phxa340
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JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:46 am

A JAL Chairman has stated that he is not keen on being 100% reliant on Boeing products and has been in discussions in the past to introduce a new supplier.

This would represent a historic shift with Japanese airlines as for the most part they have relied on Boeing as their sole supplier. I wonder if this is hot air from the 787 mess or if he genuinely wants to introduce A into the fleet.

This duplicates many Airlines thoughts like LH, UA, AA, QF etc that don't want to rely on either just B or A.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100488815
 
PHX787
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:57 am

It's probably current hot air but it is quite understandable. Airlines these days are straying away from being all-A or all-B, either intentionally or through mergers. Remember for a while NH experimented with the A320....but i'm not sure how that fared from them (do they still have any?)

But with JL, the "reliance" on the 787 under this grounding should be treated as yet another delay. While crappy, we all must realize that the 787 is a completely new piece of technology...I will never see JL order the A350 or A330. They simply do not serve the roles that the 77W already fills for JL.

Plus, having a single supplier does make some things roll swimmingly- no need to train crews to completely different cockpit setups.
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DocLightning
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:52 am

It is a very stark sign of how the 787 debacle has killed Boeing's goodwill with customers.

But I think that the number of new airliners being ordered is such that there is room for a third supplier. I wonder if anyone will step up to the plate and start offering at least a 737/A320 competitor, if not a 787/A350 competitor. Lockheed-Martin? Embraer?
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jetblueguy22
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:08 am

Quoting phxa340 (Thread starter):
I wonder if this is hot air from the 787 mess or if he genuinely wants to introduce A into the fleet.

I would think he would want to introduce Airbus to the fleet. I don't think any Chairman of a legitimate company would buy an aircraft because they are mad at their biggest supplier. They have to make it work in their fleet and route network. If they can do it, why not give it a try? Who knows they may like the aircraft even more.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
we all must realize that the 787 is a completely new piece of technology...

As a big 787 fan that is good and all, but there isn't an excuse for what is happening. Sure all new aircraft go through teething periods, but nothing like this. Delays are one thing, but to have it enter service and be a big part of the fleet, only to have it grounded, is not a good thing. Though one has to wonder, if they had A350s on order how would this be any different?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I wonder if anyone will step up to the plate and start offering at least a 737/A320 competitor, if not a 787/A350 competitor. Lockheed-Martin? Embraer?

I think the most likely has to be Embraer. They seem to be the strongest regional aircraft producer at the moment. To jump from the E195 to a Boeing/Airbus type narrowbody probably wouldn't be that big of a leap. The question then becomes though, how good will the aircraft be, how will airlines with established fleets react to a completely different type than they already operate, and how will Boeing and Airbus react to someone stepping into their territory. Certainly some interesting things to consider.
Pat

[Edited 2013-02-24 22:21:58]
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Lufthansa
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:15 am

he has raised a good point though.
In the past Japan was very much into relationships in who they did business with. But, that doesn't give anybody
any incentive to sharpen their pencils when its time to buy. And it would be a very very rare occurrence for a single
supplier to continuously for decades provide the best deal when asked every time. I think he is right to question it. He owes it to his companies stakeholders to extract the best possible deal for them. The chinese certainly know no such loyalty. I bet they got better deals too!
 
Horstroad
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:22 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 4):
To jump from the E195 to a Boeing/Airbus type narrowbody probably wouldn't be that big of a leap.

once you are successful in building airliners, is it that much of a bigger step to an aircraft five times the size of what you have built before than it is to an aircraft just twice the size? I could really imagine embraer designing a long haul twin aisle aircraft. only problem, as you mentioned, is to make the customers buy the product.
 
columba
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:24 am

What could Airbus offer JAL that could be of interest for them now ? I doubt that they would add A330s to their fleet given their huge 767 and 777 fleet. A320NEOs ? A350s ? Or even A380s ?
Many airlines have decided for a mixed 787/A350 fleet.
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AeroWesty
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:33 am

Quoting phxa340 (Thread starter):
I wonder if this is hot air from the 787 mess or if he genuinely wants to introduce A into the fleet.

It's highly doubtful this is blowing hot air. The article quotes the chairman as saying:

Quote:

"In a normal market there is tremendous risk from relying on one vendor. In order to provide good products at good prices, at lower prices a dual vendor system is a must."

...

The JAL chairman said he was involved in discussions about introducing another vendor when the accident occurred in January.

