deltal1011man
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Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:15 pm

starts June 10th
SEA-LAS
DL2431 2030-2252 738 D

LAS-SEA
DL2430 1730-1945 757 D

SEA-ANC
DL1579 2045-2330 757 D

ANC-SEA
DL0822 0030-500 757 D *starts June 11*

         this could get interesting      


*note, in Delta timetable, should hit Delta.com Saturday.
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commavia
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Thread starter):
this could get interesting

Wow.

Yep - this is going to get interesting. I suppose this could be simply a way to get some utilization flying in, and boost connectivity for some of the Asia flights. But it doesn't seem like it. Rumors to date notwithstanding, this seems to me to be a strong signal from Delta, and I think we can all take a pretty good guess who the intended recipient is.

Long-term, Alaska can respond to this in one of three ways:

(1) they can ignore it continue with business as usual (including continuing to pursue their dual-track AA/DL partnership strategy

(2) they can succumb to the pressure Delta is obviously mounting (and appears likely to continue to mount) and drop AA

(3) they can go the other extreme, reactive strongly in response, and dump Delta

There are pros and cons to each of those paths. It will be fascinating to see which Delta pursues.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:23 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
(1) they can ignore it continue with business as usual (including continuing to pursue their dual-track AA/DL partnership strategy

Interestingly enough If i try to find a flight on AS for these two the timetable routes me over Portland or Los Angeles
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davescj
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:27 pm

I have to wonder about SEA - LAS as a "competitive" route against AS. LAS is a recreation city. I suspect this is a seasonal route. Even if it is perm, can it be a serious problem? Why not slap an AS code on the flight if there is room for another flight?

I am of the same mind about SEA - ANC. How much daily traffic is there to ANC year round? Part of how AS manages to fly is that AS code share (therefore fills planes) as much as possible.

If there is sufficient traffic, again, why not add a route?

And let's not forget how short a life some DL flights have lived.

Dave
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seatback
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:29 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
(1) they can ignore it continue with business as usual (including continuing to pursue their dual-track AA/DL partnership strategy

(2) they can succumb to the pressure Delta is obviously mounting (and appears likely to continue to mount) and drop AA

(3) they can go the other extreme, reactive strongly in response, and dump Delta



I think there's definitely something going on behind the scenes at AS. They can't be happy about DL's slow build up. This could be positioning AA better. I'm sure the new AA would appreciate being AS' sole partner.

Should AS and DL divorce, could/would we see some AA Asia build up out of SEA?
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:33 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Thread starter):
starts June 10th
SEA-LAS
DL2431 2030-2252 738 D

LAS-SEA
DL2430 1730-1945 757 D

I'm surprised it's not scheduled to feed the TPAC operation.

[Edited 2013-02-21 05:37:16]
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:36 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 4):
Should AS and DL divorce, could/would we see some AA Asia build up out of SEA?

I guess its possible but even with a divorce, Delta would add some feed for its Asian network on its own. Market isn't big enough for two.
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commavia
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting seatback (Reply 4):
They can't be happy about DL's slow build up. This could be positioning AA better. I'm sure the new AA would appreciate being AS' sole partner.

I agree - AS would likely prefer to not have competition from its "competimate" in several of its largest markets (ANC, LAX, LAS) out of its largest hub. This could - theoretically - push AS into AA's open and willing arms. But I don't know if that is realistic, either.

Quoting seatback (Reply 4):
Should AS and DL divorce, could/would we see some AA Asia build up out of SEA?

Possible, I suppose, but hard to imagine. The only SEA-Asia market I think AA can and should be in is SEA-NRT, either with an AA 777 or JL 787 - if I'm not mistaken, SEA is by far the largest U.S.-NRT market the AA/JL is not presently represented in.

However, these things don't happen in a vacuum. If - hypothetically - AS were to entirely sever ties with DL, and AA were to try and build an Asia hub in SEA based on the AS partnership, they would almost certainly then find themselves fighting against DL who would then no doubt be building its own SEA "hub" (with nothing - vis a vis AS - to lose).

All that being said, again, though - I don't see AA building up a large Asia gateway out of SEA.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 5):
I'm surprised it's not scheduled to feed the TPAC operation.

