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euroflyer
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Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:43 am

According to several business newspapers in France, chances for the A350XWB to be displayed at the upcoming Paris Airshow 2013 are tiny.
Mainly due to delays from Spirit, the US supplier for central fuselage sections, the first ongoing A350 could miss the boat for the international show mid-june 2013.

About the probability for MSN001 not to be displayed, Airbus CEO Fabrice Brégier says "It's a possibility but not a probability,". "However, I agree that the first flight will not take place in Toulouse during the show," he added jokingly.

Do you think that Airbus could afford to miss the Paris Airshow 2013 in the current situation, and to postpone a display in Paris to june 2015, months after expected first deliveries ?
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KarelXWB
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:00 am

Airbus never made the promise to fly during the air show so I don't see the problem. I think France newspapers are looking for smoke where there is none.

Quote:
Mainly due to delays from Spirit, the US supplier for central fuselage sections, the first ongoing A350 could miss the boat for the international show mid-june 2013.

Those newspapers are mixing things up:

- Parts for MSN001 except the wings were always on time
- MSN003 is the one being late (2 months behind schedule)
- The delays were not caused by Spirit but due "late breaking changes"

Quoting euroflyer (Thread starter):
Do you think that Airbus could afford to miss the Paris Airshow 2013 in the current situation

Sure, why not? Airbus should not haste things but make sure they have everything correct for the first flight.
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:17 am

Quoting euroflyer (Thread starter):
Do you think that Airbus could afford to miss the Paris Airshow 2013 in the current situation

What "current situation"? Whether or not the A350 flies at Paris this year will make no difference to the program whatsoever.   
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:25 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
What "current situation"? Whether or not the A350 flies at Paris this year will make no difference to the program whatsoever.

As long they don't present an empty potemkin plastic tube à la August 7, 2007 with fasteners from the next nearby DIY market, it really doesn't matter.  

[Edited 2013-03-03 03:31:32]
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:27 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
- Parts for MSN001 except the wings were always on time
- MSN003 is the one being late (2 months behind schedule)
- The delays were not caused by Spirit but due "late breaking changes"

        

Quoting euroflyer (Thread starter):
Do you think that Airbus could afford to miss the Paris Airshow 2013 in the current situation

What Airbus could not (and should not) afford is to have more delays due to technical issues or an immature aircraft. And this is what they are focussing on, not the Air Show.

I think it's clear that the Air Show is the un-announced "nice to have" target, they are working hard to get it flying before June. But they're working harder on getting a mature aircraft out of Toulouse first.
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:32 am

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 3):
August 7, 2007

I suppose you meant July 8th, 2007?
 
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:47 am

Quoting 76er (Reply 5):
I suppose you meant July 8th, 2007?

Oh, yes – you're right!  

[Edited 2013-03-03 03:50:21]
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:51 am

Quoting euroflyer (Thread starter):
Do you think that Airbus could afford to miss the Paris Airshow 2013 in the current situation, and to postpone a display in Paris to june 2015, months after expected first deliveries ?

I think Airbus has learned a few valuable lessons over the years from themselves and the "other guys" across the Atlantic: stick to under promise and over deliver. The issues with the initial A380 production and the delays in the 787 program have suggested making a promise/assurance that can't be kept ends up backfiring badly.

Better to say "It's a possibility but not a probability" and not showing then saying it will happen and be left there with a 1:16 scale model and an over eager sales team getting lock jaw from smiling/grinning 24 hours a day.   
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 1):
Airbus never made the promise to fly during the air show so I don't see the problem.

However, Mr. Young of Rolls Royce made the following statement:

Quote:
"The engines are ready and capable to go to their limits from day one, should Airbus choose to do so," says Young. "The program - which we're fully supporting with our initial flight-compliant engines - has a very clear aim to make sure that first flight is prior to the Paris air show."

It is possible that Airbus is internally aiming for a first flight before the air show, but they are not promising anything to the outside world.
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:24 pm

My opinion:

- flying display: no way
- static display: hell no
- fly-by: hell yes

Following how the A350 is coming together in the production threads, I think first flight before Le Bourget is possible and realistic. Not much earlier, but maybe let's say late may or early june. If so, Airbus would definitely take the oportunity to make a fly-by at the show during one or two days, as the PR effect would be huge. The A350 would immediately afterwards return to TLS and not stay at the show, in order to not disrupt the flight test program. A flying display would not be possible as the flight envelope will not be suficiently opened by then.