The new chairman is looking at fleet purchases in purely business terms, which is his responsibility to do for the board and shareholders.
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flood
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:36 am

Quoting columba (Reply 6):
What could Airbus offer JAL that could be of interest for them now ?

Unfortunately it's a subscription article, posted sometime earlier in the week on flightglobal...

JAL to consider Airbus aircraft for 777 replacement:
Japan Airlines, which operates only Boeing widebody aircraft, will consider Airbus aircraft as a viable option to replace its older Boeing 777s.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rcraft-for-777-replacement-382514/
 
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Francoflier
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:40 am

It seems Japan's flag carriers unquestioned loyalty to Boeing has taken a hit.

Then again, being such invested and dedicated customers of the 787 and having to suffer the full blow of Boeing's bad luck/screwups will put any loyalty to the test.

They also knew they were the first customers and that there is always a risk in being that. They got the appropriate discount.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Lockheed-Martin? Embraer?

If Airbus and Boeing, who have been designing and manufacturing airliners non stop for the last few decades, struggle to get any new design out without any major hiccup and risking bankruptcy, I can't imagine any of these would fare any better with less experience in the field. The 787 is really pointy-tip-of-the-spearhead stuff. Even Airbus remained more conservative with the A350 design.
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spacecadet
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:41 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 7):
The new chairman is looking at fleet purchases in purely business terms, which is his responsibility to do for the board and shareholders.

On the other hand, the quote sounds a lot like a negotiation to me. Boeing's not going to be inclined to give their best price if they don't seriously think there's any competition for a contract.

Unless he thinks Boeing's about to go under, I don't see what "risk" there is in relying on one vendor. The only risk is in that vendor thinking you're a bunch of chumps and overcharging you.
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Francoflier
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:55 am

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 10):
On the other hand, the quote sounds a lot like a negotiation to me.

A threat is only taken seriously if it is known to be real.

I doubt Airbus or Boeing go into negotiation in Japan not knowing what their respective chances exactly are. No matter what these airlines claim.
I think Airbus stood a better chance of selling KC-45s to the USAF than they do selling aircrafts to JAL and ANA. Everybody knows that and it probably skews the negotiations.

This exec is right, an Airbus order would, if anything else, shake both manufacturers up and help these 2 airlines be taken a little more seriously.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:08 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I will never see JL order the A350 or A330. They simply do not serve the roles that the 77W already fills for JL.

A350-900 is a perfect replacement for JAL's fleet of 777-200ERs.

Quoting columba (Reply 6):
What could Airbus offer JAL that could be of interest for them now ?

See above, please.
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TC957
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:34 am

I feel Airbus should be looking at developing a light-weight A350 suitable for domestic and short-haul operations. Potential must be there with not only the Japanese big two but for China and the Middle East markets too.
 
sankaps
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:44 am

I completely agree with the JAL Chairman's comment. It is Procurement 101: Do not ever let a supplier believe you will choose no one else. Which is why I shook my head in disbelief back when Bethune declared an exclusive Boeing relationship for CO. You need to keep your suppliers honest! And you can never predict when needs and situations change.
 
777way
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:49 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

They still have the 320s but rpobably on their way out, also JAS operated A300 which later went to JAL with merger and retained for almost ten years.
 
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
JAS operated A300 which later went to JAL with merger and retained for almost ten years.

And I loved flying on them!   
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:12 am

I highly recommend this relevant summary: http://www.boeing.com/aboutus/intern...ackgrounders/japanbackgrounder.pdf

What's everyone's take on this: "Boeing-related work supports approximately 22,000 direct and indirect jobs in Japan, a figure equal to nearly 43 percent of Japan’s total aerospace-related employment."
 
sankaps
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:27 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 17):
What's everyone's take on this: "Boeing-related work supports approximately 22,000 direct and indirect jobs in Japan, a figure equal to nearly 43 percent of Japan’s total aerospace-related employment."

It should not have any impact on the fleet decisions of privately owned Japanese airlines. If it does (and that is how it appears), then it is a form of protectionism / unfair competition.

