acws777
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Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:23 am

This is only a rumor, but I heard bombardier is looking to build or do a NG version for the dash 8-300. Anyone have any more information about this??
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:58 am

Kinda late is that is true. Should've done that years ago.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
crownvic
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:24 am

I never understood why Bombardier discontinued their entire Dash 8 line (aside from the Q400). With high fuel prices and limited airframe availability in this market, it never made sense to me. Not being involved internally at Bombardier, it is easy to not understand, but perhaps they just were not profiting enough to sustain the lines and preferred to focus on Q400 and CRJ production. Maybe they now realize with the discontinuation of smaller CRJ jets, there maybe an opportunity to turn back the clock.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:39 am

Well I have heard around our company (jazz) that our management has asked them to re-open the production line a few times...If they do, the aircraft needs to be more Of a Q400 shrink than the old 300. Actually a 40 seater would be better.
 
as739x
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:55 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 1):
Kinda late is that is true. Should've done that years ago.

100% agree. I'd think it would get Skywest's attention to replace the EMB. From SFO there are many markets that just are to small for the RJ's.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:36 am

Quoting Crj 900 (Reply 3):

So, perhaps a Q-250? A -200 with an extra row of seating and better fuel efficiency?
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
CRJ 900
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:58 am

40 ish seats, same cockpit cabin systems as the Q400, 5 or six blades, and a big wish would be drop down o2 and a service ceiling of 30k or so...... We operate the Q4 from yyz-yqm. In the winter with bad winds westbound can be a 3 hr flight....summer 2.5 hr. the ability to fly higher and get out of the crap would be great. Streaming media n wifi wud be awesome too...no need for tvs.ya a Q250 or maybe a Q500?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:44 am

Quoting crownvic (Reply 2):
I never understood why Bombardier discontinued their entire Dash 8 line (aside from the Q400).

Lack of sales on the Q200/Q300.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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817Dreamliiner
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 1):
Kinda late is that is true. Should've done that years ago.

Agreed... Theyve pertty much lost that Market to ATR now...
Please let me know... If you know this is the end of the world, Let me know... If you know the truth...
 
Clydenairways
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:41 am

They should have done this years ago, they have totally missed the boat in the last few years. The ending of the 50 seat regional jet boom was signaled years ago and it was clear that there was going to be a resurgence in turboprop aircraft.
ATR have had this market on a plate for years.
 
vfw614
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:17 am

Wouldn't a Q400 shrink be much to much aircraft in the 40-50 seater category? Part of the success of the ATR72 is that a lot of customers do not need what the Q400 offers and are happy to settle with a much cheaper alternative. Wouldn't a Q400 shrink to 50 seats face the same problem when competing with the ATR42-600?

Anyway, the ATR42-600 isn't selling that well, so I am not sure if there is really big demand in the 50seater category (yet) that would make an offering by Bombardier viable. Almost all ATR sales are for the ATR72.
 
Dash8Driver16
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:04 pm

i know there are a few airlines in the US that would be interested mainly PDT and Commut Air
 
acws777
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting Crj 900 (Reply 3):

I just started at jazz and I was talking to someone about the dash 8 and he mentioned the same thing. They want to remain a Canadian supporter, so they are putting alot of pressure on bombardier.
 
william
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:10 pm

Whats to prevent Embraer from restarting the EMB 120 line? A NG version.
 
Luftymatt
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:15 pm

Makes sense to me. It could compete with the ATR 42, whilst the Q400 competes with ATR 72's.
As has been said already, I don't know why it's taken them this long.
chase the sun
 
vfw614
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting LuftyMatt (Reply 14):
It could compete with the ATR 42, whilst the Q400 competes with ATR 72's

I don't think that the Q400 and the ATR72 compete as much as many seem to believe. Isn't the Q400 approx. 50 per cent more expensive than the ATR72 and more attractive for airlines operating longer legs, whereas the ATR72 is more of a tradtional regional aircraft.

Quoting william (Reply 13):
Whats to prevent Embraer from restarting the EMB 120 line? A NG version.

Given that the ERJ135/140/145 are based on the EMB120, it would be interesting if a 40seat strecht would be feasible, given that there is no new aircraft on the market in the 20-40 seat category.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 11):

Yes, especially with the -100s starting (continuing) to age. Would love tp see the little Dashes stay around. So much fun flying them from ISP to PHL.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
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JBo
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:02 pm

Quoting william (Reply 13):
Whats to prevent Embraer from restarting the EMB 120 line? A NG version.
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 15):
Given that the ERJ135/140/145 are based on the EMB120, it would be interesting if a 40seat strecht would be feasible, given that there is no new aircraft on the market in the 20-40 seat category.

