sankaps
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:41 pm

There was once a time when Delta had a hub at Dallas DFW, while Northwest too had a fairly strong mainline presence. However on making some bookings for an upcoming MSP-DFW-LGA trip, I was surprised and disappointed to see that the only options I had on Delta was on ERJs and CRJs for both legs -- no mainline aircraft at all! Especially surprised to see that for the MSP-DFW leg, as it is a fairly major route involving a DL hub -- DL only flies E75s or CR9s on that route, while AA flies 738s.

Sad to see DL's relative decline in both MSP and DFW. Where are they flying all their mainline jets if not on routes like this?
 
tommy767
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:50 pm

Well out of MSP these days it's like large RJ city for DL. Even EWR-MSP is mostly CR9 and E175 except during the summer where an M88 or M90 makes an appearance.

As for DFW, I think the overall strategy is high frequency with RJs to DTW, MEM, MSP, SLC. DFW-ATL still gets plenty of 757s.
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usflyer msp
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:53 pm

NW/DL mainline has been gone on MSP-DFW for quite some time, since before the merger. It really boils down to geography. MSP is so far north that it is not a very useful connecting hub for DFW residents (unless they are heading to Canada or the Dakotas). This means that DL focuses on the O/D market which DL serves with 70/90 seat RJ's for frequency reasons. AA can connect MSP with the Southwest, Southeast, and Latin America via DFW, so it can support mainline on the route.
 
N126DL
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:54 pm

ATL-DFW is a mix of 88/90's and 757. They have a few A319/A320 from SLC and DTW. Just part of the "rights sizing" in MSP, perhaps?
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Alsatian
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
while AA flies 738s.

And MD80s

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 1):
As for DFW, I think the overall strategy is high frequency with RJs

There are 7 DL roundtrips (E75/CR9) on weekdays on the DFW - DTW route while AA offers 6 daily flights.

[Edited 2013-02-24 13:16:03]
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deltacto
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:04 pm

Checking Flights Schedules for February 25:


Flights // Mainline
ATL - 12 / 12
CVG - 3 / 0
DTW - 6 / 3
MEM - 3 / 0
MSP - 7 / 0
LGA - 7 / 0
JFK - 1 / 0
SLC - 4 / 2

Total 43 / 17

Note - All 7 LGA flights, 3 of the MSP flights, and 2 of the DTW flights are operated by E-170's and E-175's
 
Bobloblaw
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:29 pm

AA is stronger on every one of those routes than is DL. Only on ATL is DL as strong or stronger than AA. When you have a mega hub like DFW the locals plus all the connects from AA outweigh the connections DL can generate from their hubs, except ATL. What you're seeing is DFW overpowering smaller hubs like DTW or MSP.
 
sankaps
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Is there anything unique to DFW going on? DL has cut dramatically at most outstations in the past 5 years. At my home airport, ATL used to see all mainline with mostly 757s; now, we see nothing larger than a 320

Precisely, though DFW seems to be one of the larger metros with disappearing DL mainline service. Which is why I asked in my original post, where IS Delta flying all their mainline jets to?
 
DTWPurserBoy
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:21 pm

[quote=usflyer msp,reply=2]NW/DL mainline has been gone on MSP-DFW for quite some time, since before the merger. It really boils down to geography. MSP is so far north that it is not a very useful connecting hub for DFW residents (unless they are heading to Canada or the Dakotas). This means that DL focuses on the O/D market which DL serves with 70/90 seat RJ's for frequency reasons. AA can connect MSP with the Southwest, Southeast, and Latin America via DFW, so it can support mainline on the route.

The late great Braniff International easily filled 3-4 MSP-DFW non-stops a day back in the '70's--mostly 727-200's but some -100's and the odd DC8.
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Bobloblaw
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:40 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 14):
The late great Braniff International easily filled 3-4 MSP-DFW non-stops a day back in the '70's--mostly 727-200's but some -100's and the odd DC8.

No they didnt fill it. BN probably had a 50-60% LF at fares that would be equal to $700 today.
 
usairways787
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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 1):
As for DFW, I think the overall strategy is high frequency with RJs to DTW, MEM, MSP, SLC. DFW-ATL still gets plenty of 757s.

It's slow season here, so we aren't getting any 757's really, the other day was an exception. Only one we would touch would be 1482, even today it was an 88. Spring break comes, things will be up gauged to a 75.

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 10):

AA is stronger on every one of those routes than is DL. Only on ATL is DL as strong or stronger than AA. When you have a mega hub like DFW the locals plus all the connects from AA outweigh the connections DL can generate from their hubs, except ATL. What you're seeing is DFW overpowering smaller hubs like DTW or MSP.

100% correct. 90% of the traffic we deal with is connecting bags out of DFW. The only one that usually isn't would be SLC. Other than that, it's mostly connecting.