Airbus/EADS probably employs a larger proportion of Europe's aerospace-related workers, but I cant think of any major European airline that has a policy or practice of buying Airbus only.
 
nrt1011
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:22 am

The Japan-US relationship is special and for the past 60+ years this has been a more important factor that price competitiveness. That being said, it is certainly against Procurement 101 as someone mentioned above. The future looks interesting for Japan Aviation but don't expect too much too soon. Japan moves at a glacial pace (I did live there for 8 years by the way)
 
ecbomberman
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:31 am

The Japanese are not into blowing hot air out of the blue. They are not attention grabbers... Trust me....
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su184
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:45 am

Ummm, do I smell negotiations for new orders soon ( maybe 748i's ) and they want to get good concessions from Boeing based on 787 problems,,!!
 
Motorhussy
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting sankaps (Reply 18):
It should not have any impact on the fleet decisions of privately owned Japanese airlines. If it does (and that is how it appears), then it is a form of protectionism / unfair competition.

Are any of the investors in JL and NH also investors in Japan's aerospace industry and, if so, do they supply Boeing?
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Flyglobal
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:40 am

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 17):
I highly recommend this relevant summary: http://www.boeing.com/aboutus/intern...ackgrounders/japanbackgrounder.pdf

What's everyone's take on this: "Boeing-related work supports approximately 22,000 direct and indirect jobs in Japan, a figure equal to nearly 43 percent of Japan’s total aerospace-related employment."



reading this shows that beyond discussions there will be a lot of lobby activities from Boeing along the line of challenging American - Japanese relations. For Boeing it is important to avoid that Airbus gets a foot in the door. Because we all know: Once a foot in the door, a whole body will follow.
We know from cats: where the head passes through, the whole cat will slip through.

Regards

Flyglobal
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:31 pm

From my limited experience with Japanese culture, I'd regard the Chairman's comments as typical of the Japanese way of 'getting the message' across with complete politeness whilst avoiding confrontation.

It does not apportion blame to anyone, anything or any particular circumstance, but the message is clear that JAL are incredibly not amused.

It is completely antithetical to the Akbar Al Baker style of Qatar; Gentlemens' Club compared to bar room brawling.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
While crappy, we all must realize that the 787 is a completely new piece of technology

Absolutely no excuse in this modern age. No excuse, whatsoever.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):
As a big 787 fan that is good and all, but there isn't an excuse for what is happening.

  

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I will never see JL order the A350 or A330. They simply do not serve the roles that the 77W already fills for JL.

I see the A359 as being a perfect slam dunk to replace the B772s.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 10):
On the other hand, the quote sounds a lot like a negotiation to me.

It's just not the Japanese way of doing things; they simply wouldn't be what they would consider to be so disrepectful, IMO.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 20):

The Japanese are not into blowing hot air out of the blue. They are not attention grabbers... Trust me....

Totally agree; let's see if Akbar Al Baker now gets on the bandwagon to stir the pot a little more....

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LY777
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:35 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 18):
Airbus/EADS probably employs a larger proportion of Europe's aerospace-related workers, but I cant think of any major European airline that has a policy or practice of buying Airbus only.

Are you joking?
IB, TP, LX, U2, EI, to name a few, have an all-Airbus fleet...
LH is also leaning towards an all-Airbus fleet (except their 748s) as they are about to phase out their 737s.
Same for AZ (except their 772s)
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ktachiya
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:39 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 12):

A350-900 is a perfect replacement for JAL's fleet of 777-200ERs

Really??? From the direction they are heading, it seems that they are in favour of giving more market share to ANA, the LCC's or even Skymark for int'l operations.

The new B773ER's being reconfigured only have about 230 seats or so, down from the current 272. It seems that they are searching for more acft the size of the A332 at the biggest, if not even smaller.

The once majestic airlines with so many B747's in their fleet seems like they are voluntarily shrinking.
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Carpethead
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 6):
What could Airbus offer JAL that could be of interest for them now ? I doubt that they would add A330s to their fleet given their huge 767 and 777 fleet. A320NEOs ? A350s ? Or even A380s ?

Other than a few old 763s, nothing needs replacing in the JAL fleet. Their entire narrowbody fleet is very new.
The early model 772s are still a few years away from replacement. Unless they want a small fleet of A330s, they should await a couple of more years, to decide on what shakes out of the 787 mess and if the A350 goes ahead on production as schedule.
Then again, Airbus may offer something unique like a lease on 10 or so A330s then trade in for a large A350 order to replace their entire 777 fleet.
 
kl911
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:07 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
But I think that the number of new airliners being ordered is such that there is room for a third supplier. I wonder if anyone will step up to the plate and start offering at least a 737/A320 competitor, if not a 787/A350 competitor. Lockheed-Martin? Embraer?