Based on the scheduling it looks like this is clearly utilization flying. Based on the schedule, it is probably a aircraft coming in from the east coast that would just have parked on the west coast (LAS and SEA) for long sits and are now just doing additional flying before coming back to LAS/SEA to head back east again.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:41 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 5):
I'm surprised it's not scheduled to feed the TPAC operation.

Yeah, It looks like its kinda timed up to HND but most of the other TPAC flying leaves in the early afternoon


Oh course, it could change. A little odd to have a 738 one way and 757 the other.
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deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:45 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
This could - theoretically - push AS into AA's open and willing arms. But I don't know if that is realistic, either.

not two flights. IMO its just DL showing they will do their own thing if they have too....

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
if I'm not mistaken, SEA is by far the largest U.S.-NRT market the AA/JL is not presently represented in.

But has a ton of capacity from DL (744-NRT 76W-HND) and Star (ANA NRT-787 errr 777? and UA NRT 777) I don't think Oneworld wants any part of that blood bath. (and doesn't JL fly to YVR?)

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
they would almost certainly then find themselves fighting against DL who would then no doubt be building its own SEA "hub" (with nothing - vis a vis AS - to lose).

Right. Delta isn't going to just dump the SEA flying. They will simply add some limited feed ie the old PDX hub.
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JoePatroni707
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:48 pm

Let the DL is buying AS rumours begin.......   
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:50 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 9):
But has a ton of capacity from DL (744-NRT 76W-HND) and Star (ANA NRT-787 errr 777? and UA NRT 777) I don't think Oneworld wants any part of that blood bath.

True, the market right now is a bloodbath. NH has entered while UA has stuck around, and DL is dumping a ton of additional capacity into the market. Nonetheless, I'm not sure how long that will last for. And I still contend that, long-term, strategically, SEA-NRT (and really more broadly SEA-Asia) is a market oneworld needs to have a presence in.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 9):
(and doesn't JL fly to YVR?)

Yes, but YVR is not the same market as SEA.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 9):
Right. Delta isn't going to just dump the SEA flying. They will simply add some limited feed ie the old PDX hub.

I do question how long that would be sustainable, though. (Frankly, I question even how long this present situation is really sustainable.)
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
And I still contend that, long-term, strategically, SEA-NRT (and really more broadly SEA-Asia) is a market oneworld needs to have a presence in.

Probably a 787 market, once they get back in the air.

My guess would be DL jumping into SFO-SEA next.
 
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STT757
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:59 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 12):
My guess would be DL jumping into SFO-SEA next.

I think they want to concentrate this against AS, and not draw in UA which might lead to a larger issue for DL. So I would say SAN might be next.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
Based on the scheduling it looks like this is clearly utilization flying. Based on the schedule, it is probably a aircraft coming in from the east coast that would just have parked on the west coast (LAS and SEA) for long sits and are now just doing additional flying before coming back to LAS/SEA to head back east again.

The schedule indicates as said its clearly utilization flying.

LAS-SEA-LAS positions aircraft in the evening that can be used then for a red-eye back east.

SEA-ANC-SEA is overnight red-eye flying
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
I think they want to concentrate this against AS, and not draw in UA which might lead to a larger issue for DL. So I would say SAN might be next.

Perhaps, but then I guess it depends on what their strategy actually is. Conspiracy theory about leveraging AS aside, if their intent is to build a larger operation to develop a more higher yielding, elite passenger base then Northern California will be key to that strategy (tech traffic etc). I can most definitely see SAN and SNA coming soon too.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Thread starter):
starts June 10th
SEA-LAS
DL2431 2030-2252 738 D

LAS-SEA
DL2430 1730-1945 757 D

SEA-ANC
DL1579 2045-2330 757 D

ANC-SEA
DL0822 0030-500 757 D *starts June 11*

Are these competitive or complimentary time? To me, that would make it look like either an aggression or a supportive move...
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rwsea
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:22 pm

I know there's the usual a.net tendency to add emotion and drama into any situation, but let's focus on facts here. DL has added a single daily frequency in two important AS markets. Each market has multiple daily flights by AS (in case of ANC, something like 15x daily in the summer, maybe even more). DL's flights are at inconvenient times that suggest nothing but repositioning. If they can pick up some pax in those flights, then all the better for it. At the same time, in the last couple of years AS has added flights, again limited to 1-2 daily frequencies, to important Delta markets like SLC, MSP, and ATL. I fail to see how DL adding a few reposition flights signals an all-out war with AS, anymore than AS adding a daily flight to MSP signalled an all-out war with DL.