Of course Airbus have never made any promise to that regard and should not - better to finish a mature aircraft a month after Le Bourget than force a Potemkin first flight for the show. But it's a big incentive and a great target to work towards for employees, and IMO Airbus will make use of the opportunity if the aircraft is ready by then.
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:57 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 9):
If so, Airbus would definitely take the oportunity to make a fly-by at the show during one or two days, as the PR effect would be huge.

Particularly if the 787 were still grounded at the time. A little hard to imagine on the one hand, yet we're already 1.5 months into the grounding and Le Bourget is only 3.5 months away. Let's hope it doesn't come to that and both aircraft can attend in one form or another... even just a fly-by would be fantastic.
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 9):
My opinion:

- flying display: no way
- static display: hell no
- fly-by: hell yes

That sounds plausible to me. Would be nice to see the A350-XWB flying at the Paris Air Show, but keeping the program on track is much more important.  
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 11):
That sounds plausible to me. Would be nice to see the A350-XWB flying at the Paris Air Show, but keeping the program on track is much more important.

Of course it's clearly the priority but I can assure you that sales and marketing are often very pushy towards production and engineering. I myself am a program lead-buyer in one of EADS company (not Airbus) and I can regularly see sales and marketing executives putting pressure on production in order to have products "ready" for international shows.
So, even if a display may not be considered, I think Airbus will make the possible to at least do a fly-by, yes.
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 9):
My opinion:

- flying display: no way
- static display: hell no
- fly-by: hell yes

My take: static display during first two or three "industry only" trade days. No fly by, no flying or static display thereafter.
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 13):
My take: static display during first two or three "industry only" trade days. No fly by, no flying or static display thereafter.

And stop the entire flighttest program??? (I expect that only MSN001 is flying by PAS2013)
No way!

I'm going with r2rho on this one, fly-by as an "unexpected visitor"
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

It would definitely be an incentive for me to go (not that I can buy planes), and like last time fake a professional reason to go during the industry days 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:38 pm

The A380 not only appeared at the 2005 Paris Airshow, it flew demo displays every trade day.

And that was less than 60 days after it first flew.

So it all depends on when then A350XWB flies - there's nothing stopping it making a headline appearance at the Airshow if it flies soon enough.
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:50 pm

How about flying the nose section of the A350XWB inside a Beluga, kill two birds with one stone, by having one and a half planes on display!
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:01 pm

If the A350 makes the Paris Airshow then that should be seen as a plus but it should not be seen as a priority. The priority for Airbus has got to be that they get it right the first time especially after seeing the mess Boeing is in with their 787 program.
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:14 pm

Quoting euroflyer (Thread starter):
Do you think that Airbus could afford to miss the Paris Airshow 2013 in the current situation, and to postpone a display in Paris to june 2015, months after expected first deliveries ?

They (Airbus) does not need to have it at the airshow in order to sell it. It would be nice to see it fly then or even see it built for the airshow but the aircraft will sell whether it is there or not.
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 18):

If the A350 makes the Paris Airshow then that should be seen as a plus but it should not be seen as a priority. The priority for Airbus has got to be that they get it right the first time especially after seeing the mess Boeing is in with their 787 program.


From the growing expectation on here, my fear is that it might be judged as some kind of failure on the part of Airbus if the A350 doesn't fly at Le Bourget when, in reality, it might be nice but was certainly not a goal of the program.

Having said that, the marketing and symbolism in having it fly whilst the Dreamliner remains grounded might prove to be an irrestible opportunity for Airbus to exploit.

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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting euroflyer (Thread starter):
Do you think that Airbus could afford to miss the Paris Airshow 2013 in the current situation, and to postpone a display in Paris to june 2015, months after expected first deliveries ?

They could always display in Farnborough before(?) first deliveries.

Quoting 76er (Reply 5):
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 3):
August 7, 2007

I suppose you meant July 8th, 2007?

I have always wondered why the US chose year/day/month format. Sorry if it has been asked before but what was the reason?
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:35 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 20):
From the growing expectation on here, my fear is that it might be judged as some kind of failure on the part of Airbus if the A350 doesn't fly at Le Bourget when, in reality, it might be nice but was certainly not a goal of the program.

I've only heard any mention of the possibility of it here on a.net. I doubt it is a problem for the airlines.

