justinlee
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Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:34 pm

According to the announcement of Air China, CA orders 2x748I, 1x77W, 20x738 and Air China Cargo orders 7x777F on 3-1-2013. Air China also has the option to convert 4x738 to 1x77W. Air China will sell back its 7x744 to Boeing.

The prices for these planes are as follows: 748I-340 million USD, 77W-300 million USD, 738-80 million USD, 77F-280 million USD.

This order will increase Air China's total capacity by 18.7% in terms of available ton kilometers and 19.1% if Air China choose to convert 4x738 to 1x77W.

The link is in Chinese:
http://stock.sohu.com/20130301/n367554155.shtml

[Edited 2013-03-01 07:37:56]
 
warren747sp
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:37 pm

Wow, more 748 passenger jet! now if CX will just follow.
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Francoflier
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 1):

Given their partnership with Air China and their fleet of -8F, you can't be faulted for hoping! There is a real 747 culture in CX, but at the end of the day, money rules...

There is still no clue which way this one will go...

[Edited 2013-03-01 07:52:19]
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Stitch
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting warren747sp (Reply 1):
Wow, more 748 passenger jet! now if CX will just follow.

All seven 777Fs were originally ordered by CX, who cancelled their 8-frame today (while adding five options) and took over three 747-8Fs that CA intended to order from Boeing.
 
na
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:21 pm

Nice to hear about two more 748I orders.
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
Air China will sell back its 7x744 to Boeing

Could it be that this is a new approach of Boeing as part of their 748-sales campaigns? It sounds very similiar to the deal for additional CX 748Fs as reported in the other thread.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting na (Reply 4):
Nice to hear about two more 748I orders.

Would be nicer if one or both come in VVIP configuration.  
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
na
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 5):
Could it be that this is a new approach of Boeing as part of their 748-sales campaigns? It sounds very similiar to the deal for additional CX 748Fs as reported in the other thread.

If so, its not very successful, taking back 7 old 744s for selling just two new Jumbo-Jets. Now if they would have ordered 7 748Fs the sales department would have more to celebrate...

Btw, Air China Cargo has 9 BCFs/BDSFs at the moment, so it seems they´ll keep 2 frames.
 
RubberJungle
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:11 pm

Air China is taking eight 777Fs, the ones Cathay has just cancelled.

[Edited 2013-03-01 09:12:44]
 
SASMD82
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:26 pm

So what's the point of having both 77W and 748i in one fleet? I really don't understand this unless they get huge discounts.

Anyway, congrats to Boeing. A nice order.
 
b777erj145
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:07 pm

Good for Boeing and Air China. I novice here as I just started this hobby so a question what Boeing will do with used 744s?
 
na
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):

So what's the point of having both 77W and 748i in one fleet? I really don't understand this unless they get huge discounts.

Well, I´d understand if you´d ask why others airlines operate 772s and 77Ws, but this question? They are both very different planes, the 748I being quite a bit bigger and able to offer superior accomodation for its high-yield passengers.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 6):
Would be nicer if one or both come in VVIP configuration.  

Why?
 
na
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting b777erj145 (Reply 10):

Good for Boeing and Air China. I novice here as I just started this hobby so a question what Boeing will do with used 744s?

Those planes in question are between 18 and 23 years old, capable of flying 5 or 10 years more. They will be offering them to operators who still got 742Fs or startups who might be tempted by a low pricetag. And/or maybe Boeing will possibly scrap the oldest frames to take pressure from the currently soft market if they dont sell in the next 12 months or so. Some will surely find a new home.
 
airbazar
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
So what's the point of having both 77W and 748i in one fleet? I really don't understand this unless they get huge discounts.

There are significant size differences for one. LH operates both 748i's and A346's for example.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:12 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
So what's the point of having both 77W and 748i in one fleet?

Depending on how you configure it, there is about a 75-seat delta between a 747-8 and 777-300ER so AC might have routes that higher traffic and therefore can make use of the extra seats the 747-8 offers.



Quoting b777erj145 (Reply 10):
so a question what Boeing will do with used 744s?

In addition to na's comments, Boeing could also strip some of them for spares to re-stock their stores.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting na (Reply 11):

Why?

It's just the enthusiast in me talking   .

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
So what's the point of having both 77W and 748i in one fleet?

The hoi polloi fly on the former while the hoi oligoi enjoy the latter.   
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting na (Reply 12):
capable of flying 5 or 10 years more.
Quoting na (Reply 12):
Some will surely find a new home.


With global climate change and increase chance of wild fire, there may be a market to 747 tankers.


bt
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legacyins
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:06 pm

I think SFO is the last International 74M/744 route being flown by CA. The 74M is finally being replaced by a full pax 744 this coming Spring when JFK goes over to the 777-300ER. I anticipate SFO to get the 77W in the next year or two.
 