Yes DL added SEA-LAX, but they've also added many other destinations from LAX. LAX is an important international gateway for DL, as is SEA. It makes sense to offer some of their own connections between the two.

Yes, AS is strengthening ties with AA... but again how does this hurt the all-important AS feed to DL's SEA gateway? The extent of the AS/AA partnership is pretty much the connections available at LAX. Other than SEA, PDX, and some Mexican holiday destinations, the AS network at LAX has never lent itself to supporting a massive international gateway, as may be the case in SEA.

I take this at face value - DL getting some extra utilization, while taking advantage of its increasing FF base in SEA and it's increased number of aircraft overnighting there due to a general increase in service (such as the increase of SEA-JFK from 3 to 5 daily this summer). Anything about a "war" is utter nonsense.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I do question how long that would be sustainable, though. (Frankly, I question even how long this present situation is really sustainable.)

I have said before, I don't think this is the way to go. The only sustainable thing I see it the big M word. IMO SEA isn't be enough, nor does it have the space for two hubs. (plus a large WN operation)

regardless, Delta has to have a place(s) to start overflying Japan. DTW has become the nice gateway to the east coast (ala ORD for UA). SEA and LAX to a point will, IMO, become Delta's place from the west coast. I just don't see Delta being able to rely on AS the way they are now for long term stability.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
SEA-NRT (and really more broadly SEA-Asia) is a market oneworld needs to have a presence in.

I agree. Give it time, I personally think UA's days a numbered. (and I also think DL will be going back to a 333 once the fleet finishes mods.)

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
and not draw in UA which might lead to a larger issue for DL.

I honestly don't think UA would blink that much. IMO UA would just hope that DL would add enough capacity to get VX to blink(Or does VS only fly to SEA from LAX?). I think UA knows as much as we do that this is just some kind of pissing match between AS and DL. IMHO it wont last long.

SFO would be my bet for any extra SEA flying(also say SAN/PHX wouldn't shock me though). I wouldn't be shocked at all to LAX-PDX happen.
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STT757
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
I honestly don't think UA would blink that much.

I disagree, I think UA would retaliate and I think DL knows this which is why they have have added everything but SFO. After LAX SFO has to be the most important West Coast market from SEA, if DL's plans were not retaliatory towards AS then why not add SFO sooner? Las Vegas before San Francisco, really?
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SocalApproach
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:14 pm

I don't understand what DL is doing and why. Granted its just 1 flight SEA-ANC. I cant expect DL to put anything significant on SEA-SFO and they wouldn't be dumb enough to through an RJ on the route but There is enough capacity on that route as it is AS/UA/VX and then WN/AS with service to OAK. I look forward to when we know what this is all about if anything is under lying. But it may be nothing. Its not like AS doesnt have routes overlaping DL anywhere. Dont they fly SEA-ATL SEA-MSP and I recall it getting a little roudy here when AS announced SEA-SLC.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
I disagree, I think UA would retaliate and I think DL knows this which is why they have have added everything but SFO. After LAX SFO has to be the most important West Coast market from SEA, if DL's plans were not retaliatory towards AS then why not add SFO sooner? Las Vegas before San Francisco, really?

They did the same thing in LAX. LAX and even SAN came before SFO. Delta is bigger in LAX and LAS then they are in SFO. Plus LAS is pretty big for Asians.

Also if the SEA-SFO schedule is as big of a joke as LAS is I don't think it will even be a dot on UAs radar. At most it will get a few laughs from the guys in UAs Network dept. 1x flight a day that connects to nearly nothing for Delta..... They are digging their own grave.
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mcogator
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:21 pm

SEA-HKG next? How about a SEA-BKK NS flight? Can the 777 make it?
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panamair
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 5):

I'm surprised it's not scheduled to feed the TPAC operation.

The SEA-LAS is timed for the arrival from HND. The LAS-SEA flight can feed both HND and PEK as both leave SEA in the late evening.
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:29 pm

SEA-ANC is the most interesting and telling IMHO. Its not to feed asia flights clearly so that is interesting
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 22):
How about a SEA-BKK NS flight? Can the 777 make it?