The EMB-120 line has never technically been closed; they just aren't regularly producing airframes. The EMB-120 shares the same production line as the ERJs as they share a number of common components (i.e. fuselage). Embraer has produced a few one-off orders for the 120, mainly for military clients, after regular production of the aircraft ended.

It wouldn't be terribly difficult for Embraer to develop and upgraded Brasilia, though I don't know how easy it would be to stretch the airframe.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
 
konrad
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:03 pm

Quoting william (Reply 13):
Whats to prevent Embraer from restarting the EMB 120 line? A NG version.

I'd rather like to see the Saab 2000 line restarted with the original Saab 2000 50 seater and a 340NG in the 30pax category.
 
vfw614
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:11 pm

Same problem I guess as with the Q400 - the Saab 2000 is too much of an aircraft for many potential customers who are looking for a 50 seater. While twenty years ago many 30-50 seaters were bought by subsidiaries of legacy carriers, nowadays it is more a market for true third level carriers.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:19 pm

Like many proposed aircraft, the question is : what engine ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
wingnutmn
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:27 pm

50 seat prop with a comparable speed to a Q400 would be a good sell I would think with oil still at $90+ a barrel. The only way BBD could make this work though is to price it comparable to the ATR42. I think that carriers that fly the Q could all be interested in this plane. I definitely think speed though is the key to this planes success.

Wingnut
Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
 
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Polot
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 8):
Agreed... Theyve pertty much lost that Market to ATR now...
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 9):
They should have done this years ago, they have totally missed the boat in the last few years. The ending of the 50 seat regional jet boom was signaled years ago and it was clear that there was going to be a resurgence in turboprop aircraft.

ATR42 sales in 2012: 3
ATR72 sales in 2012: 71

The turboprop aircraft are increasing. Not in the 40-50 seat market though. I'm not sure how a Q300NG would have more success than the ATR42 when the Q400 struggles to compete for orders with the ATR72.
 
planemaker
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 7):
Lack of sales on the Q200/Q300.

The ERJ's "killed" them off (coupled with the fact that the smaller Dash were almost entirely built at Downsview.... unlike the Q400 which is only assembled there).

Quoting Crj 900 (Reply 3):
Well I have heard around our company (jazz) that our management has asked them to re-open the production line a few times...

They can't re-open the production line as it (and tooling) no longer physically exists.

Quoting konrad (Reply 18):
I'd rather like to see the Saab 2000 line restarted with the original Saab 2000 50 seater and a 340NG in the 30pax category.

Just as the ERJ's "killed" the Q300, the CRJ200 "killed" the Saab 2000.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 9):
They should have done this years ago, they have totally missed the boat in the last few years.

There were several design studies 14 years ago of the Q500 based on the Q400 but the RJ market momentum "killed" the project.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
elbandgeek
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:27 pm

I think with the rush to get rid of 50 seat RJs, a new 50 seat prop could do well. I wouldn't expect them to be ordered in as great of a number since the bulk of capacity is being taken over by 70-90 seaters but there's still plenty of markets that won't fill a CR7 and a Q300NG could be just the plane for those.
 
northstardc4m
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 23):
They can't re-open the production line as it (and tooling) no longer physically exists.

Bombardier said when they shut down the Q200/300 that the unique jigs and tooling (as in the ones not still used for Q400 production) would be disassembled and stored, not destroyed. I believe they still have them in storage.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
planemaker
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 24):
I think with the rush to get rid of 50 seat RJs, a new 50 seat prop could do well.

With used RJ's selling for only $1-3.5 million with plentiful parts availability, and the availability of the 50-seat ATR there would be a limited market for an all new 50 seat TP.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 25):
Bombardier said when they shut down the Q200/300 that the unique jigs and tooling (as in the ones not still used for Q400 production) would be disassembled and stored, not destroyed. I believe they still have them in storage.

