kind of arguable. But CX is really a China Hong Kong carrier right?

I'm actually not sure. It's headquartered in HK, so in that sense it's Chinese, but looking at its largest shareholders here: http://www.cathaypacific.com/cpa/en_...56ef7cf010VgnVCM32000011d21c39____ , the largest shareholder is Swire Pacific, a UK company. Now, since the two shareholders listed do not add up to 100%, I don't know if it is majority held by HK (and thus Chinese) owners, or not, but I'm not sure it's easy to find.

OTOH, you could get around this by arguing that the headquarter site is more important than the ownership, at which point UA would be the largest.
 
Cipango
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:17 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 10):
For this analysis, I believe NYC-SJU is a domestic flight and HKG-PEK is also a domestic flight (yes, they have different passports). It is not fair to say Dragonair is a "foreign" carrier at Beijing.

Just felt I needed to add to this. If I have to clear immigration in China, on top of obtaining an expensive Visa to travel to China, then I feel I am travelling internationally.

Likewise for Chinese coming to Hong Kong. They can not just cross the border, they enter into a long and expensive process to obtain a document allowing them into Hong Kong. If they were domestic, all of this would be invalid.

Hong Kong to all people in Hong Kong is not part of China. It is independent and survives very well on its own.
Let's fly! Unless it's on a CRJ 200, then I'll stay down here.
 
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huaiwei
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting ChazPilot (Reply 24):
That graph is showing seat capacity, which unless I'm about to put my foot in my mouth means just that - the number of available seats they fly in/out in the given time period. It doesn't mean they are necessarily the highest on pax numbers(?)

Precisely what I was thinking the moment I saw the figures. UA may have to fly larger planes due to range, but do their planes fill up to match that of regional carriers who fly smaller planes on more frequent trips?

Quoting cipango (Reply 28):
Hong Kong to all people in Hong Kong is not part of China. It is independent and survives very well on its own.

Your Chief Executive won't agree to that, so your point is moot unless you think he is not a HK resident.

Anyway, everyone is right. HK considers the flights as international. China considers them as regional (which has a different meaning from the "regional" as used in places like the US). You just need to check up the respective airline websites and take a look at their annual reports to see how they view the same routes.

That should end the geopolitical talk, I hope?  
It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
 
dtfg
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:51 am

It is not so surprising. UA operates 4 daily flights at PEK, 3 by 777 (EWR ORD IAD) and one by 747 (SFO), SQ also serve 4 flights but the total capacity is lower than UA since they use 330 and 777. KE and OZ, though they have more frequencies, they use narrow body planes on several routes.

I wonder if UA would add PEK-LAX or add more frequencies on its existing routes
 
jfk777
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting dtfg (Reply 30):
I wonder if UA would add PEK-LAX or add more frequencies on its existing routes

I would love to see AA fly a 777 from LAX to Peking like they do to Shangahi, then UA had to do it too.
 
justinlee
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:43 am

Quoting cipango (Reply 28):
Likewise for Chinese coming to Hong Kong. They can not just cross the border, they enter into a long and expensive process to obtain a document allowing them into Hong Kong. If they were domestic, all of this would be invalid.

Hi, I just go to the police station nearby to get a entry permit to Hong Kong. It takes me 1 hour and 40 RMB (which is about 6 USD) to get that. If you think that's long and expensive, I have nothing to say  
 
dtfg
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RE: UA Becomes The Largest Foreign Carrier In PEK

Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 31):
I would love to see AA fly a 777 from LAX to Peking like they do to Shangahi, then UA had to do it too.

Rumors said AA is seriously considering this route as well as JFK-PEK/PVG. I think the slot of PEK would be a major problem. their PEK-ORD is still bleeding i guess

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