777 can do it, but it wouldn't work. to long and low yielding.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 22):
SEA-HKG next?

I think SEA-HKG, SEA-NGO or SEA-ICN would be the three looked at. NGO/ICN can be hit with a 767. HKG i think would have to be a 330 or T7. At ~5600nm that at the very edge of the 767-300ER ranger(without winglets I show 5900nm) So maybe the 76T fleet could do it and still take a meaning payload.

Also an outside shot for TPE with the CI hub.
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psa1011
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:47 pm

Does anyone know why UA cancelled SFO-NGO? Would it have been too costly to replace the 777 with a 763?
 
steex
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
I disagree, I think UA would retaliate and I think DL knows this which is why they have have added everything but SFO. After LAX SFO has to be the most important West Coast market from SEA, if DL's plans were not retaliatory towards AS then why not add SFO sooner? Las Vegas before San Francisco, really?

I'm not sure I follow you in the "everything but SFO" statement - they haven't added all that much to SEA. I guess you can argue that SEA-MEM is a route that is out of left field, but it is still route to a hub (however small). LAX-SEA was added at least as much to build LAX as to build SEA.

So that leaves us these current adds, SEA-ANC/LAS, with schedules clearly based on utilization that are likely to capture overflow traffic (which will largely be leisure travelers on both routes). That type of move wouldn't suffice for SFO, they'd need to enter with a competitive schedule for the business traveler (at least 3x daily), requiring planes to be allocated from elsewhere since it wouldn't be just utilization flying. Perhaps DL does prefer to avoid UA/SFO, but I don't think the moves they've made thus far actually provide useful evidence to that.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:51 pm

Wow it is *on*. I would not want to be DL or AS right now as it has the potential to get really ugly really quickly.

Quoting commavia (Reply 11):
I do question how long that would be sustainable, though.

I don't think it is sustainable without a fundamental change to one of the carrier's SEA operations. One way or another DL needs to control its flow at SEA, either with or without AS
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:54 pm

I'd say the SEA-ANC route is just utilization flying. Isn't B6's ANC route the same thing?

As for LAS, that is clearly a utilization flight, as each way is a different type of aircraft.
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SonomaFlyer
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 22):

SEA-HKG next? How about a SEA-BKK NS flight? Can the 777 make it?

That's quite a leap from a couple of positioning flights to long haul flights to Asia. SEA-BKK is 6481 nm which would mean the 77L would be the only a/c that should be used in the DL fleet. There is not much of a market so don't expect a route like this one.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting mcogator (Reply 22):
SEA-HKG next? How about a SEA-BKK NS flight? Can the 777 make it?

I could definitely see NRT-HKG being replaced by SEA-HKG. Seems like a market that could work with a 777. SEA-BKK? Don't think so - way to long and low-yielding a route. Better to keep that one flowing over NRT.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:30 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 17):
I take this at face value - DL getting some extra utilization, while taking advantage of its increasing FF base in SEA and it's increased number of aircraft overnighting there due to a general increase in service (such as the increase of SEA-JFK from 3 to 5 daily this summer). Anything about a "war" is utter nonsense.

Thank goodness, some level-headed realism. This isn't about DL trying to disrupt the business plans of one of their most important domestic partners.
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peanuts
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting SocalApproach (Reply 20):
I don't understand what DL is doing and why.

Funny

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 32):
This isn't about DL trying to disrupt the business plans of one of their most important domestic partners.

Funnier.


Remember High School? Ever try to draw the attention from a pretty girl? Maybe you throw some "innocent" (=utilization flying) attention grabbers?
DL means it. It wants to know if AS is here to play ball or not.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 31):
I could definitely see NRT-HKG being replaced by SEA-HKG.

Agreed. UA few this route before they acquired PA's system I believe. I can see DL adding it.

Quoting mesaflyguy (Reply 29):
As for LAS, that is clearly a utilization flight, as each way is a different type of aircraft.

Also, as mentioned above, it feeds HND and PEK, two markets that are popular with Las Vegas. Two birds, one stone as they say.