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Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:27 am

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 15):
No they didnt fill it. BN probably had a 50-60% LF at fares that would be equal to $700 today.

I don't know--I worked a lot of full flights and got bumped off more than one trying to get back to MSP from DFW. Like all airlines, it depeneded on the time of year and the time of the day.

Plus we had MANY flights that originated in MSP or DFW and stopped in TUL, MCI, DSM, OKC or OMA before terminating. We had lots of thru pax.
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SESGDL
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 1):
Well out of MSP these days it's like large RJ city for DL. Even EWR-MSP is mostly CR9 and E175 except during the summer where an M88 or M90 makes an appearance.

This is the same thing that has happened at every DL hub other than ATL. The ratio of mainline to regional jets has dramatically decreased since the merger, except at ATL.

Quoting n126dl (Reply 3):
ATL-DFW is a mix of 88/90's and 757. They have a few A319/A320 from SLC and DTW. Just part of the "rights sizing" in MSP, perhaps?

Not really, DL hasn't had significant mainline service on MSP-DTW for years, and only recently did DTW-DFW regain more substantial mainline service. DL mainline service reappears this summer, however, on MSP-DTW.

Quoting sankaps (Reply 7):
Precisely, though DFW seems to be one of the larger metros with disappearing DL mainline service. Which is why I asked in my original post, where IS Delta flying all their mainline jets to?

ATL mostly, with around 700 mainline flights scheduled this summer, more than any airline hub ever before. MSP still sees the second largest number of mainline flights in DL's system with approximately 190 mainline flights this summer, not too shabby.

Jeremy
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:46 am

The situation is really no different up here at ORD.

ORD-ATL is served on MD-88s/DC-9-50s and 1x 757. There's also the occasional token A320/A319 sent 1x daily to DTW and MSP each, and the rest are all on E-175s and CRJ-900s.

SLC, MEM, CVG, JFK and LGA are all on RJs.

Back in the day, I flew an A319 from DFW to DTW and a DC-9 from MSP to DFW on the return. I think the DC-9 retirement somewhat signaled the "end" of mainline on routes like DFW-MSP and DFW-MEM.

In any case, its more logical for DL to deploy higher-frequency flights using a right-sized cabin configuration on an important market like DFW to MSP.

**EDIT** There is also the 4x weekly ORD-CDG flight on a 763, which doesn't count  Wink

[Edited 2013-02-24 20:47:45]
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tommy767
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting deltacto (Reply 5):
Total 43 / 17

Note - All 7 LGA flights, 3 of the MSP flights, and 2 of the DTW flights are operated by E-170's and E-175's

60 flights a day from DFW? That's actually pretty impressive for DL, RJs or not.
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steex
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):
60 flights a day from DFW? That's actually pretty impressive for DL, RJs or not.

Those shouldn't be added together - it's 43 flights, 17 of which are mainline.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):
60 flights a day from DFW? That's actually pretty impressive for DL, RJs or not.

That's what happens when airlines merge   You'd be shocked by how busy Terminal E at DFW is on a Tuesday AM at all parts of the concourse. US Airways has at least 7-8 mainline a/c that RON at DFW. It's truly incredible.
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:02 pm

I had a post on here from yesterday where I provided some data, not sure why it was deleteted....

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
Sad to see DL's relative decline in both MSP and DFW. Where are they flying all their mainline jets if not on routes like this?

DL has not or is not "declining" in either DFW or MSP. Sure, DFW is nothing like it was during the DL hub era, but that has been gone now for over 8 years. In fact, DL has grown somewhat recently in DFW, with the addition of the LGA flights, and also adding additional frequencies to DTW, MSP, and SLC. I would not be surprised to see the addition of LAX and/or SEA if DL is serious about building up those markets and/or feeding their international flights.

Changes in the number of "mainline" flights in DFW are due to the following:
1. DC-9 retirement - the vast majority of mainline from DTW, MSP, and MEM was DC-9-30s where the defacto replacement has been CR9s and E75s.
2. Hub realignment- MEM and CVG
3. Mergers & network changes with the combined NW & DL netowkr

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 2):
NW/DL mainline has been gone on MSP-DFW for quite some time, since before the merger.

June 2005: 7 daily flights (6 mainline + 1 ARJ) ~700 daily seats
June 2007: 6 daily flights (3 mainline, 1 CR9, 2 50 seat RJs) ~ 500 daily seats
June 2009: 6 daily flights (4 mainline, 2 2-class RJs) ~550 daily seats
June 2013: 7 daily flights (1 mainline, 6 2-class RJs) ~ 600 daily seats

The majority of mainline was historically DC-9s. For the past few years, mainline on both DFW-DTW & MSP gets reduced or even eliminated altogether during the winter months, but returns for the spring-summer.