I say REKKOF !  
Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 17):
What's everyone's take on this: "Boeing-related work supports approximately 22,000 direct and indirect jobs in Japan, a figure equal to nearly 43 percent of Japan’s total aerospace-related employment."

That should not influence private companies in making their decisions.

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 12):
A350-900 is a perfect replacement for JAL's fleet of 777-200ERs.

That is correct, and I wonder why Airbus has not a larger share in Japan
 
Carpethead
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:10 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Remember for a while NH experimented with the A320

That experiment has lasted over 20 years. They still have close to 20 remaining.
Many were on their way out as the new 738s are delivered but seeing that nothing from Everett outside of three 777s are going to be delivered, they may keep them longer as there is a shortage of lift.

The 787 grounding also throws a wrench in to the 763 & 744D retirement too. They have even sent eight 763s & 744Ds to the scrapper over than last six months.

Quoting ktachiya (Reply 26):
The new B773ER's being reconfigured only have about 230 seats or so, down from the current 272. It seems that they are searching for more acft the size of the A332 at the biggest, if not even smaller.

Not really, the A332 configured to JAL's heavy premium configuration would seat only 180 similar to its 787s.
Although, the notion of replacing the relatively new long-haul 777s fleet is pretty thin, JAL does have a need for a A359-sized replacement for its domestic 772s & 773s later this decade. If Airbus can get the A350 or perhaps a domesticated A330-lite into JAL's fleet, it would very easy to replace the by-then aging long-haul fleet of 777s next decade.
 
sankaps
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting LY777 (Reply 25):
Are you joking?
IB, TP, LX, U2, EI, to name a few, have an all-Airbus fleet...
LH is also leaning towards an all-Airbus fleet (except their 748s) as they are about to phase out their 737s.
Same for AZ (except their 772s)

LCCs will always have one aircraft type -- but I do not think they have a *policy* of buying Airbus because they are European. Indeed EasyJet has indicated they may switch back to 737s. And Ryanair is all Boeing, but again not due to a policy but due to picking one that met their commercial needs the best.

For non-LCCs (which is what my comment referred to, though I should have been clearer), the only MAJOR airline in your list to have all Airbus is Iberia. Again not a result of any policy, but of commercial decisions made after evaluating both suppliers and their offers. If LH and AZ appear to be leaning Airbus (despite the presence of numerous Boeing aircraft in their fleets), it is again based on evaluation of both options and picking the ones that work best for them.

Bottom-line: No European airline has ever said or signaled via their actions that they would only buy Airbus by policy, and none of them have signed exclusive supplier deals like CO and AA did with Boeing in the past.

[Edited 2013-02-25 05:45:50]
 
abba
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:32 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 9):
It seems Japan's flag carriers unquestioned loyalty to Boeing has taken a hit.



I think that we have to see this in the bigger picture. Up through the 80'ties and '90'ties Japan was considered politically as the main culprit when unemployment in the US got a hit. This was due to Japan's huge trade surplus. Often it was seen that one of the Japanese airlines placed a major order for Boeing aircraft when such discussion got a little too heated. We have to remember that the interaction between government and private enterprise in Japan is much closer than what we usually see in the West.

However, now is the situation such that China has taken over the role of being the culprit - and as a consequence the Japanese airlines feel more free not to take political considerations into account when they order new planes for their fleets. Personally, I have been waiting for this to happen sooner or later as it is a anomaly that two airlines as big as NH and JL both are both almost exclusive Boeing customers.
 
airbazar
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:41 pm

Quoting phxa340 (Thread starter):
This would represent a historic shift with Japanese airlines as for the most part they have relied on Boeing as their sole supplier. I wonder if this is hot air from the 787 mess or if he genuinely wants to introduce A into the fleet.

This may seem obvious but Airbus is not the only non-Boeing supplier in the world. Could they be looking at regional jets to lower the costs of their regional flying?
 
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breiz
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:57 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 28):
That is correct, and I wonder why Airbus has not a larger share in Japan

As explained in several threads, that's political.
The earlier breakthroughs for Airbus were the orders from JAS (A300s) and ANA (A320s & A321s).
Together with the A300s, JAS got the Airbus' livery as their new one.
Since then, the start-up StarFlyer is entirely equipped with A320s.
 