The Seattle market can handle this extra capacity but then it depends on what DL's long term strategy is. I don't think an acquisition is an option - AS is far too expensive for what DL would be getting.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:57 pm

These new routes are not about connections. DL is stepping into high O/D markets out of SEA. Other than MSP & LAX, none of DL’s domestic hubs out of SEA are high (top 10) O/D markets from SEA. This results in most people from SEA remaining loyal to AS’ mileage program since they mostly fly AS. DL likely is trying to capture some of the elite flyers and get them using their Delta Skymiles account rather than just earning AS miles while flying on DL.

If they want to grow their elite ranks and help fill up the premium cabins on those international flights out of SEA, they have to have a reasonable domestic network. People loyal to AS, can choose other airlines for their long haul services, so DL needs to grow some of its domestic routes a bit. This are high O/D markets, so there is room for DL on them, although SEA-ANC will be a bloodbath this summer with AS, UA, DL and B6.

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
Quoting seatback (Reply 4):
Should AS and DL divorce, could/would we see some AA Asia build up out of SEA?

Possible, I suppose, but hard to imagine. The only SEA-Asia market I think AA can and should be in is SEA-NRT, either with an AA 777 or JL 787 - if I'm not mistaken, SEA is by far the largest U.S.-NRT market the AA/JL is not presently represented in.

I doubt we’ll see AA growing SEA-Asia. DL has taken the market. There is much more competition now than when AA dropped SEA-NRT a decade ago. The SEA-NRT route is going to be oversaturated since we are looking at 4 daily flights (DL NRT, DL HND, UA NRT & NH NRT). I think AA would be wise to stay out of international flying from SEA.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 12):

My guess would be DL jumping into SFO-SEA next.

I absolutely agree. SEA-SFO is the top O/D route out of SEA. UA tends to be the capacity leader on that route, unlike AS leading capacity on every other route, so the yields are not going to be good with 4 airlines on the route and WN to OAK & SJC.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 16):
Are these competitive or complimentary time? To me, that would make it look like either an aggression or a supportive move...

Times should help with fleet utilization. There are plenty of idle planes on the west coast in the evening hours before the redeyes. The SEA-ANC flight is for connections to the rest of the country. The majority of ANC traffic leaves SEA in the evening and has a midnight redeye return to SEA.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:00 pm

Slow down guys... I initially thought of something shady when I saw this, but don't forget a couple months ago DL flew a 744 into SEA and had a big orgy with AS employees talking about an expanded partnership... now I guess it's possible DL all of the sudden just decided that was a bad idea and wanted to lash out against one of their strongest partners at their very developed hub...

or maybe the execs talked things out and okayed the AS flying routes like SEA-SLC and DL on SEA-ANC. I know we love speculating but let's stop being so cynical and remember events that have just happened.

I think we can agree that codesharing is NOT merging. Maybe there are more passengers that want to fly SEA-ANC than AS can fly with it's current schedule and DL just so happens to have a 757 lying around not doing anything... "hey, AS, cancel that up-gauge of SEA-ANC, we got it, we have this 757 lying around, our guys are already working on the codeshare. Oh by the way, glad to see you on the SEA-SLC route. Our codesharing can only do so much for our passengers."

I could be completely wrong, but I think that makes more sense than DL all of the sudden backstabbing their closest US ally out of the blue because the party up in SEA didn't excite the DL execs enough...
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MaverickM11
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:10 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
maybe the execs talked things out and okayed the AS flying routes like SEA-SLC and DL on SEA-ANC.

That is illegal

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
forget a couple months ago DL flew a 744 into SEA and had a big orgy with AS employees talking about an expanded partnership

And since then, AS announced a major upgrade to its AA partnership, hence DL adding anything and everything to SEA
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deltal1011man
Posts: 4715
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 26):
Does anyone know why UA cancelled SFO-NGO? Would it have been too costly to replace the 777 with a 763?

I haven't figured out why UA doesn't run this with a 767.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 30):
That's quite a leap from a couple of positioning flights to long haul flights to Asia. SEA-BKK is 6481 nm which would mean the 77L would be the only a/c that should be used in the DL fleet. There is not much of a market so don't expect a route like this one.

....uh its not a leap for a carrier that already has SEA-NRT/KIX/HND/PEK/PVG.

Quoting commavia (Reply 31):
I could definitely see NRT-HKG being replaced by SEA-HKG.