B2468
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:58 pm

Great to see more 748i in CA livery (I know many don't like their livery, but I love it)!

I just hope my namesake 744M doesn't get the axe!
CNC/DH4/ERJ/306/310/319/320/332/333/343/346/388/72S/731/732/733/734/73G/738/741/744/74E/752/762/763/77E/77W/D95/D1C/M82
 
theaviator380
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:37 pm

Which route CA will deploy those 2 747-8i? Any idea guys?
 
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legacyins
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:51 pm

Quoting B2468 (Reply 18):

The 74M will be withdrawn from service this Spring. This time next Summer, CA will no longer fly their 747s until the 748s arrive .
 
dtfg
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:05 pm

when will the 747-8I be delivered?
 
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EK413
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:51 pm

LH operate the A346, B744, B748i & A380 along aside one an other so I don't see the problem with CA operating the B77W & B748i...

Well done Boeing & CA...

EK413
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LAXintl
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting legacyins (Reply 17):
I think SFO is the last International 74M/744 route being flown by CA. The 74M is finally being replaced by a full pax 744 this coming Spring when JFK goes over to the 777-300ER. I anticipate SFO to get the 77W in the next year or two.

I'm surprised CA has hung onto the older 747s at SFO.

They were pretty fast to bring their new product and go double daily at LAX using the 77W.

Dont they view SFO as competitive market worthy of their best product?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Carpethead
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:00 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 6):
Would be nicer if one or both come in VVIP configuration.

Since CA is returning the remaining 744s, which one usually operated for VIP missions, it is certainly feasible the two additional 748s will be for VVIP operations.
Both #1 & #3 world economic powers operate a pair of 747s, so why shouldn't PRC join the club too. World economic powers #4 & #5 operate a different type of 4-engined aircraft for VVIP operations.
 
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EK413
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):
They were pretty fast to bring their new product and go double daily at LAX using the 77W.

They have been quick to bring the new product to SYD too... I'm surprised they don't rotate the aircraft in the morning with a tag on service opposed to sitting on the tarmac for 12+ hours...

EK413
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legacyins
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:06 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 23):

I was quite disappointed myself as I used to fly them quite often from SFO-PEK on their 74M. They do codeshare with UA on their PEK flight, so maybe that has something to do with it. When they announced their IAH flight using their new 77W, it became clear that SFO is not at the top of their priority list. But, look at JFK, CA is only introducing their 77W on this route with an increase in frequencies.

On a side note, let's not forget CA already ordered 5 748s a couple of years ago to be delivered in 2014/15.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...747-8-planes-on-travel-growth.html
 
WROORD
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting na (Reply 4):
Nice to hear about two more 748I orders

Agreed. I am surprised that there is no more 748I orders from CX, SQ, JL and HN. Let's hope.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 27):
I am surprised that there is no more 748I orders from CX, SQ, JL and HN.

JL, NH and SQ have no need for a 747-sized aircraft, so none of them will be placing an order.

I still expect CX, if they go for a VLA, to go for the A380-800.
 
justinlee
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting carpethead (Reply 24):
Since CA is returning the remaining 744s, which one usually operated for VIP missions, it is certainly feasible the two additional 748s will be for VVIP operations.

Considering the current cost-saving campaign in the CPC, I really suspect this VVIP configuration. For example, they have cancelled the charter flights for the chinese version of congrassman . But definitely these 748 will be used for VVIP charter missions.
 
Newark727
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 6):
Would be nicer if one or both come in VVIP configuration.

It wouldn't surprise me if one or two eventually got used for head of state type flights, several countries including China have used their airlines' 747s for occasional official visits.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 16):
With global climate change and increase chance of wild fire, there may be a market to 747 tankers.

I thought the jury was still out as to whether the widebody tanker concept was worth the sizable operating costs, but I haven't heard much about it in a while.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:58 am

Quoting justinlee (Reply 29):
Considering the current cost-saving campaign in the CPC, I really suspect this VVIP configuration. For example, they have cancelled the charter flights for the chinese version of congrassman . But definitely these 748 will be used for VVIP charter missions.

But CA already has 5 748i on order, so this makes it 7. So why would these two be used for something different than the other 5?

Also, nobody ever mentions the 748i in relation to CAL (or China Airlines) anymore... just because they are introducing the 77W doesn't mean they won't go for the 748i ...unless they have officially ruled it out
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:04 am

Also, what gives with the 15 aircraft 748i commitment announced in 2011 (believed to be HK or another Chinese airline?)

