Thenoflyzone
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YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:32 pm

Interesting article in the La Presse (french only) last friday.

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie...pacts-negatifs-de-300-millions.php

Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean. YUL only has one flight to Asia (western Asia), and that is QR to DOH.

Now this article basically states that the lack of non-stop flights from YUL to the top 10 techno cities in the world has a negative economical impact of 300M $ on the city. These numbers are based on a study conducted by the airports of PDX and SAN, which claim that a non stop flight generates 20 to 50 M $ in economical benefits to a city.

Now granted, some of these cities will never see a non-stop from YUL, because it simply doesn't make economical sense, but nevertheless.....

top 10 cities listed are:

SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
SEA
SIN
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
HEL
TLV
BLR
NRT
HKG
ICN

As a comparison, YYZ has non stop flights to 7 of these cities, vs YUL which only has 1 (not counting SFO since it's seasonal only)

Bearing this in mind, I would just like to know your thoughts about this and if you think this study holds any water?

Of note, at the end of the article, Mr. Rovinescu, AC's president & CEO, says he's optimistic about a non stop from YUL to PEK and BEY.

Thenoflyzone
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Thenoflyzone
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:37 pm

Lets make it two destinations in western Asia. Forgot about RJ to AMM.

Thenoflyzone
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point2point
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:41 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)
SEA

YUL - U.S. West Coast definitely lacking and doable with nonstops

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SIN

Nonstops currently not doable from NYC........ don't think they'll be doable from YUL

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
MUC (daily non stop in summer, 5 weekly in winter by LH)
HEL

MUC - maybe more could be done here
HEL - is there enough traffic here?

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
TLV


TVL probably doable.....

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
BLR
NRT
HKG
ICN

NRT and ICN probably doable.....
HKG - too long and thin I would suppose
BLR - is there really enough traffic here?



 
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:45 pm

I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service? Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of. I would think that if they could find one at YUL they would take advantage of it. Maybe I'm wrong and just nobody has thought of YUL. But to me it seems it would be a larger airport if it could be sustained..
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longhauler
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:55 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
I understand the frustration many politicians must have not having worldwide connections in their cities, but if it made economical sense wouldn't the airlines start service?

Exactly.

Airlines have access to numbers which will indicate whether a route will work or not. Lets, face it, if a year round daily YUL-SFO flight were feasible, it would be in the airline's interest to do just that, as it would be more efficient.

Like when the "race card" is played without merit, often politicians in Quebec play the "anti-French card" without merit hoping for some gain. In this case, and reading the French article, i really cant see any justifications in the argument. Every city would love a non-stop flight to everywhere.
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YYZatcboy
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:06 pm

Actually I could very well see this as being true... In a limited sort of way.

YUL has a very large video game development and testing /IT industry, with the likes of UBISOFT calling the city home. It could very well be that lack of non stop flights is costing (that particular industry) a significant amount of money. However that one industry alone probably would not generate enough traffic to justify NS flights. And really, YYZ is an hour away at the worst of times, so even factoring in 3 hours more to go to NRT for example (Including waiting at YUL and YYZ), it does not make the travel time that much longer all things considered.

All IMO of course.
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cyeg66
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 1):
Lets make it two destinations in western Asia. Forgot about RJ to AMM.

Thenoflyzone


Lol, I was gonna remind you....

...until I read the second post.  
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2travel2know2
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:21 pm

A major issue regarding why YUL doesn't get international flights other than YYZ may be more attractive for many airlines is that after those airlines get to fly to YYZ, most of the times the airlines can't add more frequencies to Canada.
I bet there is the demand and CM would love to (increase YYZ to daily and) open YUL out of PTY, but CM PTY-YUL could only operate as charter according to the current bilateral.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
Now, we all know that YUL is an extremely well connected city on an international level, but this is mostly concentrated on Europe, Africa, North and Central americas and the Caribbean.