Not any more. The Q400 and the 200/300 did not share any tooling or jigs (nor production line). Very few people realize that the 200/300 were built-up almost entirely in-house with "ancient" machining, tooling and jigs (and hence the relatively high production costs) whereas the Q400 is principally built outside of Canada and is only assembled at Downsview. It is not feasible to put the 200/300 back into production.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
vfw614
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:08 pm

I guess the core question is when there will be sufficient demand in the 20 to 60-seat turboprop market again, demand that last existed in the 1980/1990. At the moment, 15-30 year old aircraft of this size that were previously operated by airlines that in the meantime have moved up the ladder to 70-100 seat are filtering down to third level operators. While traffic patterns have changed and the market for mid-sized turboprop certainly has become smaller, it still exists. But currently it is well-served by relatively young and well maintained second-hand aircraft that have become available and are attractive as the typical customer for a 30-50 seat aircraft nowadays is a small independent airline without the deeper pockets of many customers that bought that type of aircraft in the past, often subsidiaries of large legacy carriers. However, at one point this typical supply chain will dry up and there will be the need for a new, but relatively inexpensive design. I doubt that a "mini Q400" would be that kind of aircraft as an airline like Jazz will not be the typical customer for a 30/50-seater.
 
ssteve
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting planemaker (Reply 26):

Not any more. The Q400 and the 200/300 did not share any tooling or jigs (nor production line). Very few people realize that the 200/300 were built-up almost entirely in-house with "ancient" machining, tooling and jigs (and hence the relatively high production costs) whereas the Q400 is principally built outside of Canada and is only assembled at Downsview. It is not feasible to put the 200/300 back into production.

Interesting. So any new 200/300 would truly be a Q400 shrink.

I have to imagine the big question is whether they can get the price and operating costs much lower than a Q400. Both things might be an issue.
 
apruzesse13
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:45 pm

I think there is no Bombardier plan to produce a Q300NG, just a SB to retrofit a Q400-like cockpit on existing airframes
 
william
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:11 pm

Quoting konrad (Reply 18):
I'd rather like to see the Saab 2000 line restarted with the original Saab 2000 50 seater and a 340NG in the 30pax category.

Embraer still has the tooling for the EMB120, it is techically still in the product catalog. SAAB? I am sure the production jigs were destroyed along time ago.
 
silentbob
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting crownvic (Reply 2):

I never understood why Bombardier discontinued their entire Dash 8 line (aside from the Q400).

This is why.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 26):
Not any more. The Q400 and the 200/300 did not share any tooling or jigs (nor production line). Very few people realize that the 200/300 were built-up almost entirely in-house with "ancient" machining, tooling and jigs (and hence the relatively high production costs) whereas the Q400 is principally built outside of Canada and is only assembled at Downsview. It is not feasible to put the 200/300 back into production.

The 200/300 was no longer profitable. Any new 50 seat model would have to be built using the same import and assemble methodology as the Q400. I think they would introduce a 50 seat model if they could do the following:
Use the Q400 model as the base, with as many common parts as possible
Get guarantees of at least 75 units up front, there would likely be more units later

Using the same engines on the new 50 seat 300 would be overkill to an incredible degree.
 
acws777
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:43 pm

Would a combi dash 8-400 be feasible, especially for airlines looking to replace their 50 seaters.
 
silentbob
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:45 pm

Quoting acws777 (Reply 32):
Would a combi dash 8-400 be feasible, especially for airlines looking to replace their 50 seaters.

Maybe in the islands, where more cargo space can always be put to use, but not in the US.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:06 pm

Quoting konrad (Reply 18):
I'd rather like to see the Saab 2000 line restarted with the original Saab 2000 50 seater and a 340NG in the 30pax category.

You and me both. Something about the 2000 that I just find sexy, don't know why.


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northstardc4m
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting acws777 (Reply 32):

Would a combi dash 8-400 be feasible, especially for airlines looking to replace their 50 seaters.

Depends on the airline...
Not for Jazz for sure.
Jazz needs (badly needs) a -100/-300 replacement... some of theirs are flipping ancient.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:21 pm

The Dash 8 300 is used for maritime surveillance.
Perhaps a few military or coastguard orders could reopen the production.
 
freeze3192
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting Dash8Driver16 (Reply 11):
i know there are a few airlines in the US that would be interested mainly PDT and Commut Air

I think you're right. CommutAir would definitely be interested even it's just for more second-hand frames that will be on the market if other airlines order this. I'm not so sure that they would have the capital to order some of these new, without a mainline partner backing them. Just too small of a company, but it's privately held so I could be way off base.

