EyeSky
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NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:17 pm

Heard through the grapevine this morning that NH is suspending service to SEA through this summer due the ongoing 787 problems. They've been using a 777-300 for the SEA-NRT route since the 787 was grounded. Guess they can't make a go if it with an aircraft of that size considering the competition from DL and UA. Probably also meant as a signal to Boeing of their growing displeasure.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:20 pm

NH isn't into sending signals and pounding a shoe on the boardroom table like QR. This is a simple decision based on economics. This is a smaller market with a lot of competition and the 773 is too much a/c for the route. They've decided swapping out another a/c on that route doesn't make sense as that a/c can make more money elsewhere.

It's unfortunate but not surprising. Boeing and the FAA need to get this sorted.
 
LAXintl
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:23 pm

Yes also SJC.

Both SEA and SJC has been removed from inventory through August 31st.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
BigGSFO
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:24 pm

NH is part of Star so they will still have market presence via UA. Do UA and NH have a JV?

[Edited 2013-02-25 09:25:15]
 
SANFan
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:25 pm

Here's the latest "apology" on NH's website:
http://www.ana.co.jp/topics/notice130116/index_list_e.html
SEA and SJC now cancelled thru May 31.

Perhaps their T7 fleet is already spoken for during the coming months?

bb
 
cargolex
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:25 pm

The 77W always struck me as an odd sub for the 787 even when the route launched. Prior to the arrival of the 787s, ANA used the 77W.

ANA's 787s have several interior configurations, but at least one of them is not so dissimilar to some of their 767s - wouldn't it be easier to use the 767 on the route? The plane can definitely make it, JAL uses one NRT-YVR and DL uses one KIX-SEA, Omni, Ryan, Atlas, and North American have also used them for military charters OKO-SEA.

[Edited 2013-02-25 09:26:35]
 
AeroWesty
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:26 pm

ANA published the international cancellation list this morning here:

[After 31Mar]Cancellation and Schedule Changes

To the U.S., the SEA and SJC flights are cancelled from March 31 - May 31.
International Homo of Mystery
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:34 pm

Quoting Cargolex (Reply 5):
ANA's 787s have several interior configurations, but at least one of them is not so dissimilar to some of their 767s - wouldn't it be easier to use the 767 on the route? The plane can definitely make it, JAL uses one NRT-YVR and DL uses one KIX-SEA, Omni, Ryan, Atlas, and North American have also used them for military charters OKO-SEA.

NH is declining to use a 767 on the route because they decided that a/c would make more money on different routes. Given the number of 787s in the NH fleet, this extended grounding is causing scheduling headaches galore.
 
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Stitch
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:53 pm

NH was planning to move back to the 777-300ER during the summer months, were they not?

The 202-seat regional 767-300ER is closest in capacity to the 787-8, but it has the Business Cradle seats as opposed to the lie-flat Business Staggered on the long-haul 787-8 (NH regional 787-8s have Business Cradle). At that point, might as well take UA's 777-200ER since it has lie-flat Global Business.
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):

NH was planning to move back to the 777-300ER during the summer months, were they not?

The 202-seat regional 767-300ER is closest in capacity to the 787-8, but it has the Business Cradle seats as opposed to the lie-flat Business Staggered on the long-haul 787-8 (NH regional 787-8s have Business Cradle). At that point, might as well take UA's 777-200ER since it has lie-flat Global Business.

Yeah, I'm about to publish my TR flying NH intra-Asia on the Air Japan 767 in Business. I also flew NH 1077 (787) last fall from SEA to NRT. This is just unbelievably sad news.

With the JV, UA can take over passenger flows for now. I'm also sad to see that the second daily ORD-NRT flight has been suspended from startup as a domino effect casualty.
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roseflyer
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:11 pm

When ANA started taking delivery of 787s, they added to their route network and started new routes or additional frequency with the new airplanes. With 17 airplanes out of service, ANA can’t maintain a reliable schedule with the number of airplanes they have. The didn’t have enough 777s to keep SEA daily. ANA has pushed their fleet utilization to the maximum to keep a reasonable schedule with the 787s out of service, but they can’t keep deferring maintenance and running with no spare aircraft for long before dispatch reliability plummets.

It looks like they finally are pulling SEA rather than operating it every other day and having to rebook all the passengers. It is quite costly to have to rebook people onto other flights.