Well connected to Central America? If weekly charters and some AC leisure flights would mean that.
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:22 pm

I thought the A319 was supposed to be the plane for some of those 'long-and-thin' routes within North America like Seattle and San Francisco. Once AC starts getting their 787s it will be interesting to see how much 'love' they really have for YUL.
 
ytz
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:23 pm

What does Montreal have to offer economically these days that would draw strong ties to those cities? Further beyond that, Montreal doesn't have large immigrant communities that would tie to those parts of the world. And given Quebec's immigration policies, this is highly unlikely to change any time soon.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Montreal has as many international connections as it does. From the list provided above, I could only see expansion to SFO and MUC. I can't ever see Montreal supporting service to East or Southeast Asia.

Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over. I remember moving to Canada in 1991 and Montreal was far more significant. There was no concept of the GTA really (or at least not as understood today). And most of Mississauga was still cornfields. The separatist movement sucked a lot more out of Quebec than most Quebecers realize. Recall that most of the big banks had their HQs in Montreal till the late 70s. Large companies like Pratt and Whitney never had facilities in the GTA till the separatist movement got going. And yet, Quebecers are back to flirting with them again.

Today, I don't see what benefit there is to doing business in Montreal. Toronto is better connected. You don't have to worry about language issues. You don't have to worry about geopolitical uncertainties. You can get a diverse workforce which lets you do business in Asia, and you don't have to worry about strange language laws impacting your diverse staff. Taxes are low for your business and your employees, public infrastructure is better and the financial nexus of the country is down the street.

Montreal is a great focal point for Quebec's businesses. For international commerce? Not even close.

(Not to say Toronto is panacea....it's a terrible big city....but comparing Toronto to Montreal....)
 
LAXintl
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:31 pm

I think focusing on "top techno cities" is wrong.

They should look at overall largest markets, not simply a small sub sector of industry.

For example San Francisco O&D is mere 112 daily each way - not even a full A320. Explains why there is not year round service. Seattle is even less - 58 per day, hence no service whatsoever.

There certainly are larger and more broadly beneficial cities Montreal can be connected to then some of the ones on the list.
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Gemuser
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
And given Quebec's immigration policies,

"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Gemuser
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finnishway
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
HEL

There is hardly enough traffic to YYZ from Helsinki why would there be more to YUL?

[Edited 2013-02-24 12:38:58]
 
BMI727
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
(french only)

Isn't this part of the problem? I don't claim to be an expert on Canadian politics, but wouldn't Montreal and Quebec as a whole have much better business prospects if they didn't insist on being militantly francophone and borderline separatist? In some ways it seems as though they ostracize themselves from the rest of the continent.
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Viscount724
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
HEL - is there enough traffic here?

Absolutely not.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
And given Quebec's immigration policies,

"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Yes, Quebec has long had some flexibility in establishing its own immigration policies under an agreement with the federal government. A few months ago I recall a Quebec government mission conducting information sessions in GVA to encourage immigrants to Quebec from the French-speaking part of Switzerland.
 
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Revelation
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
Airlines these days seem to be look for any hole in networks they can take advantage of.

I agree, but one impact of consolidation is that there isn't the imperative to bypass competitors and increasing fuel prices means there isn't the same ability. More and more people will see flights to hubs, which is a trend that will favor YYZ.
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Bobloblaw
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 1):

AMM is not a high tech city and probably brings next to no value to the city of Montreal. Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal? Montreal is once again being left behind thanks to its language laws. The quasi fascist laws of Quebec aren't conducive to attracting hi tech companies.

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):

1991??? Montreal is probably more vibrant today that it was in the 1980s. The city was a dump then. Montreal's heydays were per 1977 and more precisely per 1970. GTA starting growing at Montreal's expenses in the late 1970s.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):

Yes Quebec has their own immigration policies. No there are no border controls between Quebec and the rest of Canada. There in lies the loophole.
 
Viscount724
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:33 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal?

Montreal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers with Bombardier, Bell Textron (I believe all Bell civil helicopters are built at Mirabel), CAE (world's largest flight simulator manufacturer), Pratt & Whitney Canada including their new jet engine test facility at Mirabel where their 2 747SP engine testbeds are based. Mirabel is also the assembly site for the P&W geared turbofan engine model to be used on the Bombardier CSeries also being built at Mirabel along with the CRJ-700/900/1000.