I'd like to see a 300 with more powerful engines, as the current engines were just taken off the 200 and a little bit more power added. The thing is a dog fully loaded in the summer. o2 and a 30,000 ft service ceiling would be nice but I don't see airlines using it that much. I think most operators would restrict it to 28,000 ft to keep costs low with RVSM certification and crew training. I'd also like to see a better APU or better guidance for operating it as ours are frequently MEL'd due to failed starts. Other than the engines and the APU, the 300 is a great plane. It can go out full (50 pax) with 70 bags and a jumpseater no sweat, which is a lot better than the 200. Aside from having to keep a close eye on the deck angle when landing to mitigate tail strikes, it's a real pleasure to fly.
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:46 pm

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 37):
I'd like to see a 300 with more powerful engines, as the current engines were just taken off the 200 and a little bit more power added. The thing is a dog fully loaded in the summer. o2 and a 30,000 ft service ceiling would be nice but I don't see airlines using it that much. I think most operators would restrict it to 28,000 ft to keep costs low with RVSM certification and crew training. I'd also like to see a better APU or better guidance for operating it as ours are frequently MEL'd due to failed starts. Other than the engines and the APU, the 300 is a great plane. It can go out full (50 pax) with 70 bags and a jumpseater no sweat, which is a lot better than the 200. Aside from having to keep a close eye on the deck angle when landing to mitigate tail strikes, it's a real pleasure to fly.

I think it was the other way round. The 300 was the next version after the 100. A few years later they stuck the 300 engines on the 100 to make the 200.
 
brilondon
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:15 pm

Quoting 817Dreamliiner (Reply 8):

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 1):
Kinda late is that is true. Should've done that years ago.

Agreed... Theyve pertty much lost that Market to ATR now..

There was no market, that is why they discontinued it. I don't know if there is a market now. There have always been aircraft in that niche, but obviously there seems to be a market now if the story is true.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
Mainliner
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:42 pm

I was told several times by PDT managers and instructors that a "shrunken" Q400 would not work because the costs of operating a smaller aircraft with the same or similar engines (with similar fuel burn) would be too high to be recouped by the smaller passenger capacity.
Every flight counts.
 
DeltaB717
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:55 pm

I don't know about other parts of the world but I know a shrink of the Q400 would be difficult for the likes of QF because some of the airports it operates -100 / Q200 / Q300 at would need to undertake significant works to accommodate the increased main gear span and the wider span between the prop hubs compared to the Q200 / Q300. ARM is one that comes to mind easily. So perhaps not such an obvious choice anywhere that you face issues like that...
 
acws777
Topic Author
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:39 pm

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 35):

definitely. On take offs I always worry they are going to fall apart
 
Dash8Driver16
Posts: 109
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:41 pm

If you think the -300 is a dog you have never flown a -100. I love flying the -300 as it can take like you said a full boat I guess bigger engines can help but i have never really had an issue with the APU on the -300.
 
m1m2
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:39 am

RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:07 am

The engines on the Dash 8-100 (PW120) each produce 2000 shp. The engines on the -300 (PW123) are each producing 2380 shp. I guess that extra horsepower makes all the difference.
 
bkircher
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:37 am

I still think that a Crj200ng would work the best. Just re-engine the 200 and upgrade a few things and right there you have a brand new aircraft that would be instantly competitive.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 37):

More power is always good however it can struggle in the summer as you say. I think current Q300s just need slightly up-rated power plants and the Q400 avionics and that would be sweet
 
vfw614
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting bkircher (Reply 45):
I still think that a Crj200ng would work the best. Just re-engine the 200 and upgrade a few things and right there you have a brand new aircraft that would be instantly competitive.

Difficult to imagine airlines like Wideroe, LIAT or Air Niugini replacing their DHC8-100 with a CRJ200NG....Unlike US regionals, many airlines require the short field performance of the DHC8-100/200.
 
LimaFoxTango
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:21 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 47):

Unfortunately, LI went ATR. I say unfortunately because the Dash 8 is one sweet airplane.
You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
 
silentbob
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RE: Rumor:New Dash 8-300

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:37 am

Quoting Mainliner (Reply 40):
I was told several times by PDT managers and instructors that a "shrunken" Q400 would not work because the costs of operating a smaller aircraft with the same or similar engines (with similar fuel burn) would be too high to be recouped by the smaller passenger capacity.

You're talking about the company that said that they got rid of the 200s because "they burned too much fuel"

That said, a new 300 would need to have lower powered engines to make sense. The 400 power plants are overkill for a smaller aircraft.

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