Quoting EyeSky (Thread starter):
hey've been using a 777-300 for the SEA-NRT route since the 787 was grounded. Guess they can't make a go if it with an aircraft of that size considering the competition from DL and UA. Probably also meant as a signal to Boeing of their growing displeasure.

It’s not because the 777-300ER is too big or because of competition with DL or UA, it is because ANA does not have enough airplanes. They’ve haven’t been able to maintain daily service to SEA with the 787s grounded. They choose FRA-HND over SEA-NRT when allocating 777s ever since the grounding. If they had enough 777s, I don’t think SEA would have been removed from the schedule.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 7):
NH is declining to use a 767 on the route because they decided that a/c would make more money on different routes.

The 767s are needed to cover short haul 787 operations.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:27 pm

I'm betting DL is loving this, gives them one more summer to strengthen their SEA market with only UA as a competitor on the SEA-TYO market.
 
panamair
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
At that point, might as well take UA's 777-200ER since it has lie-flat Global Business.

Not all of UA's 772s have been redone yet; SEA-NRT regularly still uses the old-config 772 (most of this week, for example, UA875/876 is scheduled to use the non-refurbished 772).
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 10):
Quoting panamair (Reply 12):

Since UA and NH have a JV over the Pacific I'm wondering if UA could put a 747 on SEA-NRT to help out HN with their stranded pax till they start flying later in the year. From what i have read UA has enough slack in their 747 fleet for more flying then currently assigned.
 
roseflyer
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting panamair (Reply 12):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
At that point, might as well take UA's 777-200ER since it has lie-flat Global Business.

Not all of UA's 772s have been redone yet; SEA-NRT regularly still uses the old-config 772 (most of this week, for example, UA875/876 is scheduled to use the non-refurbished 772).

UA is using 3 of their last old config 772s on a SFO-HNL-NRT-SEA rotation. It's rather lousy to book an ANA 787 expecting the best business product out there on the best plane (as ANA markets it) and get an old UA 777 with lousy business class seats. However UA had to postpone the last few 777 reconfigurations since LAX-PVG and LAX-NRT are having to operate with 777s instead of UA's 787s, so there is less slack in the schedule to get the airplanes reconfigured since it takes 3-6 weeks per plane.
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2travel2know2
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:16 pm

Do NH B767-300ER are OK to fly non-stop between SEA and NRT? Between SJC and NRT?
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PIEAvantiP180
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:24 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 15):

They should. DL flies their 767-300ER regulartly from SFO-NRT and SEA-Japan, Chine routes.
 
roseflyer
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 15):
Do NH B767-300ER are OK to fly non-stop between SEA and NRT? Between SJC and NRT?

It can, but ANA has been canceling a lot of domestic 787 flights because of the lack of airplanes. A 767 that could fly 12 domestic segments in the time it takes for one SEA turn is a better use of capacity.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 13):
Since UA and NH have a JV over the Pacific I'm wondering if UA could put a 747 on SEA-NRT to help out HN with their stranded pax till they start flying later in the year. From what i have read UA has enough slack in their 747 fleet for more flying then currently assigned.

Even on days when the NH flight is canceled, UA has rarely been flying SEA-NRT with 100% load factor. It's the slowest time of the year for international travel, so loads are light and the UA 777 can absorb the load. Some people also choose to connect via other cities as well to get to their final destination if it isn't SEA. Also, the 787 in ANA configuration has less seats than a UA 757, so there isn't much capacity there.
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lightsaber
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:03 pm

To think I once thought NH taking on 77Es and 767s as temporary lift for 787 delays was going to be a long term financial issue for them...   

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 2):
Both SEA and SJC has been removed from inventory through August 31st.

Sensible, yet sad to hear.


JL removed SAN from the inventory due to 787 issues. Have any other routes been removed?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
[After 31Mar]Cancellation and Schedule Changes

I had a shock seeing FRA on that list until I saw it was only for 3 days.

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
I'm betting DL is loving this,

Understatement. I bet DL is trying to sign on companies to 2 year contracts too...


Lightsaber
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SANFan
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
JL removed SAN from the inventory due to 787 issues. Have any other routes been removed?
SAN-NRT as well as BOS-NRT are alive and well with JL. Both routes op with T7-200, SAN 4x weekly and BOS 6x. The current schedules are good thru the end of March. Beyond that, unkn at this time.