Still waiting on government approval?
 
justinlee
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:10 am

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 31):
But CA already has 5 748i on order, so this makes it 7. So why would these two be used for something different than the other 5?

I mean all these 748 will operate VIP missions. For example, nowadays, these VIP missions are operated by different planes in the 744 fleet of Air China.
 
Newark727
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:45 am

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 32):
Also, what gives with the 15 aircraft 748i commitment announced in 2011 (believed to be HK or another Chinese airline?)

I'm wondering this as well. But if it was Hainan Group/Hong Kong Airlines, they had a bit of a change of heart about the A380 so I wouldn't be surprised if they're also having second thoughts about the B748.
 
sweair
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:06 am

I was viewing 748 vs 744 film clips, there is a big difference in noise between them in the cabin, those genx suckers are quite good in this way. A very comfortable plane to ride in for sure, I would say it beats a 77W any day from a passenger perspective.
 
dc1030cf
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:09 am

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 31):
Also, nobody ever mentions the 748i in relation to CAL (or China Airlines) anymore... just because they are introducing the 77W doesn't mean they won't go for the 748i ...unless they have officially ruled it out

Don't hold your breath. It won't happen for a V-E-R-Y L-O-N-G time. CI and Taiwan in general, both have too much internal politics for any decision to be made in a "Reasonable" period of time. See how long it took for they "Finally" ordered the 77W after most of the regional competitions already flying it. (BR, CA, CX, JL, KE, NH, PR, SQ, TG) China Airlines is a hopeless case 
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:20 am

Glad to see the 748I break through with another airline! It's been a long time coming. A two aircraft order means most likely that CA will use them for close evaluation, before placing an order to build the fleet to scale. If they pass, another 5-10 could be ordered. If they fail, they'll just convert them to 748Fs. A win/win I hope more airlines look at.

Quoting justinlee (Thread starter):
Air China will sell back its 7x744 to Boeing.

Off the topic, but are these the used 744s Boeing has discussed with DL? It is rumored that DL and Boeing are trading quotes for additional late-build 744s. Built between 1997-2000, these would seem to fit the bill.   
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flightsimer
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:28 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 37):

Hate to burst your bubble, but this a top up order for 747-8I's, not a new airline. Air China finalized their 2011 announcement for 5 last year some time; so this announcement will bring their total to 7.

The 747-400s being sold are all converted 747-400BCF's (freighters) so Delta won't be buying them.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:38 am

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 38):

If I'm a 748I fan, so how would 7 total orders vs 2 be "bursting my bubble"??   IIRC, the 5 previous were not official or were pending government review/approval, so to me this is "new". If that has changed, then that's good news...no? At this point, the 748I needs frames...

I thought the 744s were pax frames, my mistake.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:57 am

Air China firmed the order for 5 748i aircraft last September.

http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...ology/2019144898_boeing747xml.html
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na
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:47 am

Quoting sweair (Reply 35):
I was viewing 748 vs 744 film clips, there is a big difference in noise between them in the cabin, those genx suckers are quite good in this way. A very comfortable plane to ride in for sure, I would say it beats a 77W any day from a passenger perspective.

Absolutely, after flying with the new 747 there is no doubt left - the 748I is clearly superior to the 77W from a passenger perspective. On the upper I didnt even hear the engines at all. Airlines going 77W instead of 748 are without a doubt not really caring for their (high-yield) pax in the first place, no matter what they say. Time to tell it to the world before its to late!
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 32):
Also, what gives with the 15 aircraft 748i commitment announced in 2011 (believed to be HK or another Chinese airline?)

Still waiting on government approval?

The Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department recently lifted the growth restrictions they put into place last year, so Hong Kong Airlines is now allowed to add new aircraft (at the moment, they seem to be focusing on narrowbody expansion to mainland China).
 
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Polot
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 42):
The Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department recently lifted the growth restrictions they put into place last year, so Hong Kong Airlines is now allowed to add new aircraft (at the moment, they seem to be focusing on narrowbody expansion to mainland China).

As later mentioned though HNA has backpedaled some at the end of last year and admitted that they may cancel them due to the weak market. While they haven't done so, and I doubt that they will cancel the A380s, if they are having some doubts about their current 10 A380s on order I don't see them adding an additional 15 748s anytime soon.

I think the complete failure of their LGW flight and the restrictions that they were placed under have made them realize that you have to walk some before you start running- hence the current focus on narrowbody expansion.
 
WROORD
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
JL, NH and SQ have no need for a 747-sized aircraft, so none of them will be placing an order.

What makes you so sure? JL and SQ up to recently had 747-400 in their fleet. 748I could be a nice complement to SQ A380. JL is picking up business and eventually may need a bigger plane and finally NH still has 5 747s used primarily in their high volume domestic markets.
 