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:22 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 3):

I think the most likely has to be Embraer. They seem to be the strongest regional aircraft producer at the moment. To jump from the E195 to a Boeing/Airbus type narrowbody probably wouldn't be that big of a leap. The question then becomes though, how good will the aircraft be, how will airlines with established fleets react to a completely different type than they already operate, and how will Boeing and Airbus react to someone stepping into their territory.

Implicit in this is: can EMB make a decent ROI if they do move into this space?

Quoting francoflier (Reply 9):
It seems Japan's flag carriers unquestioned loyalty to Boeing has taken a hit.

Then again, being such invested and dedicated customers of the 787 and having to suffer the full blow of Boeing's bad luck/screwups will put any loyalty to the test.

Indeed.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 9):
They also knew they were the first customers and that there is always a risk in being that. They got the appropriate discount.

I don't think so. We're talking four years late!

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 10):
Unless he thinks Boeing's about to go under, I don't see what "risk" there is in relying on one vendor.

Plenty of risks:
> The risk they'll tell you that they can change core technology, manufacturing and supply chain at the same time and not be late
> The risk they'll put together an airplane with the wrong fasteners so they can appear to make a rollout date
> The risk they'll hire people that don't know how to install fasteners and then say the issue was the blueprints
> The risk they'll have a major outsourced join fail during testing and say it was due to a poor interface spec
> The risk they'll use a subcontractor to design a panel and it will prove to not have decent FOD resistance
> The risk they'll use a leading-edge battery design and it'll have unexplained fires after EIS

An A350 purchase would put Boeing on notice that there are consequences to their dismal performance.

I doubt it will happen, though, because of the close relationship in the aerospace business between Boeing and Japan. Keep in mind that extends to the Japanese buying F-15s and AWACS from Boeing, and Japan's current nervousness about China.
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sankaps
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 32):
This may seem obvious but Airbus is not the only non-Boeing supplier in the world. Could they be looking at regional jets to lower the costs of their regional flying?

They could be, but the context / tone of the statement makes it seem more likely he is referring to alternatives / competitors to Boeing, and not to complementary suppliers.
 
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glideslope
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:41 pm

Boeing never should have let Allan leave. McNerney Jr. does not listen to the engineers IMO.

Too much "Just Do It".   
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777way
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:43 pm

Quoting breiz (Reply 33):

The defunct cargo airline Galaxy operated A300F, ANA subsidiary Peach went for A320, and theres Skymark with the A380 order.

Also Air Asia Japan and Jetstar Japan both A320 operators.

[Edited 2013-02-25 06:48:14]
 
sankaps
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:58 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
Also Air Asia Japan and Jetstar Japan both A320 operators.

I think the thread refers mainly to the two major Japanese airlines or "flag carriers",, JAL and ANA, and whether they feel (or have felt) pressure to buy only Boeing.
 
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Aesma
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:02 pm

I'll believe it when I'll see it, and I think it's the same for Airbus and Boeing. Airbus will never offer bargain prices because they know it'll only be used to get Boeing to lower their offer, so JAL has to buy Airbus at "normal" discounted rates and only then they'll be taken seriously. They could do this with a small sub-fleet though, so that wouldn't cost too much.

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 10):
Unless he thinks Boeing's about to go under, I don't see what "risk" there is in relying on one vendor.

Well, he's talking about the 787 fiasco obviously. Fortunately for Boeing and JAL, it's only 50 planes. If the same had happened in 2-3 years it would have been epic, with many more 767 having been disposed of leading to major capacity troubles.
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breiz
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
The defunct cargo airline Galaxy operated A300F, ANA subsidiary Peach went for A320, and theres Skymark with the A380 order.

Also Air Asia Japan and Jetstar Japan both A320 operators.

Correct. I forgot the first ones, specially Peach which shows that ANA has no technical reason not to order and continue to use the A320.
AirAsia and Jetstar are sub-fleets not linked to Japanese politics.
 
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
Well, he's talking about the 787 fiasco obviously.

Except in his quote, he's talking about pricing in that paragraph. I don't believe he's referring to Boeing collapsing over the 787 affair.

Quote:

"In a normal market there is tremendous risk from relying on one vendor. In order to provide good products at good prices, at lower prices a dual vendor system is a must."
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777way
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:10 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 38):

Might be but some posters seem not to know that many other Japanese companies use Airbus aircraft, so just to enlighten those.
 