Montreal is also the headquarters of ICAO, the UN agency that deals with civil air transportation. It's also one of the two major offices of IATA (along with GVA), the world's major airline trade association and the location of the largest number of IATA staff.
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:35 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 16):
Question: how much of a tech city is Montreal?

This is a list of technology companies in the city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada: (Source Wikipedia)

Abilis Solutions
Adacel
Agendize
Alcatel-Lucent
Alstom
Artificial Mind and Movement
Avenue 65
Avid
Bell Canada
Bombardier Inc.
CAE
Captivision Media
CGI Group
Ciena
CMC Electronics
Collabora
Coradiant
Data-Tester
Datawind
EA Montreal
Eidos Montreal
Elanex
Ericsson
Exfo
Fujitsu Consulting
Funcom
Google
Gwava
HP
Idilia
iLiv
IBM
Ignition Telecom
Interfacing Technologies
Logibec Groupe Informatique Ltd.
ITMTL
Manwin Canada
Matrox
Messaging Architects
Microïds
Nuance Communications
Octasic
R3D Consulting
SAP AG
Strategy First
Tata Consultancy Services
Technologies Premium
Teleglobe
Ubisoft
VertigoXmedia
Videotron
XipLink
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yyz717
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:19 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over.

So true. Relative to the ascendency of Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver as centres of commerce, Montreal is indeed in long term relative decline, due mainly to their language laws, high taxes and poor economy (all inter-related of course). Montreal was the pre-eminent business capital of Canada until the 60's, but has long since been ecllipsed by Toronto. Montreal will never regain the top spot, and indeed has fallen behind Calgary in terms of HQ domiciles to #3. Winnipeg is also in long term relative decline (once Canada's 3rd largest city, now 8th or 9th) but for different reasons and a different thread.

As someone said, there would be more flights to YUL if the demand was there, but it isn't.

There is actually a good economic argument for FEWER nonstop destinations from YUL. For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ. Few airlines would maintain 2 hubs just 300km apart -- the weaker hub weakens the whole network by duplicating costs. It makes much sense for YUL-SFO/LAX/SEA/NRT/PEK/YVR etc traffic to continue and indeed increasingly route strictly through YYZ. So perhaps YUL will have even fewer nonstop destinations at some point in the future if AC truly decides to restructure its decentralized network to reduce costs.

La Presse, a nominally Federalist paper, can lament all it wants about the lack of nonstop flights, but it should look at the causes, which are anti-English language laws and high taxes. And then there is the high corruption in Quebec society as highlighted by Macleans magazine.....
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ytz
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 18):
This is a list of technology companies in the city of Montreal, Quebec, Canada: (Source Wikipedia)

Mostly obligatory offices to serve Québec, save the odd actual Quebec company. Where do you think Google does more, Montreal or Waterloo?
 
ytz
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Quebec screens and selects their own immigrants. It also imposes strict integration requirements. All quite different from the rest of Canada.

Quebec also maintains mini quasi-embassies overseas to facilitate all this.
 
Noise
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:27 pm

This is so annoying.

Montreal doesn't have the head offices other cities like Toronto, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles have.

Montreal doesn't have the wealth that Toronto and Calgary and Vancouver have.

Montreal isn't as ideally located geographically as Toronto.

I can go on and on and on...

These are the reasons why Montreal doesn't have the non-stop flight it would like to have. Quebecers have been voting in separatist, franco-fascist governments that have been scared away businesses for decades. What else can you expect?

Quoting gemuser (Reply 11):
"Quebec's" immigration policies??? As opposed to Canada's immigration policies? They are different? Or are there immigration checks at provincial boarders???

Gemuser

Yes, Quebec does have it's own immigration policies. A large chunk of them are based on whether you can speak french or not....whereas the rest of Canada focuses more on talent/skills of the individuals...Quebec places an added emphasis on whether you can speak French.
 
ytz
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:37 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
Montreal is still one of the world's major aerospace centers

The GTA and Winnipeg are gunning for this market too. Bombardier is slowly but surely diversifying out of Montreal. Another referendum should speed that up.
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:39 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 19):
For AC to truly restructure and reduce costs, it should shutter the YUL mini-hub and route all west-bound flights thru YYZ.