Here's the link to the current JAL US-routes 787-sub update:
http://www.ar.jal.com/arl/cms/contents/en/special_news_003178.html

bb

[Edited 2013-02-25 12:26:33]
 
PHX787
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:36 pm

All NH 787 flights are cancelled through the end of may. Pax getting full refunds, heard through grapevine myself that they will receive a voucher as well on future service on NH.

Not what NH needed at all. The Japanese aviation industry is really scrambling right now to figure this out.
After the earthquake as well japan has been trying to get tourists back to japan. Obviously the cuttingk of flights to the US is making this difficult. Japan was also looking to market the 787 for tourism purposes as well.

I wonder if NH is going to demand Boeing for more 772s to cover this mess.
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MAH4546
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting PIEAvantiP180 (Reply 11):
I'm betting DL is loving this, gives them one more summer to strengthen their SEA market with only UA as a competitor on the SEA-TYO market.

UA/NH are merged trans-Pacfic. It's two carriers regardless. But DL is probably still liking the negative publicity and less capacity in a market that will be grossly over capacity this summer.
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cargolex
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
I wonder if NH is going to demand Boeing for more 772s to cover this mess.

While that might be partial compensation, a 777 ordered right now doesn't actually leave the doors for many months or even a couple of years, even if you pull out every stop. There's an order to such things dictated by the production schedule and other customers. You can't just make the planes appear overnight. By the time such aircraft were ready, the current situation would be over.
 
roseflyer
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):

I wonder if NH is going to demand Boeing for more 772s to cover this mess.

ANA has some 777s on order and it has been said on this site that production slots may have been moved up as far as possible, however any additional 777s would be delivered long after the 787s are flying again. On an expedited schedule, it still takes 1 year from order to delivery of a 777 (typically it is 18 months), unless NH is going to take 777s missing certain customized options. It’s well known that interiors take a long time to coordinate, and ANA can’t fly 777s around with no galleys.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
Not what NH needed at all. The Japanese aviation industry is really scrambling right now to figure this out.
After the earthquake as well japan has been trying to get tourists back to japan. Obviously the cuttingk of flights to the US is making this difficult. Japan was also looking to market the 787 for tourism purposes as well.

With the number of daily seats between the US and Japan, 4 routes canceled due to lack of 787s is hardly going to have a measurable impact on tourism. A connection may now be required, but SAN, SJC and BOS have never had reliable nonstop service to Asia in the past.

I think the scramble to maintain any type of schedule regularity is the bigger problem. ANA and JAL are maximizing fleet utilization with their 787s grounded. Over time that destroys their dispatch reliability and has a negative effect on the whole operation.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
jayunited
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:07 pm

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 9):
I'm also sad to see that the second daily ORD-NRT flight has been suspended from startup as a domino effect casualty.

You are rights the second daily ORD-NRT flight is now scheduled to start on Aug 31 instead of June 29.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:31 pm

I would be surprised to see the 787's back up in the air before Christmas 2013. The authorities, Boeing, NTSB can't even figure out the root cause. Boeing claims to have a suitable solution short-term and long-term solutions, but I'll believe it when I see it.
 
SANFan
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:19 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 23):
A connection may now be required, but SAN, SJC and BOS have never had reliable nonstop service to Asia in the past.

May I refer you to reply 19 which I posted just a few hours ago in response to someone else's mistaken idea that service to SAN from NRT no longer exists.

I would also suggest that lumping JAL's handling of the 787-groundings in with NH's treatment of the same situation is misinformed at best. Last time I checked they were 2 different carriers, doing things according to their own abilities.

  

bb
 
PIEAvantiP180
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 17):

Great point, I'm sure its fine for this time of the year but for summer I think its not going to be enough. If they managed a 75-80% load factor on two flights 777UA and 787NH I'm sure that would be enough for a full 747 until the NH flight can resume. Plus I think it would be great to see UA and DL each have a 747 competing on the same route.

[Edited 2013-02-25 18:18:30]
 
SANMAN66
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:02 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
JL removed SAN from the inventory due to 787 issues.

Where did you hear that? In fact, JL increased 777-200 service from both BOS and SAN.
BOS went up from 4x weekly to 6x weekly and SAN went up from 3x weekly to 4x weekly.


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lightsaber
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:29 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 19):
SAN-NRT as well as BOS-NRT are alive and well with JL. Both routes op with T7-200, SAN 4x weekly and BOS 6x. The current schedules are good thru the end of March. Beyond that, unkn at this time.

I'm happy to be corrected.