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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:57 pm

Quoting art (Reply 21):
Sorry if it has been asked before but what was the reason?

Not to get too far off topic, but I believe it comes from the way they say the date. I and most of the world would call today the 4th of March 2013. I have never heard an American say this, they would say today is March the 4th, 2013. So they write it the way they say it.

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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting art (Reply 21):

I have always wondered why the US chose year/day/month format.

We actually use month/day/year.

Quoting gemuser (Reply 23):
I have never heard an American say this, they would say today is March the 4th, 2013.

If I wrote today's date as 4 March, 2013 I would sound rather stuffy to most Americans (not to mention wrong on this side of the International Date Line   ).
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:53 am

Quoting moo (Reply 16):
So it all depends on when then A350XWB flies - there's nothing stopping it making a headline appearance at the Airshow if it flies soon enough.

True. But flight test should be cautious. Make sure it gets through a few stagegates. They could find a minor problem that grounds the plane pre-airshow and it will still meet schedule.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 20):
my fear is that it might be judged as some kind of failure on the part of Airbus if the A350 doesn't fly at Le Bourget when, in reality, it might be nice but was certainly not a goal of the program.

I doubt that. Airlines want a working plane, not a stunt. If its not there next year, we can talk like that.

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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:23 am

Well it'd be good for them if the A350 was there even if they didn't intend it initially.. Taking advantage of the fact that Boeing 787 programme is in the gutter now
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:50 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 22):
I've only heard any mention of the possibility of it here on a.net. I doubt it is a problem for the airlines.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
I doubt that. Airlines want a working plane, not a stunt. If its not there next year, we can talk like that.

Which is why I clearly said:

[quote]From the growing expectation on here"

I made no reference to airlines whatsoever. The comment was because, apart from the RR article, a.net is the only place I have seen mention of the A350 flying at Le Bourget.

It was merely an observation that some folk on here are getting themselves into a frenzy of anticipation that the A350 might fly at Le Bourget; if it doesn't, the usual A v B bashers will be out in force to take advantage of a "failure" which never was.      

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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:27 pm

Going slightly off topic here, but speaking of Paris Air Show 2013, I've been trying to find a list of flying displays that will be appearing at the general public days. It seems the official web page is quite vague and google didnt help me to find what i want.

I'm trying to determine if it's worth going to the airshow in June.
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
True. But flight test should be cautious. Make sure it gets through a few stagegates. They could find a minor problem that grounds the plane pre-airshow and it will still meet schedule.

Oh, I'm not saying they should push for the airshow to the detriment of the test regime, I was more pointing out that the A380 both appeared and flew, although it only flew with wheels down (it still hadn't cleared for gear retraction in anything other than straight and level flight at that point, and the flight demo kept it over the display area so it didn't have the right length of time to be able to retract the gear in).

So, in my mind, if it appears at all at this years Paris Airshow, it won't be in anything other than a flying role. No need for it to be on static only.
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:41 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 27):
a.net is the only place I have seen mention of the A350 flying at Le Bourget.

   So like others, I would like to see the talk 'mellowed out.' It could happen, but I consider the probability less than 50/50.

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 27):
It was merely an observation that some folk on here are getting themselves into a frenzy of anticipation that the A350 might fly at Le Bourget; if it doesn't, the usual A v B bashers will be out in force to take advantage of a "failure" which never was.

That we may agree on. Here is to just being enthusiasts!   

Quoting moo (Reply 29):
So, in my mind, if it appears at all at this years Paris Airshow, it won't be in anything other than a flying role. No need for it to be on static only.

I hope to see it fly. Just understand I won't consider that a requirement for any 'value' of the A350. There is time to make it happen, but I would personally be cautious for there is much to loose and little to gain.

I see why Airbus flew the A380, it helped stop rumors of more and more delays (that happened anyway...). I do not see such an urgency with the A350.

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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:12 pm

Tom Enders says it won't happen:

"#Airbus #A350 first flight will be July or Aug, EADS CEO Enders tells reporters in NYC. In time for Paris? Would take a "miracle," he says."
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 31):

What does QR CEO Al Baker say? He seems to claim more knowledge about Airbus internals than Airbus themselves, so what's his take on it?
 
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:36 pm

Mr Baker said nothing about the first flight.
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RE: Paris Airshow 2013 : A350 Or Not?

Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:39 pm

Give it time, give it time...