No. You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR?? If AC did that, they would lose all that traffic to WS, who would simply replace the lost nonstop capacity. To say that YUL population over 3m cant support AC nonstops to YVR pop 2m is not true. Do you think QF should cancel all BNE flights to ADL and PER???SAmre argument. If AC cancelled YUL-LAX, they would lose all that traffic to AA via ORD. Quebeckers would see AC moves and anti-French and boycott the "New AC" Canada is not the USA and cannot operate a hub spoke system like the USA does. There are ample opportunities for P2P flying within Canada.
 
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DesertFlyer
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:51 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Thread starter):
SFO (only summer seasonal non stop service by AC)

I'd be interested to know how this flight does because it's always $700+ for a r/t. Seems like it must get good yields, and it's timed well, but it's also just a single A319.
 
flyyul
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 23):
The GTA and Winnipeg are gunning for this market too. Bombardier is slowly but surely diversifying out of Montreal. Another referendum should speed that up.


Really? Is this fact? Did you come up with this is your long-winded anti-Quebec tirade?

1.) Go through the FP500, over 100 of Canada's top companies are in Montreal or Quebec. The unemployment rate and employment rate are either equal or better than Ontario - and if Ontario keeps on it's current path it's debt to gdp ratio will pass Quebec within 5 years. It's really unfair to compare apples and oranges with Alberta. If Ontario and Quebec had tar sand explorations capabilities - the comparison becomes fair.

2.) do you expect people in Japan, Italy, Germany to speak english at the office? What about China, France? Whether you agree or not, it's franco-Quebeckers right to speak french and to work in a french environment which conforms to the majority of the population. Do I think that Quebec goes overboard and the OQLF is a big farce - of course. But to be so ethnocentric and not appreciate the cultural relativity of Quebec is just a lack of respect for people, which for all intents and purposes share a different culture than mainstream anglo-Canadian culture. These people have the right to be respected. Unfortunately your analysis invokes that they should not have this right.
Montreal remains the most bilingual city on the continent - and essentially all major corporations in Montreal do global business in english.


3.) Canada's top tech company - is now CGI. The HQ is in Montreal (I recall RIM being there not long ago).

3a.) corporate taxes are lower in Quebec than Ontario.

4.) Montreal is not Toronto.. that ship sailed long ago. There's got to be something in to the city if Air Canada is keen of launching Asia/Pacific and Middle East services from Montreal. Even Calin will be the first to admit that there's appreciable demand for Asia/Pacific out of Montreal. If Air Canada could source commercially viable slots, they would launch Montreal-Beijing tomorrow. Do we also need to name the list of carriers wanting to fly to YUL if bilateral rights permitted it. You know very well Turkish, COPA, Emirates, and Qatar would either increase frequencies if the rights permitted so. I will never advocate for opening bilaterals to these places - but Montreal remains an interesting market for airlines (albeit not to the same extent as Toronto no doubt)

5.) The google office in Montreal is pretty dynamic actually. I got to speak with the person who runs Google Canada and he speaks very highly of the "growing" Montreal office.


Once again there's no denying montreal is not Toronto. Montreal has a lot of against it also - taxes, language issues, corruption etc etc. But there's also a lot going for it. A very educated population, a strong base and diversified economy, and resource development will yield positive results as well. Montreal needs global links to global cities where the demand exists. In the case of Beijing, Tokyo, San Francisco, Istanbul, Beirut - the demand is there. No doubt Air Canada will begin to exploit some of this with its 787s effective 2014~2015.

[Edited 2013-02-24 15:22:16]
 
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yyz717
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:03 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR??

Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should do it.

BA no longer operates ANY longhaul flights from UK cities other than London. From MAN the only BA mainlines are to the LHR hub. Perhaps this would be a better model for AC (YUL feeding YYZ) than their current market share and hub duplication shenanigans.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
If AC cancelled YUL-LAX, they would lose all that traffic to AA via ORD.

More likely AC thru YYZ. But so what? It's about profit, not market share.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
Quebeckers would see AC moves and anti-French and boycott the "New AC" Canada

Oh let it happen. Who cares. AC answers to its shareholders alone. If the reduced costs from a streamlined network are greater than a little revenue loss from some silly boycott, then AC still wins.