Newark727
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting WROORD (Reply 44):
finally NH still has 5 747s used primarily in their high volume domestic markets.

While I wouldn't suggest that this disproves your point about JL or SQ, NH's domestic 747s are being retired right now, and I doubt that the sort of flying that they are used for lends itself to another 747 replacement now that the 777 and 787 are available.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:16 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
JL, NH and SQ have no need for a 747-sized aircraft, so none of them will be placing an order.
Quoting WROORD (Reply 44):
What makes you so sure? JL and SQ up to recently had 747-400 in their fleet. 748I could be a nice complement to SQ A380. JL is picking up business and eventually may need a bigger plane and finally NH still has 5 747s used primarily in their high volume domestic markets.
SQ has no use for a 747-8. The 777-300ER has 70% of the passenger capacity of their A380-800 (278 seats to 409) and when it proves to be too small, SQ has upgraded directly to the A380-800 and been successful. So there is no reason to add another large widebody to try and slot between them.

JL is following NH's lead and significantly down-sizing their capacity to tailor it directly to profitable demand so the 777-300ER is as large a platform they need.

And NH is phasing out their 747-400Ds as the 777-300(ER) can carry almost as many passengers at significantly greater efficiency.

[Edited 2013-03-02 09:20:39]
 
na
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):
SQ has no use for a 747-8. The 777-300ER has 70% of the passenger capacity of their A380-800 (278 seats to 409) and when it proves to be to small, SQ has upgraded directly to the A380-800.

Well, thats a much bigger step than between their A330/772s and the 77W. I wouldnt rule out the 748I in the longer term although I admit the chances are low at SQ.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 46):
JL is following NH's lead and significantly down-sizing their capacity to tailor it directly to profitable demand so the 777-300ER is as large a platform they need.
And NH is phasing out their 747-400Ds as the 777-300(ER) can carry almost as many passengers at significantly greater efficiency.

It remains to be seen how many passengers of JAL and ANA do experience and value the greater comfort available on the A380 and 748I of the competition. Many Japanese are very patriotic.
As for the 744D replacement the 773/77Ws surely are enough, and the T7s have the dubious advantage (for the management that is, certainly not for the passenger) to cramp 10 people into a row in Eco, which in Japan maybe isnt that bad as it would be in the Western World with its taller people.
 
cargolex
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:46 pm

Quoting WROORD (Reply 44):

What makes you so sure? JL and SQ up to recently had 747-400 in their fleet. 748I could be a nice complement to SQ A380. JL is picking up business and eventually may need a bigger plane and finally NH still has 5 747s used primarily in their high volume domestic markets.

You know, you can't say "absolutely never" about many things, but if any of these three order the 747-8i, it won't be any time soon (not within the next 3-5 years, if ever). With the exception of the immediate medium-widebody problem, which isn't the fault of the fleet planners or JL, JL's fleet strategy seems fairly solid.

It's possible that increased business could demand larger planes for NH or JL, but it isn't likely in the near term.

For SQ, it's even more unlikely as they have made a commitment to the A380, and there really isn't much need for them to have two VLA types. In two or three years, I wouldn't be so surprised to see them take a look at the 747-8F, but I don't think the i is going to be on their menu unless something drastic and unforeseen happens.

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 31):
Also, nobody ever mentions the 748i in relation to CAL (or China Airlines) anymore..

Most of their 744 pax planes, and certainly their 744Fs, have a lot of life left in them, and those that don't are likely to be supplanted by the 77W. In time, I think they will take a closer look at the 747-8 program as a whole, but for now, they don't seem to be in any hurry to make any decision, and that's just as well for them, because Taiwan's situation in terms of passenger traffic and cargo trade isn't the same as it was when the 744s were being ordered.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air China Orders 30 Boeings On 3-1-2013

Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting na (Reply 47):
I wouldnt rule out the 748I in the longer term although I admit the chances are low at SQ.

When he was CEO of SQ, Chew Choon Seng publicly stated he had no interest in adding the 747-8 to the fleet because, and I quote, "that aircraft is based fundamentally on an airframe that is already 37 years old".

Now it is true he is no longer CEO and his successor might feel different, but I expect not.



Quoting na (Reply 47):
It remains to be seen how many passengers of JAL and ANA do experience and value the greater comfort available on the A380 and 748I of the competition.

You can put in the 777-300ER the same premium cabin hard product as you can the A380-800 and 747-8. Yes, the A380-800 is quieter overall (and so will be the 747-8 in First Class if you install additional sound insulation like LH did), but ambient noise is likely one of the lowest criteria customers choose from based on how the 777 did against the A340 and 747-400.

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