I don't think they will replace NRT-HKG(or PEK/PVG) just yet. If they didn't pull NRT-HKG for DTW-HKG I don't think they will do so for SEA-HKG.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 34):
AS is far too expensive for what DL would be getting.

.....uhhh What? AS's Market cap is right at 3B.... thats not to expensive for a merger that would be mostly stock.
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United1
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
I honestly don't think UA would blink that much. IMO UA would just hope that DL would add enough capacity to get VX to blink(Or does VS only fly to SEA from LAX?). I think UA knows as much as we do that this is just some kind of pissing match between AS and DL. IMHO it wont last long.

What makes no sense to me is why DL would do anything to risk their partnership with AS....without it all of those flights they have to Asia from SEA are at risk.

Quoting psa1011 (Reply 26):
Does anyone know why UA cancelled SFO-NGO? Would it have been too costly to replace the 777 with a 763?

UA had the NUMMI contract on the route...when NUMMI shut down the route ceased to be viable. It may return with the 788s...

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 38):
...uh its not a leap for a carrier that already has SEA-NRT/KIX/HND/PEK/PVG.

BKK tends to be a high volume lower yields market....they can certainly get enough passengers to justify a non-stop but I'm not sure they would be able to charge enough to make it profitable.
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STT757
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
I initially thought of something shady when I saw this, but don't forget a couple months ago DL flew a 744 into SEA and had a big orgy with AS employees talking about an expanded partnership... now I guess it's possible DL all of the sudden just decided that was a bad idea and wanted to lash out against one of their strongest partners at their very developed hub...



If this were planned all along why wouldn't DL make one big announcement about expanding SEA, instead they are drip drip dripping a new route every couple days. It's got the feel of something that was not long in planning, otherwise as you pointed out about previous instances where is the big announcement. This is retaliatory.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 38):
I haven't figured out why UA doesn't run this with a 767.



It will most likely return as a 787.
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jporterfi
Posts: 463
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting Deltal1011man (Thread starter):
SEA-LAS
DL2431 2030-2252 738 D

LAS-SEA
DL2430 1730-1945 757 D

Interesting that it is a 738 in one direction and a 757 in the other direction. Based on that, is it safe to assume that the a/c are heading back east after these flights each night? Or maybe in the case of the 738, it can be used for an LAS-SLC flight?
 
iowaman
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:03 pm

Very interesting. Nice use of aircraft that are probably otherwise sitting around. I doubt they will have any problem filling these aircraft in the summer with all the cruise traffic on SEA-ANC and SEA-LAS is also a substantial market. AS has an impressive amount of seats on both the SEA-ANC and LAS markets:

Daily schedules for June:

SEA-ANC:

AS:

0600-0840 734
0800-1042 734
0900-1138 734
1000-1240 734
1100-1335 734
1130-1404 734
1210-1438 739
1400-1630 734
1500-1747 734
1600-1840 734
1700-1935 734
1800-2044 734
1830-2058 734
1900-2137 734
1930-2204 734
1955-2223 739
2015-2245 739
2100-2337 738
2240-0120 734
2345-0230 734

B6:

2015-2249 320

UA:

1330-1600 739
2055-2325 752

DL (the new flight):

0030-0500 752

SEA-LAS:

AS:

0600-0818 738
0730-0947 738
0835-1055 738
0935-1154 738
1115-1336 738
1230-1452 738
1420-1640 738
1840-2058 738
2045-2303 737

WN:

0600-0805 733
1140-1410 737
1530-1800 733
1855-2120 737
2125-2345 733

DL (the new flight):

2030-2252 738

Also indirect competition is AS and G4 on BLI-LAS.
 
SANFan
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:14 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
So I would say SAN might be next.

I would agree, thinking we will probably see the announcement before March (with a June start-up.)