Quoting ytz (Reply 23):
Bombardier is slowly but surely diversifying out of Montreal. Another referendum should speed that up.

Good. Quebec separatism has always been good for business in Toronto and Calgary.
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ARN
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:17 pm

Stockholm City Council published a report last fall on the same topic. Lack of nonstop longdistance flights reduces local economy to the equivalent of more than 2 billion Swedish crowns annually.

I do not want to start a CPH/OSL vs. ARN war here, but some contributing factors are..

1. The SAS hub in CPH including all transcontinental destinations (albeit EWR and ORD also served from ARN)

2. The proximity of HEL and the geographical position of HEL that enable AY to serve many Asian destinations within the 24 hours timeframe. (This is also doable from ARN to PEK and probably NRT too)

3. The terminal layout of ARN that until now has prevented domestic flights to be interlined fully with international flights.

Stockholm is the major financial center of the Nordic countries. Nevertheless we only see overseas routes to BKK, ORD, EWR, ADD, DOH and PEK. (Some destinations with mostly "ethnic" traffic are excluded).

Stockholm, the Montreal of Europe
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:21 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should do it.

I dont think that AC would be viable as a two hub only airline with all routes either two or from YYZ and YVR. Overtime WS would render AC as a second tier carrier and put them in the same position as CP was in the late 1990s.

I was part of a AA/CP study to see what to do about CP's network. Shrinking CP to YVR only, was actually the worst profitable option.

What youre not getting is that if business cant fly from YYC-YUL, they wont fly from YYC-YYZ or YUL-YYZ. AC would become only a YYZ point of sale airline. That isnt viable. AC would also still be stuck with most of their costs but with much much less revenue. This is why shrinking to profitability with out a complete bankruptcy overall doesnt work. It didnt work for GM and wouldnt work for AC. Shrinking to YYZ and YVR only would actually increase AC's CASM, not lower it.

Your plan for AC was already looked at by CP and it doesnt work.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Oh let it happen. Who cares. AC answers to its shareholders alone. If the reduced costs from a streamlined network are greater than a little revenue loss from some silly boycott, then AC still wins.

Actually as a former Crown Corporation, it doesnt. It has to keep its HDQ in YUL. Also again youre not understanding that it is a lot of revenue that would be lost and a little cost saved. The more an airline shrinks, the higher its CASM goes, unless there is a complete disposal of obligations under bankruptcy.
 
flyyul
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:26 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
What youre not getting is that if business cant fly from YYC-YUL, they wont fly from YYC-YYZ or YUL-YYZ. AC would become only a YYZ point of sale airline. That isnt viable. AC would also still be stuck with most of their costs but with much much less revenue. This is why shrinking to profitability with out a complete bankruptcy overall doesnt work. It didnt work for GM and wouldnt work for AC. Shrinking to YYZ and YVR only would actually increase AC's CASM, not lower it.

YYZ717 is not an airline expert   .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaking as we speak.
 
strfyr51
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:30 pm

It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal, and Quebec City. In 29 years at United I've been to Montreal once and found the city Not nearly as Welcoming as YYC,YYZ, YEG or YVR which is a city I absolutely LOVE.. United is ALWAYS up to make a buck and were the opportunity there TO make it?
I'm Absolutely SURE United would have been all over it.. IMHO of Course
 
flyyul
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:33 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 35):
It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal, and Quebec City

This is factually incorrect. Montreal/Quebec City/Flin Flon Manitoba can be served easily under Canada/USA open skies treaty. Interesting United avoided Montreal and Ottawa until 2003 when it launched service to Chicago and Washington-Dulles (and AC subsequently retreated from both these markets)
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 34):
YYZ717 is not an airline expert .. there are however certain economies of scale by building up a critical mass in YYZ which AC is currently undertaking as we speak.

Growing YYZ maybe a good a good idea, but shrinking AC down to only YYZ (maybe YVR), isnt

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 35):
It's been My understanding over the years that Quebec discouraged USA airlines from flying into Montreal,

Prior to openskies, I think that any new US airline to Montreal had to serve YMX. PE flew to YMX. J7 flew to Montreal but Im not sure which airport.
 