LIghtsaber
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Carfield
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:59 am

ANA has some Boeing 777-200ERs, but most of them are in ANA regional configurations with an old cradle style business class seat. They only have a few international configured Boeing 777-200s but mainly doing the HND-LAX/FRA flights now. I don't think it is viable for them to suddenly reconfigure a few Boeing 777-200ERs for the SJC/SEA flights. If they have the same number of Boeing 777-200ERs in international configuration like JAL, they will have less issues and can at least restart SEA. Of course, they also have the largest fleet of Boeing 787s and ANA is going to feel most of the effects.

Carfield
 
ORDnHKG
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:48 am

Quoting Carfield (Reply 30):
ANA has some Boeing 777-200ERs, but most of them are in ANA regional configurations with an old cradle style business class seat. They only have a few international configured Boeing 777-200s but mainly doing the HND-LAX/FRA flights now. I don't think it is viable for them to suddenly reconfigure a few Boeing 777-200ERs for the SJC/SEA flights. If they have the same number of Boeing 777-200ERs in international configuration like JAL, they will have less issues and can at least restart SEA. Of course, they also have the largest fleet of Boeing 787s and ANA is going to feel most of the effects.

Well, isn't NH had converted 2 744D to 744 some years ago when int'l demand was high ? And when some 744 replace by 772ER on some routes, those 2 744 converted back to 744D, I don't think it is too hard to do so, since those 4 regional 772ER originally were 3 class birds that fly SFO, LAX, and IAD anyway.

Converting those 772ER back to int'l would be much easier, as unlike 744D to 744, they don't need to rewire the entire plane for PTV equipped.
 
Carpethead
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:41 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
it has the Business Cradle seats as opposed to the lie-flat Business Staggered on the long-haul 787-8

That is exactly why the 763ERs only go so far as SIN & HNL.
NRT-SEA requires a properly configured airplane and there aren't enough airworthy frames for all the flying.

Quoting ORDnHKG (Reply 31):
I don't think it is too hard to do so, since those 4 regional 772ER originally were 3 class birds that fly SFO, LAX, and IAD anyway.

No, it won't be hard but what aircraft fills in on the flights they vacated? The 763ER fleet is pretty maxed out and no additional aircraft coming. But then again, if Chinese & Korean foreign relations deteriorate, they could probably cancel some services or sub a 738 on some routes.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:19 pm

From the date of this thread, when was ANA supposed to end service to SEA? A NH flight just landed at SEA around 9:30AM today using a 77H.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:24 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 33):
when was ANA supposed to end service to SEA?

It's right here, including the link to ANA's schedule announcement page:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
[After 31Mar]Cancellation and Schedule Changes

To the U.S., the SEA and SJC flights are cancelled from March 31 - May 31.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BigGSFO
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting wedgetail737 (Reply 33):
A NH flight just landed at SEA around 9:30AM today using a 77H.

Cancellation effective March 31.
 
wedgetail737
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:06 pm

Thanks for the clarification.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 23):
but SAN, SJC and BOS have never had reliable nonstop service to Asia in the past.

Not true. AA did SJC-NRT from 1991-2006. (and SJC-TPE for six months in 2001)

NH is running a bus from SJC to connect to its SFO flights. I'm more concerned if this long delay in NH starting SJC is going to harm the long-term success of the market. I think NH flew into SJC for like four days before the 787 was grounded.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 37):
I'm more concerned if this long delay in NH starting SJC is going to harm the long-term success of the market.

If the dynamics for the market were there two months ago, they'll be there two months from now, unless you're referring to the potential acceptance of the 787 once it's restored to service.
International Homo of Mystery
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 37):
I'm more concerned if this long delay in NH starting SJC is going to harm the long-term success of the market.

If the dynamics for the market were there two months ago, they'll be there two months from now, unless you're referring to the potential acceptance of the 787 once it's restored to service.

No, I was more referring to NH losing the momentum they started in advertising and building up the service. SJC was well advertized in both the SJC area and Tokyo. NH appeared to do a good job at that. Then the flight flies four days and then suspended for probably at least four months. That's losing a lot of potential customers. I'm really hoping the route does well, and I think it will be successful for NH if they can overcome this long suspension of service.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: NH Suspends Service To SEA

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 39):
That's losing a lot of potential customers.

Customers who'll still be there when the 787 returns to service. Advertising may be run again, and sales people deployed to sell seats again. The market for the service won't simply evaporate.
International Homo of Mystery