And this would be AS's first competition on the route since B6 tried it in 2008-09. As I mentioned in another thread just a day or 2 ago, this could very well explain AS adding service (~1 1/2 flts/day) to their summer offerings in the SAN-SEA market...

bb
 
slcdeltarumd11
Posts: 3279
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
forget a couple months ago DL flew a 744 into SEA and had a big orgy with AS employees talking about an expanded partnership
And since then, AS announced a major upgrade to its AA partnership, hence DL adding anything and everything to SEA

Delta might just be trying to accelerate AS decision on partners. The delta execs may have decided it makes more sense to push alaska to make a decision and accelerate it now before they spend too much on developing SEA and buiiding the market. I don't think they plan on going solo in SEA without AS they just want to know they have AS there as a partner not one that will leave them two years down the road after they have spent all this money on SEA. I could see this as forcing them to choose a side they might feel a little nervous after AS just announced a major partnership upgrade with AA and they are about to invest all this money in SEA
 
syncmaster
Posts: 1926
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
And since then, AS announced a major upgrade to its AA partnership, hence DL adding anything and everything to SEA

What's the long-term viability (both for corporate reasons and potentially DOJ reasons) of this enhanced partnership with AA anyways?

Arguably DL needs to position themselves better on the west coast if/when the AA/US merger is completed. Not to mention that when the most recent AS/DL announcement occurred DL made no secret of the fact that SEA was on their radar and that they were building up their presence there.
 
diverdave
Posts: 453
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:00 am

RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
This could - theoretically - push AS into AA's open and willing arms

AA's open and willing arms will be quite well occupied for the next couple of years executing its merger with Doug Parker Enterprises dba US Air.

 

David
 
MIflyer12
Posts: 2005
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:59 pm

Quoting syncmaster (Reply 45):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
And since then, AS announced a major upgrade to its AA partnership, hence DL adding anything and everything to SEA

What's the long-term viability (both for corporate reasons and potentially DOJ reasons) of this enhanced partnership with AA anyways?

IMHO, US fixes few of AA's West Coast weaknesses - AA needs AS support whether or not it merges with US.

So the flight schedules show DL's single flight is the 24th flight of the day in SEA-ANC? That's not a big increment and I'm not going to read too much into it. 6x 753s daily would be a big 'Up yours!'
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 44):
Delta might just be trying to accelerate AS decision on partners. The delta execs may have decided it makes more sense to push alaska to make a decision and accelerate it now before they spend too much on developing SEA and buiiding the market. I don't think they plan on going solo in SEA without AS they just want to know they have AS there as a partner not one that will leave them two years down the road after they have spent all this money on SEA. I could see this as forcing them to choose a side they might feel a little nervous after AS just announced a major partnership upgrade with AA and they are about to invest all this money in SEA

Why would AS want to choose a side? They apparently get significant revenue from each partnership. That's part of their highly successful business model. What would AS benefit by choosing sides and giving up their substantial code-share revenue with AA?

If I were AS, I'd tell DL to be satisfied with the business benefit that DL gets from their partnership with AS, and quit being greedy and expecting AS to give up their also lucrative partnership with AA (if this were in fact what DL is intending).
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta Starting SEA-LAS/ANC

Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):

or maybe the execs talked things out and okayed the AS flying routes like SEA-SLC and DL on SEA-ANC. I know we love speculating but let's stop being so cynical and remember events that have just happened.

I think we can agree that codesharing is NOT merging. Maybe there are more passengers that want to fly SEA-ANC than AS can fly with it's current schedule and DL just so happens to have a 757 lying around not doing anything... "hey, AS, cancel that up-gauge of SEA-ANC, we got it, we have this 757 lying around, our guys are already working on the codeshare. Oh by the way, glad to see you on the SEA-SLC route. Our codesharing can only do so much for our passengers."

I could be completely wrong, but I think that makes more sense than DL all of the sudden backstabbing their closest US ally out of the blue because the party up in SEA didn't excite the DL execs enough...

Delta and Alaska do not have anti-trust immunity. So far I don’t believe any domestic airlines have anti-trust immunity to coordinate schedules. That means that they may not collaborate or coordinate schedules. Even though they codeshare, they cannot technically coordinate schedules between them or make any attempt to jointly manage capacity.

For example DL and KL do have anti-trust immunity. They can coordinate transatlantic schedules. DL and KL management do come together to manage capacity and trade routes back and forth and can revenue share. DL and AS cannot do that. They must act independently. If DL wants to time their international departures from SEA to match up with AS arrival & departure banks, they can do that. However they cannot request that AS operates a flight to city XXX at time YYY in order to connect with their international arrivals from PVG/PEK/KIX/etc.
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