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 35):
In 29 years at United I've been to Montreal once and found the city Not nearly as Welcoming as YYC,YYZ, YEG or YVR which is a city I absolutely LOVE..

To each his own. I've lived in 3 of the 4 cities you mention (YEG/YYC/YVR) but I much prefer visiting YUL where I've never lived but have visited dozens of times (and where I am currently).
 
strfyr51
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:46 pm

Then OBVIOUSLY the return on investment wasn't there was it?? What I'm saying goes Way back to Air Wisconsin and Ransome airlines back in the late 70's back when there was a Montreal Jazz festival, My band was invited there to play and the connections were so bad From the west coast that we had to decline. The only way to get there was to fly to Calgary and change planes there. It wasn't feasible to do with a 16 piece Big band and Equipment
 
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yyz717
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:01 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
Of course there is demand, but remember AC is profit challenged. Its not a market share game so if AC can make more $ routing thru YYZ, they should do it.

I dont think that AC would be viable as a two hub only airline with all routes either two or from YYZ and YVR.

its arguably not viable now with 3 hubs. Also, YUL is too close to YYZ. It is simply not sustainable on its own as a hub.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
Overtime WS would render AC as a second tier carrier

You mean just like WS is now? WS is doing quite well as a so-called 2nd tier carrier. Profitable, growing, good stock price, no unpaid creditors, dividends. AC would do well to emulate WS as a 2nd tier carrier.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
I was part of a AA/CP study to see what to do about CP's network.

CP went bankupt (effectively), as AA recently did. Any AA/CP studies are thus meaningless. No offense. Show me a study by a profitable carrier.....that can be respected.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
The more an airline shrinks, the higher its CASM goes,

Not if its costs drop more than its revenue.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 34):
YYZ717 is not an airline expert ..


Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime  
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 37):
Growing YYZ maybe a good a good idea, but shrinking AC down to only YYZ (maybe YVR), isnt

Depends on the specifics. An airline AC's size though really augers for 2 hubs though: 1 east and 1 west. Not 3. The boutique YUL hub-ette is duplicative in terms of cost and creates network weakness. All just to satisfy Quebec.....
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:03 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 40):
Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime

Pant size? Do you secretly work for Porter .. otherwise might be tough to compete with me  
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:49 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
its arguably not viable now with 3 hubs. Also, YUL is too close to YYZ. It is simply not sustainable on its own as a hub.

YUL is not a true hub with banked flights. Most traffic on AC thru YUL is local. Plus from the maritimes to the eastern USA, YUL is better for connections than YYZ.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
You mean just like WS is now? WS is doing quite well as a so-called 2nd tier carrier.

Ok, wow. Now I know you are deficient in airline thinking. WS is doing well because it lacks all the legacy costs of AC and CP. Youre comparing AC to WS??? AC is more like CP, not WS. WS has a young workforce, few retirees and planes that havent been thru D-check

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
Not if its costs drop more than its revenue.

That never happens without a full bankruptcy clensing

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 36):
Neither is FLYYUL. Not even close. I've actually worked in the industry longer (albeit not now). Happy to compare resumes, degrees, work experience, pant size, etc. anytime

I am. I saw yuor resume, it is impressive. But your comments show a severe lack of understanding of not just airlines but general business.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:22 am

Isnt it normally cheaper to connect through a hub than pay the fares of a direct flight? Anyone can get to all of the cities mentioned on the wishlist with one stop already.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 24):
You mean to tell me there is no demand for nonstops from YUL-YYC/YVR??

The flights could be operated by YVR or YYC based a/c. AC could keep YUL as a domestic spoke quite easily, maybe opb Sky Regional in the future once the E-Jets are transferred over.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Even Calin will be the first to admit that there's appreciable demand for Asia/Pacific out of Montreal. If Air Canada could source commercially viable slots, they would launch Montreal-Beijing tomorrow

The demand currently routes via YVR or YYZ. I dont quite see why eliminating the stop would benefit YUL in any way, in fact the fares would probably increase.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 27):
From MAN the only BA mainlines are to the LHR hub. Perhaps this would be a better model for AC (YUL feeding YYZ) than their current market share and hub duplication shenanigans.