DFW-MSP gets an A320 starting again April.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 5):
Flights // Mainline
ATL - 12 / 12
CVG - 3 / 0
DTW - 6 / 3
MEM - 3 / 0
MSP - 7 / 0
LGA - 7 / 0
JFK - 1 / 0
SLC - 4 / 2

Total 43 / 17

Note - All 7 LGA flights, 3 of the MSP flights, and 2 of the DTW flights are operated by E-170's and E-175's

SLC gains another mainline flight this summer, for a total of 3/5 mainline flights

It is important to note that all but the 6am DFW-MEM flight are on 2-class RJs or mainline equipment. Thus 42/43 flights have a premium cabin. That is pretty impressive in its own right and not found in too many markets.

At least they aren't flying CRJ-200s on MSP-DFW like NW was for a period after bankruptcy.

Quoting usairways787 (Reply 10):
It's slow season here, so we aren't getting any 757's really, the other day was an exception. Only one we would touch would be 1482, even today it was an 88. Spring break comes, things will be up gauged to a 75.

Yep, although by June DFW-ATL goes all-MD90.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
This is the same thing that has happened at every DL hub other than ATL. The ratio of mainline to regional jets has dramatically decreased since the merger, except at ATL.

Exactly.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
Not really, DL hasn't had significant mainline service on MSP-DTW for years, and only recently did DTW-DFW regain more substantial mainline service. DL mainline service reappears this summer, however, on MSP-DTW.

Exactly, really since about 2010 when the DC-9-30/40s were retired.

NW had 172 DC-9s at its peak in 2000, now down to about 19 DC-9-50s that remain primarily flying short hops out of ATL.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
That's what happens when airlines merge You'd be shocked by how busy Terminal E at DFW is on a Tuesday AM at all parts of the concourse.

Exactly. DL even picked-up another gate, now has E17.
 
tommy767
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:53 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 16):
That's what happens when airlines merge You'd be shocked by how busy Terminal E at DFW is on a Tuesday AM at all parts of the concourse. US Airways has at least 7-8 mainline a/c that RON at DFW. It's truly incredible.

That and thanks to the merger, DFW is one of the largest spokes for UA -- some 40 flights a day out of DFW as well.
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nickofatlanta
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:35 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
ATL mostly, with around 700 mainline flights scheduled this summer, more than any airline hub ever before. MSP still sees the second largest number of mainline flights in DL's system with approximately 190 mainline flights this summer, not too shabby.

I know that ATL is obviously a powerhouse hub, but did not realise the differential between it and the second largest hub in MSP. Having more than three times as many mainline flights is a massive difference!!
 
sankaps
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:41 pm

Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 19):
I know that ATL is obviously a powerhouse hub, but did not realise the differential between it and the second largest hub in MSP. Having more than three times as many mainline flights is a massive difference!!



Hence now, even more than before, this rings true: "When you die and go to heaven / hell, you still need to change planes in Atlanta"!  
 
jr
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
I would not be surprised to see the addition of LAX and/or SEA if DL is serious about building up those markets and/or feeding their international flights.

There is no one who would like to see that happening more than me!

Quoting sankaps (Reply 20):
Hence now, even more than before, this rings true: "When you die and go to heaven / hell, you still need to change planes in Atlanta"!

Unless you live in DFW and can go non-stop. But can you transit through hell to heaven?   Maybe I have to stick with DL!
I've flown on 9V-SPK.
 
kl911
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:36 pm

Quoting sankaps (Thread starter):
I was surprised and disappointed to see that the only options I had on Delta was on ERJs and CRJs for both legs -- no mainline aircraft at all!

Is there really so much difference in seat pitch etc between mainline and RJ? I would think that a small plane is more quiet inside and has faster boarding etc. Or am I wrong?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
Changes in the number of "mainline" flights in DFW are due to the following:
1. DC-9 retirement - the vast majority of mainline from DTW, MSP, and MEM was DC-9-30s where the defacto replacement has been CR9s and E75s.
2. Hub realignment- MEM and CVG
3. Mergers & network changes with the combined NW & DL netowkr

All true, of course, but I suspect that if you compare 2005 and the present, you'll find the number of seats down pretty dramatically both at DFW and at most outstations.
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PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Sad To See DL Mainline Disappearing From DFW

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
All true, of course, but I suspect that if you compare 2005 and the present, you'll find the number of seats down pretty dramatically both at DFW and at most outstations.

Yep, exactly. NW shed a bunch of capacity during bankruptcy. 2005 was in a different era, in a different cost structure, a significantly lower cost of fuel, different revenue environment, different economic factors.

DL is about 20% smaller than what NW and DL were together as stand alone airlines.

Like you say, what DFW has seen by DL is very similar to most outstations and most markets since 2005. More 2-class RJs, less total capacity, and in many cases more frequency.

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