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:12 pm

JAL with A380's doesn't seem to be. Boeing has the right airplanes for them, A330 can't fly far enough and A380's are too big. The 777 is the "right size" for JAL.
 
airbazar
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting sankaps (Reply 35):
They could be, but the context / tone of the statement makes it seem more likely he is referring to alternatives / competitors to Boeing, and not to complementary suppliers.

The way I see it the context is risk mitigation by not relying on a single vendor. Airbus may be the only alternative for long haul, wide body aircraft but for short haul regional flying I'm sure they'd look at other alternatives besides Airbus and Boeing. Just like the 747 was too big for the new JAL, I wonder if the 738 won't be too big too in an era when LCC's are taking away a good chunk of the Y passengers, including JAL's own investment, Jetstar Japan. ANA has already jumped on the RJ bandwagon by ordering 15+10 MRJ 90's. I wouldn't be surprised to see JL do a similar thing.
 
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cjg225
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:41 pm

As a supply chain grad student, I do want to point out that it's not an absolute that multisourcing is better. It all depends. Single-source supply has its place. Case in point: WN single-sourcing 737s. Now, I'll admit, their model is significantly different than JAL's, so, like I said, single-sourcing may work for them in their situation while it may not in JAL's case. I don't know; I haven't studied airlines from the perspective of their sourcing strategies, so I'm taking a guess here. But I did take issue with the idea that it's Procurement 101 to multi-source, which implies it's a bad idea categorically. Is my inclination to multisource when asked? Yes. But there can be many reasons why single-sourcing is a good idea, and if JAL has made it work, more power to them. Will this situation cause them to seriously rethink that? Possibly. Could also possibly be bluster. The Japanese are very, very relationship centric in business. Based on what I've read about the 787 grounding, I don't think there's enough evidence to make it highly likely that JL will suddenly start buying a bunch of Airbus products. From a supply chain perspective, again, that would actually be somewhat dangerous for a company that just went through Corporate Rehabilitation. They'd have to rework a number of functions to deal with a different product, setting up spare parts, training, ancillary equipment, etc. functions that, previously, they didn't have to deal with. This would be a rather long-term decision, I think. It's a big expense and something with which. A company as big as JL making a dramatic shift in procurement strategy would raise an eyebrow, for starters.

Just wanted to defend my academic arena.  

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kl911
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting breiz (Reply 33):
As explained in several threads, that's political.
The earlier breakthroughs for Airbus were the orders from JAS (A300s) and ANA (A320s & A321s).
Together with the A300s, JAS got the Airbus' livery as their new one.
Since then, the start-up StarFlyer is entirely equipped with A320s.

And the 4x A380's for Skymark. 
 
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Paolo92
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
But I think that the number of new airliners being ordered is such that there is room for a third supplier. I wonder if anyone will step up to the plate and start offering at least a 737/A320 competitor, if not a 787/A350 competitor. Lockheed-Martin? Embraer?
Quoting sankaps (Reply 38):
I think the thread refers mainly to the two major Japanese airlines or "flag carriers",, JAL and ANA, and whether they feel (or have felt) pressure to buy only Boeing.

There's Bombardier which looks interested in doing business there:
Bombardier Targets ANA to Japan Airlines for New CSeries
Quote:
Bombardier Inc., an aircraft maker with more planes in Japan than Airbus SAS, wants to add a salesperson dedicated to the country to win orders from All Nippon Airways Co. and Japan Airlines Co. for its CSeries jet.
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gulfstream650
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:06 pm

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 4):
Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 4):
he has raised a good point though.
In the past Japan was very much into relationships in who they did business with. But, that doesn't give anybody
any incentive to sharpen their pencils when its time to buy. And it would be a very very rare occurrence for a single
supplier to continuously for decades provide the best deal when asked every time. I think he is right to question it. He owes it to his companies stakeholders to extract the best possible deal for them. The chinese certainly know no such loyalty. I bet they got better deals too!

        
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777way
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RE: JAL Chairman : 100% Reliance On Boeing "Abnormal"

Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting KL911 (Reply 46):

mentioned here

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
Quoting breiz (Reply 33):
The defunct cargo airline Galaxy operated A300F, ANA subsidiary Peach went for A320, and theres Skymark with the A380 order.

Also Air Asia Japan and Jetstar Japan both A320 operators.