Its an interesting comparison and funnily enough BA sometimes even makes money since becoming "London Airways". However, the UK market is very very different to Canada, though I suppose you could compare LHR & MAN with YYZ & YUL and AMS, CDG & FRA with ORD, JFK & DTW.
Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
 
YYZAMS
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 9):
Let's be honest. Montreal's heydays are over. I remember moving to Canada in 1991 and Montreal was far more significant. There was no concept of the GTA really (or at least not as understood today). And most of Mississauga was still cornfields. The separatist movement sucked a lot more out of Quebec than most Quebecers realize. Recall that most of the big banks had their HQs in Montreal till the late 70s. Large companies like Pratt and Whitney never had facilities in the GTA till the separatist movement got going. And yet, Quebecers are back to flirting with them again.

Today, I don't see what benefit there is to doing business in Montreal. Toronto is better connected. You don't have to worry about language issues. You don't have to worry about geopolitical uncertainties. You can get a diverse workforce which lets you do business in Asia, and you don't have to worry about strange language laws impacting your diverse staff. Taxes are low for your business and your employees, public infrastructure is better and the financial nexus of the country is down the street.

Totally agree. Why are they complaining? When I watch older movies and older music tours YUL is mentioned over YYZ. YUL was part of the circuit and it was were all the major banks were centralized, but the financial giants hightailed it to YYZ and became more stable part of Canada with the threat of seceding. There are lots of businesses in YUL but with the heads of banks and many companies headquarters in the GTA and a higher/denser population there are probably more flights needed.
 
Quokkas
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:21 am

If the economic demand was there, I would expect city-pairs to be served. If the demand isn't there, then it makes sense that airlines would operate from/to the city that has the greater catchment and connectivity

But a question I have, is whether Canada's aviation policy might impact on where airlines fly to/ from in the countries used in the example? Do any bilateral agreements restrict destinations that may be served and impose limits on frequencies? If an airline is only permitted to operate three rotations a week it might not be economic to split them up between several cities or may not be possible if the agreement limits access to just one destination.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
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yyz717
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:04 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 38):
Ok, wow. Now I know you are deficient in airline thinking. WS is doing well because it lacks all the legacy costs of AC and CP.

Umm no. WS is doing well because it has not built up legacy costs, and because AC has failed at managing theirs down. AC has the highest costs of any legacy carrier in NA. You are making excuses for a poorly run legacy carrier (as I would expect from an AA employee).

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 38):
But your comments show a severe lack of understanding of not just airlines but general business.

You quote a study you worked on at AA advising CP? A failing carrier advising a failed carrier? Talk about the blind leading the blind. Mentioning this does not show any understanding of airlines or business; it actually detracts from it. I would keep it quiet.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 29):
The more an airline shrinks, the higher its CASM goes


All these carriers shrunk their networks to reduce costs. Look how profitable US is now. US shuttered PIT as a hub (too close to PHL), DL is shuttering MEM (too close to ATL), US shuttered LAS (too close to PHX), NW shuttered MKE (too close to DTW and MSP. AC should similarly wind down YUL (keep flights to YYZ, YQB, NYC, CDG maybe YVR but nothing else). The resulting network simplification and cost reduction would be significant.



[Edited 2013-02-24 23:26:53]
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
airsmiles
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:50 am

As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me. I have no issue with Quebecois preserving the french language but why make it so hard for visitors in an officially bi-lingual country? It was really interesting hearing various friends and contacts opinions but, what is happening in Quebec seemed insular and hard to reconcile with being a friendly place to do international business. I heard about a lot of workers in Montreal actually living over the border in Ontario as it was much cheaper in taxes. Is it really true Quebec wants to insist that companies change their name to a french language version?

So going back to why Montreal doesn't have enough international non-stop routes, I'd say the language policies and lack of openness in it's approach (i.e. embracement of english visitors) underpin Montreal's relative decline versus Toronto. I went to the latter as well and frankly, they were more welcoming. Like it or not, english is the international language of the world, so it's to Toronto's advantage that they are a english language based city. I don't need the uncertainty and hassle of doing business with Montreal/Quebec, as it's easier to opt for Toronto.

Airlines will open more routes when Montreal has the demand, but I really don't know if the demand will ever come given the current situation there. It's a real shame as Montreal was a pleasant enough a city.
 
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United_fan
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:24 pm

What plane could make it to SIN non-stop , especially with SQ phasing out the A340-500's.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
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United_fan
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):
As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me. I have no issue with Quebecois preserving the french language but why make it so hard for visitors in an officially bi-lingual country?

I agree. I went to the GM assembly plant back in '98,and it was an eye-opening experience.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
flyyul
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting airsmiles (Reply 43):
As UK visitor to Montreal for the first time in the last few weeks, I was shocked that the city was so unfriendly to english speakers. I thought Canada was meant to be bi-lingual, and as a businessman at least, I met unhelpful french only signs everywhere and not much help from the local population in assisting me. I have no issue with Quebecois preserving the french language but why make it so hard for visitors in an officially bi-lingual country? It was really interesting hearing various friends and contacts opinions but, what is happening in Quebec seemed insular and hard to reconcile with being a friendly place to do international business. I heard about a lot of workers in Montreal actually living over the border in Ontario as it was much cheaper in taxes. Is it really true Quebec wants to insist that companies change their name to a french language version?

So going back to why Montreal doesn't have enough international non-stop routes, I'd say the language policies and lack of openness in it's approach (i.e. embracement of english visitors) underpin Montreal's relative decline versus Toronto. I went to the latter as well and frankly, they were more welcoming. Like it or not, english is the international language of the world, so it's to Toronto's advantage that they are a english language based city. I don't need the uncertainty and hassle of doing business with Montreal/Quebec, as it's easier to opt for Toronto.

Airlines will open more routes when Montreal has the demand, but I really don't know if the demand will ever come given the current situation there. It's a real shame as Montreal was a pleasant enough a city.

Really unfortunate you had such a bad experience. The majority of people I speak who visit the city typically have positive experiences with customer service, tourism related inquiries etc.

Look we've got isolated instances of bad service and language tensions.. but lonely plant put is in the top 10 ciites of 2013

http://www.tourisme-montreal.org/Pre...MxMjMxBQZTb3J0QnkFCURhdGUgRGVzYw==

[Edited 2013-02-25 05:39:47]
 
drgmobile
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 33):
Prior to openskies, I think that any new US airline to Montreal had to serve YMX. PE flew to YMX. J7 flew to Montreal but Im not sure which airport.

This is completely baseless. Dorval has always had U.S. carriers and transborder flights.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:00 pm

Quoting flyyul (Reply 26):
Do we also need to name the list of carriers wanting to fly to YUL if bilateral rights permitted it. You know very well Turkish, COPA, Emirates, and Qatar would either increase frequencies if the rights permitted so. I will never advocate for opening bilaterals to these places - but Montreal remains an interesting market for airlines (albeit not to the same extent as Toronto no doubt)

If YUL wants more connectivity, YUL should settle with the airlines who want to fly there now and not to be picky because IST, PTY, DXB and DOH aren't global cities in all the sense of the word but just major airline hubs.
Getting flights to major hubs is the next best thing to non-stop flights to those YUL wish-destinations.
Sure it seems Quebec has a saying in immigration but when it comes to bilaterals, not a saying in YUL promotion
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EL-AL
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RE: YUL: Lack Of Non Stop Flights Costing City 300M $

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:01 pm

Quoting point2point (Reply 2):
TLV


TVL probably doable.....

No it is not. Once the stupid policy of forcing any international flight to land in Montreal was cancelled, El Al moved all it's flights to Toronto, the sole destination out of Israel to Canada till this day.

I don't really know why, but large part of the jewish community in Montreal moved to Toronto since the late 1970s, so there is no economic reason to fly directly from Israel to Montreal.

Even YYZ holds only a 767 and not a larger airplane on the route (both LY & AC). From 2002 till 2007 YYZ flights flew onward to LAX with 747 or 777, and before that some flights passed via JFK because Canada alone didn't have enough traffic to fill anything bigger then a 767.
every